5 ms·

A Year of Telepathy

194 points by julianh65 2y ago

hexator 2y ago
Not mentioned at all is the failure rate, which back in May was reported by Ars to be 85% with the first patient, Noland. [1] [1] https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/05/neuralink-to-implant-2nd-human-with-brain-chip-as-75-of-threads-retract-in-1st/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/05/neuralink-to-implant...
- OsrsNeedsf2P 2y ago
  This is 85% of the threads in the device failed, yet it was allegedly mitigated after a software update, and usage of Neurolink continued to climb for the patient, suggesting the device is still functional
  - InDubioProRubio 2y ago
    What about the scar tissue those implants generate? How did they avoid that?
kadushka 2y ago
I’m curious why for Noland and Alex the implant usage dropped in the fourth month?
- _--__--__ 2y ago
  In both cases it looks more like a usage spike in the third month and then back to a pattern of roughly linear growth. Not sure if those spikes were related to updates to the neuralink itself or they just got really into a game/project/etc
walrus01 2y ago
I am extremely unlikely to ever allow anything even vaguely related to Elon Musk to implant something in my brain, or even to wear as completely noninvasive "through the skin" helmet or headband-like sensing device. Nevermind something with him as a founder.
- ivraatiems 2y ago
  If it was that or be paralyzed for the rest of your life, would you at least consider it? I don't like Musk and I find Neuralink spooky in terms of their overall goals, but it's hard to deny how much this invention helps people.
  - ben_w 2y ago
    Given the security track record of software in general, not even specifically those of Musk's companies but more broadly zero-days in all the major platforms, I would worry about a scenario half way between the plot of the film Upgrade and the long-standing trope of using hypnosis to turn someone into an unwitting assassin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upgrade_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upgrade_(film)
    - tmnvdb 2y ago
      It seems easy to worry about somewhat far-fetched scenarios like this when one is not paralyzed and thus not making a trade-off between risks and a fully paralyzed life.
      - ben_w 2y ago
        The tech itself is far-fetched; that hackers exploit vulnerabilities in every system is not, rather it is so common you can measure attempts in Herz.
        tmnvdb 2y ago
        You have again ignored the trade-off in your word-play.
        computerthings 2y ago
        If it would make the greed and exploitation that form people like Musk go away without a trace and forever, I'd happily to be paralyzed for the rest of my life. Nobody would even have to know and thank me for it, as long as I knew... I'd watch humanity flourish on TV and cry tears of happiness. Even the best version of my best life is still just 1 life.
jdoe1337halo 2y ago
As much as I hate Musk, this brings a tear to my eyes seeing these disabled people regain autonomy and feel like a person again.
- the_optimist 2y ago
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  - joseppudev 2y ago
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  - walrus01 2y ago
    At this point it would be much less effort to make a short list of the unquestionably good things he has done or is well known for, rather than attempting to list all of the despicable things he is recently associated with.
    - cubefox 2y ago
      [flagged]
      - Veserv 2y ago
        Well for one we can look to Diaz v. Tesla [1] where Tesla was found guilty of pervasive racism at the Tesla Fremont Factory in California: Pervasive usage of racial slurs by management: "Robert Hurtado, a supervisor at Tesla, called Diaz the N-word over 30 times, including by saying "[N-word], hurry up," "[N-words] are lazy," and "I wish I can get all you [N-words] fired." Tr. 3:604:23-606:8. Ramon Martinez, another Tesla supervisor, called Diaz the N-word over thirty times, said "I hate you, [N-word]," and told him "to go back to Africa." Tr. 3-603:11-604:20. Diaz's supervisor, Tamotsu "Tom" Kawasaki, testified that Martinez often used the words "mayate" and "chongo," both racial slurs in Spanish. Tr. 2-281:9-12." Burying complaints of proven racism and reprimanding the person bringing the complaint of racism: "Diaz testified that at one point, Martinez threatened to physically attack him at work and yelled at him, "You [N-words] aren't S-H-I-T." Tr. 3-610:2-612:7. Diaz complained to a supervisor, Ed Romero, and asked him to check the surveillance cameras, though Diaz's subsequent email complaint did not specifically mention racial insults. Tr. 3-612:8-614:23; see also Tr. 3-546:25-548:2 (Romero confirming this was recounted in an email). Tesla did not follow up, show Diaz the video, or interview witnesses after that event. Tr. 3-546:25-548:2, 612:8-614:23. Jackson testified that he interviewed Diaz and Martinez after the incident but did not interview the eyewitness, Rothaj Foster, because he was told by his boss to stop the investigation before it was complete. Tr. 2-387:10-390:18, 2-394:24-395:11. Jackson said he had "[v]ery little" control over how he investigated complaints. Tr. 2-396:8-397:12. Jackie Delgado Smith, a Human Resources representative, testified that Tesla HR was never told of the incident. Tr. 5-954:15-955:6. Subsequently, Diaz and Martinez were both given verbal warnings. Tr. 2-395:21-396:7. Martinez still works at Tesla. Tr. 3-571:11." Regular presence of objectively racist symbols in workplace facilities: "In addition to verbal harassment, Diaz encountered physical symbols of racism and hostility throughout his time at Tesla. On his second day at work, he saw racist graffiti in the bathroom, and continued to see the N-word and swastikas in bathrooms throughout the rest of his employment. Tr. 3-623:1-8. Another Black employee and later supervisor, Michael Wheeler, testified that he regularly saw racist graffiti, including the N-word and swastikas, and that Diaz reported the racist graffiti he saw to Wheeler. Tr. 2-346:17-347:17." [1] https://casetext.com/case/diaz-v-tesla-inc-7 https://casetext.com/case/diaz-v-tesla-inc-7
hall0ween 2y ago
I've been out of live neural recordings for about 3 years. While this is neat, it's my recollection that this is dated science...with better PR.
murderingmurloc 2y ago
Lex Fridman's interview with Noland and the doctors is a marathon 8.5 hours, but I highly recommend it for a deep dive into the process and results.[1] [1] https://youtu.be/Kbk9BiPhm7o?si=g-MqcUcmS9sZhVdc https://youtu.be/Kbk9BiPhm7o?si=g-MqcUcmS9sZhVdc
- Ajedi32 2y ago
