11 ms·

> Most of the other examples in the article also apply, but to be honest I've been using GNOME in parallel for years now and I consider it to be my "forever des

> Most of the other examples in the article also apply, but to be honest I've been using GNOME in parallel for years now and I consider it to be my "forever desktop" if PC hardware can ever match Apple Silicon (or, most likely, if I want something that is _just a computer_). I'm there as well. I've been really enjoying desktop Linux lately, but I can't go back to a non-Apple laptop at this point. There's just nothing else on the market that comes close, they all make some tradeoff I'm not willing to make - either screen, speakers, keyboard, heat/battery life/fan noise, touchpad, etc. Apple is the only one that has the entire package. There's Asahi, but no thunderbolt yet and I'm not sure the future of that project with the lead burning out and quitting. I just want an Apple Silicon-esque laptop, no trade offs on components, that runs Linux, and there's no OEM out there that's offering that experience. So, until that happens I'm staying on mac, and even with declining quality, it's not all that bad compared to the alternatives yet. I've learned to mostly work around/ignore the odd bugs.

rcarmo 2y ago
I have some hope that Framework and AMD can fix some of those issues. Would love to try out their new desktop (because it's a simpler, more tightly integrated thing) and replace my Mac mini -- then wait for Linux power management to improve.
- nextos 2y ago
  Linux power management is pretty good. The problem is that defaults favor desktop and server performance. On a MacBook Air 11, my custom Linux setup and Mac OS had the same battery autonomy, despite Safari being much more energy efficient. The real problem is that, just like the grandparent post pointed out, Apple's software quality has been declining. The Tiger to Snow Leopard epoch was incredible. Apps were simple, skeumorphic, and robust. Right now, the whole system feels a lot less coherent and robustness has declined. IMHO, there are not so many extra features worth adding. They should focus on making all software robust and secure. Robustness should come from better languages that are safe by construction. Apple can afford to invest on this due to their vertical integration.
  - MichaelZuo 2y ago
    What’s the actual argument that will credibly convince the top leaders of Apple, to push fixing MacOS up the list of priorities? Because right now it’s clearly so far down, beneath dozens of other priorities, that expecting it to just happen one day seems futile.
    - datadrivenangel 2y ago
      It's all their OS software. The Messages app on 18.3 will just... not open the menu to send a photo attachment about ~10% of the time now...
      - tracerbulletx 2y ago
        Ya and it’s something in maybe the top 3 of most used user actions. Really indefensible
      - what 2y ago
        I’m pretty sure the touch target only covers the text label. Tap anywhere other than the text labels and it does nothing but close the menu. Really bizarre.
    - nextos 2y ago
      IMHO, Mac OS X contributed decisively towards making Apple cool, which was followed by lots of boutique apps and the success of iOS. Loosing that critical mass of developers, even if it's a tiny userbase, would worry me if I was a top leader of Apple.
      - yyyk 2y ago
        Apple has had a contemptuous attitude towards developers since.. the App Store? when the iPhone was out? The last two decades? They don't seem to care about this.
        yunwal 2y ago
- canpan 2y ago
  Currently also looking at Framework+AMD. I want Mac hardware but Linux software. The other makers build quality is horrendous. Especially in the 13inch segment which is my favorite. Using a pretty old laptop because there is no replacement right now. The new Ryzen AI looks really interesting! Sadly there is no Framework shop for me to look at it and they not ship to Japan..
  - adastra22 2y ago
    Asahi?
    - canpan 2y ago
      Yeah, I heard good things about it. I do a lot of gamey development stuff and x64 makes that easier. But Asahi seems to be catching up a lot recently, maybe I should look at it again! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41799068 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41799068
      - MillironX 2y ago
        Asahi is an adventure. I am in the same camp where I got a MacBook for the hardware, but am really a Linux guy. I got really excited when the fex/muvm patches came out for Asahi, and switched to mainly booting it for a couple months. 80% of what I needed to do worked, but that 20% still wasn't there. It was mainly the little things too: 1. Display output from USB-C didn't work 2. Couldn't run Zotero 3. Couldn't compile Java bioinformatics tools 4. Container architecture mismatches led to catastrophic and hard-to-diagnose bugs There were things that worked better, too (better task management apps, and working gamepad support come to mind). Overall, even though I only needed those things once or twice a week, the blockers added up and I erased my Asahi partition in the end. I really appreciate the strides the Asahi project has made (no really, it's tremendous!), and while I would love to say that Linux lets me be most productive, features like Rosetta2 are really integrated that much better into MacOS so that I can't help but feel that Asahi is getting the worst of both worlds right now. I'll probably try again this summer and see what has developed.
