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The Yale article and the paper both highlight the fact that EVs use regenerative braking and produce less dust. I was worried that this was a rehash of the ast
by orev 2y ago
The Yale article and the paper both highlight the fact that EVs use regenerative braking and produce less dust.
I was worried that this was a rehash of the astroturf campaign from a few years ago focusing on EV weight and how that was so bad for the environment because of tire and road wear. Unfortunately you need to read through the whole thing (instead of the headline and a few paragraphs) to see that information.
- akoboldfrying 2y ago>astroturf Is the much greater weight of EVs not worse for tire and road wear?
- malfist 2y agoRoad wear? Not really. Tire wear? In the strictest sense, yes. But keep in mind, a lot of those studies measured "ev" tire wear by throwing a bunch of weight into the trunk of a gas car. Not exactly the same thing. Holistically, particle emissions from EVs are lower than gas powered cars due to reduced breaking (even above hybrids) and reduced exhaust. At the end of the day, the vast vast vast majority of road wear and particle emissions are semi trucks. Not only do they weigh a heck of a lot more, but they also wear their tires until they disintegrate, when was the last time you saw an exploded tire remains on the side of the road and it wasn't from a semi?
- patmorgan23 2y agoIsn't road wear scale with the 4th power of vehicle weight? EV vehicle weight definitely moves some needles in the wrong direction. A Toyota Corolla weighs about 3,000, the Tesla model 3 weighs 3,500-4,000 depending on which model you buy. So a 16-33% increase in vehicle weight. A Corolla will do 8.1 x 10^13 'damage points' A light model 3, 1.5 x10^14 'damage points' And a heavy model 3, 2.6x10^14 So moving to EV vehicles would move the damage done by the average commuter by an order of magnitude. There are of course much heavier vehicles on the road as well, such as a standard empty garbage truck weights around 33k pounds and will do 1.2 x 10^18 damage points. So significantly more wear per mile traveled, but there are also far more vehicle miles traveled by those lighter class vehicles as well. EV are probably still a net positive, but the real solution is to stop designing our cities and transportation systems exclusively around low occupancy vehicles. Walking, biking, and transit, also need to.be options for getting around.
- malfist 2y agoGarbage trucks aren't exactly a good comparison here. Your typical empty semi truck weighs 35k pounds, and a lot more when loaded. There's also more miles driven by semi trucks than passenger vehicles
- thebruce87m 2y ago> much greater weight It was part of the astroturf effort to convince people that they are massively heavier, and you see it was successful with comments like this where it is claimed that they are “much greater” in weight with nothing quantified. Of course the hummer was heavier, but not everyone has the hummer. > full electric versions are only around 10% to 15% heavier than their direct ICE equivalent. https://thedriven.io/2024/05/03/are-evs-really-much-heavier-than-their-ice-equivalents/amp/ https://thedriven.io/2024/05/03/are-evs-really-much-heavier-... > Starting with the Tesla Model 3 weighing in at between 1777Kg and 1840Kg > A comparable ICE car the BMW 3 series 1570Kg - 1965Kg > And another ICE car the Mercedes C class 1665Kg - 2190Kg > And finally another EV the Ford Mustang Mach-E 1993Kg - 2218Kg https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-perception-of-Tesla-cars-being-heavy-compared-to-other-cars-Is-there-a-significant-difference-in-weight-between-Tesla-models-and-other-cars https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-perception-of-Tesla-cars-b...
- akoboldfrying 2y ago> > full electric versions are only around 10% to 15% heavier than their direct ICE equivalent. The actual range quoted in the table at that link is 11%-17%. > > A comparable ICE car the BMW 3 series 1570Kg - 1965Kg Interesting that one "ICE" car can vary in weight by over 25%, or almost 400kg. Maybe it's because that weight "range" isn't really for that ICE car. The low end of the range is suspiciously close to the 1590kg figure for the BMW 320i, an actual ICE car: https://www.bmw.co.nz/en/all-models/3-series/bmw-3-series-sedan/bmw-3-series-sedan.html/bmw-320i-sedan.bmw https://www.bmw.co.nz/en/all-models/3-series/bmw-3-series-se... While the upper end of the range is suspiciously close to the 1910kg of the BMW 330e -- a plug-in hybrid: https://www.bmw.co.nz/en/all-models/3-series/bmw-3-series-sedan/bmw-3-series-sedan.html/bmw-330e-plug_in-hybrid.bmw https://www.bmw.co.nz/en/all-models/3-series/bmw-3-series-se... I guess both sides can astroturf.
- thebruce87m 2y agoI didn’t take me long to find this: https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-specs/BMW/119385/BMW-G20-3-Series-M340d-xDrive.html https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-specs/BMW/119385/BMW-G20-3... > Curb Weight : 4206 lbs / 1908 kg I suspect if I looked through every model I’d find heavier ICE only but close enough I’d say.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoHas someone actually measured that tradeoff (weight versus regenerative braking) to determine where it is an even tradeoff? And surely regenerative braking has its own shedding of particles from all the moving parts.