  The interview with Noland at 6:48:59 was particularly interesting to me. Lots of details about what Neuralink is actually like to use in practice.
etchalon 2y ago
I wish I could trust this.
- jedimastert 2y ago
  Honestly? Same. Musk is systematically dismantling essentially every regulatory and enforcement agency that could possibly hold him accountable if these things go sideways, accidentally or otherwise.
- deleted 2y ago
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- SimianSci 2y ago
  Dont. until we have a solution to the problem that is Elon Musk, and potential future Elon Musks, this type of technology can only be a net negative to society.
  - Schiendelman 2y ago
    Henry Ford was a Nazi. Jeff Bezos bought the Washington Post and drove it into the ground. I think basically any of the leaders who brought us the technology we are using today are cults of personality like this, we just forget about the ones that aren't contemporary. I have yet to see us grow without them.
    - psb217 2y ago
      If Henry Ford didn't exist, do you think no one would have tried mass manufacturing? If Jeff Bezos didn't exist, do you think no one would have scaled up an online store? These techno business overlord types occasionally nudge our timeline ahead by a few months, and are rewarded handsomely for it, but they've never produced some fundamental new insight or technology that leaps us forward in ways we wouldn't otherwise achieve.
      - Schiendelman 2y ago
        It doesn't matter what I think - it matters who actually delivers these things. And it's generally these guys.
discordance 2y ago
Between 2018 and 2022 "the company has tested on and killed at least 1,500 animals — over 280 sheep, pigs, and monkeys, as well as mice and rats." [0] 0: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2022/12/11/23500157/neuralink-animal-testing-elon-musk-usda-probe?t https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2022/12/11/23500157/neura...
- zensavona 2y ago
  Being concerned about animal testing seems pretty silly coming from people who likely eat pigs, sheep and other intelligent animals every day, who likely lived in just as bad conditions if not worse their whole lives leading up to them becoming food. I also eat meat, it just seems a bit ironic to me.
  - Veserv 2y ago
    You are ignoring the benefit side of a benefit-harm morality analysis. Eating an animal at least ostensibly has positive value for the people doing so. However, there are plenty of forms of "animal testing" that confer zero positive value. For instance, testing the wrong compound or inserting the wrong implant confers zero benefit. Having improper controls, "testing" nonsensical theories, repeating stale results poorly, inadequate data collection, etc. are just a few ways a test procedure can be totally useless or even actively harmful. This also ignores one of the other aspects of animal testing which is as a dry run or rehearsal for actual application. You do it right in animals so you are practiced at doing it right for when you need to do it right in humans. "Oh yeah, we royally screwed up in every rehearsal, but we will nail it in production." is not an acceptable approach. You look at the care taken during their practiced procedures on less critical subjects to determine if their practiced procedure is adequate for more critical subjects. A process that kills far more test subjects than others or achieves middling results relative to resource expenditure or that treats subjects as disposable for "advancing science" is not a process fit for human subjects. Assuming ingrained cultural process deficiencies will magically disappear when using changing subjects is foolish. These are just some of the reasons why people eating a ridiculous number of animals does not and should not waive our invalidate concerns about animal testing procedure.
wazdra 2y ago
Am I the only one a bit disturbed by this whole communication ? I mean, we all know helping disabled is not the end-game objective of neuralink. And right now, from a very cynical point of view, disabled people constitute a large reservoir of cobayes and free marketing for Neuralink I don’t know how much has been invested in R&D on Neuralink, but I doubt we have ever invested that much money in any other technology to provide autonomy to the disabled. And it is not perfectly clear to me that, for the sole prospect of helping paralysed people, Neuralink is the best way to go. It sure is the one that looks the coolest, but it’s going to be very expensive, hard to fix when something goes wrong, and it is also hard to trust. Those issues do not seem to be avoidable Don’t get me wrong, I admire the huge QoL gain for the three patients. As individuals, they sure benefited from this. Idk if the same is true of the disabled as a social group
- andsoitis 2y ago
  > we all know helping disabled is not the end-game objective of neuralink. Can you tell us more what you surmise we all think is the end-game objective?
  - golol 2y ago
    powerful general BCI, FDVR, cyborg intelligence and so on. Elon Musk clearly stated this many times.
  - isoprophlex 2y ago
    Jensen Huang becoming a sandworm from Dune, only he keeps shitting out mountains of NVIDIA cards instead of spice. Elon Musk and the rest of the technorati using neuralink to upload themselves into said mountain of GPUs to become immortal.
    - Terr_ 2y ago
      Wait... A sandworm with a mountain of GPUs ravaging a country ruined by a Technorati-coup's failed dreams of immortality? The anime movie Vexille (2007) has you covered: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Ti8mjRXsc&t=34 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Ti8mjRXsc&t=34 Technically the worms ("jags") are unintended junk rather than tools of apotheosis, but the overlap is striking.
SimianSci 2y ago
I very violently recoil from any of Musk's ventures these days. Im sure there are some very smart and talented people working at Neuralink. They should go work for someone else as their boss has shown himself to be a revolting person and the kind of leader who seeks to actively harm people who inconvenience him. This kind of behavior is not befitting of a company that will need to cultivate an incredible amount of trust from customers before they buy into the idea of a brain implant.
- MathMonkeyMan 2y ago
  What is the problem with Musk? I know his many shenanigans, but what about his helmanship causes you to violently recoil?
  - phillipcarter 2y ago
    Overt nazi salutes is one, but another is the intentional tinkering-with and partial dismantling of the US Government's system to dispense appropriated funds, and act that is blatantly illegal.
