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Waltz's team set up at least 20 Signal group chats for crises across the world
- palata 2y ago> Hughes said. “Any claim of use for classified information is 100 percent untrue.” It's great to be able to say "Signal has never, EVER been used for classified information" in a context where classified information discussed on Signal has just been leaked.
- mindslight 2y agoIt's the first line of the thirty-three dog whistle defense. The followers accept that answer as King Krasnov having simply declared that any such information isn't classified, just like he did for those boxes of files exfiltrated to his bathroom-turned-guest-library. It's the adult version of a kid going "I'm not hitting my brother I'm just swinging my arms and walking forward". And then of course if the courts actually start to disagree, the neofascists ramp up the threats for stochastic violence.
- palata 2y ago> It's the adult version of a kid going "I'm not hitting my brother I'm just swinging my arms and walking forward". I always say that adults are kids who don't have the supervision anymore. When a kid says "2 + 2 = 5" you can say "well you always fail your math exams, you obviously can't be trusted with that". When an adult says it... it becomes a "belief" and we "respectfully agree to disagree".
- from-nibly 2y agoThat's because we are too tired to argue.
- palata 2y agoI actually was in a situation where I had such a debate during Covid with someone I was in school with. I tried to take time to argue. He would show some numbers and make completely wrong conclusions. There was no way I could get him to try to listen to me. Whereas back at school, he was never arguing with me about maths given that he had bad grades and I didn't. So somehow I really feel like there is this "authority" thing missing. Now that he is an adult, he feels like his opinion about everything is valid.
- mindslight 2y agoYour comment makes me wonder if a large part of what's driving this is the proliferation of so many disparate (sub)cultures, and specifically the brain drain away from the subcultures that had been the traditional societal defaults. When you were at school, you were both part of the same social hierarchy. On the topic of math proficiency (general smartness, really), it was easy for him to perform a mental check and see that you were above him in that aspect (even if he was above you in other aspects), and so he should listen to you. But then you probably went your own way, essentially getting out of his way with him continuing to advance in that traditional subculture. So now he feels he's earned being considered closer to the top of the hierarchy, even though it's no longer a pan-society hierarchy! And then he also cannot understand where to slot you into his mental model. So you just get written off as an outside attacking force to be opposed. This also explains why they continue calling themselves "conservatives" despite gleefully working to destroy our institutions and standing in the world - what they want "conserved" is their perceived prominence of the subcultures they bought into.
- palata 2y agoThat's an interesting point of view: in a way he "doesn't know me anymore", so why would he trust me? And he has to trust me because if he doesn't understand why I am better in this specific topic (maths), then the only thing left is his belief... I once heard flat-earthers in a train. One was saying "It's like school, e.g. physics: they purposely make it such that we don't understand it to confuse us. Because we're not worse than anybody else, so we should understand, right? If nobody understands, that's because they bullshit us!". I really wanted to say "counter-example: I could understand physics at school :-)".
- krashidov 2y agoThe logic is that since they are the bosses they can dictate what is classified and what is not. So something is classified until it's mishandled, at which point it's not classified, therefore it's not mishandled. lol.
- IAmBroom 2y agoI don't doubt that's their logic, but below the office of the POTUS it isn't true. For that matter, the power of the POTUS to declassify things is part of the overall asssumed powers, not explicitly set forth in law anywhere (so far as I am aware), but increasingly supported by SCOTUS decisions. In precise, dried-ink legal terms, if I am someone entitled to read classified information, and mark my grocery list top and bottom with the appropriate signage, that stupid list actually becomes classified. Sharing it with a friend then literally becomes a federal crime. Declassification is a specified process, involving review and approval by authorities (not me), or expiration of the classified period (a default for low levels of classification - it can of course be renewed).
- AzzyHN 2y agoTrump has maintained he has the power to declassify things with his mind alone, so I'm sure this is entirely true. Whatever they were talking about, bam, it's no longer classified. At least they're using Signal, I guess. Can you imagine if this leaked and they were using something like Telegram!?
- palata 2y ago> Can you imagine if this leaked and they were using something like Telegram!? That would be a lot more fun :-). But I'm happy it's Signal: they apparently got a ton of downloads from all the attention and they deserve it.
