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Show HN: Bayleaf – Building a low-profile wireless split keyboard

• thatxliner 2y ago
  What about the Glove80?
• volemo 2y ago
  Could you share the name of the battery you used?
  • sgraz 2y ago
    Li-Po 401235
    • volemo 2y ago
      Hmm, 150 mAh? How long does it last for in real use? Do you have to charge the keyboard often?
      • sgraz 2y ago
        Yep 150 mAh, it's what I had on hand. But I should have space for 300-500 mAh. I recharge the left (master peripheral) once per ~1.5 weeks. Right side only needs recharging every 2–3 weeks.
        • volemo 2y ago
          I see. Thanks!
• wnolens 2y ago
  It's gorgeous. Impressive execution - looks like a polished product from Apple.
• deleted 2y ago
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• mattpavelle 2y ago
  I love this. Well done. I've looked in the past for an ultra portable full sized keyboard (with a nice aesthetic) that I could throw in my pocket. I wonder if I could actually do any real work (not coding, of course) at a coffee shop with my iPhone in a stand and with a keyboard like that.
• aredox 2y ago
  Nice write-up. For something so thin, your soldering woes aren't surprising. The standard way to manage that would have been to solder everything in one go on a hot plate (reflow soldering). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QarizoUnRfk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QarizoUnRfk
  • stronglikedan 2y ago
    > reflow soldering one of the most satisfying things to watch
  • ghostly_s 2y ago
    This video features the exact same technique and hot plate that was used here.
  • sgraz 2y ago
    Thank you, My first few attempts were with a SMD stencil and a 50x50mm hotplate, it's true that maybe a larger hotplate that could span the whole PCB might have done a better job. But with the smaller plate it was "easier" to just manually apply solder paste and do 4 switches at a time. I think this method is also highly specific to these switches. They are known for being difficult to solder with hobby-tier equipment.
  • shellfishgene 2y ago
    I just reflowed a board in a cheap cast iron pan filled with some sand on my induction stove. Worked fine!
• nickdichev 2y ago
  Really well done! Looks great
• snide 2y ago
  This is beautiful. I'm a "Let's Split" style keyboarder as well so this made me giddy! There's a distinct lack of solid cases out there for this layout style. You mention possibly mass producing the next round. Please add a notify email list or something. I'd be all over this.
  • __mharrison__ 2y ago
    I think cases are the biggest issue with DIY keyboards. The plastic laminate of my ergodoxen was stiff, sturdy, and heavy. The exposed bolts were a little industrial. Very much had a DIY look. My Lily58 started out with the PCB "case" which is horrible. Way too flexible, and switches falling out as soon as you attempted to transport it. (Easy transport was my main motivation for the smaller keyboard.) Eventually, I was able to convince someone on Etsy to print me a 3d case for it. It is ok. Much better than the PCBs. However, switches still have a tendency to pop out when moving the keyboard. The case on the Bayleaf makes me wonder if other keyboards could do a better job with case offerings. I've always gone with wired keyboards because dealing with batteries seems annoying. Looking at this keyboard makes me realize that I've optimized for functionality but this beauty is optimized for form.
    • jsheard 2y ago
      3D printed cases do vary in quality quite a bit, something made with a cheap consumer FDM printer won't be nearly as nice as a resin SLA or nylon MJF/SLS case printed on an industrial-grade machine and professionally finished. The latter processes are pretty accessible these days from companies like JLCPCB or PCBWay. You can even get them to 3D print metal parts with an SLM process, although that's on the pricier side.
    • Palomides 2y ago
      >do a better job with case offerings for hobby businesses like most of these weird little keyboards, adding $200 to the parts cost is a real stretch, considering their already niche appeal and limited capital for investment
      • 2y ago
• azthecx 2y ago
  Quite neat result and presentation! Can you estimate what did your research and final product cost turn out to be?
  • sgraz 2y ago
    Final product, i.e only the parts and components were $400. The cost of all the tools and software I did not track but I would guess I invested somewhere around $1K which includes software licenses, shipping, new tools etc. But I find tracking the cost of research a bit impractical as it doesn't include indirect costs like billable hours that I technically could have spent on clients etc.
• nicksergeant 2y ago
  I've wanted this for years. I've tried so many "ergonomic" mechanical keyboards, but the huge key travel (even if very soft switches), tends to always give me finger/wrist issues over a few weeks.
  • nicksergeant 2y ago
    >> Can I buy this keyboard? > Negative, this singular prototype is not for sale. :sobbing: I hope someone builds / sells this! Instant buy for me, if so.
    • abound 2y ago
      But then, the next question down: > Are you planning to sell this keyboard at scale? > Dependent on the reception, likely yes. But it wont be exactly this design. A second iteration is in the works with improved sound profile and ergonomics. Stay tuned.
  • stronglikedan 2y ago
    I had all those issues too, until I remembered my high school typing class where the teacher would slap our wrists with a ruler if they were resting. Now I lift my wrists like I was taught, and use non-split keyboards with better results than I used to get with splits.
  • unitexe 2y ago
    To reduce mouse hand travel I got a roller mouse pro slim about 6 months ago. Not great for fine motor tasks but exceptional for other general uses. Alleviated a lot of pain in my hands and fingers. I use this with a small slim keychron keyboard and with a kinesis advantage 360. The roller seems to be getting a bit sticky after 6 months of heavy use and transporting it between work and home. Nonetheless, would get another in a heartbeat. Perhaps worth a look?
    • unitexe 2y ago
      I keep my Logitech MX close cause the infinite scroll is just too damn good. But the MX kills my hands when using for prolonged periods.
• tomlong 2y ago
  This looks really good. As a happy ergodox-ez user of a few years, I would buy one of these in a heartbeat.
• zaruvi 2y ago
  Looks really nice. I do have my doubts about the ergonomics of it though. Once you've had a taste of concavity and column-staggering nothing else feels the same.
