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I wish that Framework could attain the same lofty levels of "second hand market success" that ThinkPads enjoy. A lot of the "Thinkpad fans" I've talked to genui

I wish that Framework could attain the same lofty levels of "second hand market success" that ThinkPads enjoy. A lot of the "Thinkpad fans" I've talked to genuinely want them, or respect them for similar reasons they enjoy the ThinkPad legacy. ThinkPads are durable but every day they get older, slower and more difficult to source parts for as collectors entrench themselves and the requirements of operating systems (and the "modern web") worsen Framework laptops are wonderful, modern and (arguably?) cheaper to own in the long-term thanks to being able to replace components, particularly the entire mainboard as time progresses. *But* they're a tiny boutique manufacturer. Their barrier to entry is that of a pretty hefty modern laptop, versus buying a T420 for practically pennies and performing all kinds of aftermarket "mods" to it. 51nb's "FrankenPads" especially breathe incredible new life into old IBM and Lenovo stock. Combine this with the fact that being the "defacto business laptop" for nearly three decades (along with perhaps Dell) means there's enough Thinkpads on Earth to probably stretch end-to-end around the moon and back

al_borland 2y ago
Framework is still very new. It takes time to build a brand. I hope their new Framework 12 hits it big with the mainstream. It sounds like it’s targeted as the school/chromebook market, but as an adult I’m also interested. I’m hoping when the pre-orders go up next week it’s priced in a way that makes it an impulse buy. I really don’t need it, but I want to support the company and their mission.
- joseda-hg 2y ago
  As someone that had been thinking on buying both a tablet and some sort of chromebook for light web based workflows on the go, they 100% have my attention I will say, it has weirded me out that they have been so cagey about the pricing in particular, which AFAICT, is the only thing not public about the laptop before the pre order date
  - chairmansteve 2y ago
    Probably worried about tariffs. Now they know.
    - nottorp 2y ago
      Now they need to arrange selling and shipping from outside the US for their non US customers so they aren't affected :)
  - onli 2y ago
    I also saw no mention about the weight. Did you? Matters to me a lot for a 12".
fishgoesblub 2y ago
Until you're able to somehow transplant a T420 keyboard into a Framework, I'm staying on my ThinkPad either until it dies, or the heat death of the universe. whichever comes first ;-)
- ekianjo 2y ago
  Right. Fantastic keyboards. Nothing comes close in recent laptops.
  - Rediscover 2y ago
    Older ThinkPad (pre-2008) snob checking in. The only recent laptops with decent keyboards (that I have found) are from MNT Research. https://mntre.com/ https://mntre.com/
    - dahauns 2y ago
      It's great that they are mechanical and haven't forsaken contours, but since we're among old snobs... sigh I'll never get that "lets shove everything together into a sea of keys" layout (so prevalent in the mechakeyboard scene nowadays as well). All those off-center keys have been grouped, offset and/or specially shaped since ages for a reason - to immediately and unambiguously settle your fingers there with minimal error when you have to move you hand away from the homerow anyway.
  - winrid 2y ago
    isn't the x1 carbon keyboard basically the same?
    - ekianjo 2y ago
      Nope, the 520, 420, 220 had a different design
      - winrid 2y ago
        Curious, what's great about it?
lolinder 2y ago
I'm unsure how a second hand market for Frameworks would even make sense, given that the whole premise is that they're highly repairable and upgradable. If everyone just replaces pieces one at a time then there can be no market for used whole laptops, and if people did start regularly selling off their used Frameworks then that would suggest that they're failing at their main value proposition. I suppose I could see a secondhand market for used mainboards and other parts.
- mhitza 2y ago
  Both framework and fairphone have secondary community markets, and it makes sense. You upgrade and resell your old part. Used whole laptops also make sense if one's requirements change. i.e. going from a 13 to a 16 or a 12. https://community.frame.work/c/community-market/202 https://community.frame.work/c/community-market/202 https://forum.fairphone.com/c/market/51 https://forum.fairphone.com/c/market/51
- mrweasel 2y ago
  In my mind there's also a pretty big overlap in MacBook and ThinkPad users. For me personal that is the choice I'm faced with, when picking a new laptop. Do I get a new MacBook, or do I get a ThinkPad running Linux. I don't think I'm unique in this way. Also, at least among the people I work with and talk to, many are dropping their MacBooks for a ThinkPad, because they are migrating from macOS to Linux as Apple becomes increasingly restrictive and running Linux is just becoming the easier option. Framework is approaching the point where there is now a choice, Framework or ThinkPads. It's just that I can still get a really good used ThinkPad for like half or a third of the price.
mrheosuper 2y ago
There is Thinkpad T25 25th anniversary edition[1]. It has "modern" spec, while still having that traditional keyboard of t420 Also iirc there are projects that make Motherboard that fit in old thinkpad chassis. It has very impressive spec: 8 core Zen3 AMD cpu and 32gb ram. Some M2 slot etc. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_25th_anniversary_edition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_25th_anniversary_edit...
- john2x 2y ago
  I currently have this T25. But it’s mostly a gimmick. Once the coolness wore off it’s just a midrange T470 under the hood. Still trucking after 7 years though. But I can’t upgrade it to Win 11 lol
  - arp242 2y ago
    Keyboard is a bit nicer, but that's probably about it. Had to use Scroll Lock just yesterday. Which, well, I can't on my x13 :-(
  - notpushkin 2y ago
    You can combine it with a top-line T480 if you want! https://www.xyte.ch/mods/t25-frankenpad/ https://www.xyte.ch/mods/t25-frankenpad/ > But I can’t upgrade it to Win 11 lol Nothing of value has been lost :^) (But if you really need Win 11, there are workarounds)
nextos 2y ago
IBM-era ThinkPads were great, but Lenovo has been progressively diluting the brand, trying to copy Apple, and releasing way too many models to be able to pay attention to detail. Still, they are often the best x86 machines, but competition from Framework is more than welcome. Something that I find particularly annoying are persistent issues with noisy cooling systems. Some models are great, but others have poorly thought fans and overly aggressive firmware. Software fixes can only remedy part of the problem. I wish they stayed closer to their original ethos of high-quality utilitarian computers. Something like the 25th and 30th Anniversary Editions should be in their main stock product line, i.e. stop messing with keyboards please. The original was fine.
cosmic_cheese 2y ago
Framework’s offerings are interesting, but after having gotten used to the solid rigidity of M-series MacBooks and X1 series Thinkpads, the level of flex in the Framework 13 is a major issue for me. It’s difficult to justify for the price, plus PCBs and repeated flex stress don’t mix nicely. I think it’s time for either Framework or a third party partner to sell a new chassis that’s compatible with the FW13’s mainboard, but focuses on a more sturdy, premium feel, even if that means doing away with the modular port cards. I suspect that mainboards housed in such a chassis will fare better over time than their original housing counterparts.
- mikae1 2y ago
  As I see it, an aluminum slab MNT Reform Next[1] would be a better Thinkpad replacement than a Framework (from a build and reparability standpoint). [1] https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/mnt-reform-next https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/mnt-reform-next
  - roywashere 2y ago
    Oh man, the MNT Reform looks _so_ awesome!
    - 0xEF 2y ago
      Except for that price. Yikes. Heck of a barrier to entry for an unproven product. I do wish them well, but as we call for more modularity in laptop design, we can't forget the core value of keeping it affordable for the masses.
      - bombcar 2y ago
        Which is why we're sadly only really going to get it if a major manufacturer decides to go Framework on us, because otherwise the economies of scale just aren't there. Or laptops get so uncommon that manufacturers have to band together and agree on standards.
