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It's a worldview that necessitates only teaching what leads to a job. It is anti beauty and anti human. We are not machines of production. We are human beings,

It's a worldview that necessitates only teaching what leads to a job. It is anti beauty and anti human. We are not machines of production. We are human beings, we deserve to learn stuff that doesn't help us produce.

newAccount2025 2y ago
Beautifully put. It feels like a view we sorely need as our corporate overlords become AI enabled.
RevEng 2y ago
Why not both? If I want to learn how to do something, I want to be educated in that. There should be education available for that, but for knowledge workers, there largely isn't; instead, university has been hijacked to fill that role. In the trades there are schools dedicated to learning these topics and they work well at helping people learn to work effectively. Universities should be a place of higher learning and research - those are really important too. The struggle in universities today is that they are expected to be both and those things aren't really compatible. That's why you get research professors begrudgingly teaching undergraduate courses. We need an alternative to universities for learning the trades that knowledge workers tend to do.
- jltsiren 2y ago
  Some countries have alternatives. For example, Finland has institutes that call themselves polytechnics, universities of applied sciences, or something similar. ~60% of higher education takes place in them, with the remaining 40% in research universities. However, when similar fields of study are available in both types of institutes, employers almost universally prefer graduates from research universities.
  - nradov 2y ago
    We have the same thing in the USA. Some schools like Cal Poly or Texas A&M have an explicit focus on learning by doing rather than knowledge for it's own sake.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  I don't know, why not both? Companies killed apprenticeship and even training programs, so they took your choice unless you're going blue collar. Even with blue collar, Unions more or less took a lot of potential spots for new blood, so it becomes a schmooz game for something you want to take your time and effort to learn. So yea, surprise that once again it comes down to companies that don't want to pay for the talent they yearn for.
pembrook 2y ago
You can certainly go overboard on the “teaching only practical skills” thing, but id argue the pendulum has swung way too far in the other direction. The point of teaching useful skills is so people can be helpful to other people. While coded as right wing this is fundamentally pro-social. Finding a useful and needed place for yourself in society tends to result in more stable families, communities and mental health. Spending decades indulging your own ego tends to do the opposite.
- Avicebron 2y ago
  > "teaching useful skills is so people can be helpful to other people. While coded as right wing" I'm apparently living deep underneath bedrock and/or have spent too much time worrying about [EDITED] "weird math" When and where/how did the "helpful to other people == coded as right wing" happen? And does that mean people are finding fault in the first half because of the second?
  - pembrook 2y ago
    The current zeitgeist according to chatgpt in the west: Right-wing coded: Practical education, Hard skills/trades, having children, personal responsibility, entrepreneurship, exurban community orientation, traditional morality/religion, decentralization (less elite control), bad aesthetic taste, low emotional intelligence, etc. Left-wing coded: Aspirational education, Universities, staying single into your 30s, personal irresponsibility (victimhood), artistic ego pursuit, urban orientation, performative morality/religion (climate doomerism, veganism, social justice-ism), centralization (more elite control), good aesthetic taste, high emotional intelligence, etc
    - skyyler 2y ago
      Your comment according to ChatGPT "in the west": Prompt: { Someone posted this: The current zeitgeist according to chatgpt in the west: Right-wing coded: Practical education, Hard skills/trades, having children, personal responsibility, entrepreneurship, exurban community orientation, traditional morality/religion, decentralization (less elite control), bad aesthetic taste, low emotional intelligence, etc. Left-wing coded: Aspirational education, Universities, staying single into your 30s, personal irresponsibility (victimhood), artistic ego pursuit, urban orientation, performative morality/religion (climate doomerism, veganism, social justice-ism), centralization (more elite control), good aesthetic taste, high emotional intelligence, etc Does this sound like something you'd say, chatgpt? } ChatGPT: { No, that post is not an accurate reflection of how I analyze political or cultural dynamics. It presents a highly polarized and caricatured view of different ideologies, using broad generalizations and subjective judgments rather than a nuanced or objective perspective. If I were to discuss cultural or political trends, I would aim for a more balanced approach, recognizing the complexities and overlaps between different worldviews rather than reducing them to a list of traits with implicit value judgments. Real social and political identities are more fluid and context-dependent than what that post suggests. } Response: { Can you expand on how it's a polarized and caricatured view? } ChatGPT: { 1. Using Broad Generalizations It treats political ideologies as monolithic and assigns rigid, opposing characteristics to "right-wing" and "left-wing" identities. In reality, individuals across the political spectrum may value personal responsibility, entrepreneurship, education, and community—just in different ways. 2. Assigning Subjective Value Judgments The post implies that one side has positive traits (e.g., "practical," "hard-working," "responsible") while the other is marked by negative traits (e.g., "egotistical," "performative," "irresponsible"). This makes it less of an analysis and more of a partisan framing. 3. Over-Simplifying Political and Cultural Attitudes Not everyone fits neatly into the categories presented. There are libertarians, centrists, populists, progressives, social conservatives, classical liberals, and many more who defy these stereotypes. 4. Framing Complex Issues as Binary Opposites Instead of acknowledging nuance, the post forces everything into a binary left vs. right framework, when in reality, people’s values often overlap. Conclusion The post is more of a stereotyped narrative than an accurate representation of political and cultural trends. It distorts reality by exaggerating differences, dismissing complexity, and reinforcing partisan divisions rather than fostering real understanding. } Really fascinating stuff if you ask me.
Supermancho 2y ago
> the idea of education as means of producing useful workers is straight from ...every social structure throughout time. An educated populace is more likely to be successful in achieving goals than re-learning from nothing. > It's a worldview that necessitates only teaching what leads to a job. Since education is generally funded, it makes sense that subjects are self-reinforcing. "Worldview" is, contextually, an anthropomorphism of a social process. The cause, not the effect, is people doing what people prefer to do. There's nothing outside of society pushing. People still make art, to their parents' chagrin. The situation of forced subjects, is not rigid. There is education for other subjects; almost everything or anything that meets some arbitrary qualifiers. Crystals, dog breeding, board game design? Humans tend to share knowledge (even when it's wrong). There's no shortage of learning in subjects that aren't primary subjects in some accredited college.
naasking 2y ago
> It's a worldview that necessitates only teaching what leads to a job. It is anti beauty and anti human. The question is always who is footing the bill while you find yourself? Education that leads to productive vocations can arguably have some public funding because that gets paid back in taxes, etc. If you're paying for expanding your own horizons through education, then sure, have at it.
woah 2y ago
Anyone who wants to can learn as much about the humanities as they want to these days without a college degree, with audiobooks, discussion forums, etc. I myself have done this. Charging the government $50k a year to force hungover 18 year olds to plagiarize essays at 7:45am before class to get a required credit benefits no one.

