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I'm done with coding
- glitchc 2y agoSo, did you quit?
- stuaxo 2y agoAbsolutely can't blame them.
- Philpax 2y agoKind of a strange sentiment? It seems like you're willing to take a paycut, so there's no shortage of jobs that will pay you a sustainable, but not FAANG, income to work on something respectable. I get wanting to take a break after working on something distasteful - I've been there! - but I can't say I'd give up on the field entirely after one job.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- threatofrain 2y agoThis person isn't really quitting software... they're just putting time into their own startup instead.
- rgbrgb 2y agoAppreciate the moral stand against surveillance-tech and totally sympathize with leaving big tech to do startups (I did the same!) but I don't get the title. Isn't OP still coding his software startup [0]? [0]: https://www.fourplex.net https://www.fourplex.net
- tinyhouse 2y ago[flagged]
- nimish 2y agoAs a wise man once said, "drunk driving may kill a lot of people, but it also helps a lot of people get to work on time, so, it;s impossible to say if its bad or not,"
- Twisol 2y agoAnd you do not, under any circumstances, "gotta hand it to them". (highly relevant @dril quotes, for those out of the loop)
- waspleg 2y agoHow's your social credit score?
- peteforde 2y agoI challenge you to rewrite this so that you're making a strong, optimistic argument for surveillance from your perspective, instead of shitting on a young person for trying to navigate a path through legitimately complex tradeoffs. The onus is on you to make a thought-provoking case, not for them to convince you that their internal ethical alarm bells are reasonable.
- botanical76 2y agoIsn't it self evident that this person has principles if they have left their job over it? Does Visa Insights save lives?
- esperent 2y agoIf the author is reading this: thank you for having the strength to say no to morally wrong work, despite the money, despite pressure from your family. Good for you. You stood up for your morals. I wish that more people had your strength. You are experiencing an identity crisis over this, which is normal. Writing about it is good. Talking to a therapist would probably be good too, if that works for you. If I can give one piece of advice, it would be to stop talking in absolutes. Instead of "I'm done with coding", which is final and sets a stake in the ground which is hard to come back from, why not say "I'm putting down coding for a while to focus on my startup". For many people, myself included, it's normal to have many different interests over a lifetime. This is a good, and normal, thing.
- harryquach 2y ago> In fact, I’ll just live off dividend income and try to get my new IT startup Fourplex off the ground It’s easy to say no when the money is not needed.
- esperent 2y agoDon't be dismissive of people's challenges in life, especially when they have the strength to share them. Money isn't the only cause of pressure in the world.
- harryquach 2y ago> Money isn’t the only cause of pressure in the world. Of course not. However having FU money relieves many of them. Taking a moral stance is far less impressive when nothing is on the line.
- dingnuts 2y agoIt's actually worse than that. By holding his stocks he remains invested in the company in every meaning of the word. The dividends he's living on are the literal fruit of the proverbial sin that caused him to quit. In order to be morally honest about divesting himself of this line of business he needs to sell his stock. He should invest it in something else, that he believes in, so that any dividends are thus just.
- 0xbadcafebee 2y ago[flagged]
- Zamiel_Snawley 2y agoThis post does not deserve such self-righteous vitriol.
- t-writescode 2y agoI’m nearly 40 and have threatened quitting over things that violated my conscience within the last 5 years. They recanted. Belief systems, convictions and morals don’t have an age limit. They may have a “I need to not die” limit, but that’s the American lack of a social safety net.
- GrumpyCat42 2y agoCalling young people stupid and idiots is a very poor way to get this point across, even if it's meant in an endearing way (which I'm suspicious of). This cynicism is also entirely unwarranted, especially when your own personal example is, frankly, far more childish than anything in the OP. A company actively harming society through surveillance projects is a societal/ethics concern with the company essentially being a malicious actor. A company not properly securing their (presumably-internal) NFS is, at worst, a flaw/misconfiguration that was obviously not high priority. The audacity of making some IT department's lives harder, people who are trying to tick a box, sends up so many red flags -- you can laugh about the inefficiencies in private with your mates, you can quit like the OP to find more efficient places to work, but you don't hold up other people trying to get that "god damn retirement money." Don't compare your 20 years of technical tiffs with someone's desire to do what's right for their people.