    - steveoscaro 2y ago
      Edit
      - krige 2y ago
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        steveoscaro 2y ago
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        archagon 2y ago
        AfD supporting, white supremacist amplifying dude from a deeply racist family being a closet Nazi is the least surprising thing imaginable.
internet_points 2y ago
Imagine the fun 4chan will have when they find Musk's master keys and commence to 24-7 rickroll some paralyzed person. A Year of Rick Astley (hey it almost rhymes)
floppiplopp 2y ago
If the whole slave simulation with humanoid robots does not work for Elon Musk and his peers, maybe we will see W40K-like servitors, where they take the people the billionaire class deems subhuman and convert them into human drones.
- bilbo0s 2y ago
  I'm thinking in 50 years humans will be so much less capable than bots, that using a human as a servant or a soldier or what have you instead of using a bot would be laughable. Some of us look at AI, and Neuralink, and robot tech and see a point in time and conclude they won't get any better. That's not how any of this has ever worked. They will all get better. The future of non-elites is unknown. But hopefully either the elites will be magnanimous, or non-elites will create new occupations that will at once, be able to create wealth, and not be able to be performed by bots. Not sure what those new occupations will be? But human ingenuity is an incredible thing, especially if the system remains market capitalism based. Because that will mean your rent and food will depend on you coming up with something to do. I think people will think of something. If not? Well, let's just say the future might not hold societies as pleasant for non-elites as the societies of today.
nomilk 2y ago
> Noland suffered a spinal cord injury in a swimming accident and became paralyzed below his shoulders. Noland spent most of his days in bed. His primary digital device was a tablet which he controlled using a mouth-held stylus (mouth stick). The mouth stick not only caused discomfort and fatigue after prolonged use, but it also had to be put in place by a caregiver > He is now able to control a cursor with his thoughts to browse the internet, play games, and continue his educational journey with greater independence. Once reliable and cheap, the tangible difference this tech is going to make to people's lives is pretty wild. Curious to know how accurate the cursor movements and clicks are. For example, here he is playing polytopia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgY70ZWCL1g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgY70ZWCL1g In polytopia, a misclick can be about as frustrating/costly as a mouseslip in chess (when you move a piece to the wrong square by mistake).
- pona-a 2y ago
  We can still see the motion is forced, the cursor takes non-direct paths, actively doges away from targets, requiring active steering to stay put long enough to press them. While there are few misclicks, it feels like a product of active effort more than the inherent accuracy.
renewiltord 2y ago
The videos are remarkable. He moves like a person on a touchpad, rather than a quadriplegic. Incredible technology. The joy it is going to bring to so many is going to be wonderful to see.
jonjon16 2y ago
Here's a post about an amazing piece of technology that is being created for helping people in dire conditions and the only thing being discussed in here is how much of a bad person is the owner of the company researching said technology. Now, I'm not a US citizen so I have way less stakes in that kind of discussion but I have to say, I find it disgusting how one of my favorite online forum have become a den for political activists.
- kvdveer 2y ago
  It's hard to separate politics from topics like these, as the current politics have very far reaching impact on almost aspects of life. For example, this article discusses medical implants. Safety of those is very important. When the owner of the company is actively dismantling oversight that ensures safety, this directly impacts whether we can trust this product. I agree that HN should be mostly politically neutral, and for the most part it is. For topics involving Musk, however, one simply cannot ignore their problematic attitude towards anything that might inconvenience them.
- NitpickLawyer 2y ago
  Yeah, reddit is heavily leaking in this thread. The Internet as a whole has become slowly more political over the past decade, and that's to be expected. But this last cycle has been utterly unbearable for non americans. The identity politics and the obsession of every person having to be either a super-hero or a villain is tiring. Why can't people just discuss the tech?
- contagiousflow 2y ago
  Don't you think the business operators, along with their motives and influence, should be a part of the discussions on technology?
- dmbche 2y ago
  I'm not seeing discussion on how much of a bad person that guy is but in how he's demonstrated recklessness and a disrespect for oversight, which are alarming when discussing medical devices - especially such as this specific one. This is a piece of marketing from a private company. It is a good thing that people raise criticism missing from it.
yapyap 2y ago
Glad to see neuralink didn’t give up on their sensationalism. “telepathy” gtfo, they’re trying to give their brainchips marketing hype synonyms like how Altman calls ChatGPT AI when really, it’s not artificial intelligence, it’s just ML. But ML sounds a whole lot less exciting in the marketing pitch.
- nickvec 2y ago
  ML is a subset of AI.
  - red-iron-pine 2y ago
    I mean a set of if/else chains is, in the broadest sense, AI but it's not the AI that Altman is selling, ditto for ML
- Terr_ 2y ago
  "But sometime next^8 year, the patients will be Fully Self Driving."
betimsl 2y ago
Naming it Telepathy is plain wrong.
jeff_vader 2y ago
Isn't the main showstopper issue to solve for brain implants is scarring response or something similar? That is when body responds to the implant and surrounds electrodes with some sort of tissue reducing its effectiveness. Has Neuralink made any advancements in that area?
- InDubioProRubio 2y ago
  Yes, they cloned some minions to downvote biologic reality.. Posted the same questions. Got nil response. If they had a break through, you could see it at the patent search.
- tim333 2y ago
  They can remap the electrodes to find ones that work. Also the thing seems relatively easy to replace and brain implants go. It's a bit early to say how much use they'll get.
kragen 2y ago