      - jabl 2y ago
grudg3 2y ago
Obligatory "I can't even order Framework in my country" post. But I can get as many Thinkpads as I want.
- bigpeopleareold 2y ago
  Same here - can also buy 2 or 3 T480s for the price of a new framework even if they did deliver :D
rafamvc 2y ago
The second hand market is so good for Thinkpads because there were so many of them bought by businesses. Framework isn't the top choice for business.
- noisy_boy 2y ago
  There are plenty of well heeled techies who will pay premium for a modern machine with durability and repairability of the ThinkPads of the old.
j45 2y ago
When Frameworks first came out, there was doubt that they couldn't last a year. Or launch multiple lines. Longevity is built one step at a time. Voting with dollars only helps it become an option enough and signal to other manufacturers to consider similar ways.
linguae 2y ago
I enjoy my Framework 13 laptop; it’s great having a laptop that is user-serviceable and upgradable, and I’m keeping my eyes out on the upcoming Framework convertible laptop as a potential replacement for my aging Microsoft Surface Pro 7. With that said, I do wish the keyboard on my Framework 13 were better. It would be a wonderful to have a ThinkPad-quality keyboard, I have a ThinkPad T430 and its keyboard is one of the best chiclet-style keyboards I’ve ever used. I also like the keyboard on my old aluminum PowerBook G4, as well as the keyboard on my work-issued M3 MacBook Pro. What would be a dream, though, would be if there’s some way to fit a mechanical keyboard into a laptop.
- cassepipe 2y ago
  I did not expect this criticism ! I, and many others apparently, enjoy the keyboard a lot. My main criticism would be that even though it's acceptable, the chassis does not feel rugged.
  - joe5150 2y ago
    Agreed particularly with respect to the top cover (though it has improved).
- dahauns 2y ago
  >With that said, I do wish the keyboard on my Framework 13 were better. Exactly this. I've given up hope to expect an old-school TP keyboard with its ridged concave keys providing perfect tactile feedback even when not depressing a key, but there's basically no standard laptop layout out there anymore optimized for efficient touch typing, with existing consistently grouped and offset(!) off-center key groups (4-group f-keys, pgup/pgdn/home/end cluster, arrow keys). And some key travel to go with tactile scissor keys to reduce bottoming-out would be nice. (Oh, and why I find the "tactile feedback" so important, see the wonderful "Pictures Under Glass" rant. https://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDesign/ https://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDes... Not directly related to keyboards, but the premise remains the same. Hands feel things. :) )
  - 2y ago
kristopolous 2y ago
Every time i see the framework people at a conference i insist that they have to target the thinkpad users and not just the macbook people. Just remind them if you see them. They'll eventually prioritize making it happen. At every company I've worked for, tickets get promoted from the backlog if enough customers or would-be customers nag about it.
- cassepipe 2y ago
  Even MacBook users are used to something quite more rugged
HexPhantom 2y ago
I really hope they get there though. The idea of a modern, repairable, modular laptop that doesn't lock you into a walled garden is incredibly appealing
GolfPopper 2y ago
My only objection to the 51nb FrankenPads is that to the best of my knowledge, they take out the ExpressPort. As a bit of a data-hoarder, I use my ExpressPort for an M2 drive, and don't particularly want to give that up.
- wkat4242 2y ago
  The T480 motherboard they use as a base for the conversion does have NVMe support, just a weird one that's integrated in the SATA bay. There was a name for it, but I forget. Some kind of transitionary standard. But you can get a converter for that. It did have half the PCIe channels of a regular M2 slot I think. It's been a while since I had one in my hands. The T480 didn't come with an ExpressCard IIRC hence the lack of it. You need an adapter like this: https://www.google.com/search?q=ssd+m.2+caddy+lenovo https://www.google.com/search?q=ssd+m.2+caddy+lenovo
roywashere 2y ago
My new company of about 100 persons uses ThinkPads as their 'standard issue' laptops. Which I guess is great. I have a T480 privately. But modern ThinkPads are not as great as before, and I was just thinking about if the Framework might make a nice 'standard issue' laptop for the company. I guess it might be just fine!
- maccard 2y ago
  When would you define as “before”? I’ve had a thinkpad on and off and I’d describe the quality as consistent. People talking about old Lenovos being good quality are often talking about in the pre-IBM days which is far more likely to be nostalgia at this point.
  - hkt 2y ago
    Not sure what GP means but I gather the x230 era (2012?) has a cult following. I picked one up a few years ago when a laptop died and I didn't have the cash for something new: it is still my daily driver and I'm not replacing it til it dies. By contrast, I know someone who got a T480 second hand and it lasted six months. My guess is the 2012 era was when the change happened
    - dahauns 2y ago
      It's been a gradual shift, with a few obvious changes along the way. Among a few: The keyboard switch from the old 7-row (whose pinnacle was at the x220/T420 era with double-height esc and del) to the new 6-row (with later ever decreasing key travel) to the current x9 (which is basically just a yoga keyboard with no trackpoint, no key grouping, and the loss of pgup/pgdn). Things like the modular battery options vanished. The case got flimsier over time with e.g. the magnesium rollcage first vanishing from the display, then from the base. (And no - from enterprise experience - the carbon fiber composite isn't generally "as good or better", esp. for failure modes like punctual force on the display. Or...grabbing the laptop by the display and using it to fan your BBQ, which doesn't faze my old X41 :) ).
      - 2y ago
shoo 2y ago
> enough Thinkpads on Earth to probably stretch end-to-end around the moon and back LD, average distance between Earth and Moon = 384,399,000 m [1] C = circumference of moon = 10,917,000 m R := approximate round trip distance = 2LD + 0.5*C = 774,256,500 m n = total number of thinkpads on earth <= total number of thinkpads ever manufactured = 250 million [2][2a][2b] W = width of thinkpad = 0.3366 m [3] T = total thinkpad distance = n * W <= 84,150,000 m Alas, T / R, the ratio of total thinkpad distance T to our lunar round trip distance R, is at most about 0.11 . This is with the optimistic assumption that the total number of thinkpads on earth equals the total number of thinkpads ever manufactured. A more conservative estimate might be something like n = total number of thinkpads manufactured each year * mean lifespan of a thinkpad = (12 million thinkpads / year) * (5 years lifespan) = 60 million thinkpads in good working order for a lunar round trip. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_distance [2] IBM sold 25m thinkpads before selling product line to Lenovo. By 2022, Lenovo had sold 200m thinkpads. With linear extrapolation to 2024 that gives approx 250 million thinkpads manufactured. [2a] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad [2b] https://www.forbes.com/sites/timbajarin/2022/10/05/celebrating-thinkpads-30th-anniversaryan-insiders-perspective/ [3] assume every thinkpad is a T480. https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_T480/ThinkPad_T480_Spec.PDF
- xnorswap 2y ago
  It won't get you to the moon, but you can squeeze out a little more distance by arranging them corner to corner.
  - shoo 2y ago
    We must either increase the production rate of T480-size thinkpads by around 9x or get Lenovo to release at least one special edition extreme widescreen thinkpad specialised for lunar round trips
    - fouronnes3 2y ago
      Or move the moon closer.
janitor77swe 2y ago