  • carb 2y ago
    That's how I feel about keyboard tilts away from a full pronation/flat and towards a neutral position. Once I switched to having a rotated split keyboard, my forearms and wrists felt incredible, and I hadn't even considered them uncomfortable before.
    • slama 2y ago
      I wonder if they could fit a simple flip-out stand for some tilt without too many compromises
• ticah65314 2y ago
  [dead]
• acc_297 2y ago
  Looks really good
• derac 2y ago
  "pain grid", Freudian slip? lol
• 2wrist 2y ago
  This is gorgeous! well done.
• egypturnash 2y ago
  Damn that's pretty.
• whalesalad 2y ago
  Beautiful design, great execution. All-in-all this is a wonderful project. However... ever since transitioning to an ergonomic/curved keyboard I don't think that I could ever go back to a traditional layout, even moreso for ortholinear.
  • ge96 2y ago
    I feel both ways, I use an apple wireless keyboard (flat) and a Durgod Hades 68 (curved mech). I don't like the felt keycaps/no letters on this one but yeah the build is amazing especially saying they're a beginner damn. edit: I'll note I prefer the 65-68% keyboards where it has the dedicated arrow keys
• hhheath 2y ago
  sensational. well done! one feature I would really like to see is multi-device connectivity/switching like the Logitech MX Keys. Outside of that, this keyboard is my grail board. Looking forward to keeping up with this project!
  • wucke13 2y ago
    I think ZMK (available on the Nice!Nano) does exactly that already?
• memhole 2y ago
  Wouldn’t even know it’s not a professional product. Great write up too
• UI_at_80x24 2y ago
  OP, congrats on the product and effort. _NOTHING_ beats prototyping and building. For other split-mechanical keyboards check out: ZSA Voyager Moergo Glove 80
  • w10-1 2y ago
    Also, should you prioritize ergonomics over function or form, the Kinesis Advantage 360 Professional
    • porkloin 2y ago
      Not sure if you're familiar with it, but Glove80 which the parent comment you were replying to is very similar to Kinesis boards (concave keywell, staggered columnar layout, etc.) but leverages a lot of the open source stuff like ZMK firmware that Kinesis doesn't support https://www.moergo.com/ https://www.moergo.com/ Edit: nevermind, I just learned that the advantage360 pro uses ZMK as well. Either way, they both seem like great options for people who prioritize the ergonomics over aesthetics :)
    • okayishdefaults 2y ago
      Why stop there when you could go for a Charybdis and get the purer form of zmk and a trackball option
  • cole-k 2y ago
    Yeah this is awesome. For keyboards really similar to OP's The keyboard they were inspired by (not for sale... yet?): https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/1cfg3vr/mikefive_a_kailh_pg1316_keyboard/ https://old.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/1cfg3vr/... Corneish (out of stock): https://lowprokb.ca/products/corne-ish-zen?variant=37694331977892 https://lowprokb.ca/products/corne-ish-zen?variant=376943319... Unicorne: https://new.boardsource.xyz/products/unicorne-LP https://new.boardsource.xyz/products/unicorne-LP The corneish is an absolute gem in my opinion. It is possibly (probably?) open-sourced too.
    • ValentinPearce 2y ago
• jacksontheel 2y ago
  This looks incredible, I was hoping when I clicked that it would be ortholinear, pleasantly surprised it is! Probably about four years ago I bought a ZSA Moonlander, and started learning Vim keybindings right at the same time. My words per minute dropped to 20 or something before climbing back and passing what it was before. I couldn't ever go back.
• gatkinso 2y ago
  Beautiful work, loved reading about your process.
• __mharrison__ 2y ago
  Looks beautiful. Congrats. A jedi builds their own lightsaber... (Typed on a Lily58)
• seemaze 2y ago
  Bravo! You have elevated a honed tool to a truly engaging artifact! I think the large challenge in design is mitigating the breaking point between ruthless efficiency and endearing novelty. I picked up a Let's Split v2[0] when it came out years ago and never soldered it up.. maybe it's time! [0]https://shop.beekeeb.com/product/lets-split-v2-keyboard-pcb-kit/?srsltid=AfmBOoqSnweOL2oUq39ST7nfdU0dlVJflhWocliGm2S4aNoTssoexW4y https://shop.beekeeb.com/product/lets-split-v2-keyboard-pcb-...
• voidUpdate 2y ago
  Why do no split keyboards have symbols on the keycaps? What happens when you forget where a key is that you don't use often, do you just have to press keys until you find it again?
  • varunneal 2y ago
    to support custom key mappings, as many people with fancy ergonomic keyboards use
  • jsheard 2y ago
    Partly because they're a niche product and making legended keycaps is more expensive, and partially because ergo layouts are so varied that it's hard to accommodate everyone. Especially if the keycap profile has different shapes for each row so they're not entirely interchangeable. There are a few low-profile legended keycap sets around but they typically only cover the "top" layer, which is the easiest to remember anyway. If you want legends which show every function of every key you'd have to get them custom laser etched to match your personal keymap.
  • amarant 2y ago
    I have the ultimate hackers keyboard (silly name, I know) It's a really good split keyboard with symbols printed (optional). https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/
    • johncalvinyoung 2y ago
      I have two UHKs, one at work and one in my home office, and I got my second one with blank keycaps. It's very satisfying. At this point I'm very happy with UHK's layout and features, but every once in a while I wonder if a low-profile wireless 60% would be cool.
    • Syzygies 2y ago
      Their UKH 80 looks incredible. Software is as critical as hardware: The UHK supports holding a key down to select a different keymap layer, then using the other hand to tap a key in that layer. While few people learn many-key chording, "one finger each hand" is every bit as easy as ordinary typing, with practice. This supports an n^2 expansion in effective keyboard reach. I'm surprised this isn't the norm for selecting Chinese/Japanese characters. The question is: How well? I'm not entirely happy with my QMK firmware implementation. Tap-hold is the antithesis of n-key rollover; one needs to learn to properly nest key-down, key-up events. It's easy to switch from a clarinet (cleanly cover holes) to a saxophone (slap pads), but hard switching back. And we've all learned to type like we're on a saxophone, relying on n-key rollover to cover many sins. I now use QMK firmware with Hasu controllers for multiple Leopold FC660C keyboards with Topre Silent 45g "rubber dome" key switches. After trying dozens of mechanical key switches, I found that nothing feels like a Topre switch. And here's the kicker: The physical form factor doesn't matter so much if your fingers rarely go far from home row, which is what tap/hold facilitates.
