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> Avanti West Coast offers customers: > 15 minutes — 25% off > 30 minutes — 50% off > 1 hour + — 100% off To me they look like very generous refund polic

> Avanti West Coast offers customers: > 15 minutes — 25% off > 30 minutes — 50% off > 1 hour + — 100% off To me they look like very generous refund policies. I checked Italy's Trenitalia and what they offer is[1]: > 30-119 minutes: 25% > 120+ minutes: 50% I suppose anything below 30 minutes is consideres "on time". [1] https://www.trenitalia.com/it/informazioni/indennizzo_per_ritardodeltreno.html https://www.trenitalia.com/it/informazioni/indennizzo_per_ri...

dylan604 2y ago
> I suppose anything below 30 minutes is consideres "on time". sounds about right for the stereotype. it's the 'murikans that are the ones so uptight about time
- ikawe 2y ago
  I think by and large this doesn’t play out with trains. American trains tend to be much less frequent, slower, and less comfortable than most European trains. I road a swiss train a couple years ago that was something like 5 minutes late. To me (American) it was “on time” but the conductor came on the PA and apologized. He did make a point to clarify the delay was because they’d been stuck behind an off schedule German train.
  - worldsayshi 2y ago
    It would be so great if the rest of the world could take inspiration from Switzerland and Japan regarding train management. Also perhaps Ukraine. I heard they had stepped up during war time to the point of being more punctual than many other European countries.
    - dan-robertson 2y ago
      Swiss trains are often on time because they are deliberately slow, and so they can speed up a bit if things are delayed. They are sometimes deliberately slow because the Swiss system is designed to have trains arrive and leave interchange stations at the same time to make changing trains easier. Some are also slow because they take routes that wind along mountainsides which are scenic but not particularly direct.
      - worldsayshi 2y ago
        Interesting. I wonder if this goes further than just allowing trains to catch up. Like, does going slower lower the chances of failures and failure cascades in the first place? Maybe trains in many/most systems are running faster than they should for optimal performance?
      - dkga 2y ago
        Well, that and their amazing logistics. Their annual time table is even connected to the local public transport in major and medium-sized cities.
      - ruszki 2y ago
        I travel between Vienna and Budapest quite frequently, and ÖBB (Austrian railway) does also this deliberately on Austrian side towards Vienna. Trains can arrive about 15-20 minutes early in Vienna if they go full speed in Austria, and they arrive in time to the Hungarian border. This rarely happens, and in that case, they go slower. Also, there is almost always delay between Budapest and a smaller Hungarian city. ÖBB changed schedule for their own trains quite quickly reflecting that. MÁV (Hungarian railway) still hasn’t done that for almost two years now on the same line. They still basically lie about it.
    - cyberax 2y ago
      Ukraine and most of the xUSSR countries have always had timely service. Trains are usually on time, although they are not always very fast.
    - Ray20 2y ago
      >It would be so great if the rest of the world could take inspiration from Switzerland and Japan regarding train management. I would be glad to hear more about their success in the train management. Probably starting with one of the most important parameters - the cost of travel per kilometer per passenger (taking into account all subsidies, infrastructure and operating costs, and everything else) >Also perhaps Ukraine. I heard they had stepped up during war time to the point of being more punctual than many other European countries. Probably they have simply returned to the good old Soviet tradition of compiling beautiful statistics. Brought back bad statistics? Perhaps you and your male relatives will be more useful in the trenches. Complaining about train delays instead of productive work? Such active people and their male relatives are exactly what are needed to storm Russian fortifications! And voila - the statistics went through the roof.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > American trains tend to be much less frequent, slower, and less comfortable than most European trains. Exception: the New York regional rail system. Its on-time stats are comparable to Switzerland. We love to talk about subways and intercity high-speed rail. But in America, it doesn't make sense in most cases without subsidies. Drive-on / drive-off regional rail, on the other hand, trades pursim for pragmatism and could really work in our car-dependent metros.