I wonder how hard it would be for an LLM interpreting the neural signals to perform a convincing simulation of speaking for the paralyzed person while doing things they don't actually want, or after they've suffered a loss of mental function that leaves them not really wanting anything. Like the autism scandals surrounding Facilitated Communication. Not that I think that's what is going on currently. This Greg Egan short story is a useful intuition pump about the possibilities. Not recommended for children. Or before trying to sleep. https://philosophy.williams.edu/files/Egan-Learning-to-Be-Me.pdf https://philosophy.williams.edu/files/Egan-Learning-to-Be-Me... It would be great if instead of "a clinical trial to demonstrate that the Link is safe and useful" we could have a clinical trial to determine whether or not it is.
- twalla 2y ago
  Highly recommend Diaspora by Greg Egan as well.
- janetmissed 2y ago
  Thank you for sharing this short story. I read it with my coffee and really enjoyed it, turns out existential dread goes well with the first hit of caffeine of the day. You made my morning :)
  - kragen 2y ago
    You're very welcome!
- sdwr 2y ago
  I liked the line > My parents were machines. My parents were gods. It was nothing special. I hated them. and how the story mixes adolescence and feeling special with philosophical ramifications (hinting that focusing on the philosophical ramifications is just an adolescent attempt at feeling special?) The narrator falls into the same trap at the end, assuming that he is the 1-in-a-million exception. He doesn't realize that everyone has the same experience, they just process it in a healthier way. AI Catcher in the Rye.
InDubioProRubio 2y ago
So - what about implant scar tissue? How do they avoid it? How do they reintegrate connections if the implant has to move on? I dont want sob-stories, i want links to patents about avoiding inflamation.
simianparrot 2y ago
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- deleted 2y ago
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- jisnsm 2y ago
  “Eschew flamebait, unless it’s more of the usual, trite progressive talking points”
- Ajedi32 2y ago
  Agreed. I think it might be prudent to just start downvoting comments about Elon Musk's politics on threads that are just about his companies and have no direct connection to him personally.
- chasing 2y ago
  The founder of a health tech company is currently helming a likely-illegal effort to “delete” consumer safety regulations and government-provided health services that will directly lead to possibly hundreds of thousands of deaths. Given that trust and regulation are critical parts of providing healthcare, it seems pretty relevant.
  - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
    The founder has also demonstrated he doesn't believe in government oversight, not have any empathy for disabled people dependant on social services. From it's leadership this is not a benevolent corporation whose goal is to help disabled people.
- kjrfghslkdjfl 2y ago
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- deleted 2y ago
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- some_random 2y ago
clarionbell 2y ago
Musk is a great example of how to ruin ones legacy. At this point, no matter what he does, how his companies perform, or even if this implant gives people back control of their bodies. Nothing will rid his work of the taint. It's tragic in a way. If he stuck to same playbook as practiced by many other early tech billionaires, spending his life on investing, philanthropy, himself and family, the world would probably not have things like common reusable rockets, widespread EV adoption or massive satellite constellations. His willingness to pour money, and ability get others to pour their money, into various extremely risky ventures, is what made all of that possible. Eventually it would happen anyway, but probably much later. But I suspect, that very same personality traits that enabled him to do this, are responsible for his current state. Over the years he has lost his self control, to the point that he looks almost childish. Handful of years ago, he opposed people he now works with. He's now undermining his own companies, with his actions. Even people like Murdoch or Thiel look better in comparison. Not because of what they do, but because they are less visible. Everything he has ever done, will now be viewed in much worse light. His reputation, sabotaged by the only person who could accomplish that feat. Himself.
- stackedinserter 2y ago
  > Everything he has ever done, will now be viewed in much worse light. Viewed by whom? By you and a bunch of other neurotics that consumed too much CNN?
  - hcurtiss 2y ago
    Agreed. The Musk invective on HN is just wild.
  - esotericimpl 2y ago
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vessenes 2y ago
Quick summary of the comments: * Everyone hates Elon * For most this is enough to hate neuralink. * 15ish+% think that embedding stuff in your brain from any company is a bad idea(TM) * 5-ish% think this is not worth working on at all, or not worth the animal / human research costs * In the know folks point out that tech like this has been around for roughly 10 years, but research hasn’t progressed past the point where brain injury isn’t a major risk -> this is too early I don’t read anything here about human autonomy; each of the guys written about have my utmost respect for not just committing suicide — they must be incredibly tough, persistent and positive humans, full stop. The idea that they can’t or shouldn’t be able to weigh the risks and benefits of tech like this feels infantilizing, in the worst way - infantilizing from people who have full mobility. At any rate, I applaud a company trying to help people like this, EVEN IF their long term goal is an ad-supported BCI (although TBH Elon’s always had significantly better revenue ideas than ads), and I applaud the first few folks willing to risk their health to get access to a better life, and help people down the line from them.
Rubinero 2y ago
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bgnn 2y ago
Why brain implants? Did we exhaust cheaper human/machine interfaces, like voice control?
- thrwthsnw 2y ago
  Listen to an interview with Noland to find out why. Unfortunately the patient with ALS can’t give an interview because he can no longer speak.
esbranson 2y ago
UFO abductees report telepathy regularly, as the default mode. UFO witnesses often report they "feel" something odd, that the UFO somehow "sees" them. And pretty much every story is both the same and extremely odd. There have been claims by those in the field implicating an "over-connection of neurons between the head of the caudate and the putamen".