• GordonS 2y ago
  Wow, it looks amazing! I needed an enclosure for a project recently and went with modifying a stock ABS enclosure - but I'd love to use machined aluminium! You mentioned you're in the EU - did PCBway deliver from the US, or from closer to home? Also, how much did the enclosure cost please?
  • sgraz 2y ago
    The PCBWay order came from China to my EU address, I wasn't aware they have manus in other places. For a set of two enclosures I paid $187 excluding shipping.
• volemo 2y ago
  sgraz beat me to it! I’m working on an almost the same project (thin, slick, aluminium, ortholinear). Guess I’ll have someone to look up to. (:
  • sgraz 2y ago
    Keep me posted! Whats your bsky/x?
    • volemo 2y ago
      Oh, believe me I’ll contact you the moment I encounter a hiccup. xD I use neither. I’m @volemo@mathstodon.xyz.
• cbdumas 2y ago
  Very cool. Goes well with your Ghost S1 as well I see in the background. I love mine, though I will say it's getting harder and harder to find decent 2 slot GPUs.
  • noboostforyou 2y ago
    Ah, I was wondering if anyone else noticed the Louqe case in the background. Legendary sffpc case, and I agree the custom keyboard matches very nicely.
  • sgraz 2y ago
    It's a Ghost S1 Chinese copy called Acat X2 https://caseend.com/data/acat/acat-x2 https://caseend.com/data/acat/acat-x2 Almost 1-1 in dimensions but with thicker panels
• nakedneuron 2y ago
  What parametric CAD tool did you use? Thanks!
  • sgraz 2y ago
    Autodesk Fusion
• danielvaughn 2y ago
  Personal opinion, but I really don’t get low-profile keyboards. I always need a foam cushion for my palms, which means that a normal profile always feels best for me. Low feels too low with a cushion, and yet still feels too high without one.
  • makeitdouble 2y ago
    My take is that finger muscle are really different from person to person, to a degree that can be surprising. I might be at the other extreme end, but even typing on glass doesn't bother me much, and laptop keyboards are a good compromise to have just enough travel and not too much. I tried a nuphy low profile and it was tiring after a while. The thinkpad standalone trackpoint keyboard has been my go to for a while, and tgis keyboard also looks great to me.
    • hinkley 2y ago
      Squishy keyboards make the tendons on the backs of my hand burn after a while. After Apple stopped producing their wired keyboard, which I used for everything, I bought a bunch of surplus ones and burned through them. I tried a few knockoffs, several of which were close, and now I’m on the wireless ones. I was surprised as anyone when an Apple keyboard became my gaming keyboard.
  • bee_rider 2y ago
    Another opinion: I want this keyboard to put on a bookshelf and never use, haha. It is really nice looking. It sounds like it was an incredible learning experience and making something so polished and professional looking is a real accomplishment. But low profile, no pads, ortho layout, and no tenting… my eyes ache for the beauty of the thing but my hands just ache. But anyway, ergonomics are personal so I can’t really judge.
    • volemo 2y ago
      > ...low profile, no pads, ortho layout, and no tenting... I agree with the tenting remark, I can understand the preference against low profile, but I sincerely believe ortholinear is way better for one's hands than staggered. Maybe you mean it's a shame it's not columnar? > ...ergonomics are personal... Hear, hear!
• klauserc 2y ago
  Fantastically beautiful keyboard! Keyboards are such a good hobby project. The scope is comparatively small, yet within that scope you get in contact with many different and highly interesting subjects and challenges. And you can more or less pick and choose, which ones you engage with (wireless vs wired, soldering vs hand-wired, custom firmware vs. ZMK/QMK, split vs. traditional).
• EWiggins 2y ago
  Curious about the model of the monitor arm seen in the background?
  • sgraz 2y ago
    Humanscale M8.1
• mouse_ 2y ago
  Sans stagger sans ergonomics is a tough sell.
• rpmisms 2y ago
  Looks like something I would pay $150 for, or $120 if I had to assemble it myself.
  • asoneth 2y ago
    > Looks like something I would pay $150 for That's useful market information, but note that in the "How much did it cost?" section he points out that the BOM is ~$400 not including labor, tools, or shipping. Going from extremely low-volume to moderately low-volume might reduce material cost slightly, but I'd still expect him to have to charge at least $400 just to break even. More generally, I've never seen a low-volume split wireless keyboard for less than $200 and the closest in design I can think of would be https://lowprokb.ca/products/corne-ish-zen https://lowprokb.ca/products/corne-ish-zen which had a base price of $320 before pricing in keyswitches or keycaps. It's totally reasonable that this is your price point and everyone is different -- some people would never pay more than a hundred bucks for a keyboard, whereas I have a couple keyboards that are more expensive than the computers they're connected to.
    • rpmisms 2y ago
      I am also a keyboard snob, and have far more expensive keyboards. Mass manufacturing drastically lowers costs, and a price point goal is super useful for group buys, which I have run before. It is useful data. I'm also talking about PCB + case only. The case is the biggest cost driver here, a simple FRT plate case would make my kit price reasonable with a healthy margin
• geokon 2y ago
  First time seeing a low profile keyboard on par with a magic keyboard. Actually would fit in a bag :) Usually "low profile" is used generously in mechanical keyboard land
• jacobevelyn 2y ago
  This is the keyboard I’ve been hoping Apple would make for years! I’ve currently got a UHK 60 but would probably switch to this if I could buy it. Especially if it had the standard Apple keyboard layout so my fingers don’t need to relearn things like arrow keys and cmd like when I switch between the UHK and MacBook keyboard.
