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The cynic in me thinks that the US is going to roll over and take this fascist shake down. The optimist in me thinks that the people will rise up with a resound

• csa 2y ago
  > The cynic in me thinks that the US is going to roll over and take this fascist shake down. The optimist in me thinks that the people will rise up with a resounding NO and do something about it. Right now I'm not sure which I believe. At this point, almost certainly the former. 1. Most Trump supporters do not think that there is a problem. 2. “Regular people” — that is, the folks who don’t track news — won’t notice any problems in their day-to-day lives until after said shakedown has been completed. The only way large swathes of people will demand action is if they are hit hard in the wallets in an immediate and clear way (e.g., rapid price increases to one or more critical goods or services) or if a critical process (e.g., social security checks) gets disrupted. I’m not sure the current types of changes will reach that level.
  • nerdponx 2y ago
    I don't know why you're being downvoted. > 1. Most Trump supporters do not think that there is a problem. Talk to any conservative -- even people who are/were skeptical of Trump -- or browse any conservative-leaning social media. It's clear that the people who voted for Trump fully understood what they voted for: they wanted what's happening. Project 2025 is a good thing in the eyes of many. Maybe they think politicizing the whole executive branch is a little distasteful, but in the eyes of literally millions of Americans, it's a means to a well-justified and long-awaited end.
    • csa 2y ago
      > Maybe they think politicizing the whole executive branch is a little distasteful, but in the eyes of literally millions of Americans, it's a means to a well-justified and long-awaited end. This is a very tight and succinct summary of many conversations I’ve had with conservative family and acquaintances. > I don't know why you're being downvoted. The votes on my comment are going up and down like a yo-yo. I’m pretty sure it’s because I used the term “regular people”, and I used it in quotes. I get the sense that some people are reading more into that phrase than I intended.
    • WgaqPdNr7PGLGVW 2y ago
      > Maybe they think politicizing the whole executive branch is a little distasteful They believe it has already been politicized by people who hate them.
      • nerdponx 2y ago
        That's a great point as well. "They've been doing it to us for decades, what's happening now isn't any worse". The Project 2025 document is really interesting along those lines as well. It's close to 1000 pages, but you can skim pretty much any section that isn't about the military and get the idea. Politicizing the executive branch is an explicitly stated goal, over and over. And furthermore, the push to disband the department of education is specifically an overly political, not because it's ineffective in its mission, but because it's "a one-stop shop for the woke education cartel" -- and yes that is a direct quote.
    • leptons 2y ago
      One thing conservatives are famously not good at is anticipating the consequences of their actions. What could possibly go wrong with immediately deporting all the people who harvest our crops?
      • DecoySalamander 2y ago
        But what if they are replaced by government workers who are made redundant? It might just balance out.
        • leptons 2y ago
          I'm not sure how a person working a desk job for the government suddenly being told to work long hours in hot fields picking crops is going to work out. And if you hadn't noticed, most people working for the government don't live in the middle of farmlands or anywhere near them. I'm not sure how you can think this could work out at all. Your comment also tells me that this was never about immigrants taking our jobs. You seem to be living in a right-wing fantasy world that really doesn't exist. Things are going to get really bad in the country with this administration, the first two weeks have been extremely messy. No, these policies are definitely not going to lower the price of anything - we're on track for wild inflation with these plans. The leopards are going to be well fed though!
  • thinkingtoilet 2y ago
    These "regular people" that you seem to condescendingly speak about absolutely notice it at the pump and at the grocery store. They aren't mindless robots.
    • TylerE 2y ago
      Boy are those folks gonna get what they voted for… Price of eggs dropped yet?
      • technothrasher 2y ago
        I just had a follow up conversation with a lady at work who had said she was voting for Trump because things like eggs were too expensive. Her comment about egg prices now was that she didn't understand why liberals were saddling Trump with egg prices, because the president can't control things like that. She literally did a complete 180 on the topic seemingly without any self awareness. I don't know how to reach people like that. I honestly don't.
        • nyc_data_geek1 2y ago
          I fear there is no reaching some. Orwell wrote about this in 1984 (and also, incidentally, fought fascists on the ground during the Spanish Civil War): "To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again: and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself -- that was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink."
