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If you've read history, this rhymes with certain acts that have happened before under certain regimes. Under a non-authoritarian Government, this type of showbo
by areoform 2y ago
If you've read history, this rhymes with certain acts that have happened before under certain regimes. Under a non-authoritarian Government, this type of showboating can be dismissed, but when habeas corpus and the right to due process is suspended — such actions take on a very different cast indeed.
It's good that Harvard is fighting this. The more people accede, the more they will accelerate down a path where there is no coming back from.
- ghusto 2y agoThe point of no return is Trump getting a third term. The parallels are strong there. I was just thinking this morning that we very much needed the USA's help fighting Nazi Germany, but who will we turn to when we're fighting fascists coming from the East _and_ West? (Russia and the USA)
- School-Cotton 2y agoWhat is your definition of "fascists"? Edit to explain my point, because I'm getting downvoted (which I don't care about, but I _do_ care if people don't understand my point): fascism was a specific ideology/movement in the 20th century that, other than being right-wing and authoritarian, doesn't bear much resemblance to right-wing authoritarianism today: they have different goals, different motives, promote different policies, etc. It seems people just use "fascism" as a synonym for "destructive right-wing populism" or even just "bad". And I agree that things like the MAGA movement, or AfD in Germany, ARE bad, and one could even argue that they are just as bad as historical fascism. But I don't think we should use "fascism" in this way, because it gives ammo to your opponents: the supporters of these right-wing movements can point out that indeed, they are not the same as historical fascism and make you look silly.
- vel0city 2y agoThe opening passage of the Wikipedia article: Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right [checks box], authoritarian [ignoring courts decisions, sending people to prisons without any due process; check], and ultranationalist [MAGA, american exceptionalism, etc; check] political ideology and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader [do I really need to explain; check], centralized autocracy [feckless GOP congress, EOs left and right; check], militarism, forcible suppression of opposition [J6, anyone? also see Maine and TFA and the law firms being blacklisted and more; check], belief in a natural social hierarchy [pro-life, shrouded in "traditional family values", anti-gay, anti-trans, etc; check], subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation or race [tariffs, massive deportations without due process, etc; check], and strong regimentation of society and the economy [bathroom bills, tariff policies with exceptions for those who bribe him with million dollar dinner purchases, etc; check]. Tell me how this doesn't fit?
- mariusor 2y agoI feel like most people that are using the term deliberately, are doing so based on reasoning close to Umberto Eco's "Ur-fascism" essay: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fascism https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fasci... If you want something more modern, someone made a tracker: https://www.realtimefascism.com/ https://www.realtimefascism.com/ The tracker uses "the 14 characteristics of fascism identified by Dr. Lawrence Britt" (which is slightly different): https://osbcontent.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/PC-00466.pdf https://osbcontent.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/PC-00466.pdf
- pqtyw 2y ago> historical fascism I mean.. Mussolini's Italy or 30s Austria weren't exactly Nazi Germany. So while there still might be some way to go the comparison is not that extreme. Equating Trump with Hitler is of course a stretch. Mussolini however? Well..
- ghusto 2y agoI get what you mean, and I understand the frustration. We should be more careful with words for exactly the reason you say at the end. Having said that, the reason I chose to use it here was because I felt it was time, i.e. it has finally become earned. I could defend the usage with anyone who brought that up (and someone's done a thorough job in one of the replies).
- worik 2y ago> who will we turn to when we're fighting fascists coming from the East _and_ West? (Russia and the USA) Like a heart attack can be good for your health,perhaps this USA withdrawal will be good for Europe. (If Europe is what you mean)
- legitster 2y ago[flagged]
- mtoner23 2y agothere's no need to defend any good things the nazis did to germany
- ceejayoz 2y agoThe good things (and the promises of more) are what make them compelling for a while. Fascism is appealing because top-down directives from an absolute leader can work… for a bit. Eventually you run out of the low hanging fruit that can be messed with by executive fiat, and then you have to find enemies to blame.
- skyyler 2y agoReminds me of the venerable Dril: issuing correction on a previous post of mine, regarding the terror group ISIL. you do not, under any circumstances, 'gotta hand it to them.'
- legitster 2y agoApologies. Did by no means try to mean it as a compliment to the Nazis - I just intended it as a comparison to help explain the justification at the time.
