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The consensus on r/aviation seems to be that it was caused by wind shear. > This looks like wind shear to me. It was a stable approach and then it suddenly got

by lqet 2y ago

The consensus on r/aviation seems to be that it was caused by wind shear. > This looks like wind shear to me. It was a stable approach and then it suddenly got slammed into the ground. That doesn't look like pilot-induced change in descent rate, it is too sudden for that. A sudden change in wind direction (shear) when that slow can absolutely cause a sudden loss of lift. > We have had almost 2 feet of snow up here since Friday, and are experiencing wind gusts up to 65 mph. Has basically been a winter hurricane. > This is a CRJ landing on Runway 23 at YYZ. It is an 11,000’ runway. Winds at the time where gusting from the NE likely north of 30 knots, so this was a cross wind landing. My bet is that it wasn’t the worst situation that any of the pilots had been in. Delta is a pretty good company. Guessing (as a GA pilot and talking to pilots of bigger birds than this —- I know a few). Likely wind shear or wake turbulence. The wake turbulence part would be a reach considering the cross wind component would have blown it away by the time of this landing.

leoedin 2y ago
Wake turbulence almost killed someone I knew flying a training jet. He landed after a heavy aircraft and the cross wind was just enough to counter the natural spreading of wake turbulence. There was basically a horizontal tornado over the runway. When he hit it he lost all roll control. He ended up ejecting horizontally across the grass and somehow survived.
- matwood 2y ago
  I fly a lot and the only time I've ever thought 'this is it' was one time taking off out of Denver International. The airport is out on the plains east of the city and is known for high winds. We were taking off and nose had just started to lift up when a wind gust cause the entire plane to roll to the left. I could see the wing out my window and am still surprised to this day it didn't touch the ground. The pilot corrected, it felt like, by increasing our angle up and we finished taking off sliding a bit sideways.
  - lqet 2y ago
    We were once landing on Madeira, one of the most dangerous airports in the world. Even a nice landing there is quite uncomfortable. For some time you fly very close to the ocean, heading straight into the cliffs, and only in the last moment the plane seems to make a right turn to approach the runway. We made a wobbly touchdown, people already wanted to get up, when suddenly the plane was again lifted a few meters and rolled to the right, only to then slam very hard onto the runway again. When we came to a stop, the pilot commented: "We, errm, have arrived at Funchal, in case you were, errm, irritated about the landing, we were too."
    - aa-jv 2y ago
      I'm from Perth, one of the windiest cities in the world, and had a very similar situation landing once, a few years ago .. seemed like we were on center runway, everything seemed fine for smooth landing, and .. what felt like meters before touchdown, a gust came up and we rolled hard left, the wingtip barely escaping scraping the ground. The pilot corrected the roll and we did a go-around for another attempt, 30 minutes later while the wind settled. Was such a harrowing experience that, when travelling back home from abroad, I try to fly into Port Hedland and then just take a 10-hour bus ride. (Okay, I admit that I do that mostly so I can get my jet-lag adjusted at the beaches of Shark Bay along the way .. ;)
    - jonasdegendt 2y ago
      Your description of the landing reminds me of the old Hong Kong Kai Tak airport approach. You basically had to fly straight over the city, high rise buildings straight ahead, and bank right as hard as the plane would let you at just the right time to hit the runway. Outside perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKqO6gdJIz8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKqO6gdJIz8 Cockpit view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx3Ccs5tKfw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx3Ccs5tKfw
      - FabHK 2y ago
        Ah, the good old "checkerboard" approach. Visible in the second video from 3:10 to 3:25 on the left, and when it was clearly visible it was time to turn right and land. After the move to the new Chek Lap Kok airport in 1998, the checker board fell into disrepair, but was renovated a while ago. It's visible from my office in its old red-and-white glory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai_Tak_Airport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai_Tak_Airport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkerboard_Hill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkerboard_Hill https://droneandslr.com/travel-blog/hong-kong/checkerboard-hill/ https://droneandslr.com/travel-blog/hong-kong/checkerboard-h...
- fransje26 2y ago