> Framework laptops are wonderful, modern and (arguably?) cheaper to own in the long-term thanks to being able to replace components, particularly the entire mainboard as time progresses. That is entirely false. Replacing the mainboard itself costs the same amount of money as a new laptop (an entire device). Their component prices are on their website under "Shop Parts", so you can verify that for yourself. I can buy a brand new Ryzen 7000 series laptop for the price of replacing a Ryzen 7000 series mainboard for a Framework laptop. Their laptops are also a lot more expensive than same spec branded ones from Asus, Lenovo and Dell that have better build quality and design. I don't know where does this myth come from. The cost of replacing individual component is more expensive than replacing an entire device which people do not do because it needs repairing or often even upgrading, but because they're sick of the sight of it. You can't replace one component and extend the life of your PC another full cycle because you'll soon have to replace other components too. So when it comes to upgrading you have to consider the price of upgrading all available components to get the true cost as opposed to buying a new device. Eventually, sooner rather than later, both RAM and SSD will come soldered on, so the only thing you will be able to replace is the battery and the screen. Both which 99% users never have to replace. I am a Thinkpad user myself, have had them for both work and pleasure. Recently upgraded my old T14 for an X13 after reading and watching a lot of Framework reviews. It's just simply a gimmick, with a lot of quality issues, being sustained by having LTT name behind it.
- mistercheph 2y ago
  > Replacing the mainboard itself costs the same amount of money as a new laptop (an entire device). Their component prices are on their website under "Shop Parts", so you can verify that for yourself. I can buy a brand new Ryzen 7000 series laptop for the price of replacing a Ryzen 7000 series mainboard for a Framework laptop. That’s not true, you must be comparing unlike boards and machines. a 7640 mainboard is $380 (https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ryzen-7040-series?v=FRANGV0005 https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ryzen-7040-series?...) and a 7640 chassis (with no memory, ssd, or expansion bays) is $750 (https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-13-gen-amd/configuration/new https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-13-gen-amd/configurat...) Another example, the ai 7 350 mainboard is $700, and a bare chassis is $1,230.
znpy 2y ago
> 51nb's "FrankenPads" especially breathe incredible new life into old IBM and Lenovo stock. That's biased though. As soon as a 51nb motherboard dies or has any hardware failure you're back to 2008-era level of performance.
- Melatonic 2y ago
  Any idea how reliable those motherboards are ?
DeathArrow 2y ago
>ThinkPads are durable but every day they get older, slower and more difficult to source parts for as collectors entrench themselves and the requirements of operating systems (and the "modern web") worsen That's true for every computer. But people still buy old C64, Amiga, Atari, IBM or Apple computers.
- criddell 2y ago
  > But people still buy old C64, Amiga, Atari, IBM or Apple computers. Not in meaningful numbers.
DeathArrow 2y ago
>Framework laptops are wonderful, modern and (arguably?) cheaper to own in the long-term thanks to being able to replace components, particularly the entire mainboard as time progresses. They are also bulky and battery life is not great. To upgrade it you have to buy a mainboard which is quite expensive. I found that I am better by selling my old laptop and buying a new one.
- unethical_ban 2y ago
  I don't know about other non-mac laptops. I agree the battery life isn't anything to write home about, but it's better than my corporate windows laptop. I blame Intel/AMD/Windows for killing off proper suspend modes. But bulky? I have the Framework 13 and it's very well sized. Smaller and lighter than the 14" macbook pro and similar to my windows laptop.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    > I blame Intel/AMD/Windows for killing off proper suspend modes. Holy $ALL_DEITIES! I use mac laptops, but I've recently set up a WinAMDNvidia "gaming" laptop. I just closed the lid when I was done for the day, because that's what you do with macs. In the morning there was a strong whooshing sound in my home office. Guess what, the sleeping laptop had turned its fan on. What kind of sleep mode is that that needs active cooling?
einpoklum 2y ago
> Framework laptops are wonderful No they're not. They have the sake kind of atrocious low-travel keyboards that almost-all (or all) other laptops these days have. And - for many of us - the most important piece of hardware in a laptop is the keyboard.
piokoch 2y ago
I am not sure what is so fascinating about Framework laptops. They are pretty expensive and are, in fact, one more Chinese OEM production - they are produced by Taiwanese Compal Electronics, which has factory in Kunshan (China). It is hard to build a legend around something like this. MacBooks are produced in China too (as everything), but they have that "legacy" of being a cult product from U.S.A.
- nrp 2y ago
  We manufacture in Taiwan, not China, and the design is ours, not Compal’s.
silisili 2y ago
I think durability on old Thinkpads is way underrated as a reason people love them. Me, as a 250ish lb giant, have stepped on one multiple times without so much as a creak. Granted, it was on accident each time and I'm sure perfect heel placement could have done the job if I tried. Even so, can Framework do the same? Can anyone else making laptops today?
- dahauns 2y ago
  Part of the Thinkpad sales pitch of old was literally to throw the Thinkpad on the floor and step on it, pick it up and continue the presentation. Or, as I mentioned elsewhere, to grab it by the display end and pretend to use it to fan a fire.
- xaldir 2y ago
  As someone who started it's career in a thinkpad only shop Indeed, old thinkpads were designed to survive a coffee spill on the keyboard and they did, and various drops (with spinning rust as storage and cfl backed screens) And when you achieve to break some part, it can be easily swapped. Oh and the documentation for that is available and very detailed.
0xEF 2y ago
Yeah, the price is the only thing that holds me back from trying a Framework 13. I have a few Thinkpad X260s which can be got on eBay for $100US. Drop in a fresh SSD and stick of 16gb memory for another $100US and you have a very capable little machine for common, daily use that suits all my needs more than adequately. If one gets damaged, I am not out too much money. I've been using two for about 4 years now, one as my daily driver at home and one that goes on the road with me. I have not needed to further upgrade either one beyond what I did initially when buying* them. So, with that in mind, I think use-case has a lot to do with whether or not someone can get away with running the more disposable cheap-but-good Thinkpad like I do. But >$800US for a Framework 13 that bends like a reed in the wind is not a smart choice for me. I really like their ethos of modularity, too, but there's just no way I'm hitting that cost anytime soon. *Note on buying Thinkpad from eBay: yes, collectors have ruined the price of some models, but not all. Lots of the X Series models are still very cheap, but please do not support sellers who are offering cheap laptops without a battery and power cable. Be patient and dig, you'll find the ones who are selling you a complete, useable machine for cheap. Unfortunately, eBay is flooded with a lot of vulture tech resellers that part perfectly good batteries from devices so they can make more money selling you both separately.
- kjs3 2y ago
  You hit on why I got my first used ThinkPad many years ago (a T42): it was so cheap as to be disposable. I was going on a trip that promised to be somewhat...ah...rough on my kit, and I picked up the T42 for dirt so I didn't take my new, very expensive laptop only to have it trashed (I don't remember what it was now...probably some Dell). The Dell(?) is loooong gone. The T42 made it through the trip fine, and over many years has gotten an SSD, a memory upgrade and a new screen (old one worked fine; wanted the pretty SXGA screen) and because it has a real, honest to gawd parallel port, it's still serving duty today controlling some stuff in my lab (PROM programmer, some finicky windows software, etc). It might not be a daily driver, but it gets fired up most every week to do real work.
- doublepg23 2y ago
  FYI- you can find 32GB DDR4 SODIMMs that’ll work with the x260 :D
M95D 2y ago