- hahajk 2y agoHis mom telling him he's "neurodivergent and won’t survive at a smaller company"... unfortunately I am familiar with this type of mother.
- gunian 2y agoat least she won't tell him computers are the devil
- tracerbulletx 2y agoI'm neurodivergent and working at a small company lead to me being the CTO and forcing myself to understand (and operate successfully with in) the social and political aspects of business for the first time.
- Nevermark 2y agoI don't know if I am neurodivergent (on days I take my meds, eat all my superfoods, and exercise for the third day in a row (I would say "or more days", but you know)), but I can say that having a clear and motivating goal is the best way to learn anything, no matter how unnatural/challenging it seems at first. As long at it has put itself between myself and my goal. Also, hardship. I have learned so much from that, that it feels almost hypocritical not to heartily recommend it.
- keyle 2y agoI don't understand this type of parenting, and I'm sorry you had this. I'm fairly certain I'm not the smartest guy around, never was, but my mother never put anything in my path to make me believe I wasn't.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ForTheKidz 2y agoI can say it's been far easier for my neurodivergent ass to survive at a small company where everyone knows each other and can see the work put in. Difficulties with socialization and consistency of working hours—both things I struggle with—are much easier to deal with when you clearly have each others' backs and won't shirk the work. Sadly starting my own company, I realized how hard it is to work with founders who are neurodivergent in a different and incompatible ways. Just be prepared to examine the culture closely to figure out if it's a fit for you. I'm now at a massive household brand name company and every day I want to rip my eyeballs out and give up on capitalism forever. Whoever thought big government was incompetent needs to understand the colossal waste and inefficiency of private enterprise will always dwarf that of the public sector.
- colesantiago 2y ago"> I’ve decided that in the shitty job market, it’s not worth being a software engineer even if I make much less. Part of it is being “specialized” in over-glorified surveillance so even if I change employers, what’s the guarantee I won’t be working on another surveillance product. Assuming I can even get another job. ...While six figures is certainly nice, it’s only nice if it’s ethically done. I’d much rather flip burgers or bag groceries than work on surveillance for six figures. " Almost all companies, startups and corporations have surveillance in some way shape or form, if it is product analytics, webpage views, tracking, etc, even Mozilla has got into tracking, although the pay isn't FAANG level. Unless you don't want to make over 6 figures in the US (assuming that is where he is from), perhaps work at a non-profit e.g. EFF or governmental work. It's really expensive to be very principled, I'm sure your rent, family and children would thank you, especially if you leave the ENTIRE field and have no means of income other than savings which will certainly be spent on them rather than your startup.
- j16sdiz 2y ago> Almost all company,... have surveillance... If i understand correctly, OP was working on surveillance-enabling AI technology. Unlike traditional surveillance, it can actually scales. and no, how high the false rate the AI is doesn't really matter. What really matters is is the fear of being constantly watched
- colesantiago 2y agoThey are all the same, surveillance-enabling, traditional surveillance is still surveillance and both fall under surveillance capitalism. For website owners, as soon as you run or load Google Analytics, you are participating in surveillance capitalism for Google. Same with email tracking links, IoT devices sending tracking data, product analytics or any identifying information.
- recursivedogs 2y ago[dead]
- tombert 2y ago> I’ve tried to discuss this with my mom, and she kept telling me how “lucky” I am for working at Microsoft... I don't think I worked on any unethical part of Apple, I just worked on the indexing and caching for iTunes, but I really hated working there, and it was frustrating that whenever I complained about it, people would remind me how lucky I was to have a job at Apple. I survived 2.5 years there, but eventually I had to quit (taking a fairly substantial pay cut in the process). I think my parents thought I was nuts, but my mood improved almost immediately.