- oblio 2y agoNope, it didn't. The Nazis started a war economy almost immediately and yes, they hiked employment, but the Nazi economy was boom or bust. They couldn't sustain it long term without the war.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> At least the Nazi party created a strong economy in Germany This is a myth. Wages of Destruction [1] details the Nazis’ autarkic economic incompetence. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wages_of_Destruction https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wages_of_Destruction
- bilbo0s 2y agoThe point of no return is Trump getting a third term That's a little alarmist. It's not going to happen. Things are close to going off the rails and people are understandably troubled with the direction in which the US government is headed. I am as well. But we all need to start turning down the temperature a bit.
- mtoner23 2y agoHow did that work the last 10 times we said the things trump wants to do aren't gonna happen. He's saying he will so we should believe him https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/04/trump-third-term-republicans/682381/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/04/trump-t... https://www.foxnews.com/media/trump-going-run-third-term-steve-bannon-tells-bill-maher https://www.foxnews.com/media/trump-going-run-third-term-ste...
- allturtles 2y agoWhy do you consider it alarmist? Trump has repeatedly said he would do it, and that he's "not joking" about it.
- 9283409232 2y agoI have had to listen to people like you for almost 10 years talk about things Trump said that were never going to happen. At what point do you just accept the evidence of your eyes and ears?
- selectodude 2y agoNone of the rest of the stuff happening was going to happen either, I’m sure. Legal residents are being kidnapped and disappeared into foreign gulags but let’s turn down the temperature, right?
- ziddoap 2y agoThe number of times I've read people say "That's alarmist and will never happen", just to see that exact thing happen, is a lot.
- Latty 2y agoPeople keep saying this about everything the admin does before they do it. Pretending it won't happen won't stop it happening. The real question is, who is left to stop it? The man is saying he's not joking about it. It's in line with his previous actions. They have actively refused to comply with court orders. They actively tried to reject the results of an election. Why is it alarmist to say they may do the thing they want to do, and can do?
- pcthrowaway 2y ago[flagged]
- bluGill 2y agoThere is no evidence Trump has dementia. That is something his detracted unfairly say as if it is true, but there is no reason to think it is. I don't like him either, but that doesn't mean I will say unfair things about him.
- pcthrowaway 2y agoI was speaking in probabilities, not making a judgment myself (I wouldn't be qualified to do so anyway). Numerous mental health professionals have made the assertion that he is, and he has a family history of it, so at the very least it can't reasonably be claimed with 100% certainty that he's not in the early-to-mid stages of dementia. Furthermore, my statement was very clearly presented as a massive stretch in the first place; noting that it might slightly increase the chance that he'll be unable to make an attempt at a third term (even if by 0.01%). Sometimes squinting hard enough that the resulting bokeh resemble a silver lining is all you can do to muster hope.
- bluGill 2y agoStatistically at his age he has a 25% chance of dieing before his term ends.
- epolanski 2y agoThe point of no return was January 6th 2021! Once Americans pardoned an attempt by the sitting president to overthrow US democracy the game's over. America desperately needs a huge revision to the powers conceded to individuals and should instead mature to a slower, maybe less effective at times, but stronger democracy that nurtures parliamentary debate and discourse.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> Once Americans pardoned an attempt by the sitting president to overthrow US democracy it's over already By this logic it was “over already” at the end of the Civil War. Suspending habeus corpus, ignoring the courts and then meeting with public indifference will be the point of no return. Trump’s third term would just be the canary passing out.
- ceejayoz 2y ago> By this logic it was “over already” at the end of the Civil War. That may be true. The North won the war, but let the ideology that caused it fester.
- shadowgovt 2y agoI think people frequently forget that the North didn't actually have the firepower to stamp out the ideology. Like any ideology, you can't actually destroy it with force any other way than burning books and, eventually, men. And whether or not that would have been wise: the war was extremely costly for the North and there was a non-zero chance that if they started dropping every third Southerner from the gallows the federal government would lose legitimacy in the eyes of the survivors on both sides of the Mason-Dixon and that'd be it.
- outer_web 2y agoIt could have been water under the bridge if we simply did not re-elect him. But now we have a second term emboldened by de facto total immunity.
- repeekad 2y ago$9 billion dollars from the federal government to Harvard equates to nearly $30 per American, that is an ignorant amount of money for a single academic institution, surely the world isn't so black and white that we can have a conversation about how much money is leaking out of our tax dollars without it always coming back to "fascism"?