194 points by julianh65 2y ago

Not mentioned at all is the failure rate, which back in May was reported by Ars to be 85% with the first patient, Noland. [1] [1] https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/05/neuralink-to-implant-2nd-human-with-brain-chip-as-75-of-threads-retract-in-1st/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/05/neuralink-to-implant...

OsrsNeedsf2P 2y ago
This is 85% of the threads in the device failed, yet it was allegedly mitigated after a software update, and usage of Neurolink continued to climb for the patient, suggesting the device is still functional
- InDubioProRubio 2y ago
  What about the scar tissue those implants generate? How did they avoid that?

kadushka 2y ago

I’m curious why for Noland and Alex the implant usage dropped in the fourth month?

_--__--__ 2y ago
In both cases it looks more like a usage spike in the third month and then back to a pattern of roughly linear growth. Not sure if those spikes were related to updates to the neuralink itself or they just got really into a game/project/etc

walrus01 2y ago

I am extremely unlikely to ever allow anything even vaguely related to Elon Musk to implant something in my brain, or even to wear as completely noninvasive "through the skin" helmet or headband-like sensing device. Nevermind something with him as a founder.

ivraatiems 2y ago
If it was that or be paralyzed for the rest of your life, would you at least consider it? I don't like Musk and I find Neuralink spooky in terms of their overall goals, but it's hard to deny how much this invention helps people.
- ben_w 2y ago
  Given the security track record of software in general, not even specifically those of Musk's companies but more broadly zero-days in all the major platforms, I would worry about a scenario half way between the plot of the film Upgrade and the long-standing trope of using hypnosis to turn someone into an unwitting assassin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upgrade_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upgrade_(film)
  - tmnvdb 2y ago
    It seems easy to worry about somewhat far-fetched scenarios like this when one is not paralyzed and thus not making a trade-off between risks and a fully paralyzed life.
    - ben_w 2y ago
      The tech itself is far-fetched; that hackers exploit vulnerabilities in every system is not, rather it is so common you can measure attempts in Herz.
      - tmnvdb 2y ago
        You have again ignored the trade-off in your word-play.
        computerthings 2y ago
        If it would make the greed and exploitation that form people like Musk go away without a trace and forever, I'd happily to be paralyzed for the rest of my life. Nobody would even have to know and thank me for it, as long as I knew... I'd watch humanity flourish on TV and cry tears of happiness. Even the best version of my best life is still just 1 life.

jdoe1337halo 2y ago

As much as I hate Musk, this brings a tear to my eyes seeing these disabled people regain autonomy and feel like a person again.

the_optimist 2y ago
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- joseppudev 2y ago
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- walrus01 2y ago
  At this point it would be much less effort to make a short list of the unquestionably good things he has done or is well known for, rather than attempting to list all of the despicable things he is recently associated with.
  - cubefox 2y ago
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    - Veserv 2y ago
      Well for one we can look to Diaz v. Tesla [1] where Tesla was found guilty of pervasive racism at the Tesla Fremont Factory in California: Pervasive usage of racial slurs by management: "Robert Hurtado, a supervisor at Tesla, called Diaz the N-word over 30 times, including by saying "[N-word], hurry up," "[N-words] are lazy," and "I wish I can get all you [N-words] fired." Tr. 3:604:23-606:8. Ramon Martinez, another Tesla supervisor, called Diaz the N-word over thirty times, said "I hate you, [N-word]," and told him "to go back to Africa." Tr. 3-603:11-604:20. Diaz's supervisor, Tamotsu "Tom" Kawasaki, testified that Martinez often used the words "mayate" and "chongo," both racial slurs in Spanish. Tr. 2-281:9-12." Burying complaints of proven racism and reprimanding the person bringing the complaint of racism: "Diaz testified that at one point, Martinez threatened to physically attack him at work and yelled at him, "You [N-words] aren't S-H-I-T." Tr. 3-610:2-612:7. Diaz complained to a supervisor, Ed Romero, and asked him to check the surveillance cameras, though Diaz's subsequent email complaint did not specifically mention racial insults. Tr. 3-612:8-614:23; see also Tr. 3-546:25-548:2 (Romero confirming this was recounted in an email). Tesla did not follow up, show Diaz the video, or interview witnesses after that event. Tr. 3-546:25-548:2, 612:8-614:23. Jackson testified that he interviewed Diaz and Martinez after the incident but did not interview the eyewitness, Rothaj Foster, because he was told by his boss to stop the investigation before it was complete. Tr. 2-387:10-390:18, 2-394:24-395:11. Jackson said he had "[v]ery little" control over how he investigated complaints. Tr. 2-396:8-397:12. Jackie Delgado Smith, a Human Resources representative, testified that Tesla HR was never told of the incident. Tr. 5-954:15-955:6. Subsequently, Diaz and Martinez were both given verbal warnings. Tr. 2-395:21-396:7. Martinez still works at Tesla. Tr. 3-571:11." Regular presence of objectively racist symbols in workplace facilities: "In addition to verbal harassment, Diaz encountered physical symbols of racism and hostility throughout his time at Tesla. On his second day at work, he saw racist graffiti in the bathroom, and continued to see the N-word and swastikas in bathrooms throughout the rest of his employment. Tr. 3-623:1-8. Another Black employee and later supervisor, Michael Wheeler, testified that he regularly saw racist graffiti, including the N-word and swastikas, and that Diaz reported the racist graffiti he saw to Wheeler. Tr. 2-346:17-347:17." [1] https://casetext.com/case/diaz-v-tesla-inc-7 https://casetext.com/case/diaz-v-tesla-inc-7

hall0ween 2y ago

I've been out of live neural recordings for about 3 years. While this is neat, it's my recollection that this is dated science...with better PR.