- ivewonyoung 2y agoCould you explain why you hated working there
- sodapopcan 2y agoThey said they worked on indexing and caching.
- nvader 2y agoAlong with naming things, the two hardest problems in computer science.
- _heimdall 2y agoI believe you were off by one there.
- Brian_K_White 2y agoAt least they commented, so the coding guide is satisfied.
- latentsea 2y agoActual two hardest problems appear to be 1. Tolerating working at FAANG. 2. Watching others who work at FAANG collect FAANG level salary while you don't.
- eibhinn 2y agoI once worked for a start-up that perpetuated inflated social status symbols in a way I found repugnant. Transitioning to an academic non-profit environment was the best career decision I could have made for my mental health. Less money, yes. Less stress and self-loathing, absolutely and entirely worth it for me.
- gunian 2y agoi once worked for a startup that called me a monkey sadly that was the last time i did python how did you switch if you don't mind me asking? if someone is very unsocial has no network is it doable
- stevebmark 2y agoWhat? How much money did this person make working on software they consider surveillance, before deciding they were comfortable enough to leave? Looks like they made enough money to live off “dividend income.” Something about their dad? The hell is this?
- harryquach 2y agoYeah, this post is mostly rambling nonsense
- proc0 2y agoYeah surveillance never works, at least not in the long term. Either people like what they work on or they don't, and adding a layer of corporate hypocrisy, where you need to pretend to be excited about every single tiny change, does not help. Some products are just boring and I can't fathom how some people get excited about it. The cynic in me tells me everyone is faking it, and that is soul crushing to think about. The alternative is that some people are that boring and have nothing else in their lives going on so they look forward to adding yet another button or boring feature for the Nth time.
- colesantiago 2y agoBut if it pays the bills such that your kids can eat for another day and that your family have a roof over their heads, wouldn't it be worth it? I don't see any other FAANG level jobs that do not do surveillance in some way or are 100% ethical, as the author wants. He said it himself, it is a "shitty job market" so surely not everyone in the job market will be paying over 6 figures and be 100% ethical with no surveillance. Sure, you can build your own startup without surveillance and that is fine, but the compromise is a pay cut and if you have family, rent and children, it would be hard to explain to them why you left your 6 figure job, because "privacy" and "the woes of surveillance capitalism".
- smgit 2y agoHave you heard of Karl Marx? - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmcUcHZciFM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmcUcHZciFM
- proc0 2y agoI'm just saying it's sad how it creates an atmosphere of "fakeness" for lack of a better word. Nobody can really voice their real opinion, and so nobody is presenting their real selves. I'm also commenting beyond the privacy matter. It's the combination of everyone being afraid to just be themselves because they need the job, and HR/leadership constant b.s. claiming it's an open and safe space. I should also say I'm mostly talking about large companies.
- deleted 2y ago
- skywhopper 2y agoIn terms of neurodivergence, I’ve found for myself over 27 years, that working at large companies is in fact the problem, and smaller places with more flexibility and broader responsibilities is far more rewarding.
- GrumpyCat42 2y agoThis is the case for non-neurodivergent people too. Large companies these days are, largely, an exercise in corporate politics rather than solving technical problems.
- breakitmakeit 2y ago[dead]
- vips7L 2y agoWhat a cynical view. You can switch jobs! Nothing is going to force you to work on surveillance software! I spent nearly a decade working on Salesforce. It’s not even on my resume and you couldn’t pay me to do it!
- t-writescode 2y agoIt’s the view of someone currently hurting, disillusioned, tired and angry. It may change or it may not; but it’s a valid feeling, especially for right now.
- vips7L 2y agoI meant my post to positive and to show that your past doesn’t define you!