  • SJMG 2y ago
    Yes. Agreed.
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  • nextos 2y ago
    Me too. Low-profile is nicer to joints in the long run, and also makes me type faster due to low-travel switches. Bonus points if it has a little bit of negative tilt. In this regard, I found Microsoft Sculpt really good because it ticked all ergonomic boxes but it didn't require relearning. However, quality was a bit subpar, it didn't offer a wired option, and it has been discontinued. The entire lineup was actually sold to Incase, who are releasing it again soon.
    • kalium-xyz 2y ago
      I have had 3 of which 1 has bricked itself.
    • jjani 2y ago
      > Low-profile is nicer to joints in the long run Very much so. I went through 10+ keyboards before finding one that I could type on for a day without aching joints. The only one that passed (which I'm typing this comment on), was the lowest out of all of them. Cheap Aliexpress keyboard, but it's maybe 4mm from table to keyboard. For those in a similar situation that want to try it, it's this one [1]. Definitely not "high quality", but saved me from inability to type. Question for the keyboard-knowledgeable: it claims in this picture [2] to use scissor keys but the picture of its insides are pretty meaningless to me. Does their claim look to hold up? [1] https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006265944802.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006265944802.html [2] https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/Sf4d150eda2c4441490535d5f17ebfbfcM.jpg https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/Sf4d150eda2c4441490535d5f17ebfbfc...
• regularfry 2y ago
  The unsung hero here is probably the nice!nano. Such a good little board. I've made my own split keyboard around them and it just makes so many things I thought I'd have to think about Go Away.
  • jsheard 2y ago
    The nice!nano gets the job done but it's really expensive for what's ultimately just an nRF52 dev board in the ubiquitous Pro Micro form factor. They're $25 a pop and you need two for a split board, while you can get generic nRF52 Pro Micros on AliExpress for about $3.50 each. It's the same story with RP2040 Pro Micros for wired QMK builds, there's a huge "keyboard tax" if you get the ones marketed for that purpose.
    • puzzlingcaptcha 2y ago
      I'm not sure why the 'pro micro' format is so popular. If you are already designing a PCB, why not plop an Atmega32u2 on it directly (assuming you dont need wireless)? You only need a crystal, two resistors, four caps and a usb connector.
      • jsheard 2y ago
        It's just easier for people with less soldering experience, all the tricky SMD parts are already installed for you. Especially now that QMK has shifted from AVR to more powerful and readily available ARM chips like the RP2040, which are often only available in packages that are difficult to hand-solder. Plus designing a keyboard around the Pro Micro means you can use the same PCB for wired and wireless builds.
    • regularfry 2y ago
      It's more a convenience tax. The nano also has battery management onboard, which is one less thing to think about. But really at that price difference picking the nano over the bare pro micro has to save me less than an hour of design time and it's already paid for itself if I'm just building a keyboard for myself. If I was looking to manufacture something at any more than "it's just for me" scale it would be a different story but it's extremely well targeted at its niche.
• 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
  Unlike the author, I consider wireless to be a dealbreaker. Technology barely works, no way I am letting radio quality stand between me and the computer. Same reason I require a wired microphone. Also add the atrocious security record of HID, and I assume wireless typing is easily intercepted.
• roetlich 2y ago
  Looks awesome! This with a small carrying case would be amazing. Maybe the space next to the keys could be a kind of small touch pad used for scrolling?
• w10-1 2y ago
  For next iteration, consider integrating trackpads? Moving to the mouse and back is pain enough that people go all-in on keyboard-only interfaces. I velcroed a trackpad to the middle of a Kinesis Advantage. Now I use either hand for the mouse, and even stretch a finger or thumb to the pad without leaving the keys. The movement is little different from using the keyboard. But for split keyboard, you'd need one trackpad for each side, and in dimensions not readily available. hmm.
  • JeremyBarbosa 2y ago
    So happy to read this because I don't see it mentioned often enough. I have a ErgoDox EZ, and I still prefer using my Framework 13 (with Kanata![0]) because having my thumbs navigate the trackpad is so convenient even with a keyboard-driven setup. [0] https://github.com/jtroo/kanata https://github.com/jtroo/kanata
    • yencabulator 2y ago
      I have a touchpad in between the halves of my Ergodox EZ. It's not exactly as easy to reach as a laptop touchpad, but it's worlds better than moving your shoulder to reach a mouse.
  • mkl 2y ago
    I put a trackball (Kensington Expert Mouse) in between the keyboard halves. With tenting it can nestle in quite close.
  • jazzabeanie 2y ago
    I want a trackpads integrated into the keys. Under the J key a trackpad with low sensitifity, and under the K key a trackpad with high sensitivity.
    • wyre 2y ago
      Brilliant! Use modifier keys with your left hand for either key entry or mouse click?
    • 2y ago
• flyingpenguin 2y ago
  I have been working on a very similar build. One feature I decided was a requirement is holding me up. I really want pogo pins on the sides of the keyboards, so that they magnetically attach and the left will charge the right. How do you charge the left and the right since they require separate cables?
  • bb88 2y ago
    That doesn't seem to hard to do. They sell the connectors on amazon. https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Connector-Positions-Pogopin-Contact/dp/B0DR1R9443?th=1 https://www.amazon.com/Magnetic-Connector-Positions-Pogopin-... Each battery should probably have their own charging circuit anyway. So the pogo pins should be 5V and ground coming directly from the USB 5V line.
• nashashmi 2y ago
  My niche idea: Being a CAD user with one hand on the mouse and the other on a one-handed keyboard would be a charm.
• shawnz 2y ago
  Aside: What's that mouse pictured in the second pic?
  • Kovah 2y ago
    Would like to know that as well. At least GPT doesn't recognize it. Maybe it's a custom build, too?
