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Violence alters human genes for generations, researchers discover
- mannyv 2y ago"offers the first human evidence" That's untrue. There was plenty of evidence for epigenetics before this study. The one that I remember is the Överkalix study in Sweden.
- ch4s3 2y agoThere isn’t a single other human study showing methylation persisting on the same genes across 3 generations. It’s only been demonstrated in mice once prior and with some controversy.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- stanleykm 2y ago> The idea that trauma and violence can have repercussions into future generations should help people be more empathetic, help policymakers pay more attention to the problem of violence This seems like a pretty charitable read on policymakers. We inflict violence all the time that has multigenerational downstream effects without a genetic component and we don’t really care about the human cost, why would adding a genetic component change anything?
- dleeftink 2y agoMaybe the only way to get out of a cycle is, trying to get out of the cycle?
- stanleykm 2y agoSure but I think if an appeal to empathy was going to work we’d already have seen it work.
- haswell 2y agoProgress if often gradual and the result of continuous pressure over long periods of time. Not everyone will respond to an appeal to empathy, but I don't think "we'd have already seen it work" is a framing that makes sense.
- weard_beard 2y agoIs it even desirable to avoid something nature selected for? The biggest assumption here is that these epigenetic mutations aren’t desirable for survival in a chaotic and violent world
- EMIRELADERO 2y agoIt's only undesirable under the assumption that a chaotic and violent world is an acceptable state of affairs.
- weard_beard 2y agoI could swallow that argument but in isolation this feels like using the abused as lab rats so we can more thoroughly destroy them at some future date
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y agoProgress is completely random and arbitrary. Sometimes it zooms forward, other times it regresses. The universe has no mystical rules that demand that it continue. >Not everyone will respond to an appeal to empathy I don't even think we use the word "empathy" correctly. It makes sense to me when we're talking about a non-general empathy, where you see a particular person close to you (physically, if not emotionally) and you feel for them. You can't have empathy with some abstract hypothetical. You can't even have empathy for some large loosely defined group of people of the non-hypothetical sort. And, most of all, it's largely spontaneous. If you go into it having already decided you feel empathy for them "just on principle", then what you're feeling isn't empathy. It's performative. It's virtue signaling. Pretending that is empathy does empathy no favors, and it does no favors to the people who are supposedly being empathized with. Because it is performative, it's always just this thin veneer of compassion over an inadequately hidden contempt. Worse still may be those who lie to themselves so successfully that they believe that it's real empathy, the hatred is buried deeper but festers all the more for it. Appeal to pragmatism instead of empathy. You can make rational arguments if you're trying to be pragmatic. Appeal to justice. Appeal to anything but empathy. When I hear the word "empathy", I know that I'm about to have a load of horseshit dumped on me. You all know it too, even if you're worried that other people will shun you if you admit it out loud.
- eurekin 2y agoTypical policymaker: "noted, so we have confirmation for condemning whole generations"
- westurner 2y agoBecause later generations shouldn't be forced pay the cost for such violence that they didn't perpetrate or perpetuate. To make it real when there's no compassion, loving kindness, or the golden rule: War reparations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_reparations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_reparations
- tsunamifury 2y agoYou could argue that’s the trauma expressing itself through derivative real experiences into the future.
- westurner 2y agoIt is the purpose of criminal and civil procedure to force parties that caused loss, violence, death and trauma to pay for their offenses. We have a court system that is supposed to abide Due Process so that there are costs to inflicting trauma (without perpetuating a vicious cycle).
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- A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y agoI think you may want to re-read parent. They are saying that the reason you gave ( all of which were provided before ) barely restrained human kind from doing what it /was/is/will be doing.
- westurner 2y agoIf compassion and war reparations are insufficient to deter unjust violence, what will change the reinforced behaviors?
- harimau777 2y agoIronically, the ability to reciprocate with violence is the only thing that has reliably deterred violence.