- ceejayoz 2y ago> $9 billion dollars from the federal government to Harvard equates to nearly $30 per American… Now do what it gets them.
- repeekad 2y agogiven my comment got railroaded instantly, this is clearly what everyone thinks, but let's at least have that conversation rather than blindly pumping money into academia while local schools can't even afford books
- ceejayoz 2y agoThe people who want to hurt Harvard also want to hurt the local schools.
- repeekad 2y agothis is identity politics, rather than discussing ideas we discuss whose ideas they are and whether we like that person, I don't like that kind of discourse and don't find it valuable, bad people can have good ideas and vice versa edit: that being said, I agree what's happening to harvard is in bad faith and has nothing to do with making the government more efficient, so my argument isn't good
- TimorousBestie 2y agoIt’s not identity politics to observe that the dilemma you presented (public funding for universities xor local schools) is false.
- cm2187 2y ago[flagged]
- skyyler 2y ago[flagged]
- AlexandrB 2y agoI agree, each UK citizen is infused with the original sin of being a colonizer and their opinion should be discarded until they purge this sin from their bodies through appropriate cleansing rituals. Perhaps some form of self-flagelation or bloodletting?
- cm2187 2y agoAnd don't forget people who like me are in the UK but weren't born there.
- skyyler 2y agoGoodness gracious. Invoking religious self-harm imagery in response to mild criticism feels wildly out of pocket. Do you genuinely think anti-colonial activism demands this or anything even resembling this of post-colonial states? It feels like a really silly way to deflect from the concept that maybe average UK citizens do benefit in some way from their colonial past.
- AlexandrB 2y agoDo you not find it out of pocket that you made a judgement about the validity of someone's opinion based on their (not even birth) nationality? Is there anything they could say or do to make their opinion worth listening to?
- skyyler 2y ago> Is there anything they could say or do to make their opinion worth listening to? That’s the thing, I didn’t say their opinion isn’t worth listening to or consideration in general. Acknowledging bias isn’t the same as discarding opinion.
- outer_web 2y agoHabeas corpus - still in effect unless you're already in El Salvador.
- adamc 2y agoAlthough the president was caught on mic musing about deporting American citizens.
- throw__away7391 2y agoNot caught, he held a press conference and announced that he was going to try to do it.
- throw__away7391 2y agoActually I stand corrected--he was ALSO caught on tape with a much more chilling version of this statement.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> Although the president was caught on mic musing about deporting American citizens The canaries in our coal mine are permanent residents. Anything that can legally be done to a permanent resident can basically be done to a "bad" citizen. Trump is trying to run roughshod over permanent residents' habeus corpus rights. Courts are currently pushing back; I expect he will defy them. That, for me, will be the line at which I'll start helping with civil disruption.
- andrepd 2y agoIt was very depressing (if financially understandable) to see other institutions immediately caving in.
- 9283409232 2y agoWhat institutions other than Columbia are caving in?
- JumpCrisscross 2y agoEvery law firm.
- 9283409232 2y agoEvery law firm is hyperbole but I meant what other universities other than Columbia?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> Every law firm is hyperbole How? Which major law firm is standing up like Harvard is? > I meant what other universities other than Columbia? Trump has only really gone after Columbia and Harvard. (Institution is a broader word than university.)
- Anechoic 2y agoHow? Which major law firm is standing up like Harvard is? WilerHale and Jenner & BLock are two: https://www.npr.org/2025/03/28/g-s1-56890/law-firms-sue-trump https://www.npr.org/2025/03/28/g-s1-56890/law-firms-sue-trum...
- 9283409232 2y ago> How? Which major law firm is standing up like Harvard is? Perkins Coie, Covington & Burling LLP, and Elias Law Group are fighting Trump's executive order. Those are 3 of the biggest law firms in the US. As far as I know only two major firms have made deals with Trump while many are sitting quiet but not everyone is cowering.
- FloorEgg 2y agoDid you read the letter sent from the government to Harvard?
- esrauch 2y agoI did; it explicitly demanding an audit of employees and students political views, the forced hiring of more professors who are sympathetic to the current administration's politics. That doesn't sound authoritarian to you? Can you imagine if Obama had demanded that any university do an ideological purge of its conservative staff and students?
- BuckRogers 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- nineplay 2y agoWhat specifical threat to our nation are they trying to defend against?