  • rmnwski 2y ago
    Was wondering this as well. Looks a bit like a Logitech MX 3. Hard to find pictures from the same angle.
  • sgraz 2y ago
    Correct, it's MX Master 3S in gray
• goodpoint 2y ago
  That's really not ergonomic.
  • Etheryte 2y ago
    Why do you think that? Split keyboards are considerably more ergonomic than regular keyboards.
    • goodpoint 2y ago
      Compared to a regular, yes, but from the site: "Ergonomics — not gonna lie this is a planned form-over-function kind of deal." You can see the video. There is no stagger and no tilting and the person is clearly typing at an angle.
• HHalvi 2y ago
  Ever since I saw this video[1] by Dave2D I have felt the need to move away from my regular mechanical keyboards to Ortholinear keyboards. Non split keyboards seemed too much of a hassle and Bayleaf looks like something I can totally switch to. If only someone built a DIY kit that I could buy off shelves. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVfB_0s470I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVfB_0s470I
• doubleyou 2y ago
  Looking forward to stagger/more thumbs in the next one! magnet batteries also sound very cool. and if they could sandwich eachother protectively for packing/traveling wow
• Executor 2y ago
  Criticism: - Non-standard layout - Where's the arrow keys block? Insert/delete/home/end/pgup/pgdown block? - Non-staggered keys makes it hard to type due to mistyping on the wrong row Questions: - Do you have nkey rollover? - Would you accept "optional" wires? Note: gaming requires fast response times. Hell even programming/writing sucks when there's key lag.
  • striking 2y ago
    I actually don't think I'll be going back to a staggered keyboard. Ortholinear layouts make setting up layers a lot easier, which gives you the ability to set up momentary arrow key or cursor movement blocks. ZMK supports N-key rollover and layers.
  • Etheryte 2y ago
    I mean, if you're going to design and build a keyboard only for yourself all from scratch, why would you expect a standard layout? The whole thing is bespoke to you.
  • 6SixTy 2y ago
    Ortholinear is a standard but non-orthodox layout for keyboards. And when you see 60%, it means you are getting only the main alphanumeric section with esc often smushed into what would otherwise be the ~/` key. With 60% keyboards, you are often using modifier layers baked into the keyboards' firmware to get back your function keys and your control block like page up
  • cbm-vic-20 2y ago
    > Where's the arrow keys block? Insert/delete/home/end/pgup/pgdown block? In the nav layer. One popular layout of split keyboards is two 3x5 grids of keys with 3 thumb buttons. With this configuration, it is common to map modifier keys to the home row keys, activated when they are held down. Likewise, for numbers, symbols, navigation, a thumb key is held down to activate that layer. Your fingers never have to stretch more than one key-length away. Miryoku is a popular implmentation of this. It looks crazy, but you can get used to it really quickly, or alter it to your own taste. https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku https://github.com/manna-harbour/miryoku
• hinkley 2y ago
  The part of my brain that never stopped playing Tetris notices that if you had striped the color variations left to right instead of top to bottom you’d have a more uniform color variation. And if you’s put half the dark and half the light on each side then the gradient would look more purposeful. But you also probably should have printed 2x as many keys and split them up for making two copies.
  • sgraz 2y ago
    Keen eye, initially I did sort the right split from left-to-right. But also over time the fat from the fingers affected the color as well, so I figured it's a loosing battle anyway. I'm waiting for a white colored MJF print, which should eliminate these color woes once I figure out the proper dimensions.
    • hinkley 2y ago
      I’m really good at helping pack vehicles for moves. My kid got to take three extra boxes and the driver got use of the rear view mirror back because I repacked the car. So you need some sort of sealant on the keys? Or maybe just a flame polish?
      • sgraz 2y ago
        Sealant is not a bad shout once I find the perfect switch<>cap fit. This elusive tolerance gap has been my moby dick moment for some time. (So when I get around to buy a resin printer)
• jabart 2y ago
  First it looks amazing. Honest question, why do all of these keyboards never have an extra column on the right. Standard querty layout has a lot of coding related extra keys to the right than the left. Similar with the ergodox ez and moonlander. Hard to break a years long habit of going up for a curly brace or bracket then down.
  • deleted 2y ago
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  • azthecx 2y ago
    It really tends to be because the philosophy of homerow / economy of movement is quite high on the split / ergo keyboard communities, combined with the ease of creating temporary layers (imagine you had multiple programmable shift buttons).
• jjcm 2y ago
  Beautiful build, and very close to my dream keyboard. Excited to see the v2 of this. Great writeup as well - thanks for sharing!
• nonethewiser 2y ago
  It's a very impressive accomplishment. Nice job and you should be proud. My main reaction when seeing this was "this is not for me." In terms of the layout, no labels, etc. I'm actually surprised to see how many people seemingly have no problem with this.
• aylmao 2y ago
  The grid layout makes this look so futuristic (and anime [1]). It looks very cool, though I wonder how long it'd take to get used to one, having only ever typed on staggered layouts. [1] https://gifer.com/es/BFCV https://gifer.com/es/BFCV
  • jevndev 2y ago
    [dead]
  • squigz 2y ago
    I was taught to touch-type on a standard QWERTY keyboard at a very young age. I picked up an Ergodox EZ after nearly 20 years of that. It unfortunately took me at least a couple years before I was 100% again - probably 6 months to a year to get "used" to it and not mistype keys regularly. They're worth it though!
  • matthew-craig 2y ago
    [dead]
  • isaacaggrey 2y ago
    I think other commenters are overstating the change from staggered to columnar. I type just fine (100 WPM+) going between my Moonlander (split keyboard from ZSA) and my Lenovo/Macbook (typical staggered layouts). In hindsight, the biggest issue I ran into switching keyboards was that I was too ambitious playing around with the key configuration. The configurability is a big draw but I took for granted that I had already built up years of natural tendency for certain things - which thumb I use for space, preferences for Ctrl/Alt/Command/Option, for Shift, etc. The default for these keyboards probably don't 100% align with what you're used to, so you should directly map what you're doing currently over to the keymap of the keyboard and then you can fiddle with making it yours over time. I will say that if you're not already a touch typer, then a split keyboard is not going to help and it will be more difficult to get used to. edit: also, if anything, going columnar helped me actually consistently hit number keys!
