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Dogs may have domesticated themselves because they liked snacks, model suggests
- matrix12 2y agoYour dog is a gmo.
- aurareturn 2y agoThe model showed that over 15,000 years, natural selection could potentially drive dog self-domestication. But for this to happen, two conditions had to be met: Wolves had to choose to stay near humans to eat food scraps, and they had to select mates with a similar temperament. Why would humans feed wolves scraps without them providing something of value in return? Wolves have to provide something to humans in order for humans to keep feeding them right? In this case, humans would want some wolves around them. Therefore, it seems very unlikely to be self domestication because humans would have a heavy sway in how dogs evolved.
- readyplayernull 2y agoYes, the theories in that article don't make a lot of sense. For example this about cats: > settling into a mutually-beneficial relationship in which they hunted and ate rodents in exchange for food. Cats mostly hunt birds, because rondents are smarter, faster, stronger and have weapons (teeth). Also humans and primates throw rocks and sticks at predators. Early dogs must have been caught as puppies, or their parents killed by humans and their flesh eaten. The whole model has been domesticated to portray a cartoony interaction.
- ajb 2y ago"Cats mostly hunt birds, because rondents are smarter, faster, stronger and have weapons (teeth)." Where did you get that from? I'm pretty sure it's not accurate, both from reading and personal experience. Cats don't tackle rats often, and they are at a low risk of being bitten by mice (the hunting technique for mice involves first stunning the mouse by whacking it as hard as possible, ideally using body weight). Mice are smaller than most birds. Cats do have instincts for rodents, birds and fish. But in most areas rodents are more available, so the cats don't get very good at hunting the other two.
- readyplayernull 2y agoMy cousins from the countryside have several cats, and there is plenty of mice and birds. Mostly every prey the cats bring home are birds. Birds are easier to track, nest in visible places, while mice hides better, they are good detectors by smell and sound. Maybe in the city birds are harder to reach. The more I think about the article the less it makes sense. Humans would have eaten all their preys' meat, and thrown the bones they didn't use to build tools and accesories into pits, would have burned the rest to avoid bringing predators. Proto-dogs would have been like pigs to them, they are still like such in Asia. It's just that their decendants are good alarms and defenders, and can be trained to help in hunting and other tasks.
- wiredfool 2y agoI've had outdoor cats -- at one point two brothers. One was a complete terror for birds. He'd go after them all, including hummingbirds. Left bits everywhere. Then we lost him due to something bigger and sharper. The other one couldn't be arsed to hunt anything, until we moved a couple miles into the country and the house had rodents (due to the previous owner feeding birds). Over the course of the first year, he got 25 and I got 2 with traps. Never saw any evidence of dead birds. So, it varies. By the cat.
- tssva 2y agoI own a horse farm and have several barn cats. They aren't there to keep the bird population down.
- ajb 2y agoThat reminds me of a story. The author Elizabeth Moon and her husband kept horses, and one year they decided to get oats for the winter instead of hay. They didn't realise that oats need to be stored differently, not just in a pile on the barn floor. They took one of their horses to the vet because he developed a persistent cough; the vet asked a few questions. When he heard how they were storing the oats, his eyes widened, and he leaned forward. "You need to get rid the oats. Now." Then he explained why... So as soon as they got back they started shoveling the contaminated pile of oats into bags to depose of it. And as they did so, first a few, then a stream of mice started running out of the pile of oats. Their hair was standing on end from disgust, but they had to keep shoveling. At the sound, the cats came from all the nearby farms, so that they were at the centre of a ring of cats; but by the end all the cats had eaten so many mice that they were stuffed; and could only lie there, and watch the mice go by.
- relistan 2y agoProviding them less desirable—to humans—-scraps would have likely prevented competition with them in hunting game. Why hunt living game if you can wait around and get scraps for free? So original intention of humans likely not domestication, but still leads that way if the wolves get what they want.
- aurareturn 2y agoThat doesn't make sense to me either. So humans give them food so they don't compete with humans in hunting. The wolves would get full from humans, don't have to hunt, and spend all their time reproducing, which will create even more competition for humans.