- GrumpyCat42 2y agoThis hits very close to home and I'm very glad to see I am (and you are) not alone. Thank you for writing it. I'm currently in the process of leaving my "big tech" job. While I won't name my company, it is somewhat similar in some ways -- though ethics isn't my primary reason. > I’ve decided that in the shitty job market, it’s not worth being a software engineer even if I make much less. is a thought that has run through my head countless times over the past year, and when I finally gave my notice >she kept telling me how “lucky” I am for working at Microsoft saying “it’s big tech” and “you’re neurodivergent” and “you won’t survive at a smaller company.” was the loudest thing I heard, over and over again. Best of luck with Fourplex.
- esco27 2y agoI don't know you, but it sounds like you have principles you stand for and that's rare. If you have a talent for something that can do good in the world it's worth pursuing. I'd take a break and find a place that aligns with your values. Best of luck.
- WD-42 2y agoI’d never heard of viva insights. Looked it up. Do people actually use this stuff? Who? Why? It looks like something middle management would use to generate a few plots in order to justify their useless jobs. I’d run from any employer that seriously bought into something like this.
- Nevermark 2y agoThe market for tools, data and services which provide a helpful and comforting fuzzy veneer of activity and intentionality to the work of individuals, companies, and educational systems that are floundering is exceedingly large.
- Havoc 2y agoIt’s not employer it’s HR. They love this sort of human metrics collection stuff and how giving people access to „insights“ about how they used their time will somehow make things better. Employee wellbeing and all that corporate lingo
- mgfist 2y agoNeel, based on your linkedin, you're 27 or 28. You're a grown adult. Stop following your mom's orders. Quit your job, take some time off to decompress and recover from your clear burnout, then figure out what you want to do. Life isn't Microsoft or flipping burgers. There's a lot of things in between. You have one life, don't waste it trying to please others. But simultaneously, don't assume that your burnout is permanent. Just take a break my friend.
- cmdtab 2y agoHe seems to be of Indian origin. Indian households can be very tight knit and prioritize financial success a lot more.
- handfuloflight 2y agoTight knit might be downplaying the hold mothers of the subcontinent tend to have over their children.
- ericjmorey 2y agoAll the more reason why they need to hear the truth
- echelon 2y agoNeel, don't crawl into a hole. Use your skill. Fuck big tech. Let's use these LLMs that they think will replace us all to create browser agents that remove ads, tracking, click bait, attention stealing... heck, we could even de-engagement farm the internet. No more trolling, hate, or toxicity. If we all get personal assistants at the edge on our own pane of glass and hardware, then they have to pay us for access. Want to show me an ad? Pay up. Neel, quite often in life it turns out that your burning problem is also a thousand other people's burning problem. In your case, it's billions.
- cmdtab 2y agoUnrelated. What happened to your anime studio?
- abc-1 2y agoRespect for standing up for what he believes in. A lot of people in this industry would have no problem building drones that bomb children if it gave them a good “total comp”.
- gunian 2y ago[flagged]
- dtquad 2y ago>After all, Edward Snowden had a “stable” federal government job (...) and he gave it up to stand up for the right to privacy Edward Snowden was primarily critical of Obama era foreign policy in the Middle East not being notably different from Bush. That is also why he send the data to writers and journalists whose work was primarily critical of US foreign policy. Of course he understandably pivoted to become a privacy activist when the Internet overnight wishcasted him into that role and ignored his criticism of US foreign policy.
- zombiwoof 2y agoI have a manger , in a big billion dollar company who is now using AI and checking in 2000 lines of python It’s bonkers stupid
- ClownsAbound 2y ago[dead]
- assimpleaspossi 2y agoWhenever anyone refers to themselves as a "coder", I always think, "Would Hemingway call himself a typist?" Calling oneself a coder is only a recent occurrence. I never heard the term until a few years ago; possibly due to all the hobbyists getting involved. Coding is the end result of programming. I'm a programmer and proud of it.