    - jeroenhd 2y ago
      > But in America, it doesn't make sense in most cases without subsidies That's the point of public transit, and that's the case everywhere. Also that of roads; roads wouldn't exist without government subsidies because nobody wants to pay toll to exit their driveways. Of course you'd need to reduce car dependency for any public transit system to make sense, and I don't think Americans care for that. For some reason, "15 minute towns" were turned into some kind of boogeymen to scare conservatives for a while during the last election cycle, which says a lot about the American approach to infrastructure design.
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > you'd need to reduce car dependency for any public transit system to make sense, and I don't think Americans care for that This is what I mean. To reduce car dependence given America's built infrastructure, demographics and geographic spread, you'd have to build such a massive amount of public transportation that I think--outside major metropolitan areas--it would be cheaper to stick to cars.
        lmm 2y ago
        Most major American cities have terrible traffic and air quality problems already, which are only getting worse as cars get bigger and heavier (and electric cars can be worse). America might need thirty years of densification before some of the high speed rail boosters' ideas make sense, but congestion charging, better zoning rules, and gradual elimination of street parking coupled with improving bus and rail infrastructure made sense thirty years ago and made more sense today. Amsterdam didn't get to be a nice place to live through natural luck or some magic non-Americanness, it took fifty years of gradual improvements and rebuilding, and the fights about it in the '70s were just as bitter as the fights about transport in the US today.
  - Suppafly 2y ago
    >He did make a point to clarify the delay was because they’d been stuck behind an off schedule German train. That's hilarious.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
    > less comfortable than most European trains. For long haul journeys, not really true. The reclining seats on most Amtrak rolling stock are amazing compared to most European seating (bigger, softer and they genuinely recline). The sleeping cars on Amtrak are at least if not more comfortable than the equivalent in Europe until very recently (and that exception only applies to specific night train routes so far). It is true that if you're just hopping on a train to move around within a metro area, or to take a short journey within a corridor, US trains are not particularly comfortable, and their European equivalents are probably more so.
- kevinventullo 2y ago
  Japan would like to have a word.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    I think there's a difference from being uptight about time and obsessively punctual
  - criddell 2y ago
    Have them talk to the Swiss. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41189834 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41189834
    - 1024core 2y ago
      Oh yeah? https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/17/611860169/japanese-rail-operator-says-sorry-for-inexcusable-departure-25-seconds-off-sched https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/17/611860169...
      - Aeolun 2y ago
        To be fair, it’s hard to see why a properly planned train journey would have any delays at all.
        labster 2y ago
        Maybe a huge snowstorm happens blocking the train overnight, then someone is murdered on board, and a detective has to figure out who the perpetrator is before the next station?
        nobody9999 2y ago
        >Maybe a huge snowstorm happens blocking the train overnight, then someone is murdered on board, and a detective has to figure out who the perpetrator is before the next station? That sounds like a great idea for a mystery novel. Perhaps one that includes the world's greatest detective. It might even get adapted several times for movies, both on the big screen and made for TV. I'm going to write it all down and make a mint!
- tdeck 2y ago
  FWIW Amtrak's policy is 15 minutes, but they're not known for being on time: https://www.amtrak.com/on-time-performance https://www.amtrak.com/on-time-performance It's interesting how much effort here is dedicated to explaining that it's the freight rail companies' fault.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