  - 2y ago
- onli 2y ago
  What dou you mean with more integrated? It is a regular desktop PC with an apu (like is totally common for office PCs, just bigger) and soldered instead of upgradeable ram. It would be kind of funny, but also very sad, if Apple guys mistook the copying of apple's worst behaviour - producing throwaway devices - as a sign of quality. Though I think we are there for years now with phones, I wouldn't expect such thinking here.
  - rcarmo 2y ago
    It is fully designed around the limitations of that particular APU and makes the best of it, without being a generic motherboard.
    - onli 2y ago
      It is "integrated" in the way that the processor is an APU that has specific memory bus requirements. That's all. It is not an integrated software-hardware system that is finetuned, and that board is not any better than a a generic motherboard would be for a regular processor. My point is that this system is not integrated in the way apple fans usually define the word. I'd claim it is not integrated at all. It is a regular PC (but with soldered ram), which is exactly like framework announced it. There should be no need to sprinkle some apple marketing bs on that to make it attractive.
  - bolognafairy 2y ago
    I really wish everyone would stop entertaining these borderline crackpot hypotheticals that all rely on the notion of “those damn Apple dummies not getting it!” It’s absurd.
    - onli 2y ago
      Thanks, what a nice characterization. As someone who actually studied human computer interaction, and since I had to work with borderline unuseable macs multiple times in my career now, plus as someone seeing the utter failure of relatives in just using an iPhone (bought since "it is so much easier", now not even able to call from the car system since it is so buggy), the Apple popularity is absolutely a case where you have to look at external factors like social status. And if that translates to "the users are dummies" to you, then that's your interpretation. Plus yes, translating marketing/status concepts like a bogus "integrated" status absolutely is interesting, thus my intent to clarify whether that is really happening here (plus some criticism, admittedly). Probably not worth it going further into this though, it will only derail.
_0xdd 2y ago
This really is exactly how I feel. There are too many tradeoffs to switch to non-Apple hardware at this point. I'd love to run Linux/BSD full-time, as many of the apps that I frequently use on my Mac are FOSS (e.g., R, PyCharm, darktable, etc.) I've been a Mac user since 2002, and Mac OS X served as my gateway to the Linux/BSD world (that, and a short-lived use of RH 6.2 on an old Dell laptop). IMO, macOS really does need a Tiger/Snow Leopard-esque release, but I'm not sure the vast majority of macOS users would even appreciate such a release.
ToucanLoucan 2y ago
Also while Apples software quality has definitely diminished over the years, Windows in the same period has utterly CRATERED. Like I get along fine with 11 for my gaming PC but with every single update one feature or another becomes notably broken.
- rcarmo 2y ago
  One word: Bazzite.
  - hyperhello 2y ago
    That’s not a word
    - fsckboy 2y ago
      "That's" is two words, contracted.
    - throwaway2037 2y ago
      Wiki tells me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazzite_Linux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazzite_Linux > Bazzite is named after the mineral, as Fedora Atomic Desktops once had a mineral naming scheme. More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazzite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazzite > Bazzite is a beryllium scandium cyclosilicate mineral with chemical formula Be3Sc2Si6O18.
  - devilsdata 2y ago
    Fedora atomic distributions in general are great. I recommend Bluefin-dx over Bazzite (they’re both GNOME-based Fedora Atomic from the same group— universal blue) for developers, because it’s really easy to install the packages that Bazzite gives you, and it comes pre-installed with Docker.
    - rcarmo 2y ago
      I use Bluefin-dx as well, but pointed out Bazzite due to the mention of gaming. It's been rock solid for me for that use case.
bigyabai 2y ago
Your loss. I haven't been able to tolerate the MacOS experience since Catalina, running GNOME with a Magic Trackpad has felt head-and-shoulders better for the past 3 years at least. Apple Silicon is neat but was never an option for native development in my workflows anyways. The software matters more to me, and MacOS has been sliding down the subscription slopware slope for years now. I am perfectly happy to use last-gen hardware from Ebay if it runs an OS that isn't begging me to pay for subscriptions and "developer fees" annually. My dignity as a human is well worth it.