Let me say from the start that I only saw Framework laptops in pictures and I still have my old Lenovo X60 Tablet. I hate Framework laptops' design. They went to the extreme of repairability but only as a marketing tool, while the products are still e-waste trash. I looked at Framework 13 laptop as a replacement for my X60 Tablet. Let me do a comparison between them: - FW13 battery swap needs dissasembly. Can't do it while on a train/bus/airplane. - X60 battery is removed by 2 spring latches on the back - FW13 has 2 internal expansion ports (M.2, I think), both permanently occupied by storage and wifi - X60 has 2 internal expansion ports (miniPCIe): one is occupied by wifi, one is for WWAN (optional). Storage is in a separate SATA bay. - FW13 has no external expansion slots, except if you count USB as expansion - X60 has 1 external expansion (PCMCIA/Cardbus type 2) - far more robust than USB-C, and the metal case provides cooling - FW13 has 4 USB-C ports, one is permanently occupied by the power cable - X60 has 3 USB-A ports (far more robust than USB-C), while charging is a separate barrel plug (also far more robust than USB-C) - FW13 has no video output, except as a USB adapter - X60 has VGA-out directly from the GPU - FW13 has no audio outputs, except as USB sound card - X60 has preamplified headphone-out and mic-in (also has internal microphone) - FW13 has video camera - X60 does not - FW13 has stereo speakers - X60 has a single mono speaker - FW13 has no ethernet, except as a USB adapter - X60 has gigabit ethernet Other things X60T has, but FW13 doesn't: - Touchscreen with pen, some models work with finger too, some don't - great keyboard and also some extra hardware buttons such as volume, instead of key combinations - Fingerprint reader - SD card slot - Firewire - IR port, fax/modem (not much use these days) - An attachable dock (not wired like current USB docks) that can house a CD/DVD drive, or another HDD/SDD, or extra battery and has another 2 USB ports, RS232 and parallel port. - There's also an external battery module that directly connects to the docking port. Please note that the X60 is ~15 years old. This wasn't a performance comparison. So, yes, framework laptops are repaireable, but they're so crippled, there isn't much left in them to repair.
- Tade0 2y ago
  - FW13 has no video output, except as a USB adapter - FW13 has no audio outputs, except as USB sound card That was a conscious design decision, as you're supposed to use swappable expansion cards. Other things X60T has, but FW13 doesn't: - Fingerprint reader https://frame.work/pl/en/products/fingerprint-reader-kit?v=FRANFF0001 https://frame.work/pl/en/products/fingerprint-reader-kit?v=F... - SD card slot https://frame.work/pl/en/products/sd-expansion-card https://frame.work/pl/en/products/sd-expansion-card
RecycledEle 2y ago
If Framework had used a ComExpress type 6 module in their laptops they would have had an upgradable processor. I wish someone would build a new laptop abound a ComExpress module and all the freely-open parts from a Framework laptop.
jjice 2y ago
I love my Framework AMD 13. Coming from an old Thinkpad X1 Carbon gen 3 I got used after a few years. Excellent form factor and oh so repairable. I’ve been very satisfied with the purchase. I’m really rooting for Framework over the next decade to really establish themselves and hopefully affect some change in laptop repairability. And hell, even if they don’t, hopefully they’ll be around so I can continue to be a customer.
NikolaNovak 2y ago
Not all, but a lot of ThinkPad fans enjoy the track point. No laptop without a track point can be considered a viable alternative for me :-/ And thus, I have everything from a 14 year old t420s to my trusty t25 anniversary edition, and then a few workhorses with 8th gen Intels (x13 yoga, x1 carbon, t580) as personal and family laptops.
- dagw 2y ago
  As someone who once loved the track point on my old IBM ThinkPad, I've found that for some reason every track point not made by IBM sucks. Even the modern Lenovo ones are terrible, and I have no idea why.
  - NikolaNovak 2y ago
    Interesting; I do find sometimes I need to go into the app and adjust the acceleration/sensitivity/speed to my liking, but even up to my current work Yoga (12th gen Intel), I used them preferentially to trackpad when on the move (ergonomic mouse when stationary). I have struggled more with Dells and HPs, but can usually get it "close enough"
    - dagw 2y ago
      To be fair, I went IBM -> Apple -> Lenovo, so it is conceivable that the track point is actually as good as it ever was, and I just got spoiled by how good the Apple trackpads are.
mock-possum 2y ago
I just can’t with the thinkpad’s keyboard layout. The left function being swapped with the ctrl key is a nonstarter for me - you can’t just put keys in the wrong place.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- prmoustache 2y ago
  You can swap them in the bios/firmware.
bdavbdav 2y ago
I’m not sure they’re there yet. I bought a FW13 as I love the ideology, but it felt cheap next to the MBP/A, for not a lot less cash. When it arrived with a failed backlight (which admittedly they immediately offered to dispatch a replacement part), it went back instead.
layer8 2y ago
And nobody is making (classic) ThinkPad-style keyboards for the Framework laptops (yet? — I'm not sure they have enough "headroom").
huslage 2y ago
Framework laptops aren't really repairable in the same way that old Thinkpads are. Maybe that's good, maybe not, but replacing an entire motherboard every 3 years isn't all that different from replacing an entire computer really.
- ggpsv 2y ago
  To add a data point here, my Framework laptop is 3 years old and I have no plans to change the mainboard anytime soon. Also, you don't change its motherboard, you change the mainboard (for my laptop, it's the CPU/integrated GPU + memory sockets); this is unlike changing the entire computer. Then, you can reuse the replaced mainboard as a server if you wish to. This pales with my experience using a Macbook Air whose motherboard failed. I did have to replace the entire computer.
- MostlyStable 2y ago
  In what way can you repair and old Thinkpad that you can't repair a framework?
- numpad0 2y ago
  Wait, are you saying they don't offer the full HMMs and FRU list like IBM/Lenovo did/does for ThinkPads????? IBM HMMs, or creatively named Hardware Maintenance Manuals, were written so that if all steps in the document were performed from start to end as written, the laptop would be a pile of FRUs or Field Replacement Units, so that those FRUs can be inspected, discarded, ordered, and replaced, and then the process can be done in reverse to produce a working unit. Why - I mean I think I know why - they likely don't have enough control and/or influence over parts suppliers to be able to publicly expose those data unlike the Big Blue - but why... 0: https://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/42x3550_03.pdf https://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/... 1: https://thinkpads.com/support/hmm/hmm_pdf/42x3550_04.pdf https://thinkpads.com/support/hmm/hmm_pdf/42x3550_04.pdf
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    Field repair by enterprise IT support was also part of Lenovo's business model. For framework repairability is a thing but it's not as important I guess. I had an HP that also had service manuals available. Ps Lenovo basically has two brands; the business laptops like the T, P and X ThinkPads, and the consumer stuff including some of the budget ThinkPads (I think E series). The latter don't do service manuals, have really crappy keyboards.. Just B-brand crap. They're just a consumer laptop with some thinkpad trim. Be careful with that if you think of buying one.
boomskats 2y ago
I love my x2100. It is the machine I keep coming back to, and find more reliable and enjoyable than any other I've owned (including ones that outperform it on linux, like my oled ryzen-based t14s). I've been trying to rationalise why that's the case for years - whether it's the keyboard, the trackpoint, its ability to survive my casual brutality, some nostalgic emotional/romantic aspect, etc., but recently I've kinda Stopped Worrying and just unapologetically embraced it. I've been wandering around kubecon with it for the last couple of days and getting 9-10 hours per battery and it hasn't skipped a beat. For anyone interested, there's a new project in town, the X210Ai [1]. I can't vouch for anything yet as I've not pulled the trigger myself, but I've been in touch with the vendor via whatsapp for the last couple of months, and they're legit enthusiasts. [0]: https://postimg.cc/Ty7PyKRx https://postimg.cc/Ty7PyKRx [1]: https://www.tpart.net/about-x210ai/ https://www.tpart.net/about-x210ai/
wkat4242 2y ago
Dells age really horribly though. Unlike ThinkPads (especially the IBM and early Lenovo days) I used to love my T490s even. It was a really recent model but still not bad for me. But now my work gave me a T14s and it's horrible. The keys have way less travel. The body is thinner but the screen is way thicker than the T490s's. I don't know what they're smoking but ThinkPads are dead as decent laptops.

