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This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost. I do this all the time when I’m dealing with people who don’t

This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost. I do this all the time when I’m dealing with people who don’t answer their email, or who tend to stall and delay approvals, or people who are just very busy. I’ll Email and describe the problem and then say the magic phrase “If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not asking for approval and then helplessly waiting and pinging. I’m putting them on notice. XYZ is going to happen unless you get off your butt and stop me. Occasionally someone will come back weeks later, angry that I did XYZ without telling them, and I always have a paper trail showing that they were the ones who dropped the ball.

sieabahlpark 2y ago
Works great until you break the law by accident if you're in a regulated industry. Sometimes it isn't as easy to do that.
- gukov 2y ago
  Yeah, opting in by default like that can backfire when something gets done and the boss gets in trouble.
kmoser 2y ago
These days I almost take it for granted that somebody isn't going to read my email, or won't read it thoroughly, or will read it but will fail to acknowledge it. One can use this to their advantage if they want to skirt a hard "no" but as you said, it may backfire. And the "boss" may have a point: relying on them to read, understand, and acknowledge your email, especially when it's important, is somewhat disingenuous. At the very least one has an obligation to confirm that the recipient actually read and understood what was sent, before taking the default action.
- tempestn 2y ago
  One thing I've eventually managed to learn after failing at it many, many times is that in the vast majority of cases an email can only say one thing; if you try to ask multiple questions, or give multiple pieces of information, best case people will actually read one of them. Worst case it'll overwhelm and they'll ignore the whole thing. It's obviously different if you know the recipient and that they're able to handle more, but my default assumption is that people will read the first 1-3 sentences of an email, so I do my best to keep it to that, and if I have more to say I'll make a note to myself for once they reply.
  - rvba 2y ago
    All those complicated recruitment processes and companies cannot hire peoppe who know how to read...
    - tempestn 2y ago
      I think it's more a matter of people being overworked, so they just skim and answer the first thing that pops out. Or in some cases it may even be strategic, like in a negotiation, ignoring the parts that aren't beneficial to answer, while still responding.
    - mlboss 2y ago
      Its information overload. Everybody is super busy with 10,000 things to care of. My approach to repeat again and again. No hard feelings.
  - pixl97 2y ago
    >n after failing at it many, many times is that in the vast majority of cases an email can only say one thing; This sounds much. Quite often I have to send people complicated lists of instructions to complete a task. Around half the time the remote party only does the first step. With this type of user I've started removing the top entry on the list and sending the first email. Around the 4th time I do this the user tends to catch on and completes the original list of instructions solving the problem at hand.
hippari2 2y ago
It's also good in that it force a record that someone is blocking / vetoing your progress.
Buttons840 2y ago
How do you actually word this? "We plan to defragment the thingamajig on March 1st. We're reaching out to those who might have an interest in case this might cause problems. Please let us know if you have concerns about the defragment. If we don't hear from you by March 1st, the thingamajig will be defragged." Something like this?
- kevinlou 2y ago
  That seems like a much more diplomatic (and work-appropriate) way of framing it rather than just saying "hey, if I don't hear from you by x date i'm gonna do something"
- danmaz74 2y ago
  Hey, we need to do XYZ by April 1st. Let me know if you think that's a problem.
  - dylan604 2y ago
    That’s still ambiguous. There’s no default action listed if no response is given. Listing the default action is your CYA that a non response is approval of the default
    - fmbb 2y ago
      Hey, we will do XYZ by April 1st. Let me know if you think that's a problem.
    - ineedasername 2y ago
      Well, the CYA in less healthy workplaces could be to leave things vague, if the person doesn’t respond then do what you want when the time comes, and if anything goes wrong you can pin it on the person who ghosted you on a response. Bonus points if you send that first email and immediately seek an in person response. The other person will then figure an email response is unnecessary, thus guaranteeing your ability to play things however you want. After you’ve been on the wrong side of this dynamic you learn to always confirm things in writing. And to wait for the other person to go to the bathroom and unplug their desk phone so it looks like they’re ignoring phone calls. At the same time, you use your personal vpn to try a few dozen failed logins to their email from 2 or 3 other continents, then drop a hint to their boss alluding to a vague but urgent problem in their domain so the boss will want to get in touch with them immediately.
kortilla 2y ago
This sounds a bit like a fantasy or the rules you’re breaking are completely irrelevant. “I’m going to do X in 5 days if you don’t respond” gives you absolutely no recourse if you do something that can result in reprimand. About the only place where this works is violating some internal design decisions that are irrelevant to the business.
- gr3ml1n 2y ago
  Well, definitely don't phrase it exactly like that. Most decisions that would be made in the context where this is a useful technique are irrelevant and/or obvious. They should be made by someone lower down the chain, but organizational dysfunction requires tricks like this to get anything done.
- fendy3002 2y ago
  this is a silver bullet for something that needs to be done on a specific timeframe, otherwise it'll be bad. Since the "Boss x do not give approval for it" won't cut in as a reason, and boss x needs to know this before you're doing it. Of course criticality matters. The more critical it is, the more required for you to do a more personal message with said boss, like slack, dms, up to meeting face to face for approval.
  - donalhunt 2y ago
    This is an important insight. While the "bias towards action" approach works for smaller things, larger efforts may require change management protocols that capture explicit approvals. In regulated industries, you may have no choice but to capture approvals in some official manner (with ink sometimes).