- relistan 2y agoThat’s not how reproductive cycles work.
- pinkmuffinere 2y agoThe details may be off, but the main point still stands right? More food = more wolves, no?
- Avicebron 2y agook, so Grug and team know they can take wolves (spears), wolves know they can eat and not be bothered by Grug and team by eating cast off bones/scraps because all of their relatives that went to steal food from Grug didn't make it, but the ones that ate the scraps and were chill with Grug and Grugette ended up making it until Grug Jr.^3 and by then had decided to be on the same team as Grug Jr.^3
- bluGill 2y agoHumans and wolves appear to have cooperated in their hunts. The two can do different things and so together have more success that either alone.
- SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago> Why would humans feed wolves scraps without them providing something of value in return? Human beings aren't all always that transactional. "Homo economicus" is joked about for good reasons. You can easily imagine situations where a) food is in a temporary surplus due to a successful hunt, so there is little downside to wasting some and b) a sentimental child has access to it.
- metalman 2y agoclose, but of course far more complex, Wolves are savy negotiators, highly social, and often (not always) fun loving, the variations in personality amongst them is large.Wolves team up with Ravens, another species with complex behaviors, ravens work as airial spoters, and wolves take out the targeted prey, with both sharing the kill, in exceptionaly close quarters, it's easy to see that those roles could change, with humans around, and there is a limited window to prepare and consume, and drag off a large kill, before it atracts an apex preditor, or just a huge flock of hungry birds, that can decimate an untended carcas in miniuts.So teaming up, rather than dependency, is the most likely begining. Archiological work on wolf dens, show that choice sites in the Canadian High Arctic, have been in continious use for 10000 years, by Canadian Wolves showing that a core group, will maintain a teritory, indefinitly.....even with humans and other large dangerous animals around... Peoples view of dogs, is often based on experience with what are breeds that are strictly house pets and have been inbred to the point of bieng helpless morons or neurotic edgy wierdos, but that one central behavior, of guarding what and where they are instructed to, remains.
- gus_massa 2y ago> Wolves team up with Ravens I had to search it. For example https://www.yellowstone.org/naturalist-notes-wolves-and-ravens/ https://www.yellowstone.org/naturalist-notes-wolves-and-rave...
- thiago_fm 2y agoThere are plenty of humans that got a 100% wolf and managed to keep them around, even in modern times. In the past, people were always looking for ways to automate hunting, just like we do with technology, as this was the hardest thing. And if you ever hunted, imagine having a wolf around when you hunt, it's nuts. They are so powerful and can so easily find prey, they have sick instincts too, much better than humans. Pair them together and you can understand why that combination works so well. Our ancestors also gave up lots of surviviability skills to become homo sapiens together with our beloved doges.
- jmull 2y ago> Why would humans feed wolves... It's the same reasons they feed dogs.
- stevenjgarner 2y agoJust to expand on that, humans keep dogs not just as pets but as guard animals. It could be imagined that early humans feeding wolves to keep them around might also present a deterrent to aggressors.
- thaawyy33432434 2y agoDogs also hunt rodents, they can lead you a dead deer, find a rabbit hole. Dogs chew on skins, bones and eat other parts that humans don't like. Dogs could be source of calories as well....
- dboreham 2y agoThey also look sooo cute.
- nyrikki 2y agoEver visit any national park or even city park where people are feeding ducks, squirrels, birds etc??? What 'value' outside of entertainment does that provide to the humans?
- geodel 2y agoBesides that, in wolves' case it would be the meat that would rot or invite other predators. Better those standing by wolves finish of the scraps.
- AnotherGoodName 2y agoOn this point I’m convinced that bears are well on the way to domestication. National parks have a name for the ones starting to show domesticated behaviours - ‘problem bears’. Bears that go out of their way to interact with humans. I feel that’s a case study for domestication right there.
- ravetcofx 2y agoRaccoons too. There's some in our neighborhood who hold out their hands to beg
- rich_sasha 2y agoIME bears are sadly quite thick. They will get used to humans but also easily feel threatened by them. So first they won't keep their distance, but then may well act aggressive / threatened. They'd need to somehow lose the aggression to continue on the road to pethood. Based on many reports of brown bear behaviour in the Carpathian mountains and an N=1 natural experiment.