- BuckRogers 2y ago[flagged]
- pqtyw 2y agoWell yes.. an attempt by pseudo-fascists to takeover universities and other public institutions is indeed a matter of national security.
- ziddoap 2y agoYou only used one of the magical thought-stopping phrases. You're supposed to say that it will help the children too.
- 2y ago
- ren_engineer 2y agothese types of moves wouldn't be possible in the first place if these institutions hadn't spent decades burning their own credibility. They even mention Alzheimer's research in this post, something that has literally wasted billions of taxpayer dollars due to an academic cartel shutting down anybody trying to expose the fact that they were completely wrong about amyloid plaques
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> if these institutions hadn't spent decades burning their own credibility They burned their credibility among those with whom they never needed it in the first place. Harvard as a taxpayer-funded institution is oxymoronic. Return it to an elite institution that the President can commend in private and mock at a rally in rural Kentucky or whatnot.
- derektank 2y ago>They burned their credibility among those with whom they never needed it in the first place. I think universities should probably be concerned with their credibility among democratically elected political representatives if they are going to be accepting public funds. If the university wants to forgo federal grants, then yes, they don't require any credibility with anyone but academia and their donors, and more power to them.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> universities should probably be concerned with their credibility among democratically elected political representatives if they are going to be accepting public funds Agree. I don’t think they should accept federal funds to the extent that they do. Maybe it’s time for elite institutions to get past the 70s camp era and start behaving (and wielding the power of) being elite.
- kelipso 2y agoIt’s current year. They might hobble along for a few years without federal funding but they need federal funding to keep their academic reputation and be elite institutions.
- quotemstr 2y ago[flagged]
- morleytj 2y agoSo you're fine with them arresting dissenters as long as you disagree with the dissenters? That's fairly antithetical to the ideas expressed in the US constitution.
- quotemstr 2y agoI'm fine with stopping the flow of federal money to people who hate me in particular and who take a salary to convince others to do so too. Those who defend the conduct of universities need to pause and consider that the public has noticed the radicalization of academia, despises it, and will support state action to reverse it.
- __loam 2y agoThey hate you because you're a useful idiot, not because of your skin color, for the record.
- monkey_monkey 2y agoWhich people do you think "hate you in particular"? Why do they hate you - what have you done to them?
- morleytj 2y agoWho hates you in particular? What do you mean by that? Also, that's fine to have a conversation about funding, but it's fairly different from arrests, deportations, and shipping individuals to foreign prisons. Rather motte and bailey to earlier suggest that the government was going to go "Henry VII" on universities, and then say that you just want to change funding. These are very different positions.
- pqtyw 2y agoWell you claimed they are violating "the fourteenth amendment" which hardly makes sense. How could they be doing that? Is Harvard a Government agency? A state unto itself?
- fitsumbelay 2y agoFYI habeas corpus has been under attack by GOP administrations for nearly a quarter of a century - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus_in_the_United_States#Habeas_corpus_in_the_21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habeas_corpus_in_the_United_St...
- squigz 2y ago> the more they will accelerate down a path where there is no coming back from. Why do you say this? At practically every point in history where a government or dictator goes too far, we've come back from it.
- wutwutwat 2y agoEveryone recovers from a sickness. Until they don't.
- shadowgovt 2y agoSure... As a different government. I assume parent is talking about the functional end of this iteration of the United States as a political entity.
- mcphage 2y ago> we've come back from it We as a species have come back from it, yes. But generally after millions of victims are killed, and what is left over is very different than what existed prior.
- SpicyLemonZest 2y agoThere are many points in history where a dictator made their country permanently worse. Argentina was once among the wealthiest democracies in the world, until a dictator seized power in 1930 - it took 53 years to restore democratic governance and their economy still isn't back on track.
- chneu 2y agoThis rings true for much of South America at one point or another. Lots of African nations. Several in SE Asia as well. Heck, just in the last few years we've seen several countries regress by a decade or more because of military coups or similar. Really, if you look at many countries that haven't been a world power, this has happened once or twice in recent memory.
- teddyh 2y agoAccording to Wikipedia, “in 1929, Argentina was wealthy by world standards, but the prosperity ended after 1929 with the worldwide Great Depression.” It was presumably the collapsing economy which caused the military coup, not the other way around. Do you have a better example? Or is that it?
- slowmovintarget 2y agoHarvard can do whatever they want. They can also not get taxpayer funding for it.