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> The best minds of my generation I’m tired of that line. I remember first seeing it on “the best minds of our generation being employed to sell you ads”. Maki
by latexr 2y ago
> The best minds of my generation
I’m tired of that line. I remember first seeing it on “the best minds of our generation being employed to sell you ads”. Making a computer go brrr doesn’t qualify anyone for a “best mind”.
I’d hope a “best mind” would be, above all, empathetic. Concerned about the well being of their fellow humans. Philosophical about the state of the world. Patient. Curious. Wise and not just smart.
That we keep putting greedy assholes on a “best minds” pedestal due to their ability to exploit others for personal profit is part of the problem.
- infinghxsg 2y ago[dead]
- candiddevmike 2y agoCase in point: how many of the best minds left OpenAI when it restructured?
- Tade0 2y agoThere were several people who indeed quit.
- glasshug 2y agoWon’t argue with it being overdone, but it’s in reference to Ginsberg. Not necessarily complimentary. https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/49303/howl https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/49303/howl
- bmc7505 2y agoGingsberg stole it from Yeats — “the best lack all conviction…” / “the best minds of my generation…” — many similar verses, e.g., “what rough beast…” / “what sphinx of cement…” https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43290/the-second-coming https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/43290/the-second-comi...
- throw4847285 2y agoHe stole the concept of poetry from Yeats?
- miltonlost 2y agoThose aren't nearly close enough to be considered stolen. Possibly allusions (which is not stealing), but even then, the only similarity of the bests is "The best" usage. Nothing about the rest of the lines, or before, are similar enough to be "stolen" (potentially the Ginsberg troping Yeat's "full of passionate intensity" of the worst into his best's "madness, starving hysterical", but that too is allusion, not stealing). The best lack all conviction, while the worst // Are full of passionate intensity. vs I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked, // dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an angry fix, How is this stealing in any form?
- adamors 2y agoHaving been in IT for close to 15 years now, a lot of good minds work in IT a lot of good minds don't. But I've encountered a lot of stupid (for lack of a better word) people in IT who were convinced they are good at _everything_ just because they grokked algorithms and data structures. Not sure it's a phenomenon unique to IT, but what DOGE is doing is exactly what I mean.
- gzer0 2y agoCan confirm, this isn't just an IT thing. Physicians are a prime example—people tend to put doctors on a pedestal, and some doctors start believing they know everything about everything, even when it's clearly outside their wheelhouse. Being smart in one area doesn’t automatically make you an expert in another, but it’s easy for everyone involved to forget that.
- bookofjoe 2y agoI'm a retired neurosurgical anesthesiologist; you are correct about this illusion that physicians often labor under. But it's worth noting that when medical topics are posted here, the responses from non-physicians are sometimes so nonsensical that I for one laugh out loud reading them. In fact, I look forward to these discussions for this very reason.
- conductr 2y agoI’m a CFO that used to work in healthcare. Have had many cases where a doctor tries to explain to me how accounting “should work” and I have to tell them we have this little thing call revenue recognition or GAAP or how accruals work, etc. basically the stuff covered in accounting 101. I’m used to fielding questions about numbers from all types but only doctors will immediately jump to telling you it’s wrong without asking questions and adamantly insisting they know the right way to do things is what I’ve noticed as a personality quirk generalization.
- mnky9800n 2y agoI like it when they explain to you how hard they work and how it’s unlike how anyone else works and they are super special because of it.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- desdenova 2y ago> I’d hope a “best mind” would be, above all, empathetic. Concerned about the well being of their fellow humans. Philosophical about the state of the world. Patient. Curious. Wise and not just smart. A person may be all of those things, but they still need to pay bills and eat. That requires a job, and jobs depend on the bourgeoise, that's none of those things.
- mapt 2y agoOn that specific quote - I feel like this is offensive on more than one level. The waste of our best minds... sure. Fine. But - "to sell you ads." Marketting has the dubious distinction of being one area of human endeavor where technological advances serve mostly to make your life worse, make your mind less focused, make your wallet more empty. The spherical-cow "ideal" 100% efficient perfect marketing campaign/tactic literally hypnotizes you into dropping all your money on an arbitrary good or service. It is isomorphic to somebody mugging you. What does it look like if we achieve 10% efficiency? 1%? How is this infringement on your agency and financial well-being a positive social good? What if we could achieve profitable returns even by flooding the zone at 0.001%? How many ads do you want to be subjected to per thing that somebody in your neighborhood buys?