  Unlikely. They are landing on runway 23, with, from the METAR, wind coming from 270 at 28 knots. That's more than enough crosswind to clear any wake turbulence that could have been there. (See [1]) [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225007139_Crosswind_Thresholds_Supporting_Wake-Vortex-Free_Corridors_for_Departing_Aircraft https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225007139_Crosswind...
- chris_va 2y ago
  That was my first thought too. I've been flipped slideways flying short final (cessna) by a heavy jet that departed 90 seconds prior on a parallel runway. Fortunately I was high enough to recover, but it could have gone very differently. Wind shear seems more likely this close to the ground, but I'm sure we'll get a nice write-up after the investigation.
vlovich123 2y ago
65 mph or 65 kph? I was seeing confusion about the units for that number.
- fransje26 2y ago
  The METAR says gusts to 35kt, so about 65 km/h.
briandear 2y ago
Looks like a microburst to me, but same family as windshear
- sitkack 2y ago
  This is a pretty infamous video catching a microburst event on camera https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_WmjWAGkLI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_WmjWAGkLI (no injuries),
  - bredren 2y ago
    /r/aviation conversation on this video: https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/295ape/a_not_so_microburst/ https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/295ape/a_not_so_m...
- ominous_prime 2y ago
  I doubt there was a thunderstorm in the area in the middle of the winter
  - Scoundreller 2y ago
    We’ve had thunderstorms in winter during snowfall Toronto. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thundersnow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thundersnow But the snow rates were slow enough yesterday that I don’t think that was happening.
    - ominous_prime 2y ago
      yeah, "middle of winter" wasn't quite right, but the chances of a microburst during what is an otherwise already windy/gusty winter day are basically none
chuckSu 2y ago
[dead]
fransje26 2y ago
Interestingly, I found a deck of studying cards from Endeavor-Air, for the CRJ 900 limiations [1]. Card 18 states: Max allowable crosswind component for takeoff and landing on a runway when the braking action is “FAIR” => 20 knots That also seems to overlap with what is being discussed by CRJ pilots in this reddit thread [2] (EDIT: also discussed today here [3]) If the METAR is correct, they were landing with a crosswind of 28 knots, gusting to 35, on what doesn't look like a "dry" runway. So they might have been over their operational limits here. [1] https://www.brainscape.com/flashcards/endeavor-air-crj-900-limitations-2555183/packs/4461087 https://www.brainscape.com/flashcards/endeavor-air-crj-900-l... [2] https://old.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/rf3oqc/landing_in_gusty_winds_question_about_crj/ https://old.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/rf3oqc/landing_in... [3] https://old.reddit.com/r/FlightDispatch/comments/1irubk0/curious_what_the_crosswind_limits_are_landing_on/ https://old.reddit.com/r/FlightDispatch/comments/1irubk0/cur...
- sitharus 2y ago
  The METAR was 27028G35KT, or 28 gusting 35 from 270° magnetic However the runway landing was 33, or 330° magnetic. So this is 24-30kt crosswind component. The maximum landing crosswind on a dry runway is 32kt. The press conference reported the runway as dry, so if they’re correct then it’s within limits. At the reported -9°c if the runway has been de-iced it could be dry I guess? The surveillance potato camera makes it look like a hard landing on the right main, which is mounted on the wing root. But it’s very low quality and we’re not going to get the first real answers for a month.
  - fransje26 2y ago
    > However the runway landing was 33, or 330° magnetic. They were landing on runway 23. > At the reported -9°c if the runway has been de-iced it could be dry I guess? From the NOTAM, the runway condition codes for 23 were 5/5/5, so not dry, but "good". [1] https://avherald.com/h?article=52439b47&opt=1 https://avherald.com/h?article=52439b47&opt=1
    - ericpauley 2y ago
sim7c00 2y ago
experienced a windshear once in malaysia. only feet from the ground during landing. thankfully the pilots kept control and there were only a few bumps and bloody noses as a result (we slammed super hard into the tarmac, could feel.the moment of freefall clearly). this stuff is absolutely terrifying. i can imagine its a moment of total loss of control for a pilot, and having to basically on instinct regain it in milliseconds o.O. crazy stuff.
loufe 2y ago
I live nearby the airport and can attest to just how intense the wind was yesterday. I think the idea of a gust makes more sense though, as planes are certainly designed and operated to handle strong winds.
havaloc 2y ago
Watching the video it doesn't look like there was any flaring as you see right above the runway when landing. The approach seemed pretty stable to me and it just slammed into the runway. Some comments on that thread also noted lack of flaring. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/cMC5lrE5Zek https://www.youtube.com/shorts/cMC5lrE5Zek

