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Tesla recalls 380k vehicles in US over power steering assist issue
- jayflux 2y ago[flagged]
- kevin_thibedeau 2y agoNHTSA uses recalls for all vehicle defects. I have two outstanding recalls for a Ford that will be a software only fix when they're ready.
- techorange 2y agoI mean, the more we use the word, the more people will figure it out right? Also, it seems like we should differentiate between a software update that puts new features in your music app and one that fixes power steering.
- bumby 2y agoThere’s an interesting linguistic concept of a “retronym” meaning a term that is created because it needs distinction in the context of technological change. An example is an “acoustic guitar”. There was no reason for that term prior to the invention of an electric guitar because everything was just a “guitar”. Maybe it’s time to differentiate based on user interaction with a recall, but as it currently stands, they are all “recalls” just like acoustic and electric variants are all still “guitars”.
- Oarch 2y agoI don't understand this 'recall' language. Isn't it just a software update? "The company has released an over-the-air software update to fix the issue, it said."
- flounder3 2y agoIt’s the law. OTA updates are not instant nor are they 100% guaranteed, so consumers must be notified.
- xur17 2y agoSounds efficient.
- wwweston 2y agoThe economy of thought that you brought to that comment could be seen as impressively efficient, depending on the outcome you want to optimize for given inputs.
- llamaimperative 2y agoTo notify consumers of safety issues using the existing rails that are used to notify consumers of safety issues?
- ToucanLoucan 2y agoIt's not meant to be efficient; it's meant to be thorough, and auditable, and if required, able to be litigated in court.
- dmix 2y agoIt's also used in warranty claims in the private market.
- lubujackson 2y agoSo just to be clear: - they knew the assist was dangerously broken - while people drove around with this dangerous code running they worked on improving the code so they could say it is now "fixed" - released the update I see how this is the most... efficient... way to handle the situation, from a monetary perspective. But this is not how I, or anyone I know, would handle life-critical code. Not to bring politics into yet another thread, but this is not a smart or human way to handle things. First, you disable the damn road assist. It's an optional feature, FFS!
- wwweston 2y agoI don't have expertise in why the language is used, but I'd imagine: * this is the language traditionally used in automobiles * the term probably has a specific meaning with regulatory and culturally established implications throughout organizations that touch maintenance and safety * it may get more meaningful for whatever subset of autos that didn't/can't receive the OTA update
- curo 2y agoOr it's just a misleading headline
- llamaimperative 2y agoIf only a 5 second Google search could tell you: https://autocrypt.io/transformation-of-vehicle-recall/ https://autocrypt.io/transformation-of-vehicle-recall/
- curo 2y agoThe fact that this thread is full of people who envisioned a physical recall is evidence enough the word is misleading. If reuters was an industry journal, sure.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- llamaimperative 2y agoUhh the point is for people to take it seriously. Which works.
- bumby 2y agoThe headline is correctly using the term according to the NHTSA definition as a requirement for the manufacturer to fix an unreasonable safety issue. Whether it is OTA does not change the fact that it is a recall any more than if a manufacturer sent someone onsite to fix a mechanical issue instead of having the vehicle owner bring it in.
- MBCook 2y agoDo we have to go over this every time? Recall has a specific legal meaning for calls. That’s why it’s used. The law authorizes the government to demand “recalls”. It does not specify how that’s done. Software update, dealership visit, roaming packs of mechanics. This isn’t a conspiracy to make Tesla look bad, it’s the correct term.
- Oarch 2y agoIs it time for a new term? It may be correct but it also seems to be profoundly misunderstood by many.
- Tadpole9181 2y agoYou're welcome to go lobby congress to change it. But it is a legal requirement to say "recall", because that is the explicitly named power that they have been given by congress.
- theultdev 2y agoIs it a legal requirement to be ambiguous in the article title? Simply qualifying the overloaded term as "software recall" would suffice. Never happens though.
- saalweachter 2y agoThe last physical recall I had to take a car in was to have a zip tie affixed to some line or wire to minimize the chance of wear over time. Should we have a separate term for "a recall that isn't related to losing control of the vehicle and crashing"? It sounds bad to associate my car needing a zip tie to minimize wear with your car needing a software patch to not crash.
- theultdev 2y agonope, just "software recall" and "hardware recall" terms. that way you know whether to make sure you got the update or know to take the car in physically. severity for both can differ, that's what the details are for.