- eagerpace 2y agoRegen braking uses magnets and takes place inside an encased and oil-cooled motor which should eliminate airborne debris.
- hypercube33 2y agoRubber still wears off tires though so that may be worse or not for heavier vehicles
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- melling 2y agoWorried about heavy vehicles? The best selling vehicle is the Ford F-series.
- linsomniac 2y agoWhich is 4,500-5,500lbs curb weight, just FYI.
- jethro_tell 2y agoWhich comes out 200lb lighter than a Toyota Highlander hybrid.
- linsomniac 2y agoFrom what I understand, Ford did some really significant work on lightening the F150 maybe 5+ years ago, I was surprised at how light they are. Looks like a Tesla Model S for comparison is $4,300-5,000lbs.
- caycep 2y agoGranted, I would still rather them designed for lighter weight. But that’s a separate issue w suv culture which is bad for society and environment in general. Totally would buy a 3000 pound EV around the size of a euro hatch.
- peterbecich 2y agoAgreed about SUV culture. American consumers demand giant cars. It is a safety arms race and also cultural preference.
- BigGreenJorts 2y agoI'm not convinced of the "safety". SUVs (and larger cars in general) have higher risk of roll over. Not to mention you're a bigger target on the road; how often are accidents head-on collisions compared to a corner clip that sends the other spinning. Don't majority of "accidents" happen in parking lots? Last year I was driving a lot of different cars for work. I was really excited once when I got a RAV4 because I've lived most Toyotas I've driven and I've never tried any of their SUVs. The car doesn't come with blindspots mirrors and it is actually impossible to see a car sitting in your blindspots.
- peterbecich 2y agoI would prefer to live in a world where all the cars are small. Taking your example of a corner clip, the larger car would fare better; the smaller car will spin more. There is no better description than "arms race." I understand there are edge cases with rollover, etc. but the first rule is mass. I suppose the second rule is where between the two cars the force is absorbed. Ideally bumper-to-bumper. Modified lifted trucks ought to be banned as far as I'm concerned; it defeats the factory design that had to comply with laws.
- redeux 2y agoThe Nissan Leaf is in the 3000 lbs range and a fairly small hatchback.
- hinkley 2y agoThe brakes on my VW lasted so long that I called all the shops I’d been to see if they had a record of me buying new pads. The last guy said they were aftermarket, so I don't know if there’s a shop I forgot or may have accidentally gotten new pads because someone read a work order wrong. But they still last a long time because the DSGs of that era used engine braking and lots of gears to get better gas mileage than the manual version. Which was rare up to that point. Manual almost always got you better mileage than the automatic. Engine braking saves you a ton because the brakes wear out faster the harder you brake. I don’t recall if it’s just the pressure or if it’s the heat. Now he did tell me the aftermarket’s don’t have copper sinters in them, which is how he clocked them as replacements. Sometime after I bought my car they banned copper in brake pads due to metal pollution.
- Gibbon1 2y agoJust a note. If the manufacturers can get solid state batteries to the point where they are economic then EV's will be as heavy or perhaps lighter than gas cars. Actually a 50% increase in energy density is enough. And solid state batteries have twice the energy density. So likely lighter. Jevons paradox says cheap EV's are maybe not so great. Consider if a cheap car cost a $100k most people wouldn't own cars. They'd walk or take the bus or subway. You wouldn't usually have to walk far, buses and subways would come often.
- ghaff 2y agoMany people live in locations where walking, the bus, or subway are never going to be practical and/or do regular activities that need personal transportation. If a car cost $100K I'd almost certainly still own one.
- Gibbon1 2y agoInteresting historia I saw. A bus schedule for Geary st from 1924. Buses came every few minutes and took less time than it takes by car today. Just saying electric cars not a panacea for everything.
- ghaff 2y agoYeah, but Geary St. is close to downtown in a fairly large city. At that point, you can argue about whether you'd still want to own a car for casual trips outside the city. But you could survive without one. But I can't walk anywhere from where I live (well, except down to the river in the woods) and there's no real transit system at all. If I couldn't drive, I'd have to relocate.
- amanaplanacanal 2y agoYes, but people like you are a special case, not the typical case. Most people live in cities or suburbs.
- kiba 2y ago
- Tade0 2y agoI think someone eventually pointed out that a typical bus weighs around 10x that of a car while having maybe twice the tyre surface area in contact with the ground. According to the 4th power law that translates to 625x the road (and thus also tyre) wear, meaning even a fully loaded bus should produce significantly more particulates than the equivalent in cars with just one occupant each.
- adgjlsfhk1 2y agoyeah this is very wrong. air pressure, acceleration and tire compound make a huge difference in tire wear
- kjkjadksj 2y agoWell on that busy road the bus might only come once every 10 minuted or less and contribute to taking maybe 50 other cars off the road.
- originalvichy 2y agoPeople also nearly always forget to account for the traction control of EVs vs. ICEs. EVs have a faster electronic traction control system that results in less tyre spin, which results in less wear on both the tyre and, in the case of winter, the road itself, as studded tyres eat away at the asphalt.