al_borland 2y ago

Framework is still very new. It takes time to build a brand. I hope their new Framework 12 hits it big with the mainstream. It sounds like it’s targeted as the school/chromebook market, but as an adult I’m also interested. I’m hoping when the pre-orders go up next week it’s priced in a way that makes it an impulse buy. I really don’t need it, but I want to support the company and their mission.

joseda-hg 2y ago
As someone that had been thinking on buying both a tablet and some sort of chromebook for light web based workflows on the go, they 100% have my attention I will say, it has weirded me out that they have been so cagey about the pricing in particular, which AFAICT, is the only thing not public about the laptop before the pre order date
- chairmansteve 2y ago
  Probably worried about tariffs. Now they know.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    Now they need to arrange selling and shipping from outside the US for their non US customers so they aren't affected :)
- onli 2y ago
  I also saw no mention about the weight. Did you? Matters to me a lot for a 12".

fishgoesblub 2y ago

Until you're able to somehow transplant a T420 keyboard into a Framework, I'm staying on my ThinkPad either until it dies, or the heat death of the universe. whichever comes first ;-)

ekianjo 2y ago
Right. Fantastic keyboards. Nothing comes close in recent laptops.
- Rediscover 2y ago
  Older ThinkPad (pre-2008) snob checking in. The only recent laptops with decent keyboards (that I have found) are from MNT Research. https://mntre.com/ https://mntre.com/
  - dahauns 2y ago
    It's great that they are mechanical and haven't forsaken contours, but since we're among old snobs... sigh I'll never get that "lets shove everything together into a sea of keys" layout (so prevalent in the mechakeyboard scene nowadays as well). All those off-center keys have been grouped, offset and/or specially shaped since ages for a reason - to immediately and unambiguously settle your fingers there with minimal error when you have to move you hand away from the homerow anyway.
- winrid 2y ago
  isn't the x1 carbon keyboard basically the same?
  - ekianjo 2y ago
    Nope, the 520, 420, 220 had a different design
    - winrid 2y ago
      Curious, what's great about it?

lolinder 2y ago

I'm unsure how a second hand market for Frameworks would even make sense, given that the whole premise is that they're highly repairable and upgradable. If everyone just replaces pieces one at a time then there can be no market for used whole laptops, and if people did start regularly selling off their used Frameworks then that would suggest that they're failing at their main value proposition. I suppose I could see a secondhand market for used mainboards and other parts.

mhitza 2y ago
Both framework and fairphone have secondary community markets, and it makes sense. You upgrade and resell your old part. Used whole laptops also make sense if one's requirements change. i.e. going from a 13 to a 16 or a 12. https://community.frame.work/c/community-market/202 https://community.frame.work/c/community-market/202 https://forum.fairphone.com/c/market/51 https://forum.fairphone.com/c/market/51
mrweasel 2y ago
In my mind there's also a pretty big overlap in MacBook and ThinkPad users. For me personal that is the choice I'm faced with, when picking a new laptop. Do I get a new MacBook, or do I get a ThinkPad running Linux. I don't think I'm unique in this way. Also, at least among the people I work with and talk to, many are dropping their MacBooks for a ThinkPad, because they are migrating from macOS to Linux as Apple becomes increasingly restrictive and running Linux is just becoming the easier option. Framework is approaching the point where there is now a choice, Framework or ThinkPads. It's just that I can still get a really good used ThinkPad for like half or a third of the price.

mrheosuper 2y ago

There is Thinkpad T25 25th anniversary edition[1]. It has "modern" spec, while still having that traditional keyboard of t420 Also iirc there are projects that make Motherboard that fit in old thinkpad chassis. It has very impressive spec: 8 core Zen3 AMD cpu and 32gb ram. Some M2 slot etc. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_25th_anniversary_edition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_25th_anniversary_edit...

john2x 2y ago
I currently have this T25. But it’s mostly a gimmick. Once the coolness wore off it’s just a midrange T470 under the hood. Still trucking after 7 years though. But I can’t upgrade it to Win 11 lol
- arp242 2y ago
  Keyboard is a bit nicer, but that's probably about it. Had to use Scroll Lock just yesterday. Which, well, I can't on my x13 :-(
- notpushkin 2y ago
  You can combine it with a top-line T480 if you want! https://www.xyte.ch/mods/t25-frankenpad/ https://www.xyte.ch/mods/t25-frankenpad/ > But I can’t upgrade it to Win 11 lol Nothing of value has been lost :^) (But if you really need Win 11, there are workarounds)

nextos 2y ago

IBM-era ThinkPads were great, but Lenovo has been progressively diluting the brand, trying to copy Apple, and releasing way too many models to be able to pay attention to detail. Still, they are often the best x86 machines, but competition from Framework is more than welcome. Something that I find particularly annoying are persistent issues with noisy cooling systems. Some models are great, but others have poorly thought fans and overly aggressive firmware. Software fixes can only remedy part of the problem. I wish they stayed closer to their original ethos of high-quality utilitarian computers. Something like the 25th and 30th Anniversary Editions should be in their main stock product line, i.e. stop messing with keyboards please. The original was fine.

cosmic_cheese 2y ago

Framework’s offerings are interesting, but after having gotten used to the solid rigidity of M-series MacBooks and X1 series Thinkpads, the level of flex in the Framework 13 is a major issue for me. It’s difficult to justify for the price, plus PCBs and repeated flex stress don’t mix nicely. I think it’s time for either Framework or a third party partner to sell a new chassis that’s compatible with the FW13’s mainboard, but focuses on a more sturdy, premium feel, even if that means doing away with the modular port cards. I suspect that mainboards housed in such a chassis will fare better over time than their original housing counterparts.

mikae1 2y ago
As I see it, an aluminum slab MNT Reform Next[1] would be a better Thinkpad replacement than a Framework (from a build and reparability standpoint). [1] https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/mnt-reform-next https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/mnt-reform-next
- roywashere 2y ago
  Oh man, the MNT Reform looks _so_ awesome!
  - 0xEF 2y ago
    Except for that price. Yikes. Heck of a barrier to entry for an unproven product. I do wish them well, but as we call for more modularity in laptop design, we can't forget the core value of keeping it affordable for the masses.
    - bombcar 2y ago
      Which is why we're sadly only really going to get it if a major manufacturer decides to go Framework on us, because otherwise the economies of scale just aren't there. Or laptops get so uncommon that manufacturers have to band together and agree on standards.
    - jabl 2y ago

grudg3 2y ago

Obligatory "I can't even order Framework in my country" post. But I can get as many Thinkpads as I want.

bigpeopleareold 2y ago
Same here - can also buy 2 or 3 T480s for the price of a new framework even if they did deliver :D

rafamvc 2y ago

The second hand market is so good for Thinkpads because there were so many of them bought by businesses. Framework isn't the top choice for business.