- nyrikki 2y agoBlack Bears 'aggression' is almost exclusively what is called bluster. It is a stress/fear response. But they aren't social hunters so the ability to lose that fear response isn't something that was selected for. Similar to racoons and even bald eagles, which are like pistons in Alaskan fishing towns, with a wider fear boundary radius. Urban coyotes, which are typically solitary, mating pair or sibling group limited are similar, being there but hiding in the shadows in fear typically. If you have ever had the misfortune of knowing someone with a wolf hybrid, that fear resulting in unpredictable behavior is fairly obvious. Brown bears have more subtle stress indicators, if you watch the tragic videos recorded by Timothy Treadwell, and have experience with brown bear stress indicators it is quite obvious. Obviously most animals are opportunistic, with even animals like horses being willing to eat voles or chicks that enter the pasture, and Treadwell stayed past the bountiful times when brown bears suppress their fear to co-feed with other bears which changed the calculus and ended poorly for him and his girlfriend. The species that have been domesticated almost universally are cooperative either for protection or for finding food. IMHO, the development of the ability to read human emotions is what allowed for the domestic dog. My first job in highschool was as the kennel boy at a rural veterinary clinic. Dealing with injured animals safety was almost always about controlling my own lack of stress indicators and trying to communicate intent while observing for stress indicators in the animal. No matter if it was an injured dog or horse etc... But you often had to remove them from their owners because dogs, being social are great at picking up clues from their owners. If an owner was concerned their dog would bite, it would almost always do so. Yet if you removed that cue, it is amazing how much less likely it was . If you observe bears interaction with other bears it is typically filled with stress indicators like jaw clacking etc... They never comfortable with any bear that isn't a mother or sibling. So I doubt that there is a real reliable path to pet hood for them, just as there isn't, unfortunately, for most wolf hybrids. The aggression (really almost always harmless bluster) is simply a secondary emotional response to the primary fear and anxiety. They aren't 'thick' they just aren't built the same way.
- bityard 2y agoHumans have always like having pets and frequently interacted with all kinds of nature before the industrial revolution, which is an extremely recent event in human history. Although it turns out domesticated dogs have a wide number of uses _now_, early humans had no idea that would be the case, they probably just liked feeding the wolves. Edit: there is also speculation that "feeding" wasn't entirely deliberate, that wolves started eating scraps from the garbage piles close to early human settlements and the ones that were friendly to humans (likely children especially) evolved closer and closer into dogs.
- darth_avocado 2y agoYeah I wouldn’t imagine that “feeding” was anything but wild animals realizing that human encampments have food and therefore need to follow them around or be in their proximity. The animals that would present themselves with aggression, would potentially be killed by the humans and the ones who would keep a more tame approach would be tolerated by humans. Over centuries, the tame behavior turned into domestication.
- AngryData 2y agoWell without wolves around it would leave more room for other, potentially much more dangerous, predators. And big cats once roamed most the entire world and are definitely more dangerous to humans than wolves.
- dboreham 2y agoWhere I live we still have the megafauna and can confirm that pretty much none of them will mess with large dogs.
- Ekaros 2y agoI would also guess that in some early stages of domesticating other animals feeding the animals that might prey on those animals could effectively lessen the predation.
- dgfitz 2y agoI breezed through the responses to this thread, and I believe the quote may be misinterpreted. > Wolves had to choose to stay near humans to eat food scraps... I don't read that humans fed the wolves scraps, just that wolves ate scraps, probably discarded by humans. Then one day maybe a bold doggo decides to hang out closer, and bam, a shitty disney movie is born. ;D
- worik 2y ago> Why would humans feed wolves scraps Human feces is very attractive to a dog. So perhaps not deliberate?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- stonemetal12 2y agoIt doesn't say the humans had to feed the wolves. Bones, parts that humans don't eat, etc. is scraps near humans that wolves might want.