- bloomingkales 2y agoI'll quote Michael Douglas from Traffic, "If there is a war on drugs, then many of our family members are the enemy. And I don’t know how you wage war on your own family". His daughter was knee deep in heroin addiction as he was tasked to criminalize everyone. By the end of the movie he was changed imo. We have no way of giving such an experience to those in power. The best we can do going forward is pick more well rounded people, and no, that doesn't mean great schools and great wealth. You must be experienced in life.
- boringg 2y agoI mean not to fan the flames of war on drugs - but its supposed to be targeting supply chain and large distributors
- bloomingkales 2y agoIt's a 24 year old movie. Around that time the history of the drug war involved a lot more petty criminalization (look how far we've come). This discussion can veer.
- staplers 2y agoLaw enforcement doesn't typically target itself and the ruling class.
- derektank 2y agoFormer Senator Bob Menendez would be very surprised to learn that
- potato3732842 2y agoIgnoring the fact that the word "typically" was highly operative, he's a great example of the point you're trying to undermine. The government never would have gone away empty handed with no conviction of any sort like they did the first time they went after Menendez in the late 2010s. A normal peasant would have had their life ruined and been just barely scraping by in the 2020s when he was doing the things that ultimately got him put away.
- butlike 2y agoIf you're in a violent environment, that environment will be so antithetical to survivability, it's prudent for your genes to transcript you were in a violent environment for multiple generations.
- heresie-dabord 2y ago> we don’t really care about the human cost Humanity risks a global return to a state of gleeful cruelty. "Lupus est homo homini". [1] The well-being of people is a characteristic of successful society. And labour is fundamentally valuable. For those who seek economic pre-eminence, it makes perfect sense to invest in the people doing the work. However, there are narrow-minded groups and individuals who see another equation: put workers in an exploitable condition and keep them in such condition over generations. Wars have been fought to preserve the investment in maintaining such conditions. Labour is valuable, but the individual cost in human life is usually dismissed through demagogy and populism. We had broken the historical cycle of misery, but we now risk the achievements of our civilisation. [1] _ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_homini_lupus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_homini_lupus
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- mlhpdx 2y agoThe nature of the changes aren’t well understood. It seems dangerous to assume that they are unhealthy, or somehow destructive when the opposite could just as easily be true. The children of those experiencing violence may be more robust in some ways rather than the opposite. It’s an interesting finding, and something to be understood better, but jumping to the conclusion that it’s a bad thing it’s just dismissive of the robustness of humanity in general.
- clarkmoody 2y agoFuture generations aren't voting in the next election.
- ch4s3 2y agoThe actual study is about exposure to pretty extreme violence during pregnancy having epigenetic effects beyond one generation to F4. This is the first study to ever present such evidence in humans since some caution is warranted here with any conclusions.
- carbocation 2y agoI'm perplexed by this university press release. Do they really not link to the underlying research article that they're discussing?
- riffic 2y agoyou can put the researchers names into a search engine (ask an academic librarian if you need help). I'm not sure if it's in the scope of the press release to link directly to primary sources.
- RicoElectrico 2y agoYes, it is. Top universities do.
- carbocation 2y agoTo give you a better understanding of how this works, if my university didn’t include a link to my research in the press release about my publication, I’d contact them to issue a correction. That’s how fundamental it is to link to the research article.
- riffic 2y agothis is a blog, not a rigorous publication with citations or formality.
- carbocation 2y agoThat's a misunderstanding. This is not a "blog"; this is a press release from a university on its newsfeed. Linking to their own researcher's work is not a matter of being "rigorous" and is unrelated (and not at all similar) to academic citations.
- cududa 2y agoIs that a genuine question? You’ve never once seen a university press release boiled down for the general public, without a link to underlying research?
- randomdrake 2y agoThe original research[0] is available for free online. It goes into more detail about how they established the genetic signatures and has a lot more images as well. Epigenetic signatures of intergenerational exposure to violence in three generations of Syrian refugees [0] - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-89818-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-89818-z
- yieldcrv 2y agoI'm very interested in this branch of same-generation evolution, as this is one of the core components excluded from Natural Selection theory I'm very skeptical about it, but they do suggest they have a control group to observe in this study. Despite not being able to pinpoint an actual effect of these genetic markets.
