25 ms·

The subtle art of designing physical controls for cars

• mhb 2y ago
  1. Cars should have physical controls. 2. The smart knob is a clever device. 3? Smart knob somehow addresses cars no longer having physical controls.
  • CRConrad 2y ago
    2. The smart knob is a physical control. So 1 + 2 = 3. HTH!
    • mhb 2y ago
      Thanks for the insight, but a multi-function physical control that requires looking at to know what mode it's in doesn't seem like the panacea to which TFA seems to be alluding.
• xp84 2y ago
  I applaud the author for putting thought into how to design digital controls, in contrast to the "just put whatever garbage on a touch screen" strategy most carmakers do today. However, I still question the benefit of this complex, modal control (you have to press a single knob to "cycle between" multiple modes). My ancient, 2016 car features three knobs. This luxury allows me to, without looking, adjust any of three settings (temp, fan, air location), as well as a button which does each seat heater, without any "check what mode it's in, tap, look at the tiny screen, tap again if necessary" step. True, in this trim, my car does not have a thermostat mode, which in theory is useful, but it is so trivial to modulate the temperature based on "do I feel cold, hot or comfortable right now" and reaching over to twist one of the controls anyway, and even in the other car I have which has this mode, I frequently need to adjust things anyway, except in that car some of the functions require multiple mode changes on the touch screen and looking away from the road.
  • WildRyc 2y ago
    The author is pretty clear that having more than two modes diminishes the usefulness of the interface. Three modes was complex enough that he redesigned it down. I've changed the channel tuner when I've reached for the volume knob. If the haptic feedback between the two is clearly different, that will help, no?
    • layer8 2y ago
      Controls that require a feedback loop have more cognitive overhead than controls you can just use “blindly” (this includes not having to check for haptic feedback to test what mode it’s in) and from pure muscle memory. For example, you learn that your preferred volume when driving on a highway is at (say) the two o’clock position, and with time you’ll blindly turn the knob to that position without even consciously thinking about it. If, on the other hand, you “know” that the knob could be in a wrong mode, you’ll tend to hesitate when operating it because of that anticipation, having to check back whether the knob is indeed in the correct mode.
      • Animats 2y ago
        Right. This "smart" knob is symmetrical, with no pointer that you can feel before turning the knob. So it's hard to use without looking. This is inferior to a simple mechanical knob.
        • CRConrad 2y ago
          It's not infinitely rotatable, though, like some knobs are; TFA mentioned a 270° rotation range. So a pointer “beak” (or some other haptically recognisable asymmetry) should be easy to add.
          • Animats 2y ago
            It's infinitely rotatable unless the software tells the motor to push back. The encoder appears to be relative, rather than absolute, so the physical positioning at power-up is unknown. Thus, the physical knob can't have a physical pointer with consistent behavior. I have an LG washing machine with a knob like that. After power up, you have to turn it one notch before it lights up to indicate the current position, which is the default Normal cycle. So the knob has to be symmetrical, with no tactile pointer.
• scottbez1 2y ago
  Oh, hi, creator of the SmartKnob (mentioned in the article) here - I'm continually blown away by how much UX discussion it has generated over the years! One of the things I regret a bit about the prototype and demo I originally shared is that I used a press action and the screen as a modal/menu interface. The screen makes for a snazzy demo video, and works great for interfaces where you have the user's full attention (like a smart home control panel) but I think there's a lot more potential for just the haptics, paired with other dedicated buttons to switch to specific (i.e. not a menu of) modes, like this later demo I built using the haptic feedback for a video timeline jog tool: https://youtu.be/J9192DfZplk https://youtu.be/J9192DfZplk
  • bigstrat2003 2y ago
    The smart knob you made is genuinely one of the best hardware creations I have ever seen. I only wish that I was creative enough to think up good uses for it so that I could put it to work, lol.
    • scottbez1 2y ago
      Haha, I've built at least 5 of them and my problem is that I enjoy the hardware/design portion as a hobby, but writing the software to put them to use feels too much like my day job, so I haven't actually done anything too useful yet...
      • robocat 2y ago
        Have you worked in electronics design? Your knowledge seems practical and fairly deep to me. I loved electronics so I got an electronics degree and I ended up with an irrational antipathy towards electronics since then. Got a software job instead which turned out to be a great career (compared with most of the electronics guys I know).
      • usmanmehmood55 2y ago
        I was just thinking about this while checking out the Seedlabs page. Because now it is somewhat commercially available, and a lot of people (including myself) that previously weren't thinking of having this just because of the hasstle of assembling it themselves, can now consider buying a pre-made unit and play around with it. I was thinking that it'd be REALLY GREAT if there was an easy way of making "apps" for this smart knob. Kind of like watchfaces or pebble apps. Anything to make it easier for people to play around with this. Maybe a lightweight SDK or something. I'd be more than happy to contribute to such a thing, but doing this alone is too daunting of a task. Side note, the 245 EUR price by Seedlabs is equally daunting :(
• conferza 2y ago
  That's pretty cool! Thanks for sharing.
• modzu 2y ago
  should read, "the lost art of designing physical controls..."
• uberdru 2y ago
  This is a solved problem. My 2009 4Runner has the perfect temp control. I couldn't tell you how it works. But my hand knows. Which is perfect tool design.
• bigstrat2003 2y ago
  Car manufacturers, please hire this guy to build your interfaces. He gets it. Touch screens must not be used for controls you are going to frequently operate while driving the car, it's maximum unsafe.
  • the_snooze 2y ago
    I feel like car touch screens are designed like those 3D hologram interfaces in Minority Report: they look really cool and you want them, but they're entirely impractical in day-to-day operation. If car manufacturers are optimizing for cars looking cool in the dealership, whiz-bang touchscreens win over boring physical controls.
