14 ms·
To the "I wish HN would stay out of politics" crew. You can stay out of politics, but politics will always come and find you.
by 4ndrewl 2y ago
To the "I wish HN would stay out of politics" crew.
You can stay out of politics, but politics will always come and find you.
- pif 2y agoThere's politics and there are facts. Trump voters are stupid. This is a fact. Right or left leaning, that's politics.
- OhioMan2943 2y agoEverything is political now by design. It's meant to reach into every facet of society and community and restructure it.
- Braxton1980 2y agoEverything was always political. Laws, the economy, conflcit. How is any person not affected by these? The government is responsible for all or a large part of how a country functions. People who say "I'm not political" are deflecting to avoid conflict
- OhioMan2943 2y agoI mean I think The Republican Incumbent was chosen specifically as a tool because he is so extreme, pervasive and demoralising and creeps into everything. Definitely by Russia, maybe also by our "friend" in the ME. Although it's not that reported on they are on friendly terms. Disaffection lends itself easily to creating a Russia-style society. This all feels pretty Dugin-esque, and his proposition (return to values, reject interest/hope in politics because it is always flawed anyway, bind together under the state) fits perfectly, and is finding prominence at the perfect time. Just my opinion, but to me this seems far more akin to Dugin than whatever Curtis Yavin is pushing
- ndr42 2y agoWhat is "ME" referring to?
- NikkiA 2y ago"Middle East" is the usual expansion, and fits in context here.
- HelloNurse 2y agoThe "friend" could be Israel or some person like Mohammed bin Salman.
- NikkiA 2y agoGiven the treatment for supporters of gaza, almost certainly Netting-yahoo
- darkwater 2y ago> People who say "I'm not political" are deflecting to avoid conflict A great truth. Even isolating yourself from society like a hermit is still a political decision: you are rejecting society as it is, and prefer to live in your own solo society. That's politics.
- computerthings 2y ago[dead]
- dcow 2y agoI don’t think that’s totally accurate. If I live as a hermit but perform my civic duties like voting and paying any taxes, I don’t see how choosing to live in solitude is anything more than a lifestyle choice.
- Braxton1980 2y agoI don't think he was saying it's more than a lifestyle choice just that your still involved, a non action is an action.
- fc417fc802 2y ago> Even isolating yourself from society like a hermit is still a political decision That is a nonsensical definition of that term. It implies that literally any action you take falls into the set "political" instead of outside of it. That defeats the purpose of the term. The point of qualifiers is to differentiate between different sorts of things. Obviously the intention of the person using such a term is to distinguish between things. Thus such a rebuttal amounts to intellectual dishonesty by intentionally misinterpreting what was said.
- perching_aix 2y agoWhen this is discussed, what's being meant is that everday party politics are spilling out and overwhelming a project's or industry's individual, internal politics, which are often a completely disconnected meta. Appealing to "well everything is connected" I'm not sure is useful. It's interesting from a semantics perspective the first few times you come across it maybe, then swaps around into being plain frustrating, then lands on just missing the point. Finally, I think people who want to stay out of said party political meta I think are doing a pretty big favor to their mental health, and I really can't fault them one bit for it. No coincidence either.
- noelwelsh 2y agoTwo things: "Party politics" is ill-defined, and so a "no politics" rule becomes an arbitrary hammer that bosses can use to smash employees. If I say "I'm going to get a COVID vaccine this afternoon" is that discussing party politics? In the UK, where I live, the vaccine was provided by the government, so I'm implicitly discussing the actions of the government. That is under any reasonable definition a discussion of politics. "everyday party politics are spilling out and overwhelming a project's or industry's individual, internal politics" is how "no politics" rules are usually justified, but this was not what happened in the poster child cases of implementing "no politics" rules (37signals, Coinbase). 37signals in particular tried to spin it this way, but it was the actions of a group within the company approved by the founders that caused the problem. (Coinbase was just completely incoherent from the start. Their mission is something like "End economic inequality" which a reasonable person could take to mean anarchist or communist discussion is on topic.)
- graemep 2y agoThe covid vaccine example is a good one in terms of something in everyday life that is politicised. It is also illustrates the problem with discussing politics in an international forum. The KCL study of covid conspiracy theories (carried out during the pandemic) found that in the UK young people and those who identified as left wing were more likely to believe conspiracy theories. I am pretty sure this is significantly different from the US. Also matches things I have heard (e.g. my daughter met people at university who refused the vaccine because "we don't trust the Tories". It is pretty common for Americans to assume that the Conservatives are equivalent to Republicans, and Labour are like the Democrats, which is very far from the truth. It has always been far from the truth but the reasons why change - e.g. in the 80s Thatcher and Reagan were not far apart, but that that time Labour were far to the left of the Democrats (actual socialists).