  • ciberado 2y ago
    tl;dr: don't be afraid of trying it. In my case, going from a regular keyboard to a split one like he Raise[1] took me 10 minutes of adaption time. My second split one was (is) a columnar (the Defy[2]), and I must confess that the adaption time was something like three days. Mostly because I kept failing to correctly push a few keys (like the C). Now I can indistinctly work with a columnar or a stagged one with zero problem. In fact, I usually use both types many days. That said, I thought that the change would make me feel more comfortable, but to be honest in my case the difference is not big at all. [1] https://dygma.com/pages/dygma-raise-2 https://dygma.com/pages/dygma-raise-2 [2] https://dygma.com/pages/defy https://dygma.com/pages/defy
• numbers 2y ago
  wow! the design is so simple. if you were selling this, I would be throwing my money at you right now!!
• tquinn 2y ago
  My ideal keyboard would be taking a Magic keyboard (in black or space gray) and splitting it into two. This is the closest I have seen. I'm too committed to a standard layout to go ortho linear at this point, but I admit it looks the most sleek and modern for sure.
  • K7PJP 2y ago
    > My ideal keyboard would be taking a Magic keyboard (in black or space gray) and splitting it into two. Me, too. I feel there's a lot of us who want precisely this. I want every key that's on the Magic Keyboard. I already have a number of other Karabiner bindings, like the Hyper key, so I'm adding "layers" that way.
• HelloUsername 2y ago
  Typical Amsterdam street
• crazygringo 2y ago
  I always wanted Apple to make a split keyboard. Then I realized I could just buy two Magic Keyboards and use them at the same time -- typing on the left half of the left one, and the right half of the right one. After all, the proper ergonomic position is for your forearms to be parallel (not angled inward), which means the keyboard halves you're using should be approximately shoulder-width apart, so there's tons of room to use both without them colliding. Once I figured it out, I felt like an idiot for not figuring it out a decade earlier. I'm never going back.
  • Luc 2y ago
    Can you use modifier keys spanning the two keyboards? E.g. shift on the left, and a letter on the right to type a capital?
    • crazygringo 2y ago
      Yup. Though I think I may have had to install (free) Karabiner to enable that: https://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org/ https://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org/ So I'll e.g. page down by holding Fn on the left keyboard and down arrow on the right.
  • MarcelOlsz 2y ago
    I knew I shouldn't have opened HN this morning. I just scraped 3 hours off my morning trying to get this to work but my typing accuracy took an absolute nosedive.
  • deleted 2y ago
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  • ddanieltan 2y ago
    I don't know the price of a magic keyboard off the top of my head but I'm inclined to think that you could get a really good premium split keyboard for the price of buying 2 magic keyboards.
    • crazygringo 2y ago
• ddejohn 2y ago
  The link when you mention Mikefive's post only goes to the subreddit, not a specific post. Searching for "Mikefive" on reddit yielded a lot of results. I'd love to see the specific post you were referring to. Beautiful keyboard. Sent from my Allium58 Low Profile :D
  • nacs 2y ago
    It's this one https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/1cfg3vr/mikefive_a_kailh_pg1316_keyboard/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/comments/1cfg3vr/...
    • ddejohn 2y ago
      Thank you!
• donio 2y ago
  Do the two sides communicate with each other or do they act as independent devices?
  • jsheard 2y ago
    With the ZMK firmware they're using the sides usually communicate with each other. You have a "primary" side which does most of the firmware heavy lifting, including the Bluetooth connection to the PC, and a "peripheral" side which just sends raw key codes to the primary. That arrangement means the peripheral side gets significantly better battery life than the primary, so ZMK also has an optional "dongle" mode where you connect a third ZMK device directly to the PC over USB, which acts as the primary, and then both sides of the keyboard act as peripherals so they both sip power. As a bonus the dongle mode also means the PC sees it as a wired keyboard so it works in the BIOS, etc.
• maltalex 2y ago
  Nice work, very impressive! What software did you use to create the design? Any recommendations for CAD and PCB design newbies?
  • sgraz 2y ago
    CAD for the case and keycaps was Fusion360 (Paid version to have Configurations which are clutch) And the following subs were great for general CAD/Electronic knowledge * https://www.youtube.com/@Fusion360School https://www.youtube.com/@Fusion360School * https://www.youtube.com/@adafruit https://www.youtube.com/@adafruit * https://www.youtube.com/@Borgedesigns https://www.youtube.com/@Borgedesigns * https://www.youtube.com/@TheFusionEssentials https://www.youtube.com/@TheFusionEssentials * https://www.youtube.com/@joe_scotto https://www.youtube.com/@joe_scotto
• halayli 2y ago
  Great work! Maybe in the next iteration try adding a lite haptic tracking device(or similar) on the inner sides.
• NetOpWibby 2y ago
  Not my kind of keyboard style but damn this looks nice
• elromulous 2y ago
  "Sans stagger — I’m not against stagger, I just love the neat look of a pain rectangle." [sic] What an apt typo :)
  • speff 2y ago
    Pain indeed. I tried an ortho layout a few weeks ago on a split Corne and developed really bad wrist pain. No idea why, but it went away after reverting to a stagger and giving that hand a break
    • jackpeterfletch 2y ago
      I’m personally not convinced by the theory of ortho. It seems to stem from the idea that stagger is a hangover from the typewriter, in which it was required to make room for the mechanics, and that if we didn’t need to make them like that, we wouldn’t have. Hence the keys should be lined up so your fingers just move up and down. However I think this has 2 problems. 1) Most ortho keyboards have 5 columns for 4 fingers. 2) In stagger I use different fingers to strike the same letter dependent on what the preceding letter was, so that I almost never use the same finger twice in a row. You can’t do this in ortho if the 2 letters are in the same column, leading to more repeated strikes from the same finger. Which I would expect is both slower and more straining. But maybe my technique is weird, or haven’t given the ortho enough time. (if you like ortho, good for you, not trying to spoil your fun, just musing)
      • LAC-Tech 2y ago
        If you think about regular keyboard stagger though, your fingers are always going towards the top left. It's not uniform. So if this sort of stagger is good, do we want top left stagger on one side, and top right stagger on the other?
