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I'd recommend for Entrepreneurs, just like Scientists now do, to consider Europe as a safe-haven. In the EU the rule of law still matters.

somenameforme 2y ago
The grass isn't always greener. I think the core underlying issue at all of this is social divides within countries. When groups of people become sufficiently antagonistic towards one another, it really enables widespread corruption because people will actively blind themselves (or handwave away) to the wrongs of "their side" and magnify the wrongs of "the other side" with no limits to the hyperbole. And Europe is most certainly not an exception to this, especially in current times. For instance 65% of EU citizens do not believe that high level corruption is sufficiently pursued. [1] And basically every EU country (outside of Scandiland) has a majority to vast majority who believe that corruption is widespread in their country. [1] - https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/3217 https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/3217
- inamorty 2y ago
  But public perception doesn’t necessarily reflect actual levels of corruption. Having dodgy planning approved is not the same as buying a seat at the head of the government for a quarter billion dollars.
  - j16sdiz 2y ago
    Public perception do not reflect actual corruption, but it affects how likely people try to start a new business. IMO, this is more important.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - codingbot3000 2y ago
    I'd say US corruption is now more transparent than EU corruption :D That was once different, with Berlusconi at the helm in Italy while owning the major TV outlets.
  - somenameforme 2y ago
    Corruption is always measured by perceptions. There are many reasons for this but when it comes to high level corruption it's especially clear - high level corruption, in most countries, is rarely pursued, let alone prosecuted. And efforts to do such may themselves be driven by corruption. And people's actions, as on all things, will be guided by their perceptions. And so things like corruption's influence on things like starting a business will be driven largely by perceptions.
- akudha 2y ago
  The grass isn’t always greener Like most things in life, I suppose it is all relative? Diabetes sucks, but it sure sucks less than cancer. Of course it would be lovely if there is zero corruption, zero pollution, zero nepotism etc. Which is highly unlikely to happen? Which brings the question - what is the best country to live, relatively speaking?
whiplash451 2y ago
Europe suffers from another kind of "corruption", more akin to a corrupted file system: absurd, rigid and unpredictable regulation makes life very hard for businesses, which drives large private capital away. I am European, and every time I open one of those stupid locked-on bottle caps, I feel pain for my country, for Europe (and for my face).
- username332211 2y ago
  Nevermind the bottle caps. The internet is borderline unusable without extensions like "I don't care about cookies". And in situations where you care about them, you can not, because something has to record that I've seen the GDPR consent form. Recently, in the name of... who knows what, it's become a pain in the ass to access Google maps from Google search. The idea that Europe can become a safe haven for entrepreneurs is beyond laughable. The vaunted "rule of law" has degraded into nothing more than fetishizing arbitrary and irrational rules.
  - lentil_soup 2y ago
    why blame the rule and not the people adding tracking and cookies without reason? You don't need those dumb banners if you don't try to cram cookies in everything
    - username332211 2y ago
      Somehow, someway, I suspect basically every that operates in the EU has thought more about the requirements of EU regulations than the internet know it all's that insist the consent forms are unnecessary.
      - lentil_soup 2y ago
        it's not about being a know it all, it's a regulation you can look up. Look here: https://gdpr.eu/cookies/ https://gdpr.eu/cookies/ > Receive users’ consent before you use any cookies except strictly necessary cookies If you don't use cookies or they're stricly necessary, no need for a banner. Many websites work perfectly fine without a banner, for example, Hacker News.
pembrook 2y ago
Not sure how you could possibly come up with this idea — but I’d recommend not consuming hysterical media narratives and instead looking at actual data. This is a chart of globally relevant companies founded in Europe in the last 50 years: https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/s/1Fn23uYVxK https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/s/1Fn23uYVxK The data depicts the exact opposite of what you are saying. As an entrepreneur, you can be “safe” knowing you will have far less chance to succeed in the EU.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- ta1243 2y ago
  Stop pretending that America of today is anything like America of 15 years ago
  - pembrook 2y ago
    Please elaborate on the anti-entrepreneur shifts that have occurred in the US in the last 15 years that would disrupt this trend. I’m not aware of them. If this were true, 15 years would definitely be enough time to show up in some form of data you can cite about the death of American startup culture.
    - Marazan 2y ago
      Who is talking about the last 15 years? We are talking about the last 15 weeks. America has jut installed a corrupt autocratic government that has immediately become mired in corruption, graft and defiance of the rule of law. That will have a negative effect going forward.
      - pembrook 2y ago
        Not sure how young you are, but I highly recommend not making decisions based on the hysterical 2-year swinging pendulum of American political rhetoric. American media is just as innovative as the rest of their economy, meaning they are constantly finding ways to prey on your emotions and your eyeballs with stories and content. In reality, the US government is one of the most static, unchanging organizations on the planet. The US government has been trying to get Europe to invest in its own defense for 50+ years. It's been trying to solve immigration for 50+ years. It's been trying to come to a solution on healthcare for 50+ years. Nothing is going to happen in the next 4 decades let alone the next 4 years.
gspr 2y ago
I love how this subthread devolved into arguing about Europe's attached bottlecap regulations and that the GDPR has resulted in lots of very annoying cookie banners. So in the US you have a corrupt, authoritarian takeover of a society – and in Europe you have well-meaning, but somewhat annoying, regulations that still need some work to function perfectly.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  The cookie banners were never mandated by GDPR, that's entirely the industry's fault and intent - dark UX patterns to try and annoy the user into agreeing, or a silent protest to the perceived overbearing nature of the GDPR. They could've just respected a browser's do-not-track header but chose not to. The EU legislators should've done that too, that is, dictate a standardized method for people to opt in.
  - fundatus 2y ago
    Or.. god forbid.. not track users?! I know this isn't viable for many businesses, but back then I just removed Google Analytics and all cookies from my sites, so no cookie banners needed.
  - gspr 2y ago
    Oh I agree. I'm just saying, either way that discussion goes, it just's not even the same order of severity magnitude as a corrupt authoritarian takeover.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - username332211 2y ago
    Could you explain why the state railway of the Federal Republic of Germany uses dark UX patterns to annoy the user into agreeing or silently protests the perceived overbearing nature of the GDPR? Btw, I can dig up 3 dozen of other state institutions with cookie banners, if you so wish?
coldtea 2y ago
Sure, that's why von der Leyen run the huge Pfizer deals then conveniently "lost" the SMS about them, hired her pals as defense consultants hiding €100+ million of the costs and the decisions which favored the companies supporting her (e.g. lucrative contracts were awarded to the global consulting giant McKinsey & Company, where von der Leyen's son works as an associate, and several other cases. And she is just the tip of the iceberg of EU corruption. In general such politicians only get repercusions selectively, and usually only when the political direction changes and they're no longer useful to the establishment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizergate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizergate https://www.politico.eu/article/5-things-to-know-about-ursula-von-der-leyens-pfizergate-court-cases/ https://www.politico.eu/article/5-things-to-know-about-ursul...