- vessenes 2y agoThis is basic Mediterranean basin wisdom, known for a very long time: “I am a jealous God punishing the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation.” One of the two mentions also says blessings are passed down 1000 generations, both of which seem pretty in line with modern evolutionary and epigenetic theory.
- A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 2y agoIt does, doesn't it. The undesirable traits are weeded out and the desirable traits remain in the pool.
- uludag 2y agoThese seem to be rather different things though. I'm pretty sure this biblical passage is referring to a metaphysical concept, involving morality. Plus this article is a study about being on the receiving end of violence, not being the perpetrator of.
- cess11 2y agoBronze age morality was rather different than what most readers here will have in mind when seeing you use that word.
- janalsncm 2y agoThe problem I have (besides the fact that its guidances are often quite different from contemporary norms) is that it doesn’t capture the complexity of what I would consider to be interesting ethical questions. For example, is it ethical to create a company which automates the job of a large class of workers? Is it ethical to use such a product? I don’t even think the Golden Rule can account for it, frankly, because the “others” in “do unto others” can be multiple parties, some of whom are helped and some who are harmed.
- cess11 2y agoSure, if the workers get to control the means of production.
- bregma 2y agoDoes this rehabilitate Lysenkoism? I am a little confused by how there can be epigenetic genetic modifications. I'm not a biologist, but it seems to me that if it's epigenetic, it's not genetic and vice-versa.
- shermantanktop 2y agoI'm not a biologist either, but from my reading there are many cellular elements that influence genetic expression that are not encoded in DNA. And those elements can mutate as a result of the individual's experience during their lifetime. Some of them have independent genetic lines. DNA = behavior is reductive.
- retep_kram 2y ago"While our genes are not changed by life experiences, they can be tuned through a system known as epigenetics." It is indeed not a modification of the genetic code. And the transmission of epigenetic state from one generation to the next is much less straightforward.
- bregma 2y agoThe article says this. But there is another lasting effect of the attack, hidden deep in the genes of Syrian families. The grandchildren of women who were pregnant during the siege — grandchildren who never experienced such violence themselves — nonetheless bear marks of it in their genomes. Passed down through their mothers, this genetic imprint offers the first human evidence of a phenomenon previously documented only in animals: The genetic transmission of stress across multiple generations. The article clearly implies a modify of the genes. The genome is altered.
- ch4s3 2y agoThe actual study doesn’t make that claim, the article is presenting it incorrectly. They’re talking about a methylation on certain genes. Think of it as amplification or attenuation and of a signal. The signal is the same, just weaker or stronger.
- cryptophreak 2y agoWhile the article frames this phenomenon as self-evidently negative, I suspect the lack of war-related stress is also a driver of island tameness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_tameness https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_tameness) in humans. To quote Theodore Roosevelt: "The curse of every ancient civilization was that its men in the end became unable to fight. Materialism, luxury, safety, even sometimes an almost modern sentimentality, weakened the fibre of each civilized race in turn; each became in the end a nation of pacifists, and then each was trodden under foot by some ruder people that had kept that virile fighting power the lack of which makes all other virtues useless and sometimes even harmful."
- rpastuszak 2y ago> I suspect the lack of war-related stress is also a driver of island tameness [...] in humans Why?
- Der_Einzige 2y agoWe evidently hate the weak, egalitarianism, happiness, pacifism, jainists/unitarians universalists/Baháʼí, etc. Humanity's favorite emotion is Schadenfreude. This sword of damocles shit that justifies the boot being on our face forever can fuck right off.
- rpastuszak 2y agoHonestly it's one of those ideas that make less sense the more you think about it. That quote and wikipedia link is drawing a connection between history as it was understood in the 19th century (e.g. unilineal evolutionism) and the behaviour of dodos.
- justonceokay 2y agoThis might have been true before technology but yet again the nerds ruin everything. Now that I think about it, this theory doesn’t really hold past tribalism. The Industrial Revolution is why England could conquer half the planet, not the brutish nature of the English. Maybe in the future even the drones will have ennui and want to become dancers.