- code_for_monkey 2y agohumans have a natural drive to do this, not everything is some quid pro quo. How could you see a wolf puppy and not light up? Humans think almost every animal is cute in its own way, its very in our nature.
- mystified5016 2y agoOr do we only think wolf puppies are cute because we co-evolved with dogs?
- autoexec 2y agoWe haven't really co-evolved with pygmy hippos, qokka, or chevrotain, but folks think they're cute too. Cute is cute regardless of familiarity
- mystified5016 2y agoEasy, pure evolution. Human groups that intentionally or unintentionally fed surrounding wolves are at an advantage. The presense of wolves near the humans would drive off more aggressive predators, which also helps up the local prey populations. Human groups that did not feed or intentionally drove off wolves are at a disadvantage and more likely to be eaten during the night, or be out-competed for food. Repeat for a million years or until your wolf grows eyebrows. Additionally, wolves share their hunt with their pack. It's possible that some early groups were fed at least partially by the wolves hunting for them. If that dynamic ever got established, that group would be at a tremendous advantage.
- lazyeye 2y agoThe silver fox domestication experiment that ran for 60 years https://evolution-outreach.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12052-018-0090-x https://evolution-outreach.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.118...
- dlivingston 2y agoGreat article. The addendum on Soviet "scientist" Trofim Lysenko at the end was almost more interesting than the fox study itself!
- mrguyorama 2y ago>But work in Mendelian genetics was essentially illegal at the time in the Soviet Union, because of a pseudo-scientific charlatan by the name of Trofim Lysenko (Joravsky 1979; Soyfer 1994). >In the mid-1920s, the Communist Party leadership, in an attempt to glorify the average citizen, began to promote uneducated men from the proletariat into the scientific community. You cannot fix science through ideology, especially when that ideology is actually just loyalty, and is mostly being used as an excuse to get rid of people who keep telling you that you are wrong. But don't worry, that could never happen here.
- Pokepokalypse 2y agoIn my study, (n=2), I can attest, indeed, that both of my dogs will willingly give up roaming outside in the wild for snacks, scritches, and belly-rubs.
- thiago_fm 2y agoMy current dog wouldn't give up. It really depends on the breed. Some ancient races still have those very old instincts of hunting and being independent, even doing some weird scream when given a bone or a having found a potential "hunt". (that's how people used to hunt!) Youtube shiba scream :-) All my previous dogs (>5) would always prefer the snack though.
- heraldgeezer 2y ago"Some ancient races" Like terriers, Jack russel etc. lol. They will just go. They will ignore you. Yes we tried having meatballs. They don't care. Hunt hunt hunt. (Male, non snipped)
- redeux 2y agoI can confirm. My Rat Terrier will absolutely not respond if she gets out. Best I can do is throw tennis balls towards the house so she runs in that general direction, assuming that’s the most interesting thing she’s found to hunt yet.
- jon_richards 2y agoIs a bred in behavior to hunt vermin domestication or lack of domestication?
- roguecoder 2y agoAbsolutely a form of domestication, just in the way short wheat and buff chickens are instead of the way floppy-eared friends are. "Ignore everything else to single-mindedly go after prey" is, in the wild, a great way to get eaten by slightly larger predators.
- thoroughburro 2y agoWheat may have domesticated us because we like bread.
- hammock 2y agoWheat domesticated us because agriculture put the politics and power into the hands of the landowners (whoever is big enough warlord to control arable territory)
- starspangled 2y agoNo that's just basic control and domination of resources that exised eons before humans did. Lots of animals have and guard their "territory" and don't farm. Plenty of human tribes did the same before they had developed agriculture.
- hammock 2y agoThat is true, but you could always move to another region and there would still be some level of fish & game. a) the ability to have grain stores, etc thru the winter; and b) the long food cycle of plant in spring, harvest in fall; really put everything on steroids in terms of what "territory" was important (the grain stores, the planted land) and what territory was less important You can see this in the development of forts, castles, etc later on where the "keep" was the most protected thing, and held the grain store for an entire village
- wil421 2y agoPlants evolved animals to spread seeds.