- thfuran 2y ago0. I want third-party advertising eliminated entirely and self-sdvertising advertising on one's own property more regulated than it currently is.
- ninalanyon 2y agoBe careful what you wish for. At least at the moment it is easy to use tools like uBlock to avoid ads but it gets more difficult if they are served as an integral part of the page from the same domain.
- thfuran 2y agoI think that'd be far less prolific than third party advertising currently is. And it'd be worth it to get rid of the big pile of perverse incentives, manipulation, and surveillance that is the current ad industry.
- antonvs 2y agoAlong these lines, "it" most fundamentally refers to unrestrained capitalism. (Or perhaps computing.)
- eddd-ddde 2y ago
- zwnow 2y agoWhy is being empathetic a trait of a "great mind"? Wouldn't it also be possible that "great minds" don't consider things like empathy as useful? Looking back at human history, its usually people that aren't empathetic who end up being successful. At least in a way that people consider "successful". Humanity has long outlived the usefulness of empathy.
- InsideOutSanta 2y agoHow do you go from "successful" to "useful"? There seems to be no logical connection from "shitty people are successful" to "empathy is not useful to society."
- zwnow 2y agoBecause empathy isn't useful to society. One only lives once so you better make sure you'll be successful. Having empathy will actively hurt your own life
- lolinder 2y ago> empathy isn't useful to society ... Having empathy will actively hurt your own life Even if I accepted the second statement (which to be clear, I absolutely do not), it doesn't follow that empathy isn't useful to society. Society is not benefited by everyone running about chasing their own personal success to the exclusion of all others: that kind of world isn't even called a society. We have other names for that and they're less positive.
- WhyOhWhyQ 2y agoThank you person. You have improved my day.
- mythrwy 2y agoProbably we should keep the distinction between "best hearts" and "best minds" but otherwise agreed, a good heart is preferable to a good mind.
- greatquux 2y agoThe best song that starts off with that quote: https://youtu.be/UryTypo2qeU?si=CdTPe0ufnktLB_6i https://youtu.be/UryTypo2qeU?si=CdTPe0ufnktLB_6i “ I Should Be Allowed to Think” by They Might Be Giants Change a couple words here and there and it’s talking about social media
- InsideOutSanta 2y agoFrom context, we can infer that "best minds" means "smart people who make new things." I feel it's fair to lament that, while these people could put their intelligence towards the betterment of everybody, they are often instead working on shit like ad tech.
- brandall10 2y agoProbably ‘capable’ should be used instead of ‘best’. The latter might lead the reader astray with notions of ethics.
- sahilagarwal 2y agoThe best tech stack I have ever worked on was in an adtech company. The code was beautiful and the utility functions to interface with various AWS services were really really neat. I built a near real time estimator using Theta Sketches. While job searching, I have tried to use techs like Sketches in my filters but it mostly draws up a blank. Would love to work on genuinely interesting stuff like that again. It honestly did leave a bad taste in my mouth whenever I thought what the end goal of it all was.
- crabbone 2y agoI treat this expression as Ayenbite of Inwit. When I use it (because I'm super pretentious) I don't mean the book itself or the saner English version of the title "Remorse of Conscience". I mean it as a parody of the later. Like, when someone comes up with a contrived blame for wrongdoing that either didn't happen or was so minor that it doesn't warrant the discussion. I don't think author means "best minds" literally. I think they mean it ironically, more like "those who are most eager to perform the task assigned to them". But maybe I'm saying the obvious. Irony is admittedly hard to translate into writing.
- lolinder 2y agoThis reminds me of Bret Devereaux's series on Alexander III of Macedon and the meaning of "greatness" [0]: > Only once we’ve stripped away the mythology and found the man can we then ask that key question: was Alexander truly great and if so, what does that say not about Alexander, but about our own conceptions of greatness? "Great" and "best" are both just words, words whose definition is defined by us who use them. [0] https://acoup.blog/2024/05/17/collections-on-the-reign-of-alexander-iii-of-macedon-the-great/ https://acoup.blog/2024/05/17/collections-on-the-reign-of-al...