    - fendy3002 2y ago
      Of course condition and situation matters, as you've said in regulated industries. Be selfish, if you taking action will net you a worse outcome for you, better wait for approval.
- 2y ago
exodust 2y ago
> "Occasionally someone will come back weeks later, angry that I did XYZ without telling them..." Something fishy about this comment. Apparently you "do this all the time", spelling out the magic phrase you use like a template. Are you sure this is your anecdote and not a projection of how you'd like to be operating at work, as per the main article? I'm trying to imagine the scene where you "show the paper trail" to achieve victory over your angry colleagues! That's when my bullshit detector is all up in the red zone.
- toxik 2y ago
  Objection! You don’t have Ace Attorney style court hearings at work where you can ”show the paper trail” as evidence?
- dqv 2y ago
  > I'm trying to imagine the scene where you "show the paper trail" to achieve victory over your angry colleagues! That's when my bullshit detector is all up in the red zone. The scene is someone sitting at a computer replying to a chiding email with a blurb about having previously sent a notice and said notice attached. It's not really that theatrical or hard to imagine.
- pastage 2y ago
  One of the good things with process frameworks like ITIL is the way to keep track of who needs to know what. You basically are required to inform everyone if no one protest to you or some manager you can do whatever. It is alot better when you have someone who keeps track of these changes and says no if needed. As always a drama free work environment makes this easier.
DeathArrow 2y ago
To whom it may concern, I am planning to leave the company in 20 business days unless I get a substantial raise.
- aiiizzz 2y ago
  That's the implicit message in a 14 day notice
motorest 2y ago
> “If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not asking for approval and then helplessly waiting and pinging. I feel this tone is needlessly confrontational. You can very well state "II'm going to do XYZ because of [REASONS]. I'm going to do XYZ on [DAY N]. If anyone objects or has any reservations, please reach out to me." This approach also forces you to present a sound justification beforehand. You might not be aware, but there is always some likelihood what you're hoping to do is a mistake or you're missing out on some key constraints. When you reach out to anyone for feedback, you're hoping to get input to avoid mistakes. Also, this cargo cult behavior of citing Amazon's leadership principles as if they were a solution to problems is mind-boggling. For example, the reason why "bias for action" works at Amazon is survivorship bias: those who unilaterally take action which results in a failure will ultimately be scapegoated and fired. You won't see those guys posting blog entries on the virtues of bias for action.
- Xmd5a 2y ago
  What about: - If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important. >this cargo cult behavior of citing Amazon's leadership principles Technical principles too: microservices. Firm size follow a Zipf distribution, thus in most case the decision was made it wasn't necessary and actually slowed down development.
  - genewitch 2y ago
    That's also passive-aggrsssive. "I have scheduled beginning $X on $Date. Documentation:... Please remit any feedback, please and thank you" And in the second example, unrelated to the first scenario: "I had planned to begin $X on $Date, but priorities have shifted and $X is being tabled for now. Documentation:... Please remote any feedback, please and thank you." Don't lie or whatever, or do. I don't, but none of this feels manipulative, you're just managing your time and workload. I may have missed some nuance.
    - close04 2y ago
      No matter how it’s formulated it looks exactly like the “opt-out” everyone on HN hates when it’s done to them. It’s effective so it’s great when it works for you not against you.
rzzzt 2y ago
So, an ultimatum?
whazor 2y ago
For teams where there is more document scrutiny and more involved team members, the key is to have two or three proposals and make a really strong case for your recommendation. And don’t even start a big review before having a recommendation. If you are stuck, I would suggest talking one on one with team members to get further. Also, try to remove all information that is not needed for the decision process to the appendix (or just fully remove it). Your recommendation will be the approach that you will continue doing if there is no one disagreeing.
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
I wish I could do this with merge requests but unfortunately we'll have to find some other way.
magic_hamster 2y ago
This sounds like it could result in a chaotic culture where everyone does whatever they want unless actively stopped. For a busy tech lead or staff engineer this sounds like a total nightmare. If you're already asking someone about your plan, there's probably a reason for that and maybe there are limitations or dependencies you're not aware of.
- Salgat 2y ago
  You generally reserve this tactic for people who act as blockers for everything, or for people who aren't critical to the project/action but still need to be notified.
- pixl97 2y ago
  The problem with busy tech whatevers is they will quite often not reply nor give a reasonable timeliness on which something can be done. This method forces them to lay out the timeline they can adhere to, and it works as a CYA as it shows you/your group is ready to act and is being blocked by others. It's up to upper management at that point to deconflict blockers.
Xenoamorphous 2y ago
> This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost. Tangential but I work at a moderatly big company (no idea how many employees) but the tech department where I work is like 50 people, so rather small; and that’s what I consider “the company”. I’m so busy I’m really close to burning out. And except for a couple of slackers, everyone is really busy too. So I’m not sure the size of the company correlates a lot with how busy people are.
thevarmint 2y ago
In the military, it gets abbreviated “UNODIR” meaning “Unless otherwise directed”.
- dctoedt 2y ago
  Glad I searched for UNODIR before making this comment! And that'd be a useful code to include in the subject line of the email, e.g.: To: Boss From: Me Subj: UNODIR by [DATE], upgrading the production database
friendzis 2y ago
Yes, in big companies you can get away with a lot of weird shit, but it takes two to tango. If your XYZ depends on someone such an email is a surefire way to get them popping their corns when they will put your request for help into backlog with an estimated slot for a timebox in... 2027.