by lqet 2y ago

leoedin 2y ago

Wake turbulence almost killed someone I knew flying a training jet. He landed after a heavy aircraft and the cross wind was just enough to counter the natural spreading of wake turbulence. There was basically a horizontal tornado over the runway. When he hit it he lost all roll control. He ended up ejecting horizontally across the grass and somehow survived.

matwood 2y ago
I fly a lot and the only time I've ever thought 'this is it' was one time taking off out of Denver International. The airport is out on the plains east of the city and is known for high winds. We were taking off and nose had just started to lift up when a wind gust cause the entire plane to roll to the left. I could see the wing out my window and am still surprised to this day it didn't touch the ground. The pilot corrected, it felt like, by increasing our angle up and we finished taking off sliding a bit sideways.
- lqet 2y ago
  We were once landing on Madeira, one of the most dangerous airports in the world. Even a nice landing there is quite uncomfortable. For some time you fly very close to the ocean, heading straight into the cliffs, and only in the last moment the plane seems to make a right turn to approach the runway. We made a wobbly touchdown, people already wanted to get up, when suddenly the plane was again lifted a few meters and rolled to the right, only to then slam very hard onto the runway again. When we came to a stop, the pilot commented: "We, errm, have arrived at Funchal, in case you were, errm, irritated about the landing, we were too."
  - aa-jv 2y ago
    I'm from Perth, one of the windiest cities in the world, and had a very similar situation landing once, a few years ago .. seemed like we were on center runway, everything seemed fine for smooth landing, and .. what felt like meters before touchdown, a gust came up and we rolled hard left, the wingtip barely escaping scraping the ground. The pilot corrected the roll and we did a go-around for another attempt, 30 minutes later while the wind settled. Was such a harrowing experience that, when travelling back home from abroad, I try to fly into Port Hedland and then just take a 10-hour bus ride. (Okay, I admit that I do that mostly so I can get my jet-lag adjusted at the beaches of Shark Bay along the way .. ;)
  - jonasdegendt 2y ago
    Your description of the landing reminds me of the old Hong Kong Kai Tak airport approach. You basically had to fly straight over the city, high rise buildings straight ahead, and bank right as hard as the plane would let you at just the right time to hit the runway. Outside perspective: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKqO6gdJIz8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKqO6gdJIz8 Cockpit view: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx3Ccs5tKfw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx3Ccs5tKfw
    - FabHK 2y ago
      Ah, the good old "checkerboard" approach. Visible in the second video from 3:10 to 3:25 on the left, and when it was clearly visible it was time to turn right and land. After the move to the new Chek Lap Kok airport in 1998, the checker board fell into disrepair, but was renovated a while ago. It's visible from my office in its old red-and-white glory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai_Tak_Airport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kai_Tak_Airport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkerboard_Hill https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Checkerboard_Hill https://droneandslr.com/travel-blog/hong-kong/checkerboard-hill/ https://droneandslr.com/travel-blog/hong-kong/checkerboard-h...
fransje26 2y ago
Unlikely. They are landing on runway 23, with, from the METAR, wind coming from 270 at 28 knots. That's more than enough crosswind to clear any wake turbulence that could have been there. (See [1]) [1] https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225007139_Crosswind_Thresholds_Supporting_Wake-Vortex-Free_Corridors_for_Departing_Aircraft https://www.researchgate.net/publication/225007139_Crosswind...
chris_va 2y ago
That was my first thought too. I've been flipped slideways flying short final (cessna) by a heavy jet that departed 90 seconds prior on a parallel runway. Fortunately I was high enough to recover, but it could have gone very differently. Wind shear seems more likely this close to the ground, but I'm sure we'll get a nice write-up after the investigation.