noisy_boy 2y ago
There are plenty of well heeled techies who will pay premium for a modern machine with durability and repairability of the ThinkPads of the old.

j45 2y ago

When Frameworks first came out, there was doubt that they couldn't last a year. Or launch multiple lines. Longevity is built one step at a time. Voting with dollars only helps it become an option enough and signal to other manufacturers to consider similar ways.

linguae 2y ago

I enjoy my Framework 13 laptop; it’s great having a laptop that is user-serviceable and upgradable, and I’m keeping my eyes out on the upcoming Framework convertible laptop as a potential replacement for my aging Microsoft Surface Pro 7. With that said, I do wish the keyboard on my Framework 13 were better. It would be a wonderful to have a ThinkPad-quality keyboard, I have a ThinkPad T430 and its keyboard is one of the best chiclet-style keyboards I’ve ever used. I also like the keyboard on my old aluminum PowerBook G4, as well as the keyboard on my work-issued M3 MacBook Pro. What would be a dream, though, would be if there’s some way to fit a mechanical keyboard into a laptop.

cassepipe 2y ago
I did not expect this criticism ! I, and many others apparently, enjoy the keyboard a lot. My main criticism would be that even though it's acceptable, the chassis does not feel rugged.
- joe5150 2y ago
  Agreed particularly with respect to the top cover (though it has improved).
dahauns 2y ago
>With that said, I do wish the keyboard on my Framework 13 were better. Exactly this. I've given up hope to expect an old-school TP keyboard with its ridged concave keys providing perfect tactile feedback even when not depressing a key, but there's basically no standard laptop layout out there anymore optimized for efficient touch typing, with existing consistently grouped and offset(!) off-center key groups (4-group f-keys, pgup/pgdn/home/end cluster, arrow keys). And some key travel to go with tactile scissor keys to reduce bottoming-out would be nice. (Oh, and why I find the "tactile feedback" so important, see the wonderful "Pictures Under Glass" rant. https://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDesign/ https://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDes... Not directly related to keyboards, but the premise remains the same. Hands feel things. :) )
- 2y ago

kristopolous 2y ago

Every time i see the framework people at a conference i insist that they have to target the thinkpad users and not just the macbook people. Just remind them if you see them. They'll eventually prioritize making it happen. At every company I've worked for, tickets get promoted from the backlog if enough customers or would-be customers nag about it.

cassepipe 2y ago
Even MacBook users are used to something quite more rugged

HexPhantom 2y ago

I really hope they get there though. The idea of a modern, repairable, modular laptop that doesn't lock you into a walled garden is incredibly appealing

GolfPopper 2y ago

My only objection to the 51nb FrankenPads is that to the best of my knowledge, they take out the ExpressPort. As a bit of a data-hoarder, I use my ExpressPort for an M2 drive, and don't particularly want to give that up.

wkat4242 2y ago
The T480 motherboard they use as a base for the conversion does have NVMe support, just a weird one that's integrated in the SATA bay. There was a name for it, but I forget. Some kind of transitionary standard. But you can get a converter for that. It did have half the PCIe channels of a regular M2 slot I think. It's been a while since I had one in my hands. The T480 didn't come with an ExpressCard IIRC hence the lack of it. You need an adapter like this: https://www.google.com/search?q=ssd+m.2+caddy+lenovo https://www.google.com/search?q=ssd+m.2+caddy+lenovo

roywashere 2y ago

My new company of about 100 persons uses ThinkPads as their 'standard issue' laptops. Which I guess is great. I have a T480 privately. But modern ThinkPads are not as great as before, and I was just thinking about if the Framework might make a nice 'standard issue' laptop for the company. I guess it might be just fine!

maccard 2y ago
When would you define as “before”? I’ve had a thinkpad on and off and I’d describe the quality as consistent. People talking about old Lenovos being good quality are often talking about in the pre-IBM days which is far more likely to be nostalgia at this point.
- hkt 2y ago
  Not sure what GP means but I gather the x230 era (2012?) has a cult following. I picked one up a few years ago when a laptop died and I didn't have the cash for something new: it is still my daily driver and I'm not replacing it til it dies. By contrast, I know someone who got a T480 second hand and it lasted six months. My guess is the 2012 era was when the change happened
  - dahauns 2y ago
    It's been a gradual shift, with a few obvious changes along the way. Among a few: The keyboard switch from the old 7-row (whose pinnacle was at the x220/T420 era with double-height esc and del) to the new 6-row (with later ever decreasing key travel) to the current x9 (which is basically just a yoga keyboard with no trackpoint, no key grouping, and the loss of pgup/pgdn). Things like the modular battery options vanished. The case got flimsier over time with e.g. the magnesium rollcage first vanishing from the display, then from the base. (And no - from enterprise experience - the carbon fiber composite isn't generally "as good or better", esp. for failure modes like punctual force on the display. Or...grabbing the laptop by the display and using it to fan your BBQ, which doesn't faze my old X41 :) ).
    - 2y ago

shoo 2y ago

> enough Thinkpads on Earth to probably stretch end-to-end around the moon and back LD, average distance between Earth and Moon = 384,399,000 m [1] C = circumference of moon = 10,917,000 m R := approximate round trip distance = 2LD + 0.5*C = 774,256,500 m n = total number of thinkpads on earth <= total number of thinkpads ever manufactured = 250 million [2][2a][2b] W = width of thinkpad = 0.3366 m [3] T = total thinkpad distance = n * W <= 84,150,000 m Alas, T / R, the ratio of total thinkpad distance T to our lunar round trip distance R, is at most about 0.11 . This is with the optimistic assumption that the total number of thinkpads on earth equals the total number of thinkpads ever manufactured. A more conservative estimate might be something like n = total number of thinkpads manufactured each year * mean lifespan of a thinkpad = (12 million thinkpads / year) * (5 years lifespan) = 60 million thinkpads in good working order for a lunar round trip. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_distance [2] IBM sold 25m thinkpads before selling product line to Lenovo. By 2022, Lenovo had sold 200m thinkpads. With linear extrapolation to 2024 that gives approx 250 million thinkpads manufactured. [2a] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad [2b] https://www.forbes.com/sites/timbajarin/2022/10/05/celebrating-thinkpads-30th-anniversaryan-insiders-perspective/ [3] assume every thinkpad is a T480. https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_T480/ThinkPad_T480_Spec.PDF

xnorswap 2y ago
It won't get you to the moon, but you can squeeze out a little more distance by arranging them corner to corner.
- shoo 2y ago
  We must either increase the production rate of T480-size thinkpads by around 9x or get Lenovo to release at least one special edition extreme widescreen thinkpad specialised for lunar round trips
  - fouronnes3 2y ago
    Or move the moon closer.

janitor77swe 2y ago

> Framework laptops are wonderful, modern and (arguably?) cheaper to own in the long-term thanks to being able to replace components, particularly the entire mainboard as time progresses. That is entirely false. Replacing the mainboard itself costs the same amount of money as a new laptop (an entire device). Their component prices are on their website under "Shop Parts", so you can verify that for yourself. I can buy a brand new Ryzen 7000 series laptop for the price of replacing a Ryzen 7000 series mainboard for a Framework laptop. Their laptops are also a lot more expensive than same spec branded ones from Asus, Lenovo and Dell that have better build quality and design. I don't know where does this myth come from. The cost of replacing individual component is more expensive than replacing an entire device which people do not do because it needs repairing or often even upgrading, but because they're sick of the sight of it. You can't replace one component and extend the life of your PC another full cycle because you'll soon have to replace other components too. So when it comes to upgrading you have to consider the price of upgrading all available components to get the true cost as opposed to buying a new device. Eventually, sooner rather than later, both RAM and SSD will come soldered on, so the only thing you will be able to replace is the battery and the screen. Both which 99% users never have to replace. I am a Thinkpad user myself, have had them for both work and pleasure. Recently upgraded my old T14 for an X13 after reading and watching a lot of Framework reviews. It's just simply a gimmick, with a lot of quality issues, being sustained by having LTT name behind it.