    Because it is ... though Amtrak trains do sometimes break down, the vast majority of delays on long-haul Amtrak routes is caused by decisions made by the freight rail companies who own the lines.
sensen 2y ago
I commuted via train for years when I lived in Chicago and a refund policy like Italy's definitely would've been amazing. Perhaps the trains would be more reliable with refunds, all we received was a late slip when the train was delayed by 2 hours..
- BeeOnRope 2y ago
  What is a late slip?
  - nobody9999 2y ago
    >What is a late slip? I imagine (I don't live in the Chicagoland area, so guessing here, perhaps someone from the 'burbs there can chime in) it's a note from the CTA saying the train was delayed so you can limit your negative exposure when you boss wants to know why you're two hours late. Which is actually much more than NYC does. Although that has its advantages as well. The linked fortune[0] (actually an excerpt from a NYT 'Metropolitan Diary'[1] piece ca. 1980) details this: I for one cannot protest the recent M.T.A. fare hike and the accompanying promises that this would in no way improve service. For the transit system, as it now operates, has hidden advantages that can't be measured in monetary terms. Personally, I feel that it is well worth 75 cents or even $1 to have that unimpeachable excuse whenever I am late to anything: "I came by subway." Those four words have such magic in them that if Godot should someday show up and mumble them, any audience would instantly understand his long delay. [0] https://motd.ambians.com/quotes.php/name/freebsd_fortunes/toc_id/1-0-2/s/1356 https://motd.ambians.com/quotes.php/name/freebsd_fortunes/to... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/column/metropolitan-diary https://www.nytimes.com/column/metropolitan-diary
    - alwa 2y ago
      To be fair, NYC’s MTA writes tardy slips too: https://delayverification.mta.info/ https://delayverification.mta.info/ I shudder to imagine the working relationship where that’s relevant. But I very much appreciate the advantages you point out. I felt a little sense of loss when, on work in that city, I noticed that some degree of cellular service had reached the stations…
Tomte 2y ago
Deutsche Bahn: 1hr+ --> 25%, 2hr+ --> 50%
- eCa 2y ago
  I believe that’s the level EU requires for long distance trains.
- chgs 2y ago
  So 80% of journeys have a 50% refund?
  - usr1106 2y ago
    First of all while punctuality is not good, the majority of delays is at most 60 minutes. On many lines there is a train every hour, more in denser areas. So for the majority of the delays, zero refund. And then even if entitled for a refund many passengers never apply for it. Not sure whether there are any reliable calculations available, my feeling is a significant part. While annoyed when it happens many are not excited by the paperwork (or type and clickwork) later. And if you do your paperwork sloppily the refund will be refused. Also correct but complicated cases will often be refused in the first round, so you have go through a 2nd or even 3rd round of detailing your connection and ticket.
chgs 2y ago
This is standard U.K. policy
tecleandor 2y ago
When high speed trains started operating on Spain in 1992 (AVE [0]) they offered 100% refund in any delay higher than 5 minutes (here a TV ad with very happy passengers because the train is arriving six minutes late [1]) But nowadays and after some mismanagement and also private operators coming to share lines it's: For all high speed and other long distance trains: 60min delay, 50% refund. 90min delay, 100% refund. This and other policies [2] -- 0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVE 1: https://youtu.be/Djv91oHkj4k 2: https://www.renfe.com/es/es/ayuda/compromiso-puntualidad
- brnt 2y ago
  I was once over 90 minutes late on a TGV. Naturally, SNCF reported a delay of 59 minutes when calculating my rebate...
dataengineer56 2y ago
This is UK law(?) or standard across all rail networks. It's automated too, you don't have to fill in a form. Immediately after arriving at your destination you get an email telling you that your train was delayed by enough to give you compensation, click a link and the money is in your bank account in a couple of days.
- lozenge 2y ago
  Automatic Delay Repay depends on your train company and which company you used to buy the ticket.
ivanjermakov 2y ago
Trenitalia would be out of business with higher refunds haha. I had horrible experience with rail transit in Italy.