- Fin_Code 2y agoI'm not sure why they are calling out a specific conflict. People don't have objective violence barometers. Every act of new worst violence you ever experience is the worst ever until something worse happens.
- streptomycin 2y agoI didn't read this study, but I can't help but comment that past studies on this topic are of dubious quality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenerational_trauma#Criticism_of_inherited_trauma_via_epigenetics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgenerational_trauma#Criti... so very likely this is nonsense too. I think the main problem is that something like "science proves generational trauma is real" is a nice headline, so people p-hack it into existence. "Science proves that generational trauma is not real" is just a null hypothesis being confirmed - not a publishable result and nobody cares, so you'll never hear about it. So be very skeptical of nice headlines, especially in university press releases!
- ch4s3 2y agoI read this study earlier in the week. It doesn’t have a larger sample size, but the way they identified the genes could present problems. They did a whole genome search and found 21 genes with the associated change, across 131 participants. It’s hard to know if f they’ve correctly isolated that the cause is the conflict exposure. There could be a lot of other things going on here. The first group where the grandmothers were exposed all moved to Jordan in 1980, and the other group on 2011. There could be something about moving to and living in Jordan that caused the methylation. Here’s the link to the study https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-89818-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-89818-z
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- derektank 2y ago"There's new evidence that historical trauma is passed down through changes to the genome!" "Genome or epigenome?" "...epigenome." I feel like I read of a similar study every few years, the first I can recall was 'Transgenerational response to nutrition, early life circumstances and longevity'[1], and it is always needlessly disappointing to thumb through past the headline and read that, inevitably, the media has decided to report this as a change to the genome when the actual research suggests otherwise. Epigenetic changes are interesting in their own right! But they don't change human genes, at most they change gene expression. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/5201832 https://www.nature.com/articles/5201832
- svara 2y agoDNA methylation is epigenetic, and that's a direct chemical alteration of DNA. The title isn't wrong, and your example sentence isn't wrong either.
- red75prime 2y agoEpigenetic changes are scrubbed from germ cells. It's unclear whether observed persistence is explained by the changes escaping scrubbing process or by reintroduction due to other mechanism (being raised by a single mother, refugee hardships and the like).
- ForTheKidz 2y ago> But they don't change human genes, at most they change gene expression. It's not clear in this case what the difference is between gene, gene expression, and gene encoding. What does gene mean if it does not imply either encoding or expression? If this is a disagreement about the semantics of encoding, surely it'd be easiest to express this in terms of encoding. If this is about gene expression, surely it'd be easiest to express this in terms of expression. "gene" largely has no meaning outside of encoding/expression. It seems clear to me the article is indicating a distinction of encoding. I'm not sure where the ambiguity is.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
- fjjjrjj 2y agoGenerational trauma is really hard to resolve. A therapist once told me "family systems don't like change." The really old family dynamics have a way of being passed down and reinforced. We settle into roles that perpetuate them. Interesting that there is not just social pressure but also genetic pressure that may be perpetuating the trauma. My grandfather drove a tank through Europe for the allies during WW2 and I know that is still impacting me and my kids. He self medicated his presumed PTSD with alcohol and died young before I was born. That impacted my father and the way he related to me. And I am sure it impacts how I relate to my kids too. I don't drink anymore because that history scares me. The rise in fascist and nationalist ideologies scares me too. If we forget history we are doomed to repeat it. Both at an individual and societal level.
- rawgabbit 2y agoMy grandfather also drank himself to death for similar reasons. What scares me is that as a society we forget too quickly the true cost and suffering caused by war.
- mywacaday 2y agoA study of people who were adopted as babies could be interesting, depending on circumstances the stress on the birth mother could be reflected in the child but the dynamics of the birth family after birth would no longer be in play. I am specifically thinking of Ireland where there are a significant number of people in their 40s up that were the result of pretty much forced adoption due to the societal stigma of getting pregnant out of wedlock which would have been very stressful as the mothers were sent to mother and baby homes once they began to show.
- OnlyMortal 2y agoI heard that, in the Netherlands after WW2, the descendants of people who starved were shorter in height even though they were born after the war. Admittedly this was from a Dr Karl podcast.