miunau 2y ago
Why not start supporting Asahi financially, if you aren't already?
queuebert 2y ago
As a former Mac user, I'm really happy with my System76 linux laptops. The only tradeoff is the terrible built-in speakers. My Lemur is lighter and has better battery life than my Macbook Air and has been bulletproof despite my ill treatment. Each of my Macs, however, have had various hardware failures or the famous keyboard recall on the horrible touchbar Macbook Pro. I also prefer matte screens to glossy, so that's a win for me, but ymmv.
- x3n0ph3n3 2y ago
  The screen quality is why I didn't get a system76 laptop the last time I did a refresh a couple years ago.
- rofrol 2y ago
  I have found this old comment: * Battery life is a lie, especially since it drains almost as much battery closed as it does open. ... Overall, I think I am probably going to switch back to a macbook after this, not being able to go a day without charging and your laptop always being on low battery is a bit anxiety inducing. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38206173 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38206173
  - queuebert 2y ago
    They must have a bug, because my System76 laptops drain way less with the lid closed than my Macbooks.
wegfawefgawefg 2y ago
i used to run debian on an intel macbook air. regular debian. was pretty nice.
bloppe 2y ago
The newer XPS 13 comes with snapdragon x elite now (Qualcomm's answer to Apple silicon). Curious if anybody here runs Linux on one of those
- toomim 2y ago
  It's still waiting for good linux support.
- rcarmo 2y ago
  That is highly unlikely to happen in the near future (say 2 years).
- jug 2y ago
  I feel like this is the first real step towards a Mac like experience on a Linux system.
sensanaty 2y ago
My ideal laptop would be the macbook trackpad, monitor and battery life stuck inside any thinkpad. Or just anything non MacOS, even Windows, in the macbook. I despise MacOS with every fiber of my being, but the hardware is damned good.
- briandear 2y ago
  Windows is far worse.
pjmlp 2y ago
The reason that keeps me on Windows, is that you left out of your list gaming and 3D graphics on laptops. Metal isn't really on pair with Vulkan and DirectX in terms of relevance for graphics programming, the M chips aren't up to NVidia ecosystem, SYCL, the two major compute APIs for any kind of relevant GPGPU workloads, and thus don't really matter. And gaming, well, even though all major engines support Metal, there is a reason DirectX porting kit is now a thing. So why pay more for a lesser experience, and then there is the whole issue macOS doesn't have native support for containers, like Windows does (their own ones), and WSL is better integrated and easier to use than Virtualization Framework.
- WD-42 2y ago
  Gaming is pretty great on Linux now. I just finished a little Elden ring session and it still blows my mind that when I close the game my Linux desktop is there behind it. No more dual booting, hopefully will never need windows for anything ever again.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    You mean translating Windows and DirectX APIs is great, there is hardly a Linux gaming ecosystem. Proton is the acknowledgment of Valve's failure to entice game studios, already targeting Vulkan/OpenGL ES/OpenSL on Android NDK, Switch (which has OpenGL 4.6/Vulkan support), or on PlayStation (Orbis OS being a FreeBSD fork) to target GNU/Linux. I rather have the real deal, not translations.
    - ubercow13 2y ago
      When I was gaming on Linux, every game with a native version worked better using the Windows version in proton. I think the only exception was Factorio.
    - WD-42 2y ago
      Strange take. Proton is an acknowledgment that the windows apis are the de facto for gaming. Not sure why the runtime matters. Some games ever run better. Not sure why that’s not the ”real deal” but whatever I’m glad you’re happy with your spyware gaming OS.
edwinjones 2y ago
Not quite what you're after but if you want a fanless option that runs full linux and doesn't use much battery, the new argon 40 CM5 laptop that's being built looks like it could be viable as long as you'd be happy with that much of a drop in performance and a few pi based niggles (No USB C video, only one pcie lane for the SSD, etc.) https://liliputing.com/argon40-is-making-a-raspberry-pi-cm5-powered-laptop/ https://liliputing.com/argon40-is-making-a-raspberry-pi-cm5-...
jlundberg 2y ago
I would highly recommend giving a virtualized arm Linux installation a go, using the built in Apple frameworks who are blazingly fast. Have a look at this sample code: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/creating-and-running-a-linux-virtual-machine https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/cre...