- int_19h 2y agoThe upside is that we now know what people with basically unrestricted access to the inner workings of the US surveillance state machine consider the most secure way to evade it.
- TacticalCoder 2y ago> Two of the people said they were in or have direct knowledge of at least 20 such chats. All four said they saw instances of sensitive information being discussed. Are they adding just everybody under the sun in these chats or only those who think wouldn't be traitors? For example I can understand one snitch being added by mistake. But four snitches? That's a lot of snitches in my book.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- acidmath 2y ago> All four were granted anonymity because they were not authorized to publicly discuss the private chats. Anyone with access to NSA plus various subcontractors' toolsets can "unmask" these people in like five minutes. Musk may not be "tech genius" some of the media makes him out to be, but he knows enough about how the internet and computers work (or has advisors who do) to figure that out.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- skybrian 2y agoI'm doubtful because the government leaks like a sieve. Maybe it's not that easy?
- bsimpson 2y agoOne nice side effect of Signal's importance for governmental/military use is that it helps keep it free for civilian use. They can't mandate a backdoor for something other parts of the government rely on to be secure. I once heard a great anecdote to that effect, and to my embarrassment I can't recall the details to repeat here. (And yes, I understand that there are limits on what is appropriate to share with civilian hardware on a civilian network, but the truth stands that part of the reason there's not a push to breach encryption in the US like there is in the UK is because Signal is relied upon even by the government when they need a private channel on civilian hardware.)
- deelowe 2y ago> They can't mandate a backdoor for something other parts of the government rely on to be secure. Why not? It wouldn't be difficult to have a backdoor in the civilian use-case that's disabled for government use.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- richardw 2y agoNow the task of an adversary is to simply enable the backdoor rather than create it from scratch. The people using Signal for this are doing it on their own devices, so now you have multiple problems. Eg how to get non technical people to know when they’re using the civilian version. Alternative crazy universe: Just use the tech that was created for the government and does all the right things.
- moshun 2y agoBut then you’re required to archive the discussions for the public to access. That’s much worse for these people than foreign agents (and journalists apparently) listening in and taking notes.
- deelowe 2y agoI'm not defending the use of signal. That said this strawman is very weak. It's not uncommon to have two versions of the same app on your phone these days. My Google drive instance changes from personal to company based on my identity. This isn't hard to implement securely these days.
- almosthere 2y agosounds like an employee of signal
- chatmasta 2y agoThe CIA director - excessively biased as he may be - testified last week that Signal is a CIA-approved application that was preloaded onto the device he was issued on his first day. He said this practice extends back to at least the Biden Administration. Given this, and assuming it’s true, I wonder to what degree a controversy can be predicated on usage of an approved application on an approved Government device. I’m sure there is plenty to nitpick around the edges (“classified vs. top secret,” “managed device vs. personal device,” “expiring messages,” etc.), but the fundamental transgression cannot be “using Signal.” More importantly, I just don’t think people care — beyond pearl-clutching, tribal narratives and palace intrigue — about the safety of “classified data.” And the sad part is that it’s obfuscating the real story, which is the federal government’s seemingly indiscriminate bombing of Yemeni residences in an attempt to execute a mildly infamous terrorist. It’s the banal tone with which the government officials discuss it – like it’s a new product launch or a weekly check-in meeting – that we should find disturbing. Nobody cares about the communication medium; if anything, we should wish for _more_ transparency and visibility into discussions like this… (Also, it’s quite an endorsement of Signal.)
- LgWoodenBadger 2y agoYou know what else comes preinstalled on phones? The phone, sms, and mail apps.
- gkolli 2y agoI'd say the 'nitpicking around the edges' is actually incredibly important, but as you also said, people don't care. Yes, all the attention is on the use of Signal, and not the bombing/killing innocent Yemenis to score some political points.
- lyu07282 2y agoThe bombing/killing of innocent Yemenis can't be politicized because everyone agrees with it, nobody can score political points from it if everyone is in agreement.
- diffxx 2y ago
- internet_points 2y agoWere they following Elon's advice? https://www.dailywire.com/news/elon-musk-two-word-tweet-sends-wrong-stock-soaring-438 https://www.dailywire.com/news/elon-musk-two-word-tweet-send... :)
- ada1981 2y agoThe reason for this is simply to avoid discovery / FOIA requests, since messages delete. Of courses it’s illegal, but the entire administration is operating as a criminal enterprise / an extension of all previous administrations, but in a way the most impressive disregard for rule of law we’ve seen.