somenameforme 2y ago

The grass isn't always greener. I think the core underlying issue at all of this is social divides within countries. When groups of people become sufficiently antagonistic towards one another, it really enables widespread corruption because people will actively blind themselves (or handwave away) to the wrongs of "their side" and magnify the wrongs of "the other side" with no limits to the hyperbole. And Europe is most certainly not an exception to this, especially in current times. For instance 65% of EU citizens do not believe that high level corruption is sufficiently pursued. [1] And basically every EU country (outside of Scandiland) has a majority to vast majority who believe that corruption is widespread in their country. [1] - https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/3217 https://europa.eu/eurobarometer/surveys/detail/3217

inamorty 2y ago
But public perception doesn’t necessarily reflect actual levels of corruption. Having dodgy planning approved is not the same as buying a seat at the head of the government for a quarter billion dollars.
- j16sdiz 2y ago
  Public perception do not reflect actual corruption, but it affects how likely people try to start a new business. IMO, this is more important.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- codingbot3000 2y ago
  I'd say US corruption is now more transparent than EU corruption :D That was once different, with Berlusconi at the helm in Italy while owning the major TV outlets.
- somenameforme 2y ago
  Corruption is always measured by perceptions. There are many reasons for this but when it comes to high level corruption it's especially clear - high level corruption, in most countries, is rarely pursued, let alone prosecuted. And efforts to do such may themselves be driven by corruption. And people's actions, as on all things, will be guided by their perceptions. And so things like corruption's influence on things like starting a business will be driven largely by perceptions.
akudha 2y ago
The grass isn’t always greener Like most things in life, I suppose it is all relative? Diabetes sucks, but it sure sucks less than cancer. Of course it would be lovely if there is zero corruption, zero pollution, zero nepotism etc. Which is highly unlikely to happen? Which brings the question - what is the best country to live, relatively speaking?

whiplash451 2y ago

Europe suffers from another kind of "corruption", more akin to a corrupted file system: absurd, rigid and unpredictable regulation makes life very hard for businesses, which drives large private capital away. I am European, and every time I open one of those stupid locked-on bottle caps, I feel pain for my country, for Europe (and for my face).