rcarmo 2y ago

I have some hope that Framework and AMD can fix some of those issues. Would love to try out their new desktop (because it's a simpler, more tightly integrated thing) and replace my Mac mini -- then wait for Linux power management to improve.

nextos 2y ago
Linux power management is pretty good. The problem is that defaults favor desktop and server performance. On a MacBook Air 11, my custom Linux setup and Mac OS had the same battery autonomy, despite Safari being much more energy efficient. The real problem is that, just like the grandparent post pointed out, Apple's software quality has been declining. The Tiger to Snow Leopard epoch was incredible. Apps were simple, skeumorphic, and robust. Right now, the whole system feels a lot less coherent and robustness has declined. IMHO, there are not so many extra features worth adding. They should focus on making all software robust and secure. Robustness should come from better languages that are safe by construction. Apple can afford to invest on this due to their vertical integration.
- MichaelZuo 2y ago
  What’s the actual argument that will credibly convince the top leaders of Apple, to push fixing MacOS up the list of priorities? Because right now it’s clearly so far down, beneath dozens of other priorities, that expecting it to just happen one day seems futile.
  - datadrivenangel 2y ago
    It's all their OS software. The Messages app on 18.3 will just... not open the menu to send a photo attachment about ~10% of the time now...
    - tracerbulletx 2y ago
      Ya and it’s something in maybe the top 3 of most used user actions. Really indefensible
    - what 2y ago
      I’m pretty sure the touch target only covers the text label. Tap anywhere other than the text labels and it does nothing but close the menu. Really bizarre.
  - nextos 2y ago
    IMHO, Mac OS X contributed decisively towards making Apple cool, which was followed by lots of boutique apps and the success of iOS. Loosing that critical mass of developers, even if it's a tiny userbase, would worry me if I was a top leader of Apple.
    - yyyk 2y ago
      Apple has had a contemptuous attitude towards developers since.. the App Store? when the iPhone was out? The last two decades? They don't seem to care about this.
      - yunwal 2y ago
canpan 2y ago
Currently also looking at Framework+AMD. I want Mac hardware but Linux software. The other makers build quality is horrendous. Especially in the 13inch segment which is my favorite. Using a pretty old laptop because there is no replacement right now. The new Ryzen AI looks really interesting! Sadly there is no Framework shop for me to look at it and they not ship to Japan..
- adastra22 2y ago
  Asahi?
  - canpan 2y ago
    Yeah, I heard good things about it. I do a lot of gamey development stuff and x64 makes that easier. But Asahi seems to be catching up a lot recently, maybe I should look at it again! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41799068 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41799068
    - MillironX 2y ago
      Asahi is an adventure. I am in the same camp where I got a MacBook for the hardware, but am really a Linux guy. I got really excited when the fex/muvm patches came out for Asahi, and switched to mainly booting it for a couple months. 80% of what I needed to do worked, but that 20% still wasn't there. It was mainly the little things too: 1. Display output from USB-C didn't work 2. Couldn't run Zotero 3. Couldn't compile Java bioinformatics tools 4. Container architecture mismatches led to catastrophic and hard-to-diagnose bugs There were things that worked better, too (better task management apps, and working gamepad support come to mind). Overall, even though I only needed those things once or twice a week, the blockers added up and I erased my Asahi partition in the end. I really appreciate the strides the Asahi project has made (no really, it's tremendous!), and while I would love to say that Linux lets me be most productive, features like Rosetta2 are really integrated that much better into MacOS so that I can't help but feel that Asahi is getting the worst of both worlds right now. I'll probably try again this summer and see what has developed.
- 2y ago
onli 2y ago
What dou you mean with more integrated? It is a regular desktop PC with an apu (like is totally common for office PCs, just bigger) and soldered instead of upgradeable ram. It would be kind of funny, but also very sad, if Apple guys mistook the copying of apple's worst behaviour - producing throwaway devices - as a sign of quality. Though I think we are there for years now with phones, I wouldn't expect such thinking here.
- rcarmo 2y ago
  It is fully designed around the limitations of that particular APU and makes the best of it, without being a generic motherboard.
  - onli 2y ago
    It is "integrated" in the way that the processor is an APU that has specific memory bus requirements. That's all. It is not an integrated software-hardware system that is finetuned, and that board is not any better than a a generic motherboard would be for a regular processor. My point is that this system is not integrated in the way apple fans usually define the word. I'd claim it is not integrated at all. It is a regular PC (but with soldered ram), which is exactly like framework announced it. There should be no need to sprinkle some apple marketing bs on that to make it attractive.
- bolognafairy 2y ago
  I really wish everyone would stop entertaining these borderline crackpot hypotheticals that all rely on the notion of “those damn Apple dummies not getting it!” It’s absurd.
  - onli 2y ago
    Thanks, what a nice characterization. As someone who actually studied human computer interaction, and since I had to work with borderline unuseable macs multiple times in my career now, plus as someone seeing the utter failure of relatives in just using an iPhone (bought since "it is so much easier", now not even able to call from the car system since it is so buggy), the Apple popularity is absolutely a case where you have to look at external factors like social status. And if that translates to "the users are dummies" to you, then that's your interpretation. Plus yes, translating marketing/status concepts like a bogus "integrated" status absolutely is interesting, thus my intent to clarify whether that is really happening here (plus some criticism, admittedly). Probably not worth it going further into this though, it will only derail.