- juliendorra 2y agoAlternatively people who say “I’m not political” are benefiting from the status quo and political direction of things (long term, not necessarily short term). They frame inaction as apolitical.
- fc417fc802 2y agoIt is apolitical for any reasonable definition of the term "political". That doesn't mean you don't benefit, or that it's a responsible choice, or anything else. It just means you aren't engaging in political activity - attempting to convince those around you, to gain influence, etc.
- InsideOutSanta 2y agoOne of the benefits a working democracy conveys to its citizens is that they largely don't have to care about politics. They can trust that government action is relatively consistent over time, that laws will be enforced fairly enough, that their property will be protected to a reasonable degree, that the currency will be reasonably stable, that the roads will be maintained, that some public transport will be available, that sudden wars won't erupt around them, and so on. That's what makes working democracies successful. But it seems that it also makes democracies vulnerable because people don't realize they have these benefits because they live in a working democracy. They start to think these benefits have nothing to do with politics and are just the way things are, like the laws of nature.
- demosito666 2y agoInterestingly, I believe that the reality is exactly the opposite: on the political regimes' spectrum of democratic -> authoritarian -> totalitarian only the middle one doesn't require people's participation. Both democracy and totalitarism need to be actively maintained by significant part of the population, otherwise they converge to the "natural" state of things - authoritarian order. None of the stuff you listed (fair laws, property rights, etc.) occur naturally once it has been set up at some point in past. That's why they talk about "checks and balances" all the time, and they are impossible without active participation.
- pjc50 2y agoWhat distinction are you making between authoritarian and totalitarian here?
- demosito666 2y agoI think the most significant distinction is exactly that: Authoritarian - leaves people alone in general as long as they stay out of politics. Examples: 90% of regimes throughout human history. Almost all post-soviet countries, almost all of Middle East and Africa, Singapore, etc. Totalitarian - forces people into actively participating in leader's political goals and penetrates the daily life. North Korea, USSR, Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy.
- Cthulhu_ 2y agoEverything already was, you just didn't recognize it because it was to your benefit / in your interests.
- paganel 2y agoAgree, but it goes both ways, with technology (that many of us here have helped create and maintain) also reaching out into every facet of society and community, many times in close symbiosis with the political powers that be, to the detriment of said society and community. Not 100% sure what I wanted to say, maybe that said politics (and the political as a whole) wouldn't have invaded almost our entire lives without the help of technology.
- po1nt 2y agoThat's because we got reliant on the funds from government. Maybe it's time to break the dependency.
- jocaal 2y ago> That's because we got reliant on the funds from government Not we, some people got reliant on the funds from government. It is always at the cost of someone else. The tax the rich and bourgeoisie mentality is what led to Mao Zedong and Stalin, but no-one wants to learn about history anymore.
- Moomoomoo309 2y agoTax the rich mentality also led to the "golden age of capitalism" of the 1940s, 50s, and 60s. The tax rates on the wealthiest in the US at that time were huge, and that money went into job programs, housing assistance programs, construction projects, etc.
- mrguyorama 2y agoStalin and Mao were both cults of personality being driven by a young, disaffected population who were so sick and tired of the status quo that they were willing to murder and burn and kill and destroy and didn't really care about what came after. That should sound very familiar right about now.
- okeuro49 2y ago"You can stay out of politics, but politics will always come and find you." No, it's just recognising that it is silly to talk about politics, as certain views are just downvoted.
- spookie 2y agoOf all places I find this one the most shielded from this behavior as long as you're civil.
- goku12 2y agoIt's true that HN insists on and respects civil behavior. But HN doesn't always remain impartial in terms of downvotes, flagging and removal of comments when it comes to some topics that are inherently political. There was one such overtly political thread recently where some of the opposing comments were flagged and removed. Those comments were not even as inflammatory as the news article itself. It indicates that HN does have a majority political bias that they're not hesitant to impose up on the discourse. I'm not going to go into specifics of the topic because I don't want to start another episode, though I do have the complaint that such actions distort the discourse unfairly to one side. And I also understand that political biases are human nature and that they can never be fully eliminated. But at the same time, it would be harmful to pretend that the discourse on HN is apolitical, balanced or that it shields you from that sort of censorship. Imagine making a good-faith counterargument, only to have it flagged and removed because the opposition doesn't like it. And when asked, you get cited a point in the CoC, except that it's not applied uniformly and impartially in that thread. Makes you wonder what the purpose of flagging is at all! That will just put certain groups at an undisclosed disadvantage and lets harmful stereotypes flourish without any challenge. All we can do is to be forthright about this fact and try our best to have a civil debate.
- dmckeon 2y agoPeople trying to ignore politics are like fish trying to ignore water.
- strogonoff 2y agoNot talking about politics is itself a political position (in favor of status quo).