- ergocoder 2y agoit's an outdated legalese and the media capitalizes on it for clicks. They could have clarified that it was a software update in the title. But they never do.
- threeseed 2y agoBecause the media is doing its job and using the correct term. It's not going to be an OTA software update for everyone.
- michaelt 2y ago1. Once upon a time, cars had no software and no OTA updates. If there was a serious defect it had to be returned to a dealership for the defect to be rectified. This was a recall, i.e. an official order to return to a place. The NHTSA has the authority to require and coordinate recalls. 2. Then cars got software, but had no OTA updates. If there was a serious software defect, the car had to be returned to a dealership for them to install a software update. This was still called a recall - you still have to take the car back to the dealership, after all, and the NHTSA is still involved. 3. Then cars started receiving OTA software updates. As 2. established that a software update for a serious defect is called a 'recall', and the NHTSA is still involved through their recall-coordination authority, this is still called a recall even though the car doesn't have to be returned to a place.
- AlotOfReading 2y agoThe term recall has specific legal meaning that differentiates it from other notices like TSBs. A recall must be issued when an issue brings a vehicle out of compliance with FMVSS (the regulations determining what's road legal). Manufacturers and dealerships are not allowed to sell vehicles with outstanding recalls, and they're usually required to fix recalls regardless of warranty status for affected consumers. It doesn't say anything about the actual solution (which might be as trivial as a new manual), only the legal responsibilities that come with the notice.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- NathanKP 2y agoYou are missing: 4. Then cars started receiving OTA software updates, but a significant percentage of the cars already suffer irreparable damage to their computers before they installed the update, and therefore still have to be taken to the Tesla service center for repairs. It's a "recall" because frankly there is still a good chance you are going to have to go into a service center, even if the OTA update works.
- LargeWu 2y ago"It's just an OTA software update" The way the fix is applied is irrelevant. The important thing is that their vehicles have a safety issue and it needs to be fixed and documented for each vehicle.
- theultdev 2y agoIt's completely relevant. The term shouldn't be overloaded. When you see a recall you shouldn't have to wonder if it's a download or if you need to take the car in.
- flounder3 2y agoA recall means “PAY ATTENTION! Something may still be broken!” The recall will mention how to get it fixed, regardless of a OTA update or service visit. The lack of a mere download could mean the difference between life and death.
- reverendsteveii 2y agoI can't speak for the auto industry but I used to work in durable medical equipment and anything that involved fixing devices that are already in the field is a recall for legal purposes. Adding new functionality wasn't a recall, but if we claimed a device did a thing and then realized that we have to change the hardware or software in order to actually make the device do the thing, then that was a recall (technically a CAPA, "corrective or preventive action").
- horns4lyfe 2y ago[flagged]
- _DeadFred_ 2y agoNow the media is making Tesla's code bad and features unsafe. Is there any low the media won't reach for?
- itishappy 2y agoThey release software updates too. This is different. https://www.tesla.com/support/software-updates https://www.tesla.com/support/software-updates
- hansvm 2y ago- "Recall" statistics are a factor in new car purchases. I don't particularly care if the fix is OTA, but I do care about a brand's propensity for releasing safety-critical garbage. Skirting around those aggregations and consumer reports by skirting around the language is good for Tesla and not for purchasers. - If it's not a "recall," there isn't much of a government paper trail for consumers when the OTA update goes awry. You don't even know if you should have such and such version of the software, and if the patches are non-linear then it's non-obvious even to experts examining your car's current status whether it's been applied or not. - OTA updates for cars seem fraught with peril. Have you ever seen a bricked Tesla driving down the road? It's terrifying. Have you ever been the driver of such a Tesla while not in cell range? It's more terrifying because you don't know if the charge will last till you have cell service or what will happen if you're stuck in the middle of nowhere. Did they ensure the update would only apply after you've turned the car off and on again? Even if they did, if you drove your car and the steering/brakes/gas suddenly behaved differently, do you think you'd be more or less likely to crash? Whether they can technically solve the thing with an OTA update or not, it seems prudent (not that it's happening yet) to force people to make a proactive decision to opt in to the change.
- concordDance 2y ago> Have you ever seen a bricked Tesla driving down the road? It's terrifying. How often has this happened?