_0xdd 2y ago

This really is exactly how I feel. There are too many tradeoffs to switch to non-Apple hardware at this point. I'd love to run Linux/BSD full-time, as many of the apps that I frequently use on my Mac are FOSS (e.g., R, PyCharm, darktable, etc.) I've been a Mac user since 2002, and Mac OS X served as my gateway to the Linux/BSD world (that, and a short-lived use of RH 6.2 on an old Dell laptop). IMO, macOS really does need a Tiger/Snow Leopard-esque release, but I'm not sure the vast majority of macOS users would even appreciate such a release.

ToucanLoucan 2y ago

Also while Apples software quality has definitely diminished over the years, Windows in the same period has utterly CRATERED. Like I get along fine with 11 for my gaming PC but with every single update one feature or another becomes notably broken.

rcarmo 2y ago
One word: Bazzite.
- hyperhello 2y ago
  That’s not a word
  - fsckboy 2y ago
    "That's" is two words, contracted.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    Wiki tells me: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazzite_Linux https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazzite_Linux > Bazzite is named after the mineral, as Fedora Atomic Desktops once had a mineral naming scheme. More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazzite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bazzite > Bazzite is a beryllium scandium cyclosilicate mineral with chemical formula Be3Sc2Si6O18.
- devilsdata 2y ago
  Fedora atomic distributions in general are great. I recommend Bluefin-dx over Bazzite (they’re both GNOME-based Fedora Atomic from the same group— universal blue) for developers, because it’s really easy to install the packages that Bazzite gives you, and it comes pre-installed with Docker.
  - rcarmo 2y ago
    I use Bluefin-dx as well, but pointed out Bazzite due to the mention of gaming. It's been rock solid for me for that use case.

bigyabai 2y ago

Your loss. I haven't been able to tolerate the MacOS experience since Catalina, running GNOME with a Magic Trackpad has felt head-and-shoulders better for the past 3 years at least. Apple Silicon is neat but was never an option for native development in my workflows anyways. The software matters more to me, and MacOS has been sliding down the subscription slopware slope for years now. I am perfectly happy to use last-gen hardware from Ebay if it runs an OS that isn't begging me to pay for subscriptions and "developer fees" annually. My dignity as a human is well worth it.

miunau 2y ago

Why not start supporting Asahi financially, if you aren't already?