dylan604 2y ago

> I suppose anything below 30 minutes is consideres "on time". sounds about right for the stereotype. it's the 'murikans that are the ones so uptight about time

ikawe 2y ago
I think by and large this doesn’t play out with trains. American trains tend to be much less frequent, slower, and less comfortable than most European trains. I road a swiss train a couple years ago that was something like 5 minutes late. To me (American) it was “on time” but the conductor came on the PA and apologized. He did make a point to clarify the delay was because they’d been stuck behind an off schedule German train.
- worldsayshi 2y ago
  It would be so great if the rest of the world could take inspiration from Switzerland and Japan regarding train management. Also perhaps Ukraine. I heard they had stepped up during war time to the point of being more punctual than many other European countries.
  - dan-robertson 2y ago
    Swiss trains are often on time because they are deliberately slow, and so they can speed up a bit if things are delayed. They are sometimes deliberately slow because the Swiss system is designed to have trains arrive and leave interchange stations at the same time to make changing trains easier. Some are also slow because they take routes that wind along mountainsides which are scenic but not particularly direct.
    - worldsayshi 2y ago
      Interesting. I wonder if this goes further than just allowing trains to catch up. Like, does going slower lower the chances of failures and failure cascades in the first place? Maybe trains in many/most systems are running faster than they should for optimal performance?
    - dkga 2y ago
      Well, that and their amazing logistics. Their annual time table is even connected to the local public transport in major and medium-sized cities.
    - ruszki 2y ago
      I travel between Vienna and Budapest quite frequently, and ÖBB (Austrian railway) does also this deliberately on Austrian side towards Vienna. Trains can arrive about 15-20 minutes early in Vienna if they go full speed in Austria, and they arrive in time to the Hungarian border. This rarely happens, and in that case, they go slower. Also, there is almost always delay between Budapest and a smaller Hungarian city. ÖBB changed schedule for their own trains quite quickly reflecting that. MÁV (Hungarian railway) still hasn’t done that for almost two years now on the same line. They still basically lie about it.
  - cyberax 2y ago
    Ukraine and most of the xUSSR countries have always had timely service. Trains are usually on time, although they are not always very fast.
  - Ray20 2y ago
    >It would be so great if the rest of the world could take inspiration from Switzerland and Japan regarding train management. I would be glad to hear more about their success in the train management. Probably starting with one of the most important parameters - the cost of travel per kilometer per passenger (taking into account all subsidies, infrastructure and operating costs, and everything else) >Also perhaps Ukraine. I heard they had stepped up during war time to the point of being more punctual than many other European countries. Probably they have simply returned to the good old Soviet tradition of compiling beautiful statistics. Brought back bad statistics? Perhaps you and your male relatives will be more useful in the trenches. Complaining about train delays instead of productive work? Such active people and their male relatives are exactly what are needed to storm Russian fortifications! And voila - the statistics went through the roof.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > American trains tend to be much less frequent, slower, and less comfortable than most European trains. Exception: the New York regional rail system. Its on-time stats are comparable to Switzerland. We love to talk about subways and intercity high-speed rail. But in America, it doesn't make sense in most cases without subsidies. Drive-on / drive-off regional rail, on the other hand, trades pursim for pragmatism and could really work in our car-dependent metros.
  - jeroenhd 2y ago
    > But in America, it doesn't make sense in most cases without subsidies That's the point of public transit, and that's the case everywhere. Also that of roads; roads wouldn't exist without government subsidies because nobody wants to pay toll to exit their driveways. Of course you'd need to reduce car dependency for any public transit system to make sense, and I don't think Americans care for that. For some reason, "15 minute towns" were turned into some kind of boogeymen to scare conservatives for a while during the last election cycle, which says a lot about the American approach to infrastructure design.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > you'd need to reduce car dependency for any public transit system to make sense, and I don't think Americans care for that This is what I mean. To reduce car dependence given America's built infrastructure, demographics and geographic spread, you'd have to build such a massive amount of public transportation that I think--outside major metropolitan areas--it would be cheaper to stick to cars.
      - lmm 2y ago
        Most major American cities have terrible traffic and air quality problems already, which are only getting worse as cars get bigger and heavier (and electric cars can be worse). America might need thirty years of densification before some of the high speed rail boosters' ideas make sense, but congestion charging, better zoning rules, and gradual elimination of street parking coupled with improving bus and rail infrastructure made sense thirty years ago and made more sense today. Amsterdam didn't get to be a nice place to live through natural luck or some magic non-Americanness, it took fifty years of gradual improvements and rebuilding, and the fights about it in the '70s were just as bitter as the fights about transport in the US today.
- Suppafly 2y ago
  >He did make a point to clarify the delay was because they’d been stuck behind an off schedule German train. That's hilarious.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  > less comfortable than most European trains. For long haul journeys, not really true. The reclining seats on most Amtrak rolling stock are amazing compared to most European seating (bigger, softer and they genuinely recline). The sleeping cars on Amtrak are at least if not more comfortable than the equivalent in Europe until very recently (and that exception only applies to specific night train routes so far). It is true that if you're just hopping on a train to move around within a metro area, or to take a short journey within a corridor, US trains are not particularly comfortable, and their European equivalents are probably more so.
kevinventullo 2y ago
Japan would like to have a word.
- dylan604 2y ago
  I think there's a difference from being uptight about time and obsessively punctual
- criddell 2y ago
  Have them talk to the Swiss. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41189834 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41189834
  - 1024core 2y ago
    Oh yeah? https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/17/611860169/japanese-rail-operator-says-sorry-for-inexcusable-departure-25-seconds-off-sched https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/17/611860169...
    - Aeolun 2y ago
      To be fair, it’s hard to see why a properly planned train journey would have any delays at all.
      - labster 2y ago
        Maybe a huge snowstorm happens blocking the train overnight, then someone is murdered on board, and a detective has to figure out who the perpetrator is before the next station?
        nobody9999 2y ago
        >Maybe a huge snowstorm happens blocking the train overnight, then someone is murdered on board, and a detective has to figure out who the perpetrator is before the next station? That sounds like a great idea for a mystery novel. Perhaps one that includes the world's greatest detective. It might even get adapted several times for movies, both on the big screen and made for TV. I'm going to write it all down and make a mint!
tdeck 2y ago
FWIW Amtrak's policy is 15 minutes, but they're not known for being on time: https://www.amtrak.com/on-time-performance https://www.amtrak.com/on-time-performance It's interesting how much effort here is dedicated to explaining that it's the freight rail companies' fault.
- PaulDavisThe1st 2y ago
  Because it is ... though Amtrak trains do sometimes break down, the vast majority of delays on long-haul Amtrak routes is caused by decisions made by the freight rail companies who own the lines.