    • csa 2y ago
      > These "regular people" that you seem to condescendingly speak about There was zero condescension in my tone or intent. I put “regular people” in quotes simply because I think most people who do follow the news absolutely don’t realize that the vast majority of people don’t. A simple litmus test for this is to ask random people you meet outside of your personal social and professional circles (e.g., the front desk person at the gym, a cashier at a grocery store, a rideshare driver… whatever) a simple question like “Who are our US senators?” or “What is the NIH?” I’ve done this, and the sentiment was largely “don’t know, don’t care”. This isn’t a criticism. It’s just an observation that some issues that some folks on HN care about (e.g., details about how lesser known parts of the government function — for example, what’s happening at the NIH and NSF) just aren’t on the radar for large swathes of the population. > absolutely notice it at the pump and at the grocery store. They aren't mindless robots. I think we agree on this, right? And my point is that price changes for most things won’t hit immediately. 1. There have been delays in most of the tariffs. 2. The impact of some tariffs will take longer to hit than others. Fresh food will be fast. Goods with longer shelf lives canned goods, alcohol, and prepared foods might take a while.
  • tremendoussss 2y ago
    [flagged]
    • dragonwriter 2y ago
      > How does a government become more fascist by spending less money and having less "employees"? Fascism isn't a spending level (and because corporatism is an element of fascism and blurs the lines between public and private institutions supporting the governing ideology, the level of resources that are formally in government is particularly irrelevant to fascism.) Also, employees are countable individual entities and not an undifferentiated mass, so fewer, not less.
  • robbiewxyz 2y ago
    From what I gather, life for most of these "regular people" in Germany was still very much in the tolerable range until well into WWII. This was a very weird realization and one that left me pretty sad. Edit to clarify: I also mean no condescension toward "regular people".
    • csa 2y ago
      > From what I gather, life for most of these "regular people" types in Germany was still very much in the tolerable range until well into WWII. Correct. I’ve heard some harrowing stories about the moment of realization straight from the mouths of some of these people. Edit: To be clear, I’m referring to my family and their friends who lived through it.
      • pizlonator 2y ago
        > I’ve heard some harrowing stories about the moment of realization straight from the mouths of some of these people. I’d love to know more.
        • csa 2y ago
          > I’d love to know more. Probably not news, but here are a few big ones that I remember from our conversations: 1. Family member lived in a rural area. They could see the train line that ran between two major cities. I can’t remember the exact order of events (e.g., construction), but at some point they noticed packed trains turning off the main tracks to go to a facility. Packed trains went in, and empty trains came out. At first they didn’t think anything of it… just resettlement stuff or war stuff or whatever. But then it continued. And continued. The rumors started. Everything was hush hush. Nobody dared to ask the authorities. Only later did they learn that it was a concentration camp and what actually happened there. That one kind of blew my mind… they had no idea about what was going on except vague rumors, most of which were wrong. 2. One family member had access to privileged information about the war (in the later stages of the war). One bit of info they knew was about causalities, and how certain assignments were less survivable than others. The propaganda machine made it seem like it was noble to go fight the war that would inevitably be won, but this person knew with a reasonable degree of mathematical estimation that some of the kids being sent off weren’t likely to come back. They said it was tough to look those parents, especially mothers, in the eyes when they made some comment about hoping their kid came home safely. My family member knew that these parents would likely never see their son again, and all for what was looking like a lost and/or questionable war effort that was still playing on nationalist sentiments. 3. This really isn’t that interesting, but… The propaganda late in the war made it seem like Germans in general and the troops specifically were eating well with an abundance of good food, while people who actually grew the food had to do things like use sawdust and straw as filler in their bread. They had a long list of accommodations that they told me that they made so that they didn’t feel hungry, and I don’t remember them all. The cool thing is that there were ways for the rural folks to get access to food beyond the rations. Sometimes they could sneak some extra food to the city-dwelling family members, but the folks in the cities seemed to have it tougher. They were sort of bitter about how the food situation got progressively worse as the war progressed as well as the total disconnect from reality that the propaganda was presenting. Note that these were stories that were told to me decades ago about stuff that had happened many decades before then. I’m sure that some stories were embellished while others were muted