queuebert 2y ago

As a former Mac user, I'm really happy with my System76 linux laptops. The only tradeoff is the terrible built-in speakers. My Lemur is lighter and has better battery life than my Macbook Air and has been bulletproof despite my ill treatment. Each of my Macs, however, have had various hardware failures or the famous keyboard recall on the horrible touchbar Macbook Pro. I also prefer matte screens to glossy, so that's a win for me, but ymmv.

x3n0ph3n3 2y ago
The screen quality is why I didn't get a system76 laptop the last time I did a refresh a couple years ago.
rofrol 2y ago
I have found this old comment: * Battery life is a lie, especially since it drains almost as much battery closed as it does open. ... Overall, I think I am probably going to switch back to a macbook after this, not being able to go a day without charging and your laptop always being on low battery is a bit anxiety inducing. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38206173 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38206173
- queuebert 2y ago
  They must have a bug, because my System76 laptops drain way less with the lid closed than my Macbooks.

wegfawefgawefg 2y ago

i used to run debian on an intel macbook air. regular debian. was pretty nice.

bloppe 2y ago

The newer XPS 13 comes with snapdragon x elite now (Qualcomm's answer to Apple silicon). Curious if anybody here runs Linux on one of those

toomim 2y ago
It's still waiting for good linux support.
rcarmo 2y ago
That is highly unlikely to happen in the near future (say 2 years).
jug 2y ago
I feel like this is the first real step towards a Mac like experience on a Linux system.

sensanaty 2y ago

My ideal laptop would be the macbook trackpad, monitor and battery life stuck inside any thinkpad. Or just anything non MacOS, even Windows, in the macbook. I despise MacOS with every fiber of my being, but the hardware is damned good.

briandear 2y ago
Windows is far worse.

pjmlp 2y ago

The reason that keeps me on Windows, is that you left out of your list gaming and 3D graphics on laptops. Metal isn't really on pair with Vulkan and DirectX in terms of relevance for graphics programming, the M chips aren't up to NVidia ecosystem, SYCL, the two major compute APIs for any kind of relevant GPGPU workloads, and thus don't really matter. And gaming, well, even though all major engines support Metal, there is a reason DirectX porting kit is now a thing. So why pay more for a lesser experience, and then there is the whole issue macOS doesn't have native support for containers, like Windows does (their own ones), and WSL is better integrated and easier to use than Virtualization Framework.

WD-42 2y ago
Gaming is pretty great on Linux now. I just finished a little Elden ring session and it still blows my mind that when I close the game my Linux desktop is there behind it. No more dual booting, hopefully will never need windows for anything ever again.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  You mean translating Windows and DirectX APIs is great, there is hardly a Linux gaming ecosystem. Proton is the acknowledgment of Valve's failure to entice game studios, already targeting Vulkan/OpenGL ES/OpenSL on Android NDK, Switch (which has OpenGL 4.6/Vulkan support), or on PlayStation (Orbis OS being a FreeBSD fork) to target GNU/Linux. I rather have the real deal, not translations.
  - ubercow13 2y ago
    When I was gaming on Linux, every game with a native version worked better using the Windows version in proton. I think the only exception was Factorio.
  - WD-42 2y ago
    Strange take. Proton is an acknowledgment that the windows apis are the de facto for gaming. Not sure why the runtime matters. Some games ever run better. Not sure why that’s not the ”real deal” but whatever I’m glad you’re happy with your spyware gaming OS.

edwinjones 2y ago

Not quite what you're after but if you want a fanless option that runs full linux and doesn't use much battery, the new argon 40 CM5 laptop that's being built looks like it could be viable as long as you'd be happy with that much of a drop in performance and a few pi based niggles (No USB C video, only one pcie lane for the SSD, etc.) https://liliputing.com/argon40-is-making-a-raspberry-pi-cm5-powered-laptop/ https://liliputing.com/argon40-is-making-a-raspberry-pi-cm5-...

jlundberg 2y ago

I would highly recommend giving a virtualized arm Linux installation a go, using the built in Apple frameworks who are blazingly fast. Have a look at this sample code: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/creating-and-running-a-linux-virtual-machine https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/cre...