mistercheph 2y ago
> Replacing the mainboard itself costs the same amount of money as a new laptop (an entire device). Their component prices are on their website under "Shop Parts", so you can verify that for yourself. I can buy a brand new Ryzen 7000 series laptop for the price of replacing a Ryzen 7000 series mainboard for a Framework laptop. That’s not true, you must be comparing unlike boards and machines. a 7640 mainboard is $380 (https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ryzen-7040-series?v=FRANGV0005 https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ryzen-7040-series?...) and a 7640 chassis (with no memory, ssd, or expansion bays) is $750 (https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-13-gen-amd/configuration/new https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-13-gen-amd/configurat...) Another example, the ai 7 350 mainboard is $700, and a bare chassis is $1,230.

znpy 2y ago

> 51nb's "FrankenPads" especially breathe incredible new life into old IBM and Lenovo stock. That's biased though. As soon as a 51nb motherboard dies or has any hardware failure you're back to 2008-era level of performance.

Melatonic 2y ago
Any idea how reliable those motherboards are ?

DeathArrow 2y ago

>ThinkPads are durable but every day they get older, slower and more difficult to source parts for as collectors entrench themselves and the requirements of operating systems (and the "modern web") worsen That's true for every computer. But people still buy old C64, Amiga, Atari, IBM or Apple computers.

criddell 2y ago
> But people still buy old C64, Amiga, Atari, IBM or Apple computers. Not in meaningful numbers.

DeathArrow 2y ago

>Framework laptops are wonderful, modern and (arguably?) cheaper to own in the long-term thanks to being able to replace components, particularly the entire mainboard as time progresses. They are also bulky and battery life is not great. To upgrade it you have to buy a mainboard which is quite expensive. I found that I am better by selling my old laptop and buying a new one.

unethical_ban 2y ago
I don't know about other non-mac laptops. I agree the battery life isn't anything to write home about, but it's better than my corporate windows laptop. I blame Intel/AMD/Windows for killing off proper suspend modes. But bulky? I have the Framework 13 and it's very well sized. Smaller and lighter than the 14" macbook pro and similar to my windows laptop.
- nottorp 2y ago
  > I blame Intel/AMD/Windows for killing off proper suspend modes. Holy $ALL_DEITIES! I use mac laptops, but I've recently set up a WinAMDNvidia "gaming" laptop. I just closed the lid when I was done for the day, because that's what you do with macs. In the morning there was a strong whooshing sound in my home office. Guess what, the sleeping laptop had turned its fan on. What kind of sleep mode is that that needs active cooling?

einpoklum 2y ago

> Framework laptops are wonderful No they're not. They have the sake kind of atrocious low-travel keyboards that almost-all (or all) other laptops these days have. And - for many of us - the most important piece of hardware in a laptop is the keyboard.

piokoch 2y ago

I am not sure what is so fascinating about Framework laptops. They are pretty expensive and are, in fact, one more Chinese OEM production - they are produced by Taiwanese Compal Electronics, which has factory in Kunshan (China). It is hard to build a legend around something like this. MacBooks are produced in China too (as everything), but they have that "legacy" of being a cult product from U.S.A.

nrp 2y ago
We manufacture in Taiwan, not China, and the design is ours, not Compal’s.

silisili 2y ago

I think durability on old Thinkpads is way underrated as a reason people love them. Me, as a 250ish lb giant, have stepped on one multiple times without so much as a creak. Granted, it was on accident each time and I'm sure perfect heel placement could have done the job if I tried. Even so, can Framework do the same? Can anyone else making laptops today?

dahauns 2y ago
Part of the Thinkpad sales pitch of old was literally to throw the Thinkpad on the floor and step on it, pick it up and continue the presentation. Or, as I mentioned elsewhere, to grab it by the display end and pretend to use it to fan a fire.
xaldir 2y ago
As someone who started it's career in a thinkpad only shop Indeed, old thinkpads were designed to survive a coffee spill on the keyboard and they did, and various drops (with spinning rust as storage and cfl backed screens) And when you achieve to break some part, it can be easily swapped. Oh and the documentation for that is available and very detailed.

0xEF 2y ago

Yeah, the price is the only thing that holds me back from trying a Framework 13. I have a few Thinkpad X260s which can be got on eBay for $100US. Drop in a fresh SSD and stick of 16gb memory for another $100US and you have a very capable little machine for common, daily use that suits all my needs more than adequately. If one gets damaged, I am not out too much money. I've been using two for about 4 years now, one as my daily driver at home and one that goes on the road with me. I have not needed to further upgrade either one beyond what I did initially when buying* them. So, with that in mind, I think use-case has a lot to do with whether or not someone can get away with running the more disposable cheap-but-good Thinkpad like I do. But >$800US for a Framework 13 that bends like a reed in the wind is not a smart choice for me. I really like their ethos of modularity, too, but there's just no way I'm hitting that cost anytime soon. *Note on buying Thinkpad from eBay: yes, collectors have ruined the price of some models, but not all. Lots of the X Series models are still very cheap, but please do not support sellers who are offering cheap laptops without a battery and power cable. Be patient and dig, you'll find the ones who are selling you a complete, useable machine for cheap. Unfortunately, eBay is flooded with a lot of vulture tech resellers that part perfectly good batteries from devices so they can make more money selling you both separately.

kjs3 2y ago
You hit on why I got my first used ThinkPad many years ago (a T42): it was so cheap as to be disposable. I was going on a trip that promised to be somewhat...ah...rough on my kit, and I picked up the T42 for dirt so I didn't take my new, very expensive laptop only to have it trashed (I don't remember what it was now...probably some Dell). The Dell(?) is loooong gone. The T42 made it through the trip fine, and over many years has gotten an SSD, a memory upgrade and a new screen (old one worked fine; wanted the pretty SXGA screen) and because it has a real, honest to gawd parallel port, it's still serving duty today controlling some stuff in my lab (PROM programmer, some finicky windows software, etc). It might not be a daily driver, but it gets fired up most every week to do real work.
doublepg23 2y ago
FYI- you can find 32GB DDR4 SODIMMs that’ll work with the x260 :D