- myth_drannon 2y agoIt's in the article, and it's been overweight.
- shadowtree 2y ago[flagged]
- pessimizer 2y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_of_slaves_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture_of_slaves_in_the_Unite...
- StarterPro 2y agoThis feels dangerously close to eugenics
- heresie-dabord 2y agoThe real "uncomfortable truth" that the GP blithely glosses is the effect of multi-generational poverty. If a society has determined that some people are entirely expendable, then the misery of the latter over generations is easily dismissed as "biological destiny".
- doinkmun 2y ago[dead]
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- allemagne 2y agoI'm happy to hear that you agree that we must fearlessly follow the science no matter where it leads us. Unfortunately in this case, this news item deals with epigenetics that affects gene expression, not changes in actual genes. The same thing would happen to humans of every race and ethnicity, given the same conditions. It might be uncomfortable to confront things you'd rather take for granted, but as long as you're willing to accept the truth when facts don't align with your feelings then have no worries. You're on the right path.
- agumonkey 2y agoI saw a video about a study on Japanese villagers nearby seismic fault or volcanos. And IIRC the villagers facing the dangers directly had different tempers probably driven by the constant risks and traumas from past catastrophes, while the villagers further away and shielded by hills, were calmer.
- FartyMcFarter 2y agoThis doesn't require genetics or epigenetics to be the cause though. For example, there's also the possibility of stressed people passing their stress onto others through their actions.
- cheezeweezer 2y agoNot exactly the "first human evidence of a phenomenon". There was an article published in 2013 about the 1836 potato famine. Descendants of those who experienced the famine first hand, expressed altered genome due to the stress. https://gizmodo.com/how-an-1836-famine-altered-the-genes-of-children-born-d-1200001177 https://gizmodo.com/how-an-1836-famine-altered-the-genes-of-...
- jahewson 2y agoNot genome. Epigenome.
- odyssey7 2y ago> The idea that trauma and violence can have repercussions into future generations should help people be more empathetic, help policymakers pay more attention to the problem of violence Alas, a new target for lasting, inter-generational psychological assault.
- paulnpace 2y agoMeanwhile, in Gaza...
- myth_drannon 2y ago[flagged]
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- lutusp 2y ago"Passed down through their mothers, this genetic imprint offers the first human evidence of a phenomenon previously documented only in animals: The genetic transmission of stress across multiple generations." I wish reporters were required to research their claims. Apart from epigenetics, which influences offspring but confers no permanent genetic change, there is no inheritance of acquired traits. On this topic, for political reasons Joseph Stalin promoted Trofim Lysenko's incorrect views in this topic, which set Soviet genetics back decades. More here: "The destructive role of Trofim Lysenko in Russian Science" (https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6777473/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6777473/) Articles like this should at least explain how and why their claims differ from established genetic principles.
- dm319 2y agoLots of people here stating that this is an epigenetic change rather than a change in the genetic sequence, which I think is missing the point somewhat. Epigenetic changes are an important part of your genetic make-up. To give you an example, the only reason that your skin cells remain your skin cells when they divide, and your liver cells remain your liver cells when they divide, is due to the epigenetic make up. Their DNA is the same, but the cells are very different, and epigenetics pass that information along when the code is copied. In the same way, these stress-related epigenetic changes are being copied down and inherited by the generation two under. This is already known, I think it was first seen in the Swedish famine cohort. At that time it was not clear it was due to epigenetics, but there was a clear signal in the health of those descendants [1], published here in 2002. [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/5200859 https://www.nature.com/articles/5200859
- meew0 2y agoReminds me of Scott Alexander's “GATTACA II: EPI-GATTACA”: https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/06/19/the-gattaca-trilogy/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/06/19/the-gattaca-trilogy/
- _ink_ 2y agoI have Aphantasia. I always wondered whether the physical and emotional violence my mother experienced increased the probability for it. I guess I'll never know, but it's interesting to see that epigenetics seems to be in play.