  • groby_b 2y ago
    I wish that was the unsafest thing car manufacturers did. Jeep, for example, has just discovered a predilection for random full-screen alerts with a blaring alarm sound, if, for example, they magically inferred there's a tow-truck somewhere. (There's about a 50% chance you'll encounter a tow truck in the next 10 minutes, at best) This is great if, say, you're three hours into a night drive, all alone on the road, and suddenly ALARM THE WORLD IS ENDING. I actively hate car manufacturers. They should not be allowed to use touch screens. Even if they could be useful - they have repeatedly proven they are too stupid to use them well.
    • cookie_monsta 2y ago
      Why a tow truck?
      • groby_b 2y ago
        I literally do not know. I assume it is because tow trucks are large, and will be slow moving when they merge/tow. I can totally imagine the meeting that took that argument and lead to that feature. But I'm fairly certain that if you're so distracted you don't see the giant tow truck, a message on your entertainment screen isn't going to help.
  • 2y ago
• _tariky 2y ago
  My Skoda Superb(2015) have very similar knobs for controlling temperature and when pressed it turns on seat heater. From the first time I used it. It felt so natural and intuitive to use. But unfortunately touch screen infotainment system is pure garbage.
• Animats 2y ago
  Mandatory XKCD.[1] [1] https://xkcd.com/2704/ https://xkcd.com/2704/
• 51Cards 2y ago
  Kudos for to the author for the work put into this and the intelligence functions are interesting. I do have a couple concerns though. A. Trying to design down to two knobs makes each knob multi-modal. This removes a lot of muscle memory benefits requiring a glance at a screen, a small screen that is now partially covered by your hand while operating the knob. Haptic feedback might be able to help you know what mode you're in without looking but now you have a lot more to memorize to use it while keeping your eyes on the road which may begin to defeat the simplicity benefits. B. Haptic feedback... will this work with gloves on? (will you feel it, will it sense your touch) A lot of manual systems now have 3 knobs, not much more than the 2 presented here, which will always do the same thing each time you reach for them. My concern would be how long it would take the user to be familar with the interface without looking. One quick thought, I would be inclined to think that feedback through a large screen not covered by your fingers might have advantages. It's a great study on UI consistancy however, esp around how to program the detents, etc.
  • crote 2y ago
    I think the multi-modal stuff can be mostly fixed by dedicated mode selection buttons, which can be blindly pressed to enter a specific mode. The logical option would be to place them around the dial like a pie chart, as that would be trivial to find without looking. Place those buttons underneath the dial instead and you can use the display as a clear mode indicator as well, without the hand obscuring it. You could also put a copy of the display somewhere in the driver's HUD. It'd still draw some attention, but having it for example temporarily fill up the center of the speed dial (perhaps in some way only when the driver is touching it?) would be a lot less distractive than having to look all the way over on the infotainment panel. As to B: it's a physical knob, with a motor pushing against your turning force. It'll have zero trouble with gloves.
    • 51Cards 2y ago
      Agreed to rotating the knob on the second point... but it looks like a touch screen to change modes? Or is it a physical push button under the knob? I may have been unclear on how the knob functions.
• pmontra 2y ago
  A very tangential note about this: > Much like a door handle should communicate whether to pull or push a door, For many common doors it's not the handle, it's the frame. Standing on one side of the frame we see that the door is free and we can pull it. On the other side we see that the door hits the frame and we must push it.
  • crote 2y ago
    Yeah, but it's not supposed to. With good design it is immediately obvious whether the door is push or pull - even when the frame doesn't have any clear indications. For example, the door in [0] (apologies for the YT short) has no immediately clear hints if you look at the frame or handle. Both sides look exactly the same, so how are you supposed to know? Add a "push/pull" sticker you'll miss 90% of the time? The Vox vodcast(?) in [1] goes a lot further into the problem, starting from a very similar door. The solution is pretty simple, in hindsight: if they designed the door properly, you won't even be able to pull on a push door. Have a pull handle on the pull side, and a push plate on the push side. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oJnEjV8vQJg https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oJnEjV8vQJg [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY96hTb8WgI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY96hTb8WgI
• Terr_ 2y ago
  I wish car manufacturers would refocus from touchscreens (for reasons I will assume everyone understands) to a cost-cutting compromise of modular physical knobs and buttons. Imagine if there was a standard form-factor, so manufacturers could install a 1x4 unit and then plug in a line of dials or button-clusters, where each section has its own tiny display that can be software-controlled to show what it does. Yeah, it won't always match the exact lines and swoops designers want to use, but I want usability, I don't buy a car to show off the interior to others. The people who do do that are probably buying much more expensive cars and can easily afford to do things the classic way.
  • crote 2y ago
    Cars used to have modular buttons. It was very common to have a couple of blanks in your infotainment cluster. The problem is that it still requires custom per-feature assembly. A single car model needs a dozen different button configs, with a dozen different wiring harnesses. That's a lot more expensive than a simple one-size-fits-all touch screen you install into literally every single car and configure with a software flag.
    • reaperducer 2y ago
      Cars used to have modular buttons. It was very common to have a couple of blanks in your infotainment cluster. My brand-new luxury-brand EV still has blanks. Not all trim levels get the rear fog lights, or a few other things I can't remember. Also, they're used for buttons related to adding the towing package.