- julianeon 2y agoI've got this sentiment reading a few such goodbye letters like this. They often end by saying something like, "I quit software engineering. Because I can't make money at it, under these conditions." As if the options were work for Big Tech; work for a YC company (aka embryonic Big Tech); or be poor. So I'm gonna say it like this, to get the vibe across: It's pretty easy to run some Internet businesses and equal your software eng salary, as the owner of those businesses. Not in year one, but if your goal is to hit ~40k in the first year and then scale up over a couple years, you can do it. Also it is vastly easier if you have the capital to jump to the front of the line and skip the horrible 1 year of waiting for traffic/users to come, and just buy a business. Then you're in business from day one and can complete this more quickly and less stressfully. Elon did it with Tesla and he's now the world's richest man; learn from his example. It's funny that this ends up being a kind of "secret knowledge" because it falls between the cracks of tech and corporate incentives. Big companies won't teach you this, because lol why would they teach you how to screw them and quit. VC's won't (exactly) teach you this, because while they are generically supportive of entrepreneurship and while it is easier to earn less money than more money (obviously), they want you to go straight for the billion dollar ideas and discourage small money thinking. Which leads to this outcome of like 100 engineers trying and only 5 making it through the gauntlet and becoming rich, rather than >90 making it if only the incentives were different. Incidentally I recently bought a business and, after spending a lot of time in the nitty gritty "weeds" of making an Internet $10 as opposed to "zero to one" thinking, this is all coming into focus. But as I said, it's a kind of secret knowledge, which you have to piece together from YouTube, newsletters, and doing the effort - that last part of which is like 80% of the real learning. In my case I bought something and then learned on the job; fortunately the profits did not suffer. So I'm here to tell you this is doable; it's definitely doable. If you're a software engineer of average intelligence for a software engineer, you can do it. Figuring it out isn't easy, but it's very far from impossible.
- bix6 2y agoWhat sort of businesses do you recommend? I’m hesitant to take on someone else’s codebase.
- 2y ago
- costco 2y agoClicked on this post because the domain name sounded familiar from the Tor mailing list. I knew you ran a large set of relays but didn't know you were also a pretty extensive contributor over many years! You're definitely smart and if you were able to get a job at Microsoft you're capable of getting a job at most other places, so this doesn't really have to be a permanent decision if you don't want it to be. You can work at Let's Encrypt, Tor, Signal, etc while making an impact and still doing pretty well for yourself. Anyways, in the spirit of this forum, I wish you luck with your startup.
- _ink_ 2y agoI fear I am done with it as well. I am trying this AI thing and it's really good at it. So I can't motivate myself, to spend the mental energy to code it myself. But starting new tasks is very difficult for me and every new prompt feels like a new task. In the past, when I finally managed to actually start coding I would eventually get in the zone and be productive. Now with this AI stuff, the constant back and forth, the constant waiting for the output to complete, it does prevent me from getting into the zone.
- bix6 2y agoCoding is one of my favorite things when I get to do it on my own terms which I’ve achieved while growing up and learning/playing as well as working for a few small startups. I would die if I had to write API frameworks all day and I struggled as a sysadmin when I was expected to be on 24/7 (but loved some aspects of it like ansible and pentesting). I’m currently a businessman and miss coding so I’ve just started using cursor for personal projects while on vacation and am having an absolute blast.
- infinitebit 2y agoI think it’s worth trying for ethical coding jobs for a bit. I think with your resume you could work at a lot of places, and you may be able to rekindle passion for something that you used to love and make six figures.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- medhir 2y agoThanks for sharing man. I think quite a few of us are fed up with the status quo in tech. I was also at Microsoft until fairly recently, and although I didn’t feel like my immediate work was “unethical”, I’ve felt for quite some time that leadership is completely out of touch with workers. The copilot push in 2022, coinciding with firing the AI ethics team, is a prime example of actions that felt reckless. I wonder what it’s going to take for tech workers like us to collectively say “enough is enough” to the grotesque avarice we see from tech leadership. I’m not holding my breath, and have essentially no desire to find another role in the industry.
- preaching5271 2y agoCool, more room for professionals