sensen 2y ago

I commuted via train for years when I lived in Chicago and a refund policy like Italy's definitely would've been amazing. Perhaps the trains would be more reliable with refunds, all we received was a late slip when the train was delayed by 2 hours..

BeeOnRope 2y ago
What is a late slip?
- nobody9999 2y ago
  >What is a late slip? I imagine (I don't live in the Chicagoland area, so guessing here, perhaps someone from the 'burbs there can chime in) it's a note from the CTA saying the train was delayed so you can limit your negative exposure when you boss wants to know why you're two hours late. Which is actually much more than NYC does. Although that has its advantages as well. The linked fortune[0] (actually an excerpt from a NYT 'Metropolitan Diary'[1] piece ca. 1980) details this: I for one cannot protest the recent M.T.A. fare hike and the accompanying promises that this would in no way improve service. For the transit system, as it now operates, has hidden advantages that can't be measured in monetary terms. Personally, I feel that it is well worth 75 cents or even $1 to have that unimpeachable excuse whenever I am late to anything: "I came by subway." Those four words have such magic in them that if Godot should someday show up and mumble them, any audience would instantly understand his long delay. [0] https://motd.ambians.com/quotes.php/name/freebsd_fortunes/toc_id/1-0-2/s/1356 https://motd.ambians.com/quotes.php/name/freebsd_fortunes/to... [1] https://www.nytimes.com/column/metropolitan-diary https://www.nytimes.com/column/metropolitan-diary
  - alwa 2y ago
    To be fair, NYC’s MTA writes tardy slips too: https://delayverification.mta.info/ https://delayverification.mta.info/ I shudder to imagine the working relationship where that’s relevant. But I very much appreciate the advantages you point out. I felt a little sense of loss when, on work in that city, I noticed that some degree of cellular service had reached the stations…

Tomte 2y ago

Deutsche Bahn: 1hr+ --> 25%, 2hr+ --> 50%

eCa 2y ago
I believe that’s the level EU requires for long distance trains.
chgs 2y ago
So 80% of journeys have a 50% refund?
- usr1106 2y ago
  First of all while punctuality is not good, the majority of delays is at most 60 minutes. On many lines there is a train every hour, more in denser areas. So for the majority of the delays, zero refund. And then even if entitled for a refund many passengers never apply for it. Not sure whether there are any reliable calculations available, my feeling is a significant part. While annoyed when it happens many are not excited by the paperwork (or type and clickwork) later. And if you do your paperwork sloppily the refund will be refused. Also correct but complicated cases will often be refused in the first round, so you have go through a 2nd or even 3rd round of detailing your connection and ticket.

chgs 2y ago

This is standard U.K. policy

tecleandor 2y ago

When high speed trains started operating on Spain in 1992 (AVE [0]) they offered 100% refund in any delay higher than 5 minutes (here a TV ad with very happy passengers because the train is arriving six minutes late [1]) But nowadays and after some mismanagement and also private operators coming to share lines it's: For all high speed and other long distance trains: 60min delay, 50% refund. 90min delay, 100% refund. This and other policies [2] -- 0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVE 1: https://youtu.be/Djv91oHkj4k 2: https://www.renfe.com/es/es/ayuda/compromiso-puntualidad

brnt 2y ago
I was once over 90 minutes late on a TGV. Naturally, SNCF reported a delay of 59 minutes when calculating my rebate...

dataengineer56 2y ago

This is UK law(?) or standard across all rail networks. It's automated too, you don't have to fill in a form. Immediately after arriving at your destination you get an email telling you that your train was delayed by enough to give you compensation, click a link and the money is in your bank account in a couple of days.

lozenge 2y ago
Automatic Delay Repay depends on your train company and which company you used to buy the ticket.

ivanjermakov 2y ago

Trenitalia would be out of business with higher refunds haha. I had horrible experience with rail transit in Italy.