- hansvm 2y agoAt least once to every one of my friends with a Tesla. Apparently it's safe enough (your fly-by-wire brakes and whatnot still work), but not even having a speedometer available while you're driving doesn't give a lot of confidence in the machine you're in (and it might not be obvious till you test them that brakes will work or that you'll be able to start the car if you stop it somewhere without cell coverage).
- foobazgt 2y agoYou're talking about the MCU (media control unit), which is completely isolated from the critical driving functions of the vehicle. As its name implies, this unit mostly drives the vehicle's entertainment functions. It's actually incredibly confidence-inspiring to me to know that the MCU can go entirely offline and the vehicle continues to function at 100%. This seems like it must be table-stakes for all vehicles, but I've seen more surprising things. I'm not sure why you mention cell coverage, given that it is entirely unrelated.
- Barracoon 2y agoPerhaps this FAQ will help you https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2024-11/MVSDefectsandRecalls-Update_112124_v1a_tag.pdf https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2024-11/MVSDefec...
- gamblor956 2y agoA "recall" is a legal term of art referring to a (voluntary or government-mandated) fix for a safety-related issue affecting a motor vehicle. Recall has multiple meanings; in this context the meaning intended was "to summon back" to a location specified by the manufacturer so that the fix could be implemented. In modern times, "recall" for vehicles has been conflated with the term-of-art "recall" that is used with respect to consumer products, for which the intended meaning was "to return or revoke." (For those who don't see the difference: the first meaning is temporary, the second is permanent.)
- ProfessorZoom 2y agoAnytime they have a software update for a "recall", I imagine what the headlines would look like if Apple had to "recall 2 billions iPhones for a security fix"
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- phdp 2y agoMy iphone can't kill someone else moving 70 mph down the highway during the normal course of its operation.
- stavros 2y agoNot if the Mossad has anything to say about it.
- otterley 2y agoWTF, dude. The iPhone wasn’t designed to be an explosive device.
- FirmwareBurner 2y agoSamsung Note 7: hold my battery.
- ant6n 2y ago> The iPhone wasn’t designed to be an explosive device. …just like those pagers.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- Ajedi32 2y agoThe pagers actually were designed to be explosive devices. I'm guessing you didn't dig into the details of that story and just saw the headlines?
- debacle 2y agoIs this a physical recall or a software "recall?"
- porridgeraisin 2y ago[flagged]
- verdverm 2y agoA recall is a recall in automotive safety language, regardless of the method the remedy is delivered by. It means there was a safety issue with the vehicle severe enough that it needs to be publicly announced and added to the statistics and databases
- avgDev 2y agoHere we go again with Tesla cultist trying to change what the word "recall" means.
- niceice 2y agoDoes that mean the people defending the misuse of the word "recall" are regulation cultists?
- eagerpace 2y ago[flagged]
- Mekoloto 2y agoShouldn't a recall imply that this software update is so critical that a real danger was possible?
- freejazz 2y agoI don't think they are ignoring anything. One of those amazing things is cars. This is what it's called when the gov't mandates a software update for cars because of a safety issue... I'm not sure why that's controversial
- bumby 2y agoThis needs a broader context. On some fronts, software is amazing from a reliability perspective. It doesn’t wear out and can be updated easier. On the other hand, it creates new failure modes and interaction effects that are much harder to define, test, and mitigate thoroughly. Anyone who pretends software is wholly good or bad is probably wrong.
- renewiltord 2y agoI don’t get why we have these here on HN all the time. Lots of cars have recalls https://www.caranddriver.com/recalls/ https://www.caranddriver.com/recalls/
- hello_moto 2y agoCause it's Tesla which is own by someone who wants to deregulate a lot of things
- qwerpy 2y ago[flagged]
- justin66 2y agoPeople rightly or wrongly revel in the fact that while Tesla has a reputation for being good at software, in reality they're somewhat shit at it.
- theultdev 2y agoThis gives no insight of being "bad" or "good" at software. There is no such thing as zero bugs. You will have to rollback sometimes. But I'm sure you're perfect.
- y-c-o-m-b 2y agoFunny enough, Honda is recalling 1.7 million cars for a similar issue except it's a much larger recall and the parts have to be physically replaced: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a62570036/honda-steering-rack-recall/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a62570036/honda-steering-r...
- fpgaminer 2y agoBecause Tesla falls in the "startup" category in most people's minds (whether it _should_ fall in that category is irrelevant). And this is a forum run by startup investors, and frequented by startup investors. QED.