      • hadlock 2y ago
        Not all markets get all features at top trim levels. A top trim level 5 series in Malaysia is pretty close to the US base model 3 series (plastic trim panels vs wood or textured metal), whereas China sometimes has long wheelbase chassis available, and occasionally you can order power window shades and self closing doors. Even the US doesn't get LWB option here in the states (it's great though, your kid can't kick the back of your seat until they're almost 4)
• jimkleiber 2y ago
  This is one of the many things my dad did in his 40+ year career as an engineer at GM. I'm really excited to share this with him and grateful for such a write-up. A big thank you to the author, the person posted it here, and all those who upvoted it.
• steezeburger 2y ago
  Reminds me of m5stack's dial https://shop.m5stack.com/products/m5stack-dial-esp32-s3-smart-rotary-knob-w-1-28-round-touch-screen?variant=44064386875649 https://shop.m5stack.com/products/m5stack-dial-esp32-s3-smar... I got a few to play around with for my home automation system, but haven't had the time.
  • scottbez1 2y ago
    The m5stack dial is just a screen with rotary input ring, but doesn't have haptic feedback. They actually just launched a new product the roller485 or rollerCAN that in theory is a nice off-the-shelf BLDC haptic knob, but I haven't had a chance to play with mine yet
• dlcarrier 2y ago
  Designing car controls is easy. You take what engineers have spent 100 yeas fine tuning every element of, for precision and ergonomics, then you give to someone with an industrial design degree who throws it all out the door to make something shiny, and it kills Anton Yelchin, amongst others.
  • hadlock 2y ago
    I've been convinced for a long time that much of this is a jobs program for staff ui/ux developers. The UI for AWS hasn't changed appreciably in ten years but they've still managed to redesign it at least three times in that period with no benefit to anyone. It would be nice if major companies would have a LTS UI for paid users and then allow the UX team to disrupt others workflow using an opt in strategy.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• hammock 2y ago
  It's Google Nest for your car. OP mentions the Braun work on pots (potentiometers, the common lingo for rotary dials). I suggest they also check out the entire subculture around pots and faders in the music industry, where a lot of thought goes into them as relates to mixing board design and experience.
• jillesvangurp 2y ago
  I think a good analogy here is retro digital cameras. I have a Fuji X-T30, which is about five years old now. Still a decent camera and it has a lot of physical controls. Except they are not really physical controls. They are buttons and dials that are re-programmable. Even the aperture ring on my lens is not physically connected to anything. The aperture is controlled digitally. The aperture ring just gives off a signal to the camera that is than hooked up to the aperture. Some lenses even have re-programmable buttons now. Some cheaper lenses don't have dedicated controls like that. But you can still hook up one of the other dials on the body to do the same. There are wheel-button thingies on the front and the back that you can bind to whatever. Cars basically could use controls like that. Maybe with some sensible defaults; and there's going to be a bunch of things that most people would like to control with a button or a dial. Not that hard to execute and you can sell cars with more and less dials. Or no dials at all. The touch screen is always the cheap fallback. The buttons are a nice up-sell. And with the right APIs and wireless protocols, it wouldn't even be too hard to have third party bluetooth buttons even; or a strip of buttons that plugs in a USB socket. Or similar. You can buy flight simulator hardware that emulate most of a modern cockpit with physical buttons. Most of these things are USB devices. Some of these things are pretty affordable even. Throttle compartments, landing gear buttons, buttons with a satisfying click/thunk/etc. Whatever you want. Like it or not, this stuff is basically cost related. Buttons have lots of wires, components, etc. That increases cost of assembly and bill of materials. They can also break and cause additional cost under warranty. People need training on how to install and repair that stuff. The nice thing with a touch screen is that it's just a handful of components and wires. Installs in no time and if it breaks, it's easy to replace. So, the question for manufacturers then becomes what is the car with the least buttons that drivers still pay a premium for? Because, that's the most profitable for them. And the reality of course is that what people say what they'll buy mostly doesn't match their behavior in the show room. It's the same with a lot of products. It doesn't matter whether people are buying a TV, a phone, a new laptop or whatever. Some people really know what they are buying, but most don't, and some only think they know and talk themselves into buying crap they definitely are not going to be happy with. In the end, people mostly just select the thing with the largest feature matrix that still fits their budget. And the nice thing with software features is that there's no assembly or component cost involved. Modern cars are smart phones with wheels. Literally made by smart phone manufacturers like Huawei and Xiaomi even (both sell lots of cars in China).
• costcopizza 2y ago
  One overlooked feature of physical controls is that they also give interiors an identity and experience. Growing up obsessed with cars, I loved seeing how different brands would lay out the cabin. Volvos from the 2000s used a rather large diagram of a seated person to select the HVAC vent for example. Also, in my brain, a 3000+ pound object just dang requires some stuff to physically press, push, and hear click! A couple giant touchscreens with touch controls nearly eliminates that.
  • masklinn 2y ago
    > Volvos from the 2000s used a diagram of a seated person to select the HVAC vent for example. … don’t all cars do this? I can’t remember seeing anything other than that to represent which vents are active.
    • rdlw 2y ago
      Here's a picture: https://www.media.volvocars.com/uk/en-gb/media/photos/47385/centre-floating-console-with-exclusive-trim-on-the-all-new-volvo-v40-r-design https://www.media.volvocars.com/uk/en-gb/media/photos/47385/...
  • russellbeattie 2y ago
    I get what you're saying, but I totally disagree with it. It reminds me of mid-2000s Nokia, where each year they completely redesigned their phones simply to change them. It turned out what people wanted was a brick with a few common buttons, a nice screen and a standard GUI. The main problem stems from the fact that car manufacturers will always choose novel designs over usability. They change components not to improve functionality, but simply for differentiation. As you pointed out, even if a control is well designed like Volvo's HVAC, it's phased out during the next refresh. A newer problem is that every single car maker is beyond incompetent when it comes to software and UX. It's not part of their culture and expertise. So in addition to bad or missing buttons, even the screens are a nightmare. This is an entrenched idea in the automotive industry, so it probably won't change, but it's something that really needs to stop in my opinion.