sieabahlpark 2y ago

Works great until you break the law by accident if you're in a regulated industry. Sometimes it isn't as easy to do that.

gukov 2y ago
Yeah, opting in by default like that can backfire when something gets done and the boss gets in trouble.

kmoser 2y ago

These days I almost take it for granted that somebody isn't going to read my email, or won't read it thoroughly, or will read it but will fail to acknowledge it. One can use this to their advantage if they want to skirt a hard "no" but as you said, it may backfire. And the "boss" may have a point: relying on them to read, understand, and acknowledge your email, especially when it's important, is somewhat disingenuous. At the very least one has an obligation to confirm that the recipient actually read and understood what was sent, before taking the default action.

tempestn 2y ago
One thing I've eventually managed to learn after failing at it many, many times is that in the vast majority of cases an email can only say one thing; if you try to ask multiple questions, or give multiple pieces of information, best case people will actually read one of them. Worst case it'll overwhelm and they'll ignore the whole thing. It's obviously different if you know the recipient and that they're able to handle more, but my default assumption is that people will read the first 1-3 sentences of an email, so I do my best to keep it to that, and if I have more to say I'll make a note to myself for once they reply.
- rvba 2y ago
  All those complicated recruitment processes and companies cannot hire peoppe who know how to read...
  - tempestn 2y ago
    I think it's more a matter of people being overworked, so they just skim and answer the first thing that pops out. Or in some cases it may even be strategic, like in a negotiation, ignoring the parts that aren't beneficial to answer, while still responding.
  - mlboss 2y ago
    Its information overload. Everybody is super busy with 10,000 things to care of. My approach to repeat again and again. No hard feelings.
- pixl97 2y ago
  >n after failing at it many, many times is that in the vast majority of cases an email can only say one thing; This sounds much. Quite often I have to send people complicated lists of instructions to complete a task. Around half the time the remote party only does the first step. With this type of user I've started removing the top entry on the list and sending the first email. Around the 4th time I do this the user tends to catch on and completes the original list of instructions solving the problem at hand.

hippari2 2y ago

It's also good in that it force a record that someone is blocking / vetoing your progress.