- cantrecallmypwd 2y agos/bread/beer/
- Molitor5901 2y agoI, too, was domesticated because I like snacks. :)
- tombert 2y agoMe as well. I have a theory that that's why every tech startup always has a bunch of snacks in the kitchen.
- roguecoder 2y agoOne of the hypotheses for how civilization emerged is that humans domesticated each other. Every time I take a neighbor some cookies I think of it as me doing my part for human evolution.
- cedws 2y agoThis is the most xkcd thing I've ever read outside of xkcd.
- roguecoder 2y agoBoston nerds gonna Boston nerd
- Molitor5901 2y agoI can see that. Maybe in ancient societies they found they could accomplish sustainability in less movement. By that I mean.. they have a place where they live and a place where they source food, water, etc. Bringing those together means less travel and more concentration. Over time.. domestication. Maybe?
- alexjplant 2y agoA question I've often heard asked with regard to domestic pets is whether they're "food motivated". I've never met a dog or cat that wasn't... is there some rando in Arkansas that has a Dachshund that enjoys true crime documentaries and experimental mathematics more than treats? Or is my impression that fuzzy quadrapeds with walnut-sized brains are universally food-motivated a correct one?
- nosioptar 2y agoI've got a cat that doesn't have any interest in treats or table scraps. She spent most of yesterday watching Breaking Bad. My other cats are all at least normally motivated by food.
- silverlake 2y agoMy first dog was not food motivated.
- natbennett 2y ago“Food-motivated” in dogs means something more like “can be induced to listen to commands from a human in exchange for food.” Some dogs are only interested in their own plans. Others are only interested in really good food, or are much more interested in some other reward, like having a ball thrown. My dog for instance is not particularly food motivated. He believes strongly that there is “food” and “better food” and will hold off until he’s really hungry to eat something that’s just food. But he’s very motivated by attention. He will do tricks for treats he doesn’t like and then drop the treat on the floor once you give it to him.
- dmix 2y agoMy recall training improved dramatically when I stopped only using treats as he got wise to that game, he would only do that consistently at home or solo. When I started using the come command with a game like tug of war or running away slightly then throwing a ball, he associated it with fun/activity and comes more often now.
- spike021 2y ago
- enoeht 2y agoWhat does the Model say about parasites, they like to snack too (:
- WarOnPrivacy 2y agoI will apologize to dogs in advance for any insensitivity I might show here. My relationship with dogs is complicated. Once I read that their eyes rounded in response to their long adaptation to humans, I started feeling a little remorseful. Their Family is fundamentally altered and some of their natural self has been remolded to serve as our adjunct. I know we didn't set out to do that but I regret it some, nonetheless. In regard to all pets, I've come to feel a debt for sacrificing their independence. I feel an obligation to understand them, to accept them as what they are and to treat them in a way that respects that being. Hopefully they'll receive some fulfillment they otherwise wouldn't have. But with dogs, that obligation feels uniquely expansive. I don't really know how to do it justice.
- GenerocUsername 2y agoYou must deep down actually hate yourself or all of humanity to feel such remorse for the impact we have had on nature/dogs. Doesn't sound healthy
- chneu 2y agoWow what a weird comment to make. Having compassion for another living, feeling, emotional creature means they must hate themselves? Oof what a lame take.
- mrguyorama 2y ago>Having compassion for another living, feeling, emotional creature means they must hate themselves? Why is "I regret that we domesticated dogs" "compassion"? It's just the naturalistic fallacy. Wolves still exist. It's just that some of their babies hung out with us and over ten thousand years some of those babies hung out with us even more and we both changed to accommodate our relationship. Why was it wrong to build legitimate companionship with other creatures? Why is it morally wrong to adapt over extremely long time periods?
- WarOnPrivacy 2y ago
- andrewstuart 2y agoAlso they like to be told they are good doggies.
- jsbisviewtiful 2y agoHasn't this been determined for quite some time? "Wolves found out they could get easy food and some shelter by working with humans" is a determination I've been seeing since at least the 00's, maybe even 90's.