  • marssaxman 2y ago
• nraleigh 2y ago
  This is nice. So tired of touch screen controls that I can't access without breaking my focus from driving. This is a nice middle ground where you can display rich graphics if you're looking down at the knob, but can also control by feel without losing focus.
• maxglute 2y ago
  Standardizing voice control in cars will go a long way until vendors decide to standardize physical controls or car OS. I should be able to get in any car and say "Set heat to X", "Defrost Windows" etc.
  • wnissen 2y ago
    Told a rented Telsa "Turn on wipers". It replied that it didn't understand "Turn on vipers". Yes, car, I have a basket of venomous snakes in the back and wish them to be activated! Bravo! Once LLMs are a lot better at understanding intent, that is probably what we'll get, since it will be cheaper than even bargain basement mechanical controls.
    • GuB-42 2y ago
      With better AI, the car could have searched YouTube for a documentary about snake reproduction.
  • thecrumb 2y ago
    Does that work with kids talking in the backseat, the radio playing, GPS reading directions out loud, all at the same time?
  • b112 2y ago
    You should! Choice is great. I also should not have to talk to my car, I hate doing so.
• tiffanyh 2y ago
  I'm always reminded of the QuickTime v4.0 volume rocker and how painful it was to use. Screenshot: https://www.macintoshrepository.org/_resize.php?imgenc=ZmlsZeb9XMvb3ZlcmZsb3dfZHJpdmUyL2ZpbGVzL21nL3NpdGVzL21nL2ZpbGVzL3NjcmVlbnNob3RzL1F1aWNrVGltZV9QbGF5ZXJfMS5qcGd8d3d3Lm1hY2ludG9zaHJlcG9zaXRvcnkub3JnLzE4MTItcXVpY2t0aW1lLTQ%3D https://www.macintoshrepository.org/_resize.php?imgenc=ZmlsZ... Fortunately, it was changed to just a slider in v5.0 as seen here: https://jablickar.cz/en/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Apple-QuickTime-5-FB.jpg.webp https://jablickar.cz/en/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Apple-Qui...
  • NegativeLatency 2y ago
    I don't remember using that one, is it a wheel you can interact with, or does clicking the volume chunks change the volume?
    • vt240 2y ago
      There's no wheel on a one button mouse :P Sorry I am really joking here. We have a number of Avid mixing consoles from the 2010s that have extensive mouse UI wheel controls, yet they shipped with trackball controllers. They're actually much easier to use with a standard three-button scroll-wheel mouse. Haha.
• ge96 2y ago
  Is that over kill to use a BLDC for a dial? They are pretty cheap nowadays
• thecrumb 2y ago
  As I get older the one thing these designer overlook is aging eyesight. My Honda has decent controls but the small display (like on these knobs) is very difficult to see sitting still. At night, while driving - it's impossible. The icons are tiny. Given the size of the current screens in cars - that's a lot of real estate for knobs. Use it.
  • _carbyau_ 2y ago
    Given the way things are designed I feel I cannot emphasize your point on aging eyesight enough. Aging eyesight is a thing that affects everyone! [0] If you are in your twenties and designing things to be seen, invest in your own future as well as a large demographic that usually has more money... [0] https://www.aoa.org/healthy-eyes/eye-health-for-life/adult-vision-41-to-60-years-of-age https://www.aoa.org/healthy-eyes/eye-health-for-life/adult-v...
    • CRConrad 2y ago
      > Aging eyesight is a thing that affects everyone! If you're lucky.
      • _carbyau_ 2y ago
        :-) From a design point of view, everyone you care about. Dead people won't use your carefully designed widget.
  • userbinator 2y ago
    On the other hand, one of the most important aspects of physical controls is that you shouldn't need to look at them to operate them, as your eyes should remain on the road.
• usaphp 2y ago
  I like controls in the upcoming Rivian cars, it's basically changing the physical feedback based on what you are selecting [1] 1 - https://youtu.be/k0Gt_PUyldc?si=VxK1rzWr0Vx0JUHd&t=371 https://youtu.be/k0Gt_PUyldc?si=VxK1rzWr0Vx0JUHd&t=371
• insane_dreamer 2y ago
  My favorite car control system is the BMW iDrive rotary dial. Touch screens are fine for given much more fine-grained access to controls. But they should be limited to controls that you _don't need to set while driving_. It's absurd that it takes 3 taps on a screen -- diverting my attention to the screen -- on my Tesla to turn on defogging (a common event here!) while I can do it with a one touch (now muscle-memorized) on my Subaru.
  • kdmtctl 2y ago
    Did you ever tried to use the rotary dial for text input? I gave up immediately. The car has a regular screen regular, no touch. Something is good only when balanced.
    • insane_dreamer 2y ago
      Yeah, agreed on a rotary dial being terrible for text input. That's where a touch screen shines. But you shouldn't need to do anything requiring text input while driving.
      • kdmtctl 2y ago
        I barely used the dial while driving, except for track selection. There are lot of different knobs in old models)
    • piperswe 2y ago
      They have touchscreens now, so you can input text with an on-screen keyboard but do everything else with the controller.
      • kdmtctl 2y ago
        Sure. That what I meant balanced.
    • hadlock 2y ago
      Only twice in seven years did voice control not work for me. I can't recall the last time bmw didn't have touchscreen in a car but it predates 2014
• NotYourLawyer 2y ago
  Touch screens are such a lazy, shitty, dangerous way to implement 90% of the functions they’re currently used for. Good to see that at least one person is working on this problem.