- stingraycharles 2y agoDepends. We’re a small, very international startup and have a super strict “no politics” policy. Politics and work are not a good combination when you’re employing people from all over the world. But I would not consider it a political statement to adopt this policy.
- noelwelsh 2y agoYour statements are incoherent. Politics is decision making and power relationships within groups of people. It is 100% a political statement to adopt this policy as it exercises power over a group. You cannot function as a group without politics. "Where do y'all want to go for lunch" is also politics, as it involves group decision making and power relationships (Do you go to the vegetarian place? Do you avoid the spicy place?) It's a completely banal decision but it is still politics. If what you want is a "don't piss off your coworkers by discussing topics unrelated to work that you know will annoy people" policy, that is fine, but don't pretend you are not engaging in politics.
- concordDance 2y ago"Politics" is a stupid word because everyone has a different idea about what it means and so they all talk past each other.
- strogonoff 2y agoThe word “politics” is vague, and that only makes banning political discussions worse if it only becomes political when the higher-ups don’t like it. Say your company has a possibility of working with some client company who is directly or indirectly involved with cause X. If it is “political” to talk about not working with them because of X, but it is “not political” to talk about working with them, then you see what I mean. It doesn’t have to be a destructive conversation: one employee might say we should avoid them, but you might say we need to work with them because we need the money now and can drop them later when we are in a better place. Other employees could talk how cause X is not that unethical for reasons. If someone balks at a point of view incompatible with theirs and is incapable of expressing a viewpoint in a way that respects other views, maybe that someone is not mature enough and next time your HR can avoid that type.
- cantrecallmypwd 2y agoYep. It's also true of people who think they can simply move out of the US and that "solves" the problem too. America's problems are still (almost) everyone's problems too.
- goku12 2y agoTrue. But it's much less of a problem outside. For example, does the gun culture in the US affect the rest of the world? It sure does. You can guess where most of the illegal weapons come from. But we rarely even think about getting shot while at school or on our way to the groceries.
- blueflow 2y agoThe problem is not political topics, it is how people discuss them.
- titaphraz 2y agoThat's a massive issue. Every topic is so polarized that it's as if it's evil vs. good. But I think people are waking up, because things they took as non-political god given right is being made political and taken away.
- titaphraz 2y agoIt's exhausting because of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firehose_of_falsehood https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firehose_of_falsehood
- h1fra 2y agoHN and founders will say "no politics here" on the regulated internet, drinking regulated water, eating regulated food, breathing regulated air.
- pjc50 2y agoApart from the few maniacs On Here who seek out the unregulated intentionally. Raw milk (all those tasty diseases). "Research chemicals" (don't hear so much about that lately, but there were whole microdosing fads).
- franktankbank 2y agoRaw milk is delicious, my ancestors have been drinking it for millennia.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- chillingeffect 2y agoAnd we enjoyed our milkborne tuberculosis, typhoid, scarlet fever, diphtheria, and septic sore throat thoroughly, too. The risks actually doubled the joys. Why does a supposedly enlightened society step all over my right to choose which eliminated diseases to bring back?
- pixl97 2y agoOooh, ooh, oh, don't forget the brucellosis either. But hey, I only get to enjoy this if the measles here in Texas don't get me first.
- user_7832 2y agoIsn't this literally survivorship bias? Those who died early wouldn't have had offspring. 1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
- scandox 2y agoWhat people mean when they say this is that they don't want to engage in party political and/or tribal political discussions. They don't want to do this because it just means rehearsing talking points. People are not dumb. They know that politics is everywhere but they want to live and love and talk about things that are interesting.
- gedy 2y agoExactly, and on the flip side many people who want to "talk politics" mainly want to shout at the outgroup and pick public fights.
- belorn 2y agoI view the archive.org, Wikipedia, CVE program, and Linux Kernel to all have had discussions on HN about how to they should be funded. Is that kind of politics the kind that people wish that HN stayed out from?
- diogocp 2y agoNo, but the "everything is political" people are not capable of making that distinction. Which is probably why everything seems political to them.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago> that distinction What is the distinction?
- mintplant 2y ago[flagged]
- atmosx 2y agoThis quote is essentially unworkable. Everything you say, or choose not to say, inevitably advances some political perspective over another. What we should really aim for is thoughtful, civilized, and maybe even aesthetically pleasing discourse. That’s what educated people strive for. Trying to “avoid politics” is like collecting seashells while a tsunami is rolling in.
- surgical_fire 2y agoAgreed. Those who don't care about politics are doomed to be ruled by those who care. Moreover, avoiding politics is impossible. It's all around you. Labor, entertainment, food, housing. Burying your head in the sand will only get you to have your ass in the air. Maybe "be polite" should be a better rule than "avoid politics".