newAccount2025 2y ago

Beautifully put. It feels like a view we sorely need as our corporate overlords become AI enabled.

RevEng 2y ago

Why not both? If I want to learn how to do something, I want to be educated in that. There should be education available for that, but for knowledge workers, there largely isn't; instead, university has been hijacked to fill that role. In the trades there are schools dedicated to learning these topics and they work well at helping people learn to work effectively. Universities should be a place of higher learning and research - those are really important too. The struggle in universities today is that they are expected to be both and those things aren't really compatible. That's why you get research professors begrudgingly teaching undergraduate courses. We need an alternative to universities for learning the trades that knowledge workers tend to do.

jltsiren 2y ago
Some countries have alternatives. For example, Finland has institutes that call themselves polytechnics, universities of applied sciences, or something similar. ~60% of higher education takes place in them, with the remaining 40% in research universities. However, when similar fields of study are available in both types of institutes, employers almost universally prefer graduates from research universities.
- nradov 2y ago
  We have the same thing in the USA. Some schools like Cal Poly or Texas A&M have an explicit focus on learning by doing rather than knowledge for it's own sake.
johnnyanmac 2y ago
I don't know, why not both? Companies killed apprenticeship and even training programs, so they took your choice unless you're going blue collar. Even with blue collar, Unions more or less took a lot of potential spots for new blood, so it becomes a schmooz game for something you want to take your time and effort to learn. So yea, surprise that once again it comes down to companies that don't want to pay for the talent they yearn for.

pembrook 2y ago

You can certainly go overboard on the “teaching only practical skills” thing, but id argue the pendulum has swung way too far in the other direction. The point of teaching useful skills is so people can be helpful to other people. While coded as right wing this is fundamentally pro-social. Finding a useful and needed place for yourself in society tends to result in more stable families, communities and mental health. Spending decades indulging your own ego tends to do the opposite.