- malcolmgreaves 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ada1981 2y agoBurin' Karma to speak the truth here.
- Perceval 2y agoFOIA doesn't apply to the Executive Office of the President. The NSC is covered by the Presidential Records Act, but its records are not subject to FOIA requests.
- lenerdenator 2y agoAny time you read anything having to do with this administration, remember: The behavior will continue until an effective negative stimulus is given. Then immediately stop reading. The details don't matter at this point.
- jfengel 2y agoIt has to be a stimulus they feel as negative. Losing office is about the only unarguable one. Barring a coup, that isn't happening any time soon. Practically any other stimulus will be perceived as positive.
- delusional 2y agoI think what the commenter says is more dire than that. Even after this administration, this is going to keep happening until a major event happens. It's not just about the ghouls in there now, it's about the ghouls that will follow.
- simonh 2y agoA lot of people seem to think this is an anomaly, but they thought that about the first Trump term. Fundamentally Trump is a symptom. When he goes, all the voters that voted for him will still be there, and they’ll still have all the reasons they voted for him.
- throwawaygmbno 2y agoIt is more dire than that. The south was basically completely forgiven for starting the civil war and fighting for slavery. Then as soon as they were given a little bit of leeway they enacted Jim Crow laws, began erecting statues of the losers of the Civil War, and started the KKK to drive out black people they could no longer use as slaves. Many of the people you see in films and photos furiously protesting the civil rights act, picketing with signs against MLK Jr, lynching people during that time, putting glass in the seats of children because the schools were forced to end segregation, etc are still alive. Trump was grown and had started college when the Civil Rights act passed. Its time to start just forgiving them because they never seem to forget.
- techterrier 2y agoI know we've all been talking about how 'history is back' in terms of geopolitics not ending like some thought in the 90s. But if a huge proportion of goverment communications is taking place on self destructing messages rather than minuted meetings and filed paperwork etc, perhaps history has ended after all.
- trhway 2y agoHistory has always been what the winner makes of it, and with self-destructing messages that winner's task just got much easier.
- kelipso 2y agoThere are a ton of face-to-face conversations between officials that don't get recorded. Why is text messaging so special? Are their phone calls recorded? I don't think they are.
- mdhb 2y agoBoth face to face meetings and phone calls have dedicated note takers. This level of ignorance is truly breathtaking
- kelipso 2y agoFor important meetings, sure. But not for unofficial conversations or meetings. You really think they are being tracked and recorded everywhere they go? You are breathtakingly delusional.
- codedokode 2y agoI wonder people who criticize the government for using Signal, you only discuss work using company-approved applications? Also why do they use Signal and not Telegram, which probably has more useful features like spoilers, paid messages, animated emojis etc.
- cafard 2y agoNo, when I am discussing military actions, I write postcards instead. But please note that I use Pig Latin for extra security.
- samgranieri 2y agoI use Pony Express
- Scubabear68 2y agoPig Latin with ROT13 encoding, of course!
- sorcerer-mar 2y agoMy work doesn't involve sending American pilots over enemy territory or relaying information from intelligence assets inside terrorist organizations. Is this a serious question?
- watwut 2y agoI actually do. There is literally zero reason to not do so ... even ignoring security.
- crazygringo 2y agoExactly. My work-provided chat app and email automatically contains the whole company's contacts. And the messages show up on people's work devices. If I wanted to use a personal chat or personal email, I'd need to know their personal details, or copy-paste their work info, it would confuse which accounts they reply to... it would make no sense at all. I keep my work convos and personal convos separate not just because it's company policy, but it's 100x easier for me.
- jordanpg 2y agoI keep thinking that the real story about this Signal stuff is that whatever authorized government equipment/software they’re supposed to be using probably just sucks. Onerous, old, too much authentication, password silliness, biometrics, auto logout after 2 minutes, etc etc. Do not mean to downplay the mistake (at a minimum, the SecDef should suffer the same fate a lower ranking member of the DoD would for reasons of military order), but humans will be humans. Dealing with security sucks and involves trade offs and compromises.
- martythemaniak 2y agoNo, the government has not had issues running military operations using its existing comms. The actual story is that they used Signal on purpose to bypass required government record-keeping laws.