- cjs_ac 2y agoIt's scary how widely this varies between different communities. On Reddit, /r/politics is mostly people acting like they're auditioning for the writers' room on one of those late-night talk shows, whereas /r/ukpolitics and /r/australianpolitics are almost exclusively people making insightful, analytic comments.
- atmosx 2y agoOh really? I will check all of them, thanks for the hints!
- elcritch 2y ago> The ancient Greek understanding of an “idiot” referred to someone who was a private citizen or a person who did not actively participate in public life or politics.
- spacebanana7 2y agoTo play devil's advocate - it's horrible when gaming, programming, business or even porn forums get overrun by politics. It's not that the political topics are unimportant but all my feeds just end up looking the same as each other and the same as a newspaper app. I hate election nights because of this.
- MiguelX413 2y ago[flagged]
- eertami 2y agoI think it's a stretch to suggest _all_ are, I'm not sure I could believe that a game like Super Hexagon is political. Would it be political to paint the tree in your backyard, or to draw a picture of your cat?
- jdiff 2y agoWhile I have absolutely no idea what the politics of Super Hexagon could be framed as, with regards to the paintings, yes. Having a tree, having a backyard, having a pet (or a cat specifically), these aren't universal across cultures and ideologies and can carry slight, subtle, political messages. Politics don't have to be intentional. You could say that this is having political implications rather than carrying a political message, but the politics are still lurking in there all the same.
- Titan2189 2y ago"porn forums" is a thing?
- 7bit 2y agoAbsolutely
- amarcheschi 2y agoi would be surprised otherwise
- keybored 2y agoApolitical person: Ugh politics is so dumb Same person: Why is the world organized in such a dumb way?
- pjmlp 2y agoTechnology without politics is a pipe dream, even the FOSS licenses depend on politics.
- bamboozled 2y ago100% agree, staying out of politics has been a luxury not everyone has, it's totally unavoidable now.
- mrtksn 2y agoThe problem with discussing politics is that it gives you the kicks. Its very easy to get into a feedback loop and take things quite far off civility. I am also guilty of it, many times. IMHO there needs to be a mechanism for breaking the loop and then we can have civil online political discussions. Unfortunately most places just ban it or ban those who got into the loop, either way its ugly. IRL when discussing politics and things don't go badly its thanks to 3rd party who will moderate or calm down the heated debaters.
- kelsey98765431 2y agoNo thank you. I am absolutely uninterested in civil discussions with people who literally want to kill me and deport my good friends to guantanamo bay cuba. When you accept nazism you throw the concept of civil discourse out the window.
- mrtksn 2y agoSee, its unlikely that its those people that you meet online and you won't be able to do anything to them anyway. %99.999 of the time its usually trolls or people with good intentions(with wrong solutions based on wrong information or understanding of the situation). Trolls can be fun when they play with hypothetical scenarios and edge cases, conducting thought experiments. You are also unlikely to change the views of the people with good intentions through discussion but they are very useful to understand what their motives so you can develop beter arguments or solutions. Also, you might find out that on some issues you are one of those with good intentions(but misguided understanding of the situation).
- bluGill 2y agoCase in point: you have decided that those who disagree with you want to kill you, deport your friend, and are otherwise nazis. While a minority do, that isn't the majority.
- mulnz 2y agoI am (un)lucky enough to live in an area where I don't have to decide this. People are willing to say it out loud.
- deadbabe 2y agoNot keeping politics out of our lives is the reason we’ve ended up with a totalitarian fascist dictatorship. If politics is forbidden, people have to just make up their own minds and vote for what makes sense to them, instead of banding together and slowly intensifying to the most radical extremes in bids to outdo each other. Everytime you discuss politics on the internet, you entrench the current administration.
- timacles 2y agoFascinating logic. The victims are at fault. If only they did something different the abusers would have never had to abuse them.
- throwanem 2y agoI understand how you get here, but you haven't considered what would be required in practice to "forbid politics." Banning speech would be where you would have to start, and by the time you were finished Walter Freeman might grow a bit faint.
- throwanem 2y agoOh, excuse me, I see you have considered it. There is a class of cautionary advice I reserve for such situations, but you are obviously well past the reach of that or any other reliable counsel, and I'll bear this in mind henceforward.
- Pxtl 2y ago> the "I wish HN would stay out of politics" crew. Sadly, this crew includes the site's moderation.
- mardifoufs 2y agoah yes, losing the... CVE database is truly the wake up call to get engaged in politics. I mean sorry but I'm not sure if you're being ironic. It sounds like something you'd read on ngate
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- orblivion 2y agoHN can stay out of politics just fine for the most part. If a political topic comes into tech we can talk about it then, and stay out of other crap that insufferable people drag in because "there's no such thing as being neutral" or whatever.