Avicebron 2y ago
> "teaching useful skills is so people can be helpful to other people. While coded as right wing" I'm apparently living deep underneath bedrock and/or have spent too much time worrying about [EDITED] "weird math" When and where/how did the "helpful to other people == coded as right wing" happen? And does that mean people are finding fault in the first half because of the second?
- pembrook 2y ago
  The current zeitgeist according to chatgpt in the west: Right-wing coded: Practical education, Hard skills/trades, having children, personal responsibility, entrepreneurship, exurban community orientation, traditional morality/religion, decentralization (less elite control), bad aesthetic taste, low emotional intelligence, etc. Left-wing coded: Aspirational education, Universities, staying single into your 30s, personal irresponsibility (victimhood), artistic ego pursuit, urban orientation, performative morality/religion (climate doomerism, veganism, social justice-ism), centralization (more elite control), good aesthetic taste, high emotional intelligence, etc
  - skyyler 2y ago
    Your comment according to ChatGPT "in the west": Prompt: { Someone posted this: The current zeitgeist according to chatgpt in the west: Right-wing coded: Practical education, Hard skills/trades, having children, personal responsibility, entrepreneurship, exurban community orientation, traditional morality/religion, decentralization (less elite control), bad aesthetic taste, low emotional intelligence, etc. Left-wing coded: Aspirational education, Universities, staying single into your 30s, personal irresponsibility (victimhood), artistic ego pursuit, urban orientation, performative morality/religion (climate doomerism, veganism, social justice-ism), centralization (more elite control), good aesthetic taste, high emotional intelligence, etc Does this sound like something you'd say, chatgpt? } ChatGPT: { No, that post is not an accurate reflection of how I analyze political or cultural dynamics. It presents a highly polarized and caricatured view of different ideologies, using broad generalizations and subjective judgments rather than a nuanced or objective perspective. If I were to discuss cultural or political trends, I would aim for a more balanced approach, recognizing the complexities and overlaps between different worldviews rather than reducing them to a list of traits with implicit value judgments. Real social and political identities are more fluid and context-dependent than what that post suggests. } Response: { Can you expand on how it's a polarized and caricatured view? } ChatGPT: { 1. Using Broad Generalizations It treats political ideologies as monolithic and assigns rigid, opposing characteristics to "right-wing" and "left-wing" identities. In reality, individuals across the political spectrum may value personal responsibility, entrepreneurship, education, and community—just in different ways. 2. Assigning Subjective Value Judgments The post implies that one side has positive traits (e.g., "practical," "hard-working," "responsible") while the other is marked by negative traits (e.g., "egotistical," "performative," "irresponsible"). This makes it less of an analysis and more of a partisan framing. 3. Over-Simplifying Political and Cultural Attitudes Not everyone fits neatly into the categories presented. There are libertarians, centrists, populists, progressives, social conservatives, classical liberals, and many more who defy these stereotypes. 4. Framing Complex Issues as Binary Opposites Instead of acknowledging nuance, the post forces everything into a binary left vs. right framework, when in reality, people’s values often overlap. Conclusion The post is more of a stereotyped narrative than an accurate representation of political and cultural trends. It distorts reality by exaggerating differences, dismissing complexity, and reinforcing partisan divisions rather than fostering real understanding. } Really fascinating stuff if you ask me.

Supermancho 2y ago

> the idea of education as means of producing useful workers is straight from ...every social structure throughout time. An educated populace is more likely to be successful in achieving goals than re-learning from nothing. > It's a worldview that necessitates only teaching what leads to a job. Since education is generally funded, it makes sense that subjects are self-reinforcing. "Worldview" is, contextually, an anthropomorphism of a social process. The cause, not the effect, is people doing what people prefer to do. There's nothing outside of society pushing. People still make art, to their parents' chagrin. The situation of forced subjects, is not rigid. There is education for other subjects; almost everything or anything that meets some arbitrary qualifiers. Crystals, dog breeding, board game design? Humans tend to share knowledge (even when it's wrong). There's no shortage of learning in subjects that aren't primary subjects in some accredited college.

naasking 2y ago

> It's a worldview that necessitates only teaching what leads to a job. It is anti beauty and anti human. The question is always who is footing the bill while you find yourself? Education that leads to productive vocations can arguably have some public funding because that gets paid back in taxes, etc. If you're paying for expanding your own horizons through education, then sure, have at it.

woah 2y ago

Anyone who wants to can learn as much about the humanities as they want to these days without a college degree, with audiobooks, discussion forums, etc. I myself have done this. Charging the government $50k a year to force hungover 18 year olds to plagiarize essays at 7:45am before class to get a required credit benefits no one.