      • 3np 2y ago
        Vertical stagger is where it's at. Shifting key height per column put keeping columns straight. The comfortable level of stagger is individual. I just can't with ortho but I guess it's a good fit for some folks' hands. For most of us, middle finger rests comfortably in a higher spot than pinky does. Just look at your hand. You won't really know until you try yourself.
• jodacola 2y ago
  Beautiful keyboard. Great write-up. I would buy one at a premium price point, if you’re interested in a market data point.
• LAC-Tech 2y ago
  I like your design choices. Putting the micro-controllers at the far ends means the rest of the board can be lower, meaning less need for palm supports. Also I like you NOT having OLED screens - they're toys at best and one more thing to break at worse. As for Ortho VS Staggered, ortho has the great advantage of things like WASD just being usable out of the box, and also flexibility with things like numpad layers. I've printed paper cut outs of things like the ferris sweep to see if pinky stagger would be comfortable for me, and the answer was negative. Probably very hand dependent. Curious why aluminium and not steel? Steel is a heavier, and also has less of that pingy noise, though I have no idea about machining so perhaps it's a no go.
  • sgraz 2y ago
    I would not put OLEDs for the reasons you mentioned, but also because it would drain the battery in 1 day vs 1 week. Steel is likely better and surely stronger, but manufacturers charge 2x more for steel alloy machining. At that price level, titanium also becomes an interesting option.
• szvsw 2y ago
  Fantastic write up and beautiful design decisions. Really remarkable work! As another market data point, I would definitely pay a premium price if you were to go to market with it.
• happens 2y ago
  Awesome! Looks like it accompanied an apple trackpad, super sleek. I'm also using nice!nanos in my projects, and they're great little devices. At this point I'd love there to be a good alternative using a dongle, though... I have a desktop PC that I want to use them with, and since they can't connect via Bluetooth at boot time, I always have to connect them to select a boot option and unlock my ZFS drive. Having an affordable or open source controller that can do split as well as nice!nanos, but also switch between Bluetooth and a dongle is like the holy grail to me. I'd instantly buy 10.
  • milch 2y ago
    People make their own dongles using another nice!nano or something more compact like the Xiao BLE
• nwroot 2y ago
  Looks amazing
• bschwindHN 2y ago
  Nice work! I especially like the satisfying layout of the PCB traces, glad you didn't skimp on that detail.
• egypturnash 2y ago
  This is so pretty. I’ve been playing with a used Ergodox and this is so close to what I feel like I’d build if I made my own from scratch. The main difference is that each half is a 6x5 grid instead of 7x5, and me being fine with a wired keyboard.
• user68858788 2y ago
  I’m currently using the kinesis advantage. It’s a great keyboard but I’ve been hoping to find a wireless split keyboard for a while. This one looks great.
• ushiocheng 2y ago
  I love this. Totally have been here done that. While my aesthetics are a bit different than yours, the core idea is very similar. I just imagined if Nuphy and Planck would have a twin and come up with this. I was on a budget so I basically said fuck it to the thickness and just kept the size small. Everything was FDM and I even had a 3d printable pcb-not-so-pcb if you can’t wait at all. This runs zmk for full wireless experience, uses an nrf controller and have a battery life of over a month. I even had custom keycap with stickers on it so I can lookup rarely used keys. PS. The only cons or why I am not running this for everything is that you kind of need 2 hand to do certain things like pause the music or adjusting volume. Photo: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZwvTO3jMyY0JBKoYrA88sJk-7SXsDCc0/view?usp=drivesdk https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZwvTO3jMyY0JBKoYrA88sJk-7SX...
• rosstex 2y ago
  I once did a ton of research and settled on an ergonomic split keyboard. I ended up using it for a while but never fully got used to it enough to actually type well with it. In fact, it screwed up my typing and now I make more mistakes than I used to years later. I regret it so much. I don't understand split keyboards.
• sagarpatil 2y ago
  I have one word: Woow!
• emmelaich 2y ago
  I feel the large spaces in the middle could instead be for a trackpad. One side only of course, the other would have keys up to the edge. I often long for the convenience of the inbuilt mac trackpad when I'm using an external bluetooth keyboard and trackpad. Unfortunately the edges and the location of the trackpad charging port make it not ideal.
• rambling 2y ago
  That's insane, nice work! I know quite a few people who would buy if you ever produced even 10 of them. Part 2 having charging magnets would seem good. Me personally, I don't have 2 usb-c ports lying around that aren't already used :P
• sandreas 2y ago
  This is so funny, I dived into the custom keyboard rabbit hole just 3 weeks ago. Never thought this would be so intriguing and time consuming. Did you consider Mill-Max Sockets? My personal favorite are 80% TKL ISO low profile keyboards, which is quite uncommon and I've not found much except the Keychron K1 Max having this layout. Unfortunately, the integrated Gateron brown/red/... low profile switches are not my thing - my favorite ones would be Lofree Kailh Ghost, but these don't fit the keyboard, although it is hot swappable because low profile switches are non standard (at least 2 different layouts I know of). So I also thought about a custom solution. I found pretty impressive open source firmware and pcbs [1], but I noticed that I just didn't have the time to do all this. Since keyboards are so an individual device, manufacturing bigger batches is risky and manufacturing smaller batches is expensive... so pretty much no choice than waiting for someone having the same dream as I have or do it myself after shoving free enough time. 1: https://github.com/4pplet/waffling80/issues/1 https://github.com/4pplet/waffling80/issues/1
  • ValentinPearce 2y ago
    > I dived into the custom keyboard rabbit hole just 3 weeks ago Take your time, the GAS is real and expensive ! All jokes aside, ordering small batches of PCBs is unfortunately very expensive, especially if you have a larger size. If you ever feel the itch of going towards ergonomic split keyboards, you'll find plenty of ~40% splits that use reversible PCBs for both halves which allows for cheap batches. Typically you get 5 PCBs with JLC and that gives you enough to build one full keyboard for work and one for home.