username332211 2y ago
Nevermind the bottle caps. The internet is borderline unusable without extensions like "I don't care about cookies". And in situations where you care about them, you can not, because something has to record that I've seen the GDPR consent form. Recently, in the name of... who knows what, it's become a pain in the ass to access Google maps from Google search. The idea that Europe can become a safe haven for entrepreneurs is beyond laughable. The vaunted "rule of law" has degraded into nothing more than fetishizing arbitrary and irrational rules.
- lentil_soup 2y ago
  why blame the rule and not the people adding tracking and cookies without reason? You don't need those dumb banners if you don't try to cram cookies in everything
  - username332211 2y ago
    Somehow, someway, I suspect basically every that operates in the EU has thought more about the requirements of EU regulations than the internet know it all's that insist the consent forms are unnecessary.
    - lentil_soup 2y ago
      it's not about being a know it all, it's a regulation you can look up. Look here: https://gdpr.eu/cookies/ https://gdpr.eu/cookies/ > Receive users’ consent before you use any cookies except strictly necessary cookies If you don't use cookies or they're stricly necessary, no need for a banner. Many websites work perfectly fine without a banner, for example, Hacker News.

pembrook 2y ago

Not sure how you could possibly come up with this idea — but I’d recommend not consuming hysterical media narratives and instead looking at actual data. This is a chart of globally relevant companies founded in Europe in the last 50 years: https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/s/1Fn23uYVxK https://www.reddit.com/r/neoliberal/s/1Fn23uYVxK The data depicts the exact opposite of what you are saying. As an entrepreneur, you can be “safe” knowing you will have far less chance to succeed in the EU.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ta1243 2y ago
Stop pretending that America of today is anything like America of 15 years ago
- pembrook 2y ago
  Please elaborate on the anti-entrepreneur shifts that have occurred in the US in the last 15 years that would disrupt this trend. I’m not aware of them. If this were true, 15 years would definitely be enough time to show up in some form of data you can cite about the death of American startup culture.
  - Marazan 2y ago
    Who is talking about the last 15 years? We are talking about the last 15 weeks. America has jut installed a corrupt autocratic government that has immediately become mired in corruption, graft and defiance of the rule of law. That will have a negative effect going forward.
    - pembrook 2y ago
      Not sure how young you are, but I highly recommend not making decisions based on the hysterical 2-year swinging pendulum of American political rhetoric. American media is just as innovative as the rest of their economy, meaning they are constantly finding ways to prey on your emotions and your eyeballs with stories and content. In reality, the US government is one of the most static, unchanging organizations on the planet. The US government has been trying to get Europe to invest in its own defense for 50+ years. It's been trying to solve immigration for 50+ years. It's been trying to come to a solution on healthcare for 50+ years. Nothing is going to happen in the next 4 decades let alone the next 4 years.

gspr 2y ago

I love how this subthread devolved into arguing about Europe's attached bottlecap regulations and that the GDPR has resulted in lots of very annoying cookie banners. So in the US you have a corrupt, authoritarian takeover of a society – and in Europe you have well-meaning, but somewhat annoying, regulations that still need some work to function perfectly.

Cthulhu_ 2y ago
The cookie banners were never mandated by GDPR, that's entirely the industry's fault and intent - dark UX patterns to try and annoy the user into agreeing, or a silent protest to the perceived overbearing nature of the GDPR. They could've just respected a browser's do-not-track header but chose not to. The EU legislators should've done that too, that is, dictate a standardized method for people to opt in.
- fundatus 2y ago
  Or.. god forbid.. not track users?! I know this isn't viable for many businesses, but back then I just removed Google Analytics and all cookies from my sites, so no cookie banners needed.
- gspr 2y ago
  Oh I agree. I'm just saying, either way that discussion goes, it just's not even the same order of severity magnitude as a corrupt authoritarian takeover.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- username332211 2y ago
  Could you explain why the state railway of the Federal Republic of Germany uses dark UX patterns to annoy the user into agreeing or silently protests the perceived overbearing nature of the GDPR? Btw, I can dig up 3 dozen of other state institutions with cookie banners, if you so wish?

coldtea 2y ago

Sure, that's why von der Leyen run the huge Pfizer deals then conveniently "lost" the SMS about them, hired her pals as defense consultants hiding €100+ million of the costs and the decisions which favored the companies supporting her (e.g. lucrative contracts were awarded to the global consulting giant McKinsey & Company, where von der Leyen's son works as an associate, and several other cases. And she is just the tip of the iceberg of EU corruption. In general such politicians only get repercusions selectively, and usually only when the political direction changes and they're no longer useful to the establishment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizergate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pfizergate https://www.politico.eu/article/5-things-to-know-about-ursula-von-der-leyens-pfizergate-court-cases/ https://www.politico.eu/article/5-things-to-know-about-ursul...