- josefresco 2y ago"In 2023, 23% or 82 out of 356 vehicle recalls involved software fixes, up one percent from 2022." https://news.dealershipguy.com/p/software-related-vehicle-recalls-surge-since-2014-2024-09-27 https://news.dealershipguy.com/p/software-related-vehicle-re...
- Me001 2y ago[dead]
- londons_explore 2y ago> Tesla said that if this overstress condition occurs while the vehicle is in motion, the steering remains unaffected, and a visual alert is triggered. But once the vehicle stops, the steering assist may fail and remain disabled when it moves again. IMO, this isn't a safety issue worthy of a recall then. Any component failure that pops up a warning and allows the driver to safely pull over to be towed for a repair is not a safety concern. Obviously, users might expect more of an expensive car - but that's what warranties and consumer protection laws are for, not safety recalls.
- snailmailstare 2y agoIt's not clear to me if the light stays on, a PR department is likely to not be vague about something positive. Anyone used to past vehicles of similar size may expect less risk driving a car with no power steering to a shop (or just away from a risky place to be stopped).
- numpad0 2y agoIn a filing with NHTSA, Tesla said some 2023 Model 3 sedans and Model Y crossovers running older software could face an overvoltage breakdown, potentially overstressing motor drive components on the printed circuit board. Doesn't sound like a pure software issue to me. "It's just update not a recall" doesn't apply. This is software mitigation and/or bugfix to software-hardware design failure, the kind that simply shouldn't ship. They swiss-cheesed something elementary as EPAS and had to waste time and money pushing an update. That's an "L", as kids these days say.
- HumblyTossed 2y agoA recall on a car means that the manufacturer has identified a safety-related defect in the vehicle and is taking some action to correct it. It doesn't matter if it's OTA or the customer has to bring it in. Can we please stop pissing about the language every single time?
- tromp 2y agoAs a service to the many people who still think of recalls as being physical in nature, they could call it a soft recall (as opposed to a hard recall).
- threeseed 2y agoOr the insignificant minority of people who deeply care could simply learn what the word means. It is about so much more than how the fix gets delivered.
- potato3732842 2y agoMeta rant: What drives me up the wall is the cognitive dissonance. Toyota or Volvo or any other "good" brand recalls something and everyone is all "ooh, they're taking things back to fix them at great expense, look how much they care about their customers" Tesla, Chrysler or any "bad" brand recalls something and it's all "hurr durr, steaming pile of crap is unfit for the road"
- exogeny 2y agoWhich ones have an active CEO running the business, and which one has a completely absent narcissist ketamine addict bent on destroying things he doesn't understand when he's not ignoring his children?
- hdivider 2y agoIt's not cognitive dissonance. The head of Tesla is not a legitimate business person. That is the difference. He is now deep in the most sensitive parts of government. And this is only the beginning. If Koji Sato of Toyota had access to everyone's SSN, EIN, all financial audits, a large part of or essentially all details on all federal government contracts, there would be outrage too.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- potato3732842 2y ago>It's not cognitive dissonance. Then what is it? I'm no fan of Musk and friends and what they're up to but Tesla making the same cars of about the same quality since before Musk became the bad guy and everything associated with him became tainted. The way Tesla turned on a dime from being lauded by every idiot with an internet connection like Toyota to being derided like the Stellantis brands despite no substantive change in their products and offerings really lays bare the degree to which people lack principals and let their assessment of what is good and bad, right and wrong, or serious and trivial, blow in the wind based on the parties involved.
- bwoj 2y agoI guess DOGE will set its sights on NHTSA next.
- gamblor956 2y agoThat actually happened already... https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2025/02/21/musk-doge-tesla-autonomous-vehicles-nhtsa/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2025/02/21/musk-doge... (paywall)
- tzs 2y ago> Tesla on Friday said it was recalling 376,000 of its electric vehicles in the U.S., due to a failure of the power steering assist feature that could make the vehicles harder to steer, particularly at low speeds, raising the risk of a crash. I'm curious what happens if this fails and you try to use FSD. Is it: • Power steering assist only applies to manual steering so FSD notices nothing different, • Power steering assist does assist FSD's steering, but FSD uses feedback from what the car actually does to decide how to steer and so it will compensate for the change in steering characteristics, • It will notice something is off with the steering and tell the human to take over, or • Something else.