- alaxhn 2y agoCan you please help us to understand why you believe the military has had *no* issues using existing comms? At face value this is an extraordinary claim and it flies in the face of examples of friendly fire such as https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj30zk1jnmno https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cj30zk1jnmno. I think the strongest possible statement would be "military comms are equal to or better than civilian alternatives with the exception that they do not bypass government record keeping laws" but I'm mostly unaware of what the military uses to communicate so it's difficult for me to accept this at face value with an explanation of the existing systems and their capabilities. Some government software and processes are not pleasant to deal with such as the process of obtaining a green card so I don't really fault people for being skeptical of the existing systems without evidence of their robustness.
- guelo 2y agoI would say two things. 1) security inherintly is annoying, the more secure something is the more it sucks to use. Military communication channels have to withstand the most powerful attacks in the world, everyone, Russians Chinese Europeans Israelis, would all love to get access. So these have to be extremely secure and thus annoying to use channels. 2) their are laws about storing government communications which are built in to the official channels. Trumpists are suspiciously intentionally breaking these laws.
- nappy-doo 2y agoWell, it's clear this was leaked so they can throw Waltz to the wolves. "He was a rogue employee, and he is the only one who did this." I am not conspiratorially minded, but I bet this was because Waltz had Jeffrey Goldberg's number. I bet Waltz leaked things to Goldberg in the past, and this is the Trump administration cutting ties with him in the most "sleep with the fishes" way possible.
- mdhb 2y agoThat theory really doesn’t work. It’s not a situation where one person went rouge and did something. The thing about a group chat is that it’s literally by definition a group activity and that particular group now includes: 1. The head of the CIA 2. The secretary of defence 3. The vice president 4. The director of national intelligence 5. The White House chief of staff 6. Chief of Staff for the Secretary of the Treasury 7. Acting Chief of Staff for the Director of National Intelligence, and nominee for National Counterterrorism Center Director. 8. The Secretary of State Plus a bunch of others including random trump political allies like Steven miller and witkoff, a journalist and an as yet unidentified person known only as “Jacob”. But they collectively got together, and decided repeatedly to do this over 30 different occasions in just this story alone. But don’t let anyone try to convince you this was some single persons problem, this was the absolute textbook definition of a conspiracy at the highest levels of government to knowingly and repeatedly violate the law with regards to both handling classified information and around government record keeping laws. And this line they are trying to spin about signal was somehow approved for use is here in black and white proven to be wrong with the NSA making it clear there was a known vulnerability in the platform and it wasn’t even approved for unclassified but official use communications as recently as February 2025: https://www.scribd.com/document/843124910/NSA-full https://www.scribd.com/document/843124910/NSA-full
- nappy-doo 2y agoDoes this administration need to make sense?
- Cpoll 2y ago> throw Waltz to the wolves. Except they forgot to actually throw him to the wolves? Or will that come later somehow?
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- gsibble 2y ago[flagged]
- saagarjha 2y agoLooking at your comments, I don’t think you actually believe this.
- mdhb 2y agoChoosing to click on it so you can be mad is really a you problem.
- ozozozd 2y agoYou can pull yourself by the bootstraps and click on other stories. Don’t expect others to do stuff for you. Although I suspect you want the story not discussed, in the name of free speech I assume?
- skeptrune 2y agoI'm really surprised that these folks go with Signal over something like Element or another Matrix client. Element/Matrix is already used in other places within the Government and has a better UX for team collaboration while maintaining high standards of encryption, so you would think that would be the default.
- remarkEon 2y agoWhat is supposed to be the default, though? Presumably not something that goes on your phone, right? That said I’m not sure how leaders are supposed to quickly collaborate across time and space anymore. Not every location has a SCIF, but I suppose that’s the high bar we should hold.
- mmooss 2y ago> high standards of encryption Security is far more than that and Signal does the 'far more'. Every independent security expert (I can think of) recommends Signal for security, including CISA, and now the CIA, NSC, etc. One security pundit, I think Schneier, said that focusing on encryption is like putting a titanium door on your house and saying it's secure. Yes, nobody can damage that door, but there are windows, hinges, a lock to pick, the chimney, remote listening devices, tracking Internet usage, searching your garbage, ...