Buttons840 2y ago

How do you actually word this? "We plan to defragment the thingamajig on March 1st. We're reaching out to those who might have an interest in case this might cause problems. Please let us know if you have concerns about the defragment. If we don't hear from you by March 1st, the thingamajig will be defragged." Something like this?

kevinlou 2y ago
That seems like a much more diplomatic (and work-appropriate) way of framing it rather than just saying "hey, if I don't hear from you by x date i'm gonna do something"
danmaz74 2y ago
Hey, we need to do XYZ by April 1st. Let me know if you think that's a problem.
- dylan604 2y ago
  That’s still ambiguous. There’s no default action listed if no response is given. Listing the default action is your CYA that a non response is approval of the default
  - fmbb 2y ago
    Hey, we will do XYZ by April 1st. Let me know if you think that's a problem.
  - ineedasername 2y ago
    Well, the CYA in less healthy workplaces could be to leave things vague, if the person doesn’t respond then do what you want when the time comes, and if anything goes wrong you can pin it on the person who ghosted you on a response. Bonus points if you send that first email and immediately seek an in person response. The other person will then figure an email response is unnecessary, thus guaranteeing your ability to play things however you want. After you’ve been on the wrong side of this dynamic you learn to always confirm things in writing. And to wait for the other person to go to the bathroom and unplug their desk phone so it looks like they’re ignoring phone calls. At the same time, you use your personal vpn to try a few dozen failed logins to their email from 2 or 3 other continents, then drop a hint to their boss alluding to a vague but urgent problem in their domain so the boss will want to get in touch with them immediately.

kortilla 2y ago

This sounds a bit like a fantasy or the rules you’re breaking are completely irrelevant. “I’m going to do X in 5 days if you don’t respond” gives you absolutely no recourse if you do something that can result in reprimand. About the only place where this works is violating some internal design decisions that are irrelevant to the business.

gr3ml1n 2y ago
Well, definitely don't phrase it exactly like that. Most decisions that would be made in the context where this is a useful technique are irrelevant and/or obvious. They should be made by someone lower down the chain, but organizational dysfunction requires tricks like this to get anything done.
fendy3002 2y ago
this is a silver bullet for something that needs to be done on a specific timeframe, otherwise it'll be bad. Since the "Boss x do not give approval for it" won't cut in as a reason, and boss x needs to know this before you're doing it. Of course criticality matters. The more critical it is, the more required for you to do a more personal message with said boss, like slack, dms, up to meeting face to face for approval.
- donalhunt 2y ago
  This is an important insight. While the "bias towards action" approach works for smaller things, larger efforts may require change management protocols that capture explicit approvals. In regulated industries, you may have no choice but to capture approvals in some official manner (with ink sometimes).
  - fendy3002 2y ago
    Of course condition and situation matters, as you've said in regulated industries. Be selfish, if you taking action will net you a worse outcome for you, better wait for approval.
2y ago

exodust 2y ago

> "Occasionally someone will come back weeks later, angry that I did XYZ without telling them..." Something fishy about this comment. Apparently you "do this all the time", spelling out the magic phrase you use like a template. Are you sure this is your anecdote and not a projection of how you'd like to be operating at work, as per the main article? I'm trying to imagine the scene where you "show the paper trail" to achieve victory over your angry colleagues! That's when my bullshit detector is all up in the red zone.

toxik 2y ago
Objection! You don’t have Ace Attorney style court hearings at work where you can ”show the paper trail” as evidence?
dqv 2y ago
> I'm trying to imagine the scene where you "show the paper trail" to achieve victory over your angry colleagues! That's when my bullshit detector is all up in the red zone. The scene is someone sitting at a computer replying to a chiding email with a blurb about having previously sent a notice and said notice attached. It's not really that theatrical or hard to imagine.
pastage 2y ago
One of the good things with process frameworks like ITIL is the way to keep track of who needs to know what. You basically are required to inform everyone if no one protest to you or some manager you can do whatever. It is alot better when you have someone who keeps track of these changes and says no if needed. As always a drama free work environment makes this easier.