murderingmurloc 2y ago

Lex Fridman's interview with Noland and the doctors is a marathon 8.5 hours, but I highly recommend it for a deep dive into the process and results.[1] [1] https://youtu.be/Kbk9BiPhm7o?si=g-MqcUcmS9sZhVdc https://youtu.be/Kbk9BiPhm7o?si=g-MqcUcmS9sZhVdc

Ajedi32 2y ago
The interview with Noland at 6:48:59 was particularly interesting to me. Lots of details about what Neuralink is actually like to use in practice.

etchalon 2y ago

I wish I could trust this.

jedimastert 2y ago
Honestly? Same. Musk is systematically dismantling essentially every regulatory and enforcement agency that could possibly hold him accountable if these things go sideways, accidentally or otherwise.
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SimianSci 2y ago
Dont. until we have a solution to the problem that is Elon Musk, and potential future Elon Musks, this type of technology can only be a net negative to society.
- Schiendelman 2y ago
  Henry Ford was a Nazi. Jeff Bezos bought the Washington Post and drove it into the ground. I think basically any of the leaders who brought us the technology we are using today are cults of personality like this, we just forget about the ones that aren't contemporary. I have yet to see us grow without them.
  - psb217 2y ago
    If Henry Ford didn't exist, do you think no one would have tried mass manufacturing? If Jeff Bezos didn't exist, do you think no one would have scaled up an online store? These techno business overlord types occasionally nudge our timeline ahead by a few months, and are rewarded handsomely for it, but they've never produced some fundamental new insight or technology that leaps us forward in ways we wouldn't otherwise achieve.
    - Schiendelman 2y ago
      It doesn't matter what I think - it matters who actually delivers these things. And it's generally these guys.

discordance 2y ago

Between 2018 and 2022 "the company has tested on and killed at least 1,500 animals — over 280 sheep, pigs, and monkeys, as well as mice and rats." [0] 0: https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2022/12/11/23500157/neuralink-animal-testing-elon-musk-usda-probe?t https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2022/12/11/23500157/neura...

zensavona 2y ago
Being concerned about animal testing seems pretty silly coming from people who likely eat pigs, sheep and other intelligent animals every day, who likely lived in just as bad conditions if not worse their whole lives leading up to them becoming food. I also eat meat, it just seems a bit ironic to me.
- Veserv 2y ago
  You are ignoring the benefit side of a benefit-harm morality analysis. Eating an animal at least ostensibly has positive value for the people doing so. However, there are plenty of forms of "animal testing" that confer zero positive value. For instance, testing the wrong compound or inserting the wrong implant confers zero benefit. Having improper controls, "testing" nonsensical theories, repeating stale results poorly, inadequate data collection, etc. are just a few ways a test procedure can be totally useless or even actively harmful. This also ignores one of the other aspects of animal testing which is as a dry run or rehearsal for actual application. You do it right in animals so you are practiced at doing it right for when you need to do it right in humans. "Oh yeah, we royally screwed up in every rehearsal, but we will nail it in production." is not an acceptable approach. You look at the care taken during their practiced procedures on less critical subjects to determine if their practiced procedure is adequate for more critical subjects. A process that kills far more test subjects than others or achieves middling results relative to resource expenditure or that treats subjects as disposable for "advancing science" is not a process fit for human subjects. Assuming ingrained cultural process deficiencies will magically disappear when using changing subjects is foolish. These are just some of the reasons why people eating a ridiculous number of animals does not and should not waive our invalidate concerns about animal testing procedure.

wazdra 2y ago

Am I the only one a bit disturbed by this whole communication ? I mean, we all know helping disabled is not the end-game objective of neuralink. And right now, from a very cynical point of view, disabled people constitute a large reservoir of cobayes and free marketing for Neuralink I don’t know how much has been invested in R&D on Neuralink, but I doubt we have ever invested that much money in any other technology to provide autonomy to the disabled. And it is not perfectly clear to me that, for the sole prospect of helping paralysed people, Neuralink is the best way to go. It sure is the one that looks the coolest, but it’s going to be very expensive, hard to fix when something goes wrong, and it is also hard to trust. Those issues do not seem to be avoidable Don’t get me wrong, I admire the huge QoL gain for the three patients. As individuals, they sure benefited from this. Idk if the same is true of the disabled as a social group

andsoitis 2y ago
> we all know helping disabled is not the end-game objective of neuralink. Can you tell us more what you surmise we all think is the end-game objective?
- golol 2y ago
  powerful general BCI, FDVR, cyborg intelligence and so on. Elon Musk clearly stated this many times.
- isoprophlex 2y ago
  Jensen Huang becoming a sandworm from Dune, only he keeps shitting out mountains of NVIDIA cards instead of spice. Elon Musk and the rest of the technorati using neuralink to upload themselves into said mountain of GPUs to become immortal.
  - Terr_ 2y ago
    Wait... A sandworm with a mountain of GPUs ravaging a country ruined by a Technorati-coup's failed dreams of immortality? The anime movie Vexille (2007) has you covered: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Ti8mjRXsc&t=34 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9Ti8mjRXsc&t=34 Technically the worms ("jags") are unintended junk rather than tools of apotheosis, but the overlap is striking.