- baron816 2y agoPeckish pups
- dmix 2y agoThere was also a study that showed dogs are healthiest when they eat a single meal a day (as opposed to the usual twice a day most people do). https://www.newsweek.com/dog-feed-once-day-cognitive-health-1649704 https://www.newsweek.com/dog-feed-once-day-cognitive-health-... Behaviour isn't always aligned with biological needs though.
- justinzollars 2y agoMy dog agrees.
- jjtheblunt 2y agoslightly off topic: does anyone have the link to genetic arguments dogs descend from wolves, rather than dogs and wolves being both descended from a common proto-canine? i should be able to find such, the article alludes to such as a foregone conclusion, but no luck.
- SJC_Hacker 2y agoWell they both share a common ancestor, the question is how "wolf-like" was that common ancestor. Pretty sure most biologists believes wolves haven't change much since dogs were domesticated.
- hexator 2y agoI love it when statistical modelling is used for research like this. I think we're underestimating the impact research simulations will have on science, especially when they get cheaper and easier to build. Exciting stuff!
- serviceberry 2y agoI find the self-domestication theory quite plausible for cats, but I'm having a hard time accepting it for wolves. Why would human tribes tolerate wolves in close proximity? Small cats are largely harmless and get rid of pests. Wolves compete for the same food sources, kill children, and are otherwise a nuisance. Granted, selective breeding of captive animals also doesn't jibe with what we know about the Stone Age, but we don't know all that much.
- NewJazz 2y agoHunting parties may have cooperated with wolves to route or take down prey. Humans have smarts and persistence, but they aren't sprinters. A wolf can run 30-40 mph.
- ceejayoz 2y ago> Why would human tribes tolerate wolves in close proximity? You don't start with the adults. You kill the adults and raise the pups. Even today, there are wolf sanctuaries with wild wolves who've become quite friendly and acclimated to their carers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gePE-_lrJUU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gePE-_lrJUU
- serviceberry 2y agoRight, but the argument here isn't that humans domesticated wolves, but that wolves self-domesticated themselves (i.e., humans tolerated adult wolves in close proximity).
- ceejayoz 2y agoThat’s the last bit of my comment. People get adopted by wolf packs at times. Both approaches probably worked for different groups.
- 542354234235 2y ago>You kill the adults and raise the pups. You are talking about the second domestication period, not the first. The first domestication period was not intentional by humans. It was that some wolve packs scavenged scraps from around human settlements, and so were in slightly closer contact. Over generations, the humans and wolves became slightly more comfortable with each other and humans started seeing some benefits from the proximity (early warning system, additional deterrent against other predators, etc.). This likely reinforced the developing relationship and prompted some humans to occasionally actively feed scraps/leftovers to the least skittish wolves, which again over generations, led to some wolves being close to what we would call “friendly” towards humans.
- sporc 2y agoThe title reads like a factoid produced by an LLM.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- INTPenis 2y agoAs a dog lover I believe that sure they might have first learned to trust us thanks to food, but I believe they stayed and became our best friends thanks to scritches. Those five fingers work magic.
- mannyv 2y agoThey can't scratch their own armpits. And they can't scratch each other.
- greenchair 2y agowhy so many fake "science" articles posted on HN lately?
- mannyv 2y agoIt could be the other way around, where dogs that were domesticated were the ones that responded to humans' love of feeding them. Humans love feeding animals. It's a unique behavior in the animal kingdom. And the first step to domesticating anything is feeding them.
- cbnotfromthere 2y ago[dead]
- jimmytucson 2y agoReminds me of the scene in Blood Meridian where they find a dog in an abandoned Apache camp and Brown says, “you won’t man that thing,” and Captain Glanton says, “I can man anything that eats.”
- ytch 2y agohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf9fjF26-ZU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf9fjF26-ZU In Hoh Xil, China. a wild wolf started begging for food from humans. It now approaches vehicles for food, and also shows some dog-like habits.
- iancmceachern 2y agoI can tell you for a fact that our dogs love snacks. Especially the one, he's asking me for one right now.
- 11235813213455 2y agoThey aren't many examples of humans making "friend" with other animals without the help of food
- myheartisinohio 2y agoCoincidentally this is also how I have a partner.
- scinadier 2y agoThe same could be said about humans.