DeathArrow 2y ago

To whom it may concern, I am planning to leave the company in 20 business days unless I get a substantial raise.

aiiizzz 2y ago
That's the implicit message in a 14 day notice

motorest 2y ago

> “If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not asking for approval and then helplessly waiting and pinging. I feel this tone is needlessly confrontational. You can very well state "II'm going to do XYZ because of [REASONS]. I'm going to do XYZ on [DAY N]. If anyone objects or has any reservations, please reach out to me." This approach also forces you to present a sound justification beforehand. You might not be aware, but there is always some likelihood what you're hoping to do is a mistake or you're missing out on some key constraints. When you reach out to anyone for feedback, you're hoping to get input to avoid mistakes. Also, this cargo cult behavior of citing Amazon's leadership principles as if they were a solution to problems is mind-boggling. For example, the reason why "bias for action" works at Amazon is survivorship bias: those who unilaterally take action which results in a failure will ultimately be scapegoated and fired. You won't see those guys posting blog entries on the virtues of bias for action.

Xmd5a 2y ago
What about: - If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important. >this cargo cult behavior of citing Amazon's leadership principles Technical principles too: microservices. Firm size follow a Zipf distribution, thus in most case the decision was made it wasn't necessary and actually slowed down development.
- genewitch 2y ago
  That's also passive-aggrsssive. "I have scheduled beginning $X on $Date. Documentation:... Please remit any feedback, please and thank you" And in the second example, unrelated to the first scenario: "I had planned to begin $X on $Date, but priorities have shifted and $X is being tabled for now. Documentation:... Please remote any feedback, please and thank you." Don't lie or whatever, or do. I don't, but none of this feels manipulative, you're just managing your time and workload. I may have missed some nuance.
  - close04 2y ago
    No matter how it’s formulated it looks exactly like the “opt-out” everyone on HN hates when it’s done to them. It’s effective so it’s great when it works for you not against you.

rzzzt 2y ago

So, an ultimatum?

whazor 2y ago

For teams where there is more document scrutiny and more involved team members, the key is to have two or three proposals and make a really strong case for your recommendation. And don’t even start a big review before having a recommendation. If you are stuck, I would suggest talking one on one with team members to get further. Also, try to remove all information that is not needed for the decision process to the appendix (or just fully remove it). Your recommendation will be the approach that you will continue doing if there is no one disagreeing.

Cthulhu_ 2y ago

I wish I could do this with merge requests but unfortunately we'll have to find some other way.

magic_hamster 2y ago

This sounds like it could result in a chaotic culture where everyone does whatever they want unless actively stopped. For a busy tech lead or staff engineer this sounds like a total nightmare. If you're already asking someone about your plan, there's probably a reason for that and maybe there are limitations or dependencies you're not aware of.

Salgat 2y ago
You generally reserve this tactic for people who act as blockers for everything, or for people who aren't critical to the project/action but still need to be notified.
pixl97 2y ago
The problem with busy tech whatevers is they will quite often not reply nor give a reasonable timeliness on which something can be done. This method forces them to lay out the timeline they can adhere to, and it works as a CYA as it shows you/your group is ready to act and is being blocked by others. It's up to upper management at that point to deconflict blockers.

Xenoamorphous 2y ago

> This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost. Tangential but I work at a moderatly big company (no idea how many employees) but the tech department where I work is like 50 people, so rather small; and that’s what I consider “the company”. I’m so busy I’m really close to burning out. And except for a couple of slackers, everyone is really busy too. So I’m not sure the size of the company correlates a lot with how busy people are.

thevarmint 2y ago

In the military, it gets abbreviated “UNODIR” meaning “Unless otherwise directed”.

dctoedt 2y ago
Glad I searched for UNODIR before making this comment! And that'd be a useful code to include in the subject line of the email, e.g.: To: Boss From: Me Subj: UNODIR by [DATE], upgrading the production database

friendzis 2y ago

Yes, in big companies you can get away with a lot of weird shit, but it takes two to tango. If your XYZ depends on someone such an email is a surefire way to get them popping their corns when they will put your request for help into backlog with an estimated slot for a timebox in... 2027.