  • bdangubic 2y ago
    hard agree though I think most people don’t realize that you don’t need to use a touchscreen at all if you are willing to talk to your car. I yell a lot in the car trying to turn shit on on the touchscreen but luckily my 11-year is almost always in the car with me with the words of wisdom “just ask the car to do it” :)
• mmooss 2y ago
  Lots of research is done on UI for cars and planes, for understandable reasons. I wonder how much is applicable to other less valued devices where there is little research. I thought of it because someone was talking about their new super-bright, blinking bicycle tail light. I could see someone naively intuiting brighter is better or blinking is better, but I know UI well enough to know that naive intuition has poor accuracy. I spent a little time looking for empirical information but almost all I could find was cars. (I did find something that said blinking could be a problem because it's hard to visually and mentally track a moving object in the dark - it's in one spot, disappears, and then reappears in another spot. I did come across the standard blink cycle for cars, which includes total cycle length, and the on-period length and off-period length in each cycle.)
• DigitalSea 2y ago
  I learned this lesson the hard way with my early 2000s BMW 5 Series (a 2004 model). It had a single joystick-style knob (iDrive, if I remember correctly) controlling a screen that handled everything—climate, settings, and more. The problem? It was an all-in-one system, completely integrated with vehicle functions, which meant you couldn’t swap it out for a newer or better OEM system. You were stuck with aging tech, and once the screen or computer started acting up, there were no simple fixes. No cheap button replacement, no easy upgrades. Compare that to an old LandCruiser or similar vehicle from the ’80s. Physical controls still work decades later, and worst-case scenario, you replace a button or a switch for pocket change. Meanwhile, modern cars are turning into disposable tech products, destined for obsolescence the moment their proprietary systems fail. It's for this reason when I bought a new car a couple of years ago, I opted for a Toyota LandCruiser, the use of physical buttons (despite coming with touchscreens now) makes a huge difference when you're driving and want to press a button to change music or turn the volume up/down.
  • NegativeLatency 2y ago
    Having a standard DIN/double DIN slot for a head unit also makes upgrades/changes easier. With all the new cars having such bespoke and integrated systems, it makes stuff like changing out the head unit much harder. ex putting a new carplay double DIN head unit is much easier in older cars, and difficult/impossible in newer cars
    • ssl-3 2y ago
      New-enough passenger cars tend to have connectivity like Carplay as a built-in. Old-enough passenger cars tend to have a standard-enough hole DIN-ish hole to fit a modern aftermarket unit with modern connectivity. In between those two, there's a world of cars that have touch-screen controls but lack modern connectivity. This is a subset of vehicles that cannot do anything but shrink as they age out. But there are some aftermarket solutions for these, too, which add modern connectivity while retaining the stock electronics and physical appearance. (There's actually quite a diverse array of these upgrades available, though the origin of these devices feels very strange to me compared to traditional car audio aftermarket, and it is also absolutely exclusively Chinese.)
• hcarvalhoalves 2y ago
  Sorry, but if you're suggesting any AC control different than simple knobs [1], you're failing miserably. This [1] type of control doesn't require taking eyes out the road to adjust temp, fan speed and fan direction. Since it's a simple fscking knob, it can be adjusted by feel alone, and both the clicks and the angle give feedback on what setting it is. The suggested solution is bad, for these reasons: It tries to be clever by providing the lost "clickness" with haptic feedback, but it still misses the most important feedback, which is the angle of the knob. So it still requires you take eyes out of the road to see the setting you're in. It also commits one of the cardinal sins of good UI, which is being a modal control. So, again, you need to take eyes out of the road and keep clicking to put in the right setting. [1] https://i0.wp.com/weberbrothersauto.s3.amazonaws.com/2022/12/XB294_21.jpg?fit=1599%2C1199&ssl=1 https://i0.wp.com/weberbrothersauto.s3.amazonaws.com/2022/12...
• amelius 2y ago
  This looks very similar to the iPod slider control.
• mkayle 2y ago
  Yeah, this article really nailed it. I totally agree about the touchscreen thing in cars. It's made driving so much more distracting, honestly. The point about haptic feedback and having a clear layout is so important. Good to see that some companies like Jaguar and Skoda are still getting it right with actual buttons and knobs! More should definitely follow their lead.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• Unearned5161 2y ago
  I guess that's a nicer touchscreen than others, but I just don't get why we need touchscreens at all to begin with. I'm a fan of Mazda having a touchless screen, and I'm even more a fan of my 2004 bmw X5 that has the beautiful control of minutely adjusting the temperature by turning a dial in the middle of the dash. You can set the temperature to something moderate like 70 or whatever and then if the air hitting your face and hands is too hot or cold, you just turn the dial, all other vents continue doing their thing at 70, but you can have hot/cold air on your hands at the same time. And, of course, you can do this adjustment in a split second while you merge onto the highway.
• brailsafe 2y ago
  It's wild to me that so many people ITT obviously hate many aspects of the interface they have with their cars, and yet buy them new anyway and deal with it. Having not had a car for years, the only time I'd find this acceptable is if I was just buying a palatable but imperfect used car rather than a new one that's tens of thousands. I'd accept that some of these issues may not be discovered during the lead up research and testing phase, but it's weird and possibly upsetting that the pressure to buy an arbitrary car is so strong that some people would just get one anyway. If I need a car temporarily, these are things I can easily overlook for like the week I have it, but if the controls irritate me, I'm sure as hell not inclined to go out and buy one anyway.