vlovich123 2y ago

65 mph or 65 kph? I was seeing confusion about the units for that number.

fransje26 2y ago
The METAR says gusts to 35kt, so about 65 km/h.

briandear 2y ago

Looks like a microburst to me, but same family as windshear

sitkack 2y ago
This is a pretty infamous video catching a microburst event on camera https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_WmjWAGkLI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_WmjWAGkLI (no injuries),
- bredren 2y ago
  /r/aviation conversation on this video: https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/295ape/a_not_so_microburst/ https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/295ape/a_not_so_m...
ominous_prime 2y ago
I doubt there was a thunderstorm in the area in the middle of the winter
- Scoundreller 2y ago
  We’ve had thunderstorms in winter during snowfall Toronto. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thundersnow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thundersnow But the snow rates were slow enough yesterday that I don’t think that was happening.
  - ominous_prime 2y ago
    yeah, "middle of winter" wasn't quite right, but the chances of a microburst during what is an otherwise already windy/gusty winter day are basically none

chuckSu 2y ago

[dead]

fransje26 2y ago

Interestingly, I found a deck of studying cards from Endeavor-Air, for the CRJ 900 limiations [1]. Card 18 states: Max allowable crosswind component for takeoff and landing on a runway when the braking action is “FAIR” => 20 knots That also seems to overlap with what is being discussed by CRJ pilots in this reddit thread [2] (EDIT: also discussed today here [3]) If the METAR is correct, they were landing with a crosswind of 28 knots, gusting to 35, on what doesn't look like a "dry" runway. So they might have been over their operational limits here. [1] https://www.brainscape.com/flashcards/endeavor-air-crj-900-limitations-2555183/packs/4461087 https://www.brainscape.com/flashcards/endeavor-air-crj-900-l... [2] https://old.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/rf3oqc/landing_in_gusty_winds_question_about_crj/ https://old.reddit.com/r/aviation/comments/rf3oqc/landing_in... [3] https://old.reddit.com/r/FlightDispatch/comments/1irubk0/curious_what_the_crosswind_limits_are_landing_on/ https://old.reddit.com/r/FlightDispatch/comments/1irubk0/cur...

sitharus 2y ago
The METAR was 27028G35KT, or 28 gusting 35 from 270° magnetic However the runway landing was 33, or 330° magnetic. So this is 24-30kt crosswind component. The maximum landing crosswind on a dry runway is 32kt. The press conference reported the runway as dry, so if they’re correct then it’s within limits. At the reported -9°c if the runway has been de-iced it could be dry I guess? The surveillance potato camera makes it look like a hard landing on the right main, which is mounted on the wing root. But it’s very low quality and we’re not going to get the first real answers for a month.
- fransje26 2y ago
  > However the runway landing was 33, or 330° magnetic. They were landing on runway 23. > At the reported -9°c if the runway has been de-iced it could be dry I guess? From the NOTAM, the runway condition codes for 23 were 5/5/5, so not dry, but "good". [1] https://avherald.com/h?article=52439b47&opt=1 https://avherald.com/h?article=52439b47&opt=1
  - ericpauley 2y ago

sim7c00 2y ago

experienced a windshear once in malaysia. only feet from the ground during landing. thankfully the pilots kept control and there were only a few bumps and bloody noses as a result (we slammed super hard into the tarmac, could feel.the moment of freefall clearly). this stuff is absolutely terrifying. i can imagine its a moment of total loss of control for a pilot, and having to basically on instinct regain it in milliseconds o.O. crazy stuff.

loufe 2y ago

I live nearby the airport and can attest to just how intense the wind was yesterday. I think the idea of a gust makes more sense though, as planes are certainly designed and operated to handle strong winds.

havaloc 2y ago

Watching the video it doesn't look like there was any flaring as you see right above the runway when landing. The approach seemed pretty stable to me and it just slammed into the runway. Some comments on that thread also noted lack of flaring. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/cMC5lrE5Zek https://www.youtube.com/shorts/cMC5lrE5Zek