SimianSci 2y ago

I very violently recoil from any of Musk's ventures these days. Im sure there are some very smart and talented people working at Neuralink. They should go work for someone else as their boss has shown himself to be a revolting person and the kind of leader who seeks to actively harm people who inconvenience him. This kind of behavior is not befitting of a company that will need to cultivate an incredible amount of trust from customers before they buy into the idea of a brain implant.

MathMonkeyMan 2y ago
What is the problem with Musk? I know his many shenanigans, but what about his helmanship causes you to violently recoil?
- phillipcarter 2y ago
  Overt nazi salutes is one, but another is the intentional tinkering-with and partial dismantling of the US Government's system to dispense appropriated funds, and act that is blatantly illegal.
  - steveoscaro 2y ago
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    - krige 2y ago
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      - steveoscaro 2y ago
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        archagon 2y ago
        AfD supporting, white supremacist amplifying dude from a deeply racist family being a closet Nazi is the least surprising thing imaginable.

internet_points 2y ago

Imagine the fun 4chan will have when they find Musk's master keys and commence to 24-7 rickroll some paralyzed person. A Year of Rick Astley (hey it almost rhymes)

floppiplopp 2y ago

If the whole slave simulation with humanoid robots does not work for Elon Musk and his peers, maybe we will see W40K-like servitors, where they take the people the billionaire class deems subhuman and convert them into human drones.

bilbo0s 2y ago
I'm thinking in 50 years humans will be so much less capable than bots, that using a human as a servant or a soldier or what have you instead of using a bot would be laughable. Some of us look at AI, and Neuralink, and robot tech and see a point in time and conclude they won't get any better. That's not how any of this has ever worked. They will all get better. The future of non-elites is unknown. But hopefully either the elites will be magnanimous, or non-elites will create new occupations that will at once, be able to create wealth, and not be able to be performed by bots. Not sure what those new occupations will be? But human ingenuity is an incredible thing, especially if the system remains market capitalism based. Because that will mean your rent and food will depend on you coming up with something to do. I think people will think of something. If not? Well, let's just say the future might not hold societies as pleasant for non-elites as the societies of today.

nomilk 2y ago

> Noland suffered a spinal cord injury in a swimming accident and became paralyzed below his shoulders. Noland spent most of his days in bed. His primary digital device was a tablet which he controlled using a mouth-held stylus (mouth stick). The mouth stick not only caused discomfort and fatigue after prolonged use, but it also had to be put in place by a caregiver > He is now able to control a cursor with his thoughts to browse the internet, play games, and continue his educational journey with greater independence. Once reliable and cheap, the tangible difference this tech is going to make to people's lives is pretty wild. Curious to know how accurate the cursor movements and clicks are. For example, here he is playing polytopia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgY70ZWCL1g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgY70ZWCL1g In polytopia, a misclick can be about as frustrating/costly as a mouseslip in chess (when you move a piece to the wrong square by mistake).

pona-a 2y ago
We can still see the motion is forced, the cursor takes non-direct paths, actively doges away from targets, requiring active steering to stay put long enough to press them. While there are few misclicks, it feels like a product of active effort more than the inherent accuracy.

renewiltord 2y ago

The videos are remarkable. He moves like a person on a touchpad, rather than a quadriplegic. Incredible technology. The joy it is going to bring to so many is going to be wonderful to see.

jonjon16 2y ago

Here's a post about an amazing piece of technology that is being created for helping people in dire conditions and the only thing being discussed in here is how much of a bad person is the owner of the company researching said technology. Now, I'm not a US citizen so I have way less stakes in that kind of discussion but I have to say, I find it disgusting how one of my favorite online forum have become a den for political activists.

kvdveer 2y ago
It's hard to separate politics from topics like these, as the current politics have very far reaching impact on almost aspects of life. For example, this article discusses medical implants. Safety of those is very important. When the owner of the company is actively dismantling oversight that ensures safety, this directly impacts whether we can trust this product. I agree that HN should be mostly politically neutral, and for the most part it is. For topics involving Musk, however, one simply cannot ignore their problematic attitude towards anything that might inconvenience them.
NitpickLawyer 2y ago
Yeah, reddit is heavily leaking in this thread. The Internet as a whole has become slowly more political over the past decade, and that's to be expected. But this last cycle has been utterly unbearable for non americans. The identity politics and the obsession of every person having to be either a super-hero or a villain is tiring. Why can't people just discuss the tech?
contagiousflow 2y ago
Don't you think the business operators, along with their motives and influence, should be a part of the discussions on technology?
dmbche 2y ago
I'm not seeing discussion on how much of a bad person that guy is but in how he's demonstrated recklessness and a disrespect for oversight, which are alarming when discussing medical devices - especially such as this specific one. This is a piece of marketing from a private company. It is a good thing that people raise criticism missing from it.

yapyap 2y ago

Glad to see neuralink didn’t give up on their sensationalism. “telepathy” gtfo, they’re trying to give their brainchips marketing hype synonyms like how Altman calls ChatGPT AI when really, it’s not artificial intelligence, it’s just ML. But ML sounds a whole lot less exciting in the marketing pitch.

nickvec 2y ago
ML is a subset of AI.
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  I mean a set of if/else chains is, in the broadest sense, AI but it's not the AI that Altman is selling, ditto for ML
Terr_ 2y ago
"But sometime next^8 year, the patients will be Fully Self Driving."

betimsl 2y ago

Naming it Telepathy is plain wrong.

jeff_vader 2y ago

Isn't the main showstopper issue to solve for brain implants is scarring response or something similar? That is when body responds to the implant and surrounds electrodes with some sort of tissue reducing its effectiveness. Has Neuralink made any advancements in that area?