- magwa101 2y ago[dead]
- mikeyinternews 2y agoDexter and his brother Brian are perfect examples of this
- dmitrygr 2y ago> The idea that trauma and violence can have repercussions into future generations should help people be more empathetic, help policymakers pay more attention to the problem of violence This sounds like it was custom written perfectly to support censorshit. The usual "oh no... hurt feelings" stuff amountOfDoubt++;
- SoftMachine 2y ago[flagged]
- Necrondancer 2y agoTransgenerational epigenetic inheritance is mostly bogus. This research is usually invoked as an alternative to the much more straight-forward, easily verifiable influences of normie genetics. Since these are not deemed socially desirable, this epigenetic pseudoscience gets millions in funding. See: https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/2005hereditarian-hypothesis.pdf https://www1.udel.edu/educ/gottfredson/reprints/2005heredita...
- imperialdrive 2y agoMind over matter. Don't forget to meditate, and try to keep the loop running in the background too.
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- aaroninsf 2y agoResearch area that would be extremely interesting: whether and how epigenetic changes of this type correlated with social-political behavior and values.
- MrMcCall 2y agoSo why won't people listen to me that compassion for all human beings is the only excellent choice for us, both personally and in our cultures/societies/groups? The side that takes pleasure in the misery of others does so because the negative effects can be -- just as this title states -- deleterious for generations. We must evolve ourselves to, instead, sow the seeds of compassionate concern for all human beings to rid ourselves of the damaging effects of abuse of every kind, between any two people or groups of people. Yes, accomplishing any progress in that direction is fundamentally difficult because it goes against our animal physiology and negative potential, not to mention the even more generations of institutional pack mentality that so permeates our cultures' seeking of power. We could choose peace and compassion, if we chose to, but such a bold endeavor takes utter commitment and real work, for each and every one of us. Compassion is always the solution to ALL our problems, because the lack of compassion is ALWAYS the fundamental cause of EACH and EVERY one. It is both that simple, and that difficult, but it is also rewarding beyond normal comprension, for it is the most real kind of magic in this multiverse. "Love, baby, love." --Louis Armstrong
- ch4s3 2y agoFor reference the underlying study is called “ Epigenetic signatures of intergenerational exposure to violence in three generations of Syrian refugees” https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-89818-z https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-025-89818-z
- beebaween 2y agoDo you know if there's also been similar research looking into the effects of victims of violence, specifically female rape victims? Having previously been married to a survivor of sexual violence in her teens, I hope similar work is being done to fully understand the gravity of these kinds of events on humans.
- Wistar 2y agoIn the mid-80s, I was dating someone who was studying genetics at Sac State. One day, I read an article that made the claim that a female dog that has been hit and injured by a car can later have puppies that are inherently afraid of cars. Although I didn't think about it with any rigor it seemed within the realm of possibility to me. I mentioned this to her and she *adamantly* refused to accept the possibility.
- dash2 2y agoI’ve published in genetics and been at conferences with epigenetics guys and honestly I came out with a low opinion of them. I saw a lot of poor work, p hacking with multiple indices, trawling etc. I just think common sense should make us suspicious of anything having deep heritable effects like this. There are obvious potential confounds here, it’s not at all plausible that exposure to violence is random. See also the excellent https://www.razibkhan.com/p/you-cant-take-it-with-you-straight https://www.razibkhan.com/p/you-cant-take-it-with-you-straig...
- keernan 2y ago>>“The idea that trauma and violence can have repercussions into future generations should help people be more empathetic, help policymakers pay more attention to the problem of violence” Violence impacts virtually every aspect of human existence. Consider for one moment what life would be like in an alien world in which life existed in the total absence of violence. No wars. No violent crime. No child abuse. No sexual abuse. No police. No prisons. No weapons. No militaries. Violence is a scourge. I have spent the past 20 years discussing the issue of violence with people in RL and online - and it is simply shocking how much males WANT violence. Enjoy violence. Consider it a part of their masculinity and that they would feel neutered in a world without violence. To me, that sense of pride in violence, is the scariest thing I have come across in my 72 year male life. And the saddest for what it portends for the future of our species.