- mattgreenrocks 2y agoIt is curious to me that so many revered as “great” by culture often end up treating those close to them in abhorrent ways. Many worship Moloch not overtly but in the lack of accountability they require of high status individuals. It seems that once someone gets past a certain thermocline of status then accusations of character become less likely to stick. I’ve come to believe this is seen as a feature and not a bug by many people. Not everyone, but many. Ultimately we get what we incentivize and reward as a society. Recent events are a painful reminder of that.
- thih9 2y agoI think "best" in this case stands for highest performance and not necessarily moral values - with this definition, unfortunately, making a computer go brrr does qualify for a best mind, if the brrr is especially impressive.
- erichmond 2y agoI came here to say exactly this. I can't tell if it's because I'm not a traditional "tech" person, but 90% of the best minds I've seen are nowhere near tech in general. Having a brilliant mind, going to an "elite" school (because someone told you it's elite), joining a FAANG company, building software that you deep down know is killing society, but doing it because the "problems are fun and money is great" is antithetical to what a "best mind of a generation" would truly be. It's wasted talent with few redeeming qualities for society and a lack of innovation/creativity around using your talents to improve the world. A "best mind of the generation" would find a way to be successful without riding such a lazy conveyor belt of life.
- gh0stcat 2y agoThank you, it’s unfortunate that the average person doesn’t seem to understand this.
- andrelaszlo 2y ago"I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness" I'm not sure what Ginsberg meant when he used the term but I imagine it wasn't the same type of mind. https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/49303/howl https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/49303/howl
- bsenftner 2y agoI've always considered references to "the best minds" to mean those glorified because they make others large sums of money. "The best minds" are never the ones profiting from their ideas.
- jxjnskkzxxhx 2y agoIm tired of the line "computer go brr". Is that the best you can explain yourself?
- TeMPOraL 2y ago> I’m tired of that line. I remember first seeing it on “the best minds of our generation being employed to sell you ads”. Making a computer go brrr doesn’t qualify anyone for a “best mind”. It's the other way around. It's not just, or primarily, about run of the mill software devs. It's also about the would-be top mathematicians and physicists and psychologists and others - best minds in various domains, that in a better world would be busy solving real problems, but due to quirk of the economy end up working on ruining lives of other people, at scale, because adtech pays well while almost all useful work pays a pittance. I remember this quote not as judging or categorizing people by smartness, but as lamenting a world which mismanages humanity's potential so badly, by literally directing our best problem solvers to work on creating problems for everyone.
- spencerflem 2y agoI think the argument is more about whether someone involved in hostile behavior deserves to be called a "best mind" compared to someone worse at math but better at empathy. Fwiw I kinda agree with both of you. Don't really know how to square it
- anonymars 2y agoI'd say it's something like "a squandering of potential"
- SamoyedFurFluff 2y agoI think it’s more nuances, it’s saying that our definition of potential, best, etc, doesn’t weigh empathy for our fellow humans heavily enough. It’s an argument to flip that instead of our brightest minds being spent on ads, to instead say we are not rewarding our brightest minds at all but our most mercenary ones.
- TeMPOraL 2y agoI read it as: best in terms of problem-solving power. On the ethical and empathic side, whether they're good/best or worst depends on whether you put more blame on systemic pressures (here mostly economic) vs. on individual agency.
- fny 2y agoI think the point is that people with the capacity to be both smart and empathetic have lost their way. The more subtle point is that many empathetic people have bullshit jobs: they too work in service of it for simply their livelihood.
- voidhorse 2y agoThere is one trait common to nearly everyone participating in the computing industry: overweening pride in one's own intelligence. People in the industry like to reduce 'intelligence' to a single dimension. You can see this phenomenon directly in the current AI wave in which "intelligence" has been reduced to "does well at 'knowledge worker' tasks and passes arbitrary benchmarks we have defined".