  • typewithrhythm 2y ago
    What's the alternative? Most cars have similar interfaces, and few are what I would want; but if you have already decided to buy a new "luxury van" (fill in your preferred type and trim), then you don't really get much of a choice.
    • brailsafe 2y ago
      > but if you have already decided to buy a new "luxury van" Is that not a choice? That's the confusing bit. People talking about these like they've been held at gunpoint to consume luxury vehicles. My sense is that car/automobile purchases are just so ingrained as default necessities that the idea of not having one either is or seems to be unthinkable.
• renewiltord 2y ago
  This is a really clever design for the device! Damn, very clever. It's not a car knob with the multi modal thing but it would be great for a home thermostat and related stuff. Click to switch to heat, Click to switch to cold, so on and so forth.
• dzhiurgis 2y ago
  I'm very happy with my Tesla touchscreen while buttons on recent Toyota rental sucked balls - they weren't spaced apart so you are taking your eyes off road. Some older Japanese cars place bunch of buttons in a little island that takes solid half minute to figure out what you need. People blindly reeeee'ing on touchscreens need to learn how to form a coherent arguments. i.e. they are not great for old and frail or some manufacturers don't know basics of UX. End of the day getting pissy about climate controls is ridiculous. If you can't operate car for few minutes within couple degrees comfortable temperature then you might be a problem.
• 31carmichael 2y ago
  Any number of automobile manufactures should fire a bunch of staff and hire you. How we got to touch screens to control things which previously didn't require taking your eye off the road continues to amaze me.
• frankus 2y ago
  One obvious (but probably obsolete) use of this would be a radio tuner where the strength of the detent is proportional to the strength of the radio signal.
  • mhb 2y ago
    Because how else could you tell if you were hearing a broadcast clearly?!?
• ej1 2y ago
  [dead]
• initramfs 2y ago
  this is why I want my next car to have physical dials.
• blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  All that is needed are knobs or buttons or switches to directly access as many functions as possible without the driver looking. For things in the screen, there should be a clicking knob that can navigate the screen without touch.
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• anna41517 2y ago
  [flagged]
• AStonesThrow 2y ago
  Perhaps we've lost the plot of both vehicles and computers. When I was a child, computers were office-based machines, and it seemed, at least, that computers ("bicycles for the mind", "paperless office", "You Will... AT&T") were going to make life simpler, efficient, and leisurely as they took over our menial labor. But computers came into homes, and just tended to be a plaything where games and pointless activities could be concentrated into your Residential Swiss Army Knife. It seemed promising for awhile, when word processing and spreadsheets and databases could be had. But they really just needed to upskill the everyman---> If you're productive at this point, it's in spite of these computers, with the complexity and crossed purposes and support difficulties. I could probably just do 16 hour days reading Privacy Policies and paying an attorney to translate them. I think one end-goal of ubiquitous computing was to offload all those secretarial, clerking, office assistant functions onto the consumer. It's mind-blowing to this guy that ordinary folks could get anything done with paper, a copper pair, and snail mail??? My father would joke at the store: "if they ask people at checkout whether they found everything ok, say yes, because otherwise they'll rearrange the store!" and it rings true with app development and obsolescence, because the drive to innovate and "improve" gives people job security, and produces patents, and press releases to pump your stock. And when the whole chain of tools/components is working this way, nobody can fight anymore. The App Stores seem to gloat when they've updated 23 apps to ratchet up the "let me relearn this from scratch as I simultaneously need a critical-path task to get finished on time" So what are critical paths on a vehicle? It seems like so many "cushy first class" add-ons that increase the value-add and profit propositions. Perhaps it just maintains dopamine levels enough to cope with a car-based urban wasteland where you only park where you sleep. I've used so many OS. So many apps. But leveraged tiny fractions of them because the learning curves are insurmountable. What's the average Joe do with malfunctioning computers: consult a 12-year-old STEM student or go to Geek Squad. Eventually high school will just mandate the MCSE/Apple tracks because, computer literacy not being optional anymore, it's not clear how far an 18-year-old can get initiated into the mystery cults and obscure arcana as a Cyberspace Sorceror. So these in-vehicle computers are maximizing complexity and recapitulating Emacs->Operating System->Reads Mail->MMORPG in meatspace. When I can summon a robot to drive me around. But the edu-info-tainment systems in ordinary cars is nearly getting in our face to make the commute like another 4 hours in the office. Wow!
• d--b 2y ago
  I take the opportunity to rant about cruise control / speed limit buttons, which have a much worse UX than climate control. If someone in the auto industry reads this: Can I get a button that says 50, one that says 80 and one that says 130. Right now, you have to hit “set” and then adjust the speed limit with some up and down arrows, which is really annoying and takes your eyes off the road. 99% of the time I need 50/80/130. Yes, those are French speed limits, so if you prefer, you do 1/2/3 where you can set the 3 speeds in the parameters. Or at the very least, make the arrows adjust the speed in 5kph increments.
  • Hackbraten 2y ago
    > so if you prefer, you do 1/2/3 where you can set the 3 speeds in the parameters. Please don’t do this. Presets can be super difficult to understand. Configuring them can feel overwhelming, and you can’t verify your presets easily while the vehicle is stopped. > Or at the very least, make the arrows adjust the speed in 5kph increments. Does pressing and holding the arrow not do that for you? I remember (before I went carless) that my Audi used to do 10kph increments, displaying the target speed in the HUD, when I pressed and held the lever.
    • PetitPrince 2y ago
      > Does pressing and holding the arrow not do that for you? I remember (before I went carless) that my Audi used to do 10kph increments, displaying the target speed in the HUD, when I pressed and held the lever. IIRC Gen 2 Priuses only incremented the speed by 1.604km/h (yes, that 1mi/h, go figure why they didn't adjust for the rest of the world). But you're right that most of the time it's adjustable by holding the arrows (I've tried Peugeot, Opel, Hyundai).