InDubioProRubio 2y ago
Yes, they cloned some minions to downvote biologic reality.. Posted the same questions. Got nil response. If they had a break through, you could see it at the patent search.
tim333 2y ago
They can remap the electrodes to find ones that work. Also the thing seems relatively easy to replace and brain implants go. It's a bit early to say how much use they'll get.

kragen 2y ago

I wonder how hard it would be for an LLM interpreting the neural signals to perform a convincing simulation of speaking for the paralyzed person while doing things they don't actually want, or after they've suffered a loss of mental function that leaves them not really wanting anything. Like the autism scandals surrounding Facilitated Communication. Not that I think that's what is going on currently. This Greg Egan short story is a useful intuition pump about the possibilities. Not recommended for children. Or before trying to sleep. https://philosophy.williams.edu/files/Egan-Learning-to-Be-Me.pdf https://philosophy.williams.edu/files/Egan-Learning-to-Be-Me... It would be great if instead of "a clinical trial to demonstrate that the Link is safe and useful" we could have a clinical trial to determine whether or not it is.

twalla 2y ago
Highly recommend Diaspora by Greg Egan as well.
janetmissed 2y ago
Thank you for sharing this short story. I read it with my coffee and really enjoyed it, turns out existential dread goes well with the first hit of caffeine of the day. You made my morning :)
- kragen 2y ago
  You're very welcome!
sdwr 2y ago
I liked the line > My parents were machines. My parents were gods. It was nothing special. I hated them. and how the story mixes adolescence and feeling special with philosophical ramifications (hinting that focusing on the philosophical ramifications is just an adolescent attempt at feeling special?) The narrator falls into the same trap at the end, assuming that he is the 1-in-a-million exception. He doesn't realize that everyone has the same experience, they just process it in a healthier way. AI Catcher in the Rye.

InDubioProRubio 2y ago

So - what about implant scar tissue? How do they avoid it? How do they reintegrate connections if the implant has to move on? I dont want sob-stories, i want links to patents about avoiding inflamation.

simianparrot 2y ago

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deleted 2y ago
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jisnsm 2y ago
“Eschew flamebait, unless it’s more of the usual, trite progressive talking points”
Ajedi32 2y ago
Agreed. I think it might be prudent to just start downvoting comments about Elon Musk's politics on threads that are just about his companies and have no direct connection to him personally.
chasing 2y ago
The founder of a health tech company is currently helming a likely-illegal effort to “delete” consumer safety regulations and government-provided health services that will directly lead to possibly hundreds of thousands of deaths. Given that trust and regulation are critical parts of providing healthcare, it seems pretty relevant.
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  The founder has also demonstrated he doesn't believe in government oversight, not have any empathy for disabled people dependant on social services. From it's leadership this is not a benevolent corporation whose goal is to help disabled people.
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clarionbell 2y ago

Musk is a great example of how to ruin ones legacy. At this point, no matter what he does, how his companies perform, or even if this implant gives people back control of their bodies. Nothing will rid his work of the taint. It's tragic in a way. If he stuck to same playbook as practiced by many other early tech billionaires, spending his life on investing, philanthropy, himself and family, the world would probably not have things like common reusable rockets, widespread EV adoption or massive satellite constellations. His willingness to pour money, and ability get others to pour their money, into various extremely risky ventures, is what made all of that possible. Eventually it would happen anyway, but probably much later. But I suspect, that very same personality traits that enabled him to do this, are responsible for his current state. Over the years he has lost his self control, to the point that he looks almost childish. Handful of years ago, he opposed people he now works with. He's now undermining his own companies, with his actions. Even people like Murdoch or Thiel look better in comparison. Not because of what they do, but because they are less visible. Everything he has ever done, will now be viewed in much worse light. His reputation, sabotaged by the only person who could accomplish that feat. Himself.

stackedinserter 2y ago
> Everything he has ever done, will now be viewed in much worse light. Viewed by whom? By you and a bunch of other neurotics that consumed too much CNN?
- hcurtiss 2y ago
  Agreed. The Musk invective on HN is just wild.
- esotericimpl 2y ago
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vessenes 2y ago

Quick summary of the comments: * Everyone hates Elon * For most this is enough to hate neuralink. * 15ish+% think that embedding stuff in your brain from any company is a bad idea(TM) * 5-ish% think this is not worth working on at all, or not worth the animal / human research costs * In the know folks point out that tech like this has been around for roughly 10 years, but research hasn’t progressed past the point where brain injury isn’t a major risk -> this is too early I don’t read anything here about human autonomy; each of the guys written about have my utmost respect for not just committing suicide — they must be incredibly tough, persistent and positive humans, full stop. The idea that they can’t or shouldn’t be able to weigh the risks and benefits of tech like this feels infantilizing, in the worst way - infantilizing from people who have full mobility. At any rate, I applaud a company trying to help people like this, EVEN IF their long term goal is an ad-supported BCI (although TBH Elon’s always had significantly better revenue ideas than ads), and I applaud the first few folks willing to risk their health to get access to a better life, and help people down the line from them.

Rubinero 2y ago

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bgnn 2y ago

Why brain implants? Did we exhaust cheaper human/machine interfaces, like voice control?

thrwthsnw 2y ago
Listen to an interview with Noland to find out why. Unfortunately the patient with ALS can’t give an interview because he can no longer speak.

esbranson 2y ago

UFO abductees report telepathy regularly, as the default mode. UFO witnesses often report they "feel" something odd, that the UFO somehow "sees" them. And pretty much every story is both the same and extremely odd. There have been claims by those in the field implicating an "over-connection of neurons between the head of the caudate and the putamen".