M95D 2y ago

Let me say from the start that I only saw Framework laptops in pictures and I still have my old Lenovo X60 Tablet. I hate Framework laptops' design. They went to the extreme of repairability but only as a marketing tool, while the products are still e-waste trash. I looked at Framework 13 laptop as a replacement for my X60 Tablet. Let me do a comparison between them: - FW13 battery swap needs dissasembly. Can't do it while on a train/bus/airplane. - X60 battery is removed by 2 spring latches on the back - FW13 has 2 internal expansion ports (M.2, I think), both permanently occupied by storage and wifi - X60 has 2 internal expansion ports (miniPCIe): one is occupied by wifi, one is for WWAN (optional). Storage is in a separate SATA bay. - FW13 has no external expansion slots, except if you count USB as expansion - X60 has 1 external expansion (PCMCIA/Cardbus type 2) - far more robust than USB-C, and the metal case provides cooling - FW13 has 4 USB-C ports, one is permanently occupied by the power cable - X60 has 3 USB-A ports (far more robust than USB-C), while charging is a separate barrel plug (also far more robust than USB-C) - FW13 has no video output, except as a USB adapter - X60 has VGA-out directly from the GPU - FW13 has no audio outputs, except as USB sound card - X60 has preamplified headphone-out and mic-in (also has internal microphone) - FW13 has video camera - X60 does not - FW13 has stereo speakers - X60 has a single mono speaker - FW13 has no ethernet, except as a USB adapter - X60 has gigabit ethernet Other things X60T has, but FW13 doesn't: - Touchscreen with pen, some models work with finger too, some don't - great keyboard and also some extra hardware buttons such as volume, instead of key combinations - Fingerprint reader - SD card slot - Firewire - IR port, fax/modem (not much use these days) - An attachable dock (not wired like current USB docks) that can house a CD/DVD drive, or another HDD/SDD, or extra battery and has another 2 USB ports, RS232 and parallel port. - There's also an external battery module that directly connects to the docking port. Please note that the X60 is ~15 years old. This wasn't a performance comparison. So, yes, framework laptops are repaireable, but they're so crippled, there isn't much left in them to repair.

Tade0 2y ago
- FW13 has no video output, except as a USB adapter - FW13 has no audio outputs, except as USB sound card That was a conscious design decision, as you're supposed to use swappable expansion cards. Other things X60T has, but FW13 doesn't: - Fingerprint reader https://frame.work/pl/en/products/fingerprint-reader-kit?v=FRANFF0001 https://frame.work/pl/en/products/fingerprint-reader-kit?v=F... - SD card slot https://frame.work/pl/en/products/sd-expansion-card https://frame.work/pl/en/products/sd-expansion-card

RecycledEle 2y ago

If Framework had used a ComExpress type 6 module in their laptops they would have had an upgradable processor. I wish someone would build a new laptop abound a ComExpress module and all the freely-open parts from a Framework laptop.

jjice 2y ago

I love my Framework AMD 13. Coming from an old Thinkpad X1 Carbon gen 3 I got used after a few years. Excellent form factor and oh so repairable. I’ve been very satisfied with the purchase. I’m really rooting for Framework over the next decade to really establish themselves and hopefully affect some change in laptop repairability. And hell, even if they don’t, hopefully they’ll be around so I can continue to be a customer.

NikolaNovak 2y ago

Not all, but a lot of ThinkPad fans enjoy the track point. No laptop without a track point can be considered a viable alternative for me :-/ And thus, I have everything from a 14 year old t420s to my trusty t25 anniversary edition, and then a few workhorses with 8th gen Intels (x13 yoga, x1 carbon, t580) as personal and family laptops.

dagw 2y ago
As someone who once loved the track point on my old IBM ThinkPad, I've found that for some reason every track point not made by IBM sucks. Even the modern Lenovo ones are terrible, and I have no idea why.
- NikolaNovak 2y ago
  Interesting; I do find sometimes I need to go into the app and adjust the acceleration/sensitivity/speed to my liking, but even up to my current work Yoga (12th gen Intel), I used them preferentially to trackpad when on the move (ergonomic mouse when stationary). I have struggled more with Dells and HPs, but can usually get it "close enough"
  - dagw 2y ago
    To be fair, I went IBM -> Apple -> Lenovo, so it is conceivable that the track point is actually as good as it ever was, and I just got spoiled by how good the Apple trackpads are.

mock-possum 2y ago

I just can’t with the thinkpad’s keyboard layout. The left function being swapped with the ctrl key is a nonstarter for me - you can’t just put keys in the wrong place.

deleted 2y ago
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prmoustache 2y ago
You can swap them in the bios/firmware.

bdavbdav 2y ago

I’m not sure they’re there yet. I bought a FW13 as I love the ideology, but it felt cheap next to the MBP/A, for not a lot less cash. When it arrived with a failed backlight (which admittedly they immediately offered to dispatch a replacement part), it went back instead.

layer8 2y ago

And nobody is making (classic) ThinkPad-style keyboards for the Framework laptops (yet? — I'm not sure they have enough "headroom").

huslage 2y ago

Framework laptops aren't really repairable in the same way that old Thinkpads are. Maybe that's good, maybe not, but replacing an entire motherboard every 3 years isn't all that different from replacing an entire computer really.

ggpsv 2y ago
To add a data point here, my Framework laptop is 3 years old and I have no plans to change the mainboard anytime soon. Also, you don't change its motherboard, you change the mainboard (for my laptop, it's the CPU/integrated GPU + memory sockets); this is unlike changing the entire computer. Then, you can reuse the replaced mainboard as a server if you wish to. This pales with my experience using a Macbook Air whose motherboard failed. I did have to replace the entire computer.
MostlyStable 2y ago
In what way can you repair and old Thinkpad that you can't repair a framework?
numpad0 2y ago
Wait, are you saying they don't offer the full HMMs and FRU list like IBM/Lenovo did/does for ThinkPads????? IBM HMMs, or creatively named Hardware Maintenance Manuals, were written so that if all steps in the document were performed from start to end as written, the laptop would be a pile of FRUs or Field Replacement Units, so that those FRUs can be inspected, discarded, ordered, and replaced, and then the process can be done in reverse to produce a working unit. Why - I mean I think I know why - they likely don't have enough control and/or influence over parts suppliers to be able to publicly expose those data unlike the Big Blue - but why... 0: https://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/42x3550_03.pdf https://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/mobiles_pdf/... 1: https://thinkpads.com/support/hmm/hmm_pdf/42x3550_04.pdf https://thinkpads.com/support/hmm/hmm_pdf/42x3550_04.pdf
- wkat4242 2y ago
  Field repair by enterprise IT support was also part of Lenovo's business model. For framework repairability is a thing but it's not as important I guess. I had an HP that also had service manuals available. Ps Lenovo basically has two brands; the business laptops like the T, P and X ThinkPads, and the consumer stuff including some of the budget ThinkPads (I think E series). The latter don't do service manuals, have really crappy keyboards.. Just B-brand crap. They're just a consumer laptop with some thinkpad trim. Be careful with that if you think of buying one.

boomskats 2y ago

I love my x2100. It is the machine I keep coming back to, and find more reliable and enjoyable than any other I've owned (including ones that outperform it on linux, like my oled ryzen-based t14s). I've been trying to rationalise why that's the case for years - whether it's the keyboard, the trackpoint, its ability to survive my casual brutality, some nostalgic emotional/romantic aspect, etc., but recently I've kinda Stopped Worrying and just unapologetically embraced it. I've been wandering around kubecon with it for the last couple of days and getting 9-10 hours per battery and it hasn't skipped a beat. For anyone interested, there's a new project in town, the X210Ai [1]. I can't vouch for anything yet as I've not pulled the trigger myself, but I've been in touch with the vendor via whatsapp for the last couple of months, and they're legit enthusiasts. [0]: https://postimg.cc/Ty7PyKRx https://postimg.cc/Ty7PyKRx [1]: https://www.tpart.net/about-x210ai/ https://www.tpart.net/about-x210ai/

wkat4242 2y ago

Dells age really horribly though. Unlike ThinkPads (especially the IBM and early Lenovo days) I used to love my T490s even. It was a really recent model but still not bad for me. But now my work gave me a T14s and it's horrible. The keys have way less travel. The body is thinner but the screen is way thicker than the T490s's. I don't know what they're smoking but ThinkPads are dead as decent laptops.