    • d--b 2y ago
      When you keep the button pressed, it will add 5kph per second you press it or so. This is really the worst, cause I can't keep my eyes on that stuff for several seconds, so I always end up overshooting, and fiddling with the buttons way more than what's safe.
  • 2y ago
• rramadass 2y ago
  Related: There is a domain of study named Cyber-Physical Systems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyber%E2%80%93physical_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyber%E2%80%93physical_system) which is basically a inter-disciplinary approach combining mathematical theory, physical sensors/actuators/I/O devices, network communication and software architectures. I used to think it was just a buzzword for Embedded Systems but it is actually a distinct holistic view of looking at the whole entangled system. This free book Introduction to Embedded Systems - A Cyber-Physical Systems Approach by Lee & Seshia gives a pretty good overview - https://ptolemy.berkeley.edu/books/leeseshia/ https://ptolemy.berkeley.edu/books/leeseshia/
• simonbarker87 2y ago
  Ah yes. A control with a little, densely detailed screen on that your hand totally covers when using it. This type of control is investigated by design teams at auto companies and the sensible ones rarely take it forward as, while they look cool, when used in a vehicle they are more distracting than touch screens.
  • gxs 2y ago
    This is just one of those situations where some people can ruin things for others A significant number of people prefer something that looks cool over actual usability Enough that car companies will put out something that looks cool even if they know usability isn’t great. They aren’t dumb, they just build what sales Whenever we did ux research for our product, this would come up over and over. Users would always pick designs that looked cooler even when we made them bad on purpose to be sure Just is what it is. Of course, it’s possible to build something that looks cool AND has good ux, but this is actually hard and ain’t nobody got time for that.
• CraigJPerry 2y ago
  My wife’s new car[1] has the worst climate controls on the market. Just so you know this isn’t hyperbole: - the touch controls are blacked out at night, no backlight, no ambient light touches the black touch controls surface, the temperature control is hidden from occupants at night - Everything except temperature can only be accessed via the infotainment screen HOWEVER nothing can be accessed from any of the default/ambient screens, you must always first go into the HVAC screen and then select your options - the car would rather that you don’t operate HVAC in terms of temperature, fan speed and choice of vents to enable, instead defaulting to a “helpful” screen which offers around 8 fairly indistinguishable settings like “warm my feet” However, I think it’s the best HVAC I’ve experienced in any car. WHAT?!?!! Turns out I value instant heat above all else, all previous cars have taken a mile or two to begin producing warmth. This (thanks to being an EV) just instantly starts blasting 5kw of heat into the cabin. Amazing. So I still hate the controls but I wouldn’t give up instant heating to fix them. Obviously I’d rather have instant heating AND sane controls. I just never knew what i valued as a user before, I found it interesting. [1] VW ID Buzz
• oalae5niMiel7qu 2y ago
  >I created an automated system controlled by a temperature dial. This, in turn, determines the fan speed and seat heating. If the cabin temperature deviates significantly from the set temperature, the system will increase the fan speed and seat heating or cooling accordingly. Oh, god. It just keeps getting worse. I don't want a fake knob that simulates a real one except it ignores me and decides the fan speed, blend door position, and probably the recirculation door on its own (allowing only a temporary override). I want a fan dial that is electrically connected to the fan, such that the position of the dial directly controls the voltage being sent into the fan motor, with no computer or robotics in between. In other words, a step switch. And I want a slider that is mechanically connected to the blend door for controlling temperature, again, with no computer or robotics in between. And the same for the recirculation door.
• sitkack 2y ago
  The 1989 Toyota Corolla had the best climate control block of any car I have ever owned. https://www.ebay.com/itm/387701094464 https://www.ebay.com/itm/387701094464 It has detents, so you can tell when you are moving it. Every button is different, the entire thing can be used without ever setting eyes on it. The best part is no weird modal lockouts between external air and recirculation.
• GrumpyNl 2y ago
  I applaud the work and thoughts the author put in this system, but for me it just demonstrates why all these complex digital controls fail. I have a older mercedes, my seat heating has one knob, 3 settings, high, low, off. Those buttons, i can find them blindfolded.
• batushka5 2y ago
  Reading this feels living through new dark age of Human–computer interaction (HCI). As and oldschool engineer, I was though HCI in year 2008. How to place and calculate controls, heatpaths, click to action counts, colors, where to use what... And all this accumulated knowledge went down the drain (even in military!). Now rediscovered like some lost art.
• bufferout 2y ago
  Surely the pinnacle of design here would simply be two buttons: "I'm too hot" and "I'm too cold" (assuming you couldn't somehow automatically measure that state e.g. contactless thermometers). All the complexity of deciding resulting target temperature and fan speed is work that an elegant and intelligent system should then perform for the end user. If it can't be determined automatically, try harder or add more controls.
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
• d1sxeyes 2y ago
  One of my favourite dash controls ever was the Saab “Night” mode. Very simple, one press and all of the backlight illumination was turned off except for the absolutely critical controls (speed, etc.). Super useful for reducing distractions while driving at night. Most of the night driving I do today is polluted by light splashing off a central LED on the main console, or dynamic instrumentation on the dash itself. Match that with the blinding headlights manufacturers are wont to put in nowadays and it makes for a much more fatiguing night time driving experience. I do wonder if it increased the risk of falling asleep at the wheel, but I have no doubt that it improved night vision overall.