- SkyBelow 2y agoCompared to the population at large, how does their definition do? Compared to philosophers and neuroscientists, it is lacking, no doubt. But that's the top 1% of the population in being able to define intelligence. So where does this view of intelligence rank compared on a more global sense? It seems better than those who just go with a "I know it when I see it" gut check (especially given how often that gut check is now letting newer models pass as long as they don't know it is an AI model). Or the "humans, because humans are clearly better" view that assigns mythical status to the human brain. Is it in the top 5%? Top 2%? For a group to come up with a good enough definition that still ranks among the top and which is suited for the specific tasks at hand, seems like a show of intelligence. It isn't perfect, but to what extent is that avoiding premature optimization? Once the definition has issues, it'll be refined more. No need to waste time refining it if we never build tools that hit the limits of the current definition.
- binarymax 2y agoThis is from Allen Ginsberg's Howl. A must read.
- Cerium 2y agoThe fact that your tired of that line is the point here. We're tired of it. It does this, copies common content and style.
- paxcoder 2y ago[dead]
- mc32 2y agoI don't think best minds ever implied empathy or even should. Best, to me, means people who are the top of their specialty, whether it be mathematics, astrophysics, rocketry, economics, business, politics, pedagogy, archeology, etc. People with unnerving dedication and pursuit of knowledge to advance whatever their specialty is. It could be the marketing most of us loathe but it can also be any of the above and more and only a few pursuits only tangentially imply empathy.
- damnesian 2y agoI think it's a reference to Allen Ginsberg's the Howl, which chronicles Ginsberg watching brilliant people of his generation die in war or become drug casualties, their potential squandered either by evil men or navel-gazing.
- pj_mukh 2y ago"would be, above all, empathetic. Concerned about the well being of their fellow humans." I'm tired of this line. We are animals first and foremost. Complicated animals, but animals nonetheless. We will never consistently be this. The best of us will try but most of us will animalistically react to the incentives in front of us in selfish ways. We are better of thinking of systems and the incentives they create than hopelessly waiting for us to become not animals. Aligning good goals with personal profit is the name of the game.
- cloogshicer 2y agoExcept our superior ability to collaborate is arguably our strongest asset.
- pj_mukh 2y agoOf course! Nothing I said precludes this. Lots of collaboration is used for selfish means.
- cloogshicer 2y agoIs collaboration at its most useful/powerful when it's done selfishly?
- threetonesun 2y agoI don't think that's how it's meant to be read, if you consider it in the context of the original quote, it's about good and empathetic minds going to waste because of the demands of society. We put so much social and economic capital into tech that it's better to push five lines of code for Facebook than be a doctor, which are the "good minds going to waste".
- Patrax 2y agoAgree - but don't think there is a "best mind(s)". We're creatures of repetition and thus specialization, and so our minds can get really good at very specific things, but ultimately we're all dumb apes trying to survive as best we can.
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- cafard 2y agoI had always supposed that one was supposed to recognize a borrowing from Allen Ginsberg's "Howl": https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/49303/howl https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/49303/howl (Not that I'd automatically accept Ginsberg's evaluation of best minds.)
- sahilagarwal 2y agoYou reminded me of one of my favorite piece of media in gaming (HZD). It feels especially relevant in the current times, with how war and AI is progressing in tandem with geopolitical unrest. Its an old recording that the main character listens to in the end cutscene while visiting Elisabet's grave, and (spoilers) the main character was created as a clone of Elisabet. It's very hard hitting after the whole experience. > GAIA: Query: What did she say? Elisabet Sobeck: She said I had to care. She said, "Elisabet, being smart will count for nothing if you don't make the world better. You have to use your smarts to count for something, to serve life, not death." GAIA: You often tell stories of your mother. But you are childless. Elisabet Sobeck: I never had time. I guess it was for the best. GAIA: If you had had a child, Elisabet, what would you have wished for him or her? Elisabet Sobeck: I guess... I would have wanted her to be... curious. And willful - unstoppable, even... but with enough compassion to... heal the world... just a little bit.
- navane 2y agoThe point of that quote is not at all that those minds are so smart, but rather that their industry is sad and detrimental. That is: to fan the fire that is burning the world so that a select few can get more comfortable. I'm not talking about a flyer here or a store face there, but there is definitely a point where ads don't benefit us anymore. Can I buy the sky and project ads on it? Can I buy the ocean and project ads on it?
- tvickery 2y agoThank you. They act as if the “best minds” need not read or reason beyond logic and math. Having a “best mind” requires a lifelong dedication to understanding other people, ideas, and history above all else.
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