    • sandreas 2y ago
      > If you ever feel the itch of going towards ergonomic split keyboards Unlikely. I caught my [nearly perfect] unicorn, but I'm not telling you what it is, because a.) it is too embarrassing and b.) don't wanna ruin your chase :-) There are some hints I can tell you though: + it's low profile (Kailh) + it's TKL 80% and 100% + it's available ANSI and ISO + it's wireless o it's not split (I like it this way but it depends on personal taste) - it's NOT hot swappable - it's not QMK / ZMK Probably I'm going to work on the hot-swappable thing via Mill-Max 7305 or 3305 (already ordered a pack), but the soldering will really take time, even if I use soldering paste and I have to order a second one for experimens.
• jjani 2y ago
  I'd definitely buy this to try if it works for me. > Typing on the keyboard is very comfortable due to it’s low height. No more wrist arching. Fully agreed. I went through many keyboards, from very expensive to very cheap, until I found the one my joints were okay with, and I think it was the lowest height of all. A cheap no-name, straight from Aliexpress. I think it's even lower than yours - hard to measure, but looks like ~4mm from table to top of keys. You can tell from the size of the USB-C port [1]. [1] https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/Sffc2751fa6184967aaa16f2a629ca1669.jpg https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/Sffc2751fa6184967aaa16f2a629ca166...
• Daegalus 2y ago
  Hey, this is awesome. I also have been building my own keyboard. I wanted something that others where making. Split, low profile, hotswappable, supports Kailh v1 and v2, Vertically staggered ortholinear, wireless, had more than 60 keys, closer to 68 or 75%. I had an ErgoDash before, but didn't like the high profile, and modding it to be wireless was a bit finicky. I had already used and made my first prototype and realized my thumb cluster was not positioned right and not comfortable for use. So I have the PCBs for the Prototype 2 where the entire bottom row is shifted in. I learned a lot about PCB design and MCUs through this. Yours looks SOOO much better laid out compared to mine too. Old pictures of prototype 1: https://photos.app.goo.gl/VhqQmjGyzTeBbKFQ9 https://photos.app.goo.gl/VhqQmjGyzTeBbKFQ9 ( have top and bottom plates, i just never used them because i found the thumb cluster issue quickly) (there is an ErgoDash pictured too that I used previously, modded to be wireless) Life, becoming a father, moving to a different country, and so many things have put this project on hold, but I will finish it soon.
• Umang018 2y ago
  This is really impressive, especially considering the complexity of designing a wireless split keyboard from scratch! Having built my own mechanical keyboard before (though not wireless), I know how much goes into PCB design, key switch selection, and firmware development. One challenge I’ve seen with wireless keyboards (especially splits) is managing synchronization lag between halves. Some DIY split builds struggle with Bluetooth interference, while others use NRF-based communication. What approach did you take to keep latency low and ensure reliable keypress synchronization? Also, how does the power efficiency compare to something like a ZMK-powered split?
  • varispeed 2y ago
    Maybe stupid question, but can split keyboard work as two separate keyboards connecting independently to the operating system? That way you don't have to synchronise anything.
    • zxter 2y ago
      There’s no issue with a computer recognizing two keyboards, but smaller keyboards often lack all the keys found on a standard one. So, you’ll need to use modifiers to create the keystroke and then send it to the computer. If you press a modifier on one half, the other half needs to be aware of it to send the final keystroke. Creating a layout with these modifier-based key combinations is just a small part of the many tricks you can pull off with custom firmware. While the computer thinks it’s connected to a standard keyboard, you can do some really deep customization on the keyboard side.
      • varispeed 2y ago
        Wouldn't operating system take care of that?
        • zxter 2y ago
          When you have two halves of a keyboard recognized as separate keyboards by the computer, then just like you said. For example, if you press shift on the left half and u on the right, the computer first sees the shift and then the u. It then types a capital U. But in my case, let's say I don't have any numbers on the keyboard. Instead, I use modifier keys to create a layer for numeric values. So, when I press a modifier on the left, the computer won't notice. Then, pressing what would normally be the U key on the right sends a 7 instead. The computer just sees a 7 being pressed.
• saltcod 2y ago
  Beautifully done. I would buy this board in a heartbeat. I'd also buy a course on how you built it.
  • deleted 2y ago
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• samstave 2y ago
  Beautiful! I have these ultra thin bt keyboards that came in a leather ipad case from Restoration Hardware... SUPER THIN. These bitches better have a lot of magnets! (oh saw that in future. and the LED thingy -- if you can have a display in the side panels, that would be nifty - and a second BT object? Whereby the display in the side panels is BT to phone and thus get distractions. my problem with small super thin BT keyboards is that the materials are too slippy -- so a tacky-ish finish so they dont slide around when on a surface such as a pant leg or so... also, a curved version of this would be great for a sleave version - with magnets so that you slap one on your fore-arm. could even have power/connectivity coming from wires in the garment that they attach to. Magnets basically. Need lots. -- what if... since the thing is so small, the actual object is the mouse? So you can choose l/r object and then just grab it and mouse about?
• kirillzubovsky 2y ago
  Yes. Shut up and take my money! This is exactly what I've been looking for and couldn't find. Seriously, can I just give you money and take the prototype right now?
  • kirillzubovsky 2y ago
    p.s. you'll see a million opinions on how to improve it, but this is perfect. don't overcomplicate it. Apple Keyboard, split in half, is literally all there need to be and nothing more. It's perfect!