  • MontgomeryPi2 2y ago
    ...and the Saab cup holder. Not a control per se but always fascinates the odd passenger. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/tjVN6p8VkPM https://www.youtube.com/shorts/tjVN6p8VkPM
    • d1sxeyes 2y ago
      Ahhh memories!
  • Workaccount2 2y ago
    In my old Honda I removed every single dash light except for the clock and radio screen. Even the speedo/tach lights (driving stick makes to much easier to just "feel" your speed). Total bliss driving at night.
• vachina 2y ago
  A good control interface is an interface that you’re used to. The best kind of control interface is no interface, a set and forget a/c that has it all figured out; you just switch on the car and you’ll always feel comfortable.
• aa-jv 2y ago
  I work in the pro audio world, and have had many opportunities over the years to participate in the design review process for multiple synthesizer musical instruments. One of the most common issues that gets people riled up is Fitts Law: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts%27s_law It seems that many synth UI designers have small, thin, bony fingers, and overlook the issues that comes from having knobs placed too close together. They like to design tight, compact, "valuable looking" knob panels, and I like to inform them that these designs are nonsense and some consideration should be given to the spacing of things. This has an impact on the end user with fat fingers, since moving one knob should not provide the opportunity to accidentally 'bump' or 'jog' another adjacent knob - there simply has to be space to allow for market finger types. (In spite of the fact that these are mostly German designers, asking them to review their designs in the context of automative controls, has been a herculean effort.) So one of my favourite toys in my arsenal when confronted with a new, fresh-faced designer full of impactful and dense design ideas, is an Arduino with an LCD display attached to a breadboard, and 4 movable knobs which can be placed in an approximation of the design. I wrote a tool that displays a UI with a fine-tune parameter, and whenever I get a chance I lay out the knobs using the designers intended dimensions, and ask them to fine-tune the parameter. If they can do it one-handed without bumping other knobs (and thus triggering the :P emoji and siren noise), they get a pass and a check-mark on their design doc. If, however, their dimensions make it impossible to move only a single knob, they get a little :P mark on their review documents, and my designer-killer tool gets put back in the drawer for another day. I will have to review this toy for the context of display-in-control style interfaces in the future, it seems ..
• nbzso 2y ago
  Brilliant. I need this thing for my computer. Kensington, are you seeing this? It is time to work on trackball wheel of Kensington Expert. We want haptic feedback with electric motor. One of my classic cars is a Mercedes CLK 200 Kompressor from 2000. The highest quality physical controls for this class. Joy to operate. We need this back.
• sklargh 2y ago
  A bit late but for those of you who still really like physical controls , want a family capable vehicle (I’ve done 3 nights with two under five) and something off the beaten path it’s hard to go wrong with the Audi A4 allroad wagon. Absolutely fantastic suspension and pretty quick for a family wagon. Midrange package gets you adaptive cruise control and all the other safety stuff. Mild hybrid.
  • cormorant 2y ago
    Not for long. Next model year it's being replaced by this: https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/L3kENm/s1/audi-a5-avant-2024.webp https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/L3kENm/s1/audi-a5-avant-20... (via: https://www.reddit.com/r/Audi/comments/1ggr4ox/does_the_2025_a4a5_have_physical_buttons_for/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Audi/comments/1ggr4ox/does_the_2025... )
    • sklargh 2y ago
      Ugh. Ick. I fear soon I’ll just have to buy commercial vehicles to get an AC dial.
• queuebert 2y ago
  The blog writer's final design is basically what Ford uses in the F-series these days. But Ford's dials have a couple of functions that I didn't see mentioned. First, when you turn the temperature dial all the way hot and push hard into the stop, it turns on max defrost, and all the way cold and push is max A/C. Also, if the system is off, it turns on when you turn either dial. The dials are also large and rubbery for gripping with dirty hands or with gloves on, something a lot of manufacturers seem to ignore.
• dupays 2y ago
  A pet peeve of mine is that climate controls shouldn't just have a single temperature setting but an acceptable range. In winter 18(c) is quite acceptable. In summer it's too cold. Ideally I'd set a temp range of 18-22(c). If the temp goes outside that the AC should move it back within range.
• martythemaniak 2y ago
  Honest question here - do people actually constantly fiddle with climate knobs? I honestly don't understand the whole "knobs are important because I can change without looking", I get it, but are you actually doing this? I've had a Tesla for many years now, the temp is set to 21C and I don't miss knobs because I don't change this. I prewarm/cool the car from the app so I never enter a hot or cold car, only a 21C car. Occasionally (ie a dozen times a year) I'll change the temp for some odd reason, but rarely while the car is moving. Seat and steering wheel are also set to auto. I just don't think about the temp in my car, but climate knobs seem like a huge sticking point to lots of people?
• jollyjerry 2y ago
  Appreciate the post and the discussion around it. As a car enthusiast, I enjoyed reading the specific implementations out in the wild today. What stood out in the article was the attention paid to designing intuitive haptics. What our bodies expect in feedback when we turn a weighted dial. Doing it in software allows controlling multiple things, but I would still prefer a dumb dial per function, placed in close proximity to where the function acts. Seat controls near seats, climate controls near vents. Personalization stuffed into the screen and menus and profiles. I did not think I would like auto climate controls until I lived with one. Even then, I would fiddle with it because I didn’t like the sudden high initial fan speed until I got used to it.
• darshan-gohil 2y ago
  I appreciate a designer who prioritizes haptics and the personal touch in controls over relying solely on touchscreens. While touchscreens give devices a modern and multifunctional feel, I prefer some basic features to be handled using a handheld hybrid combo. The team has done a fantastic job creating a ready solution for this. Hopefully, some Japanese companies get this imbibed in their models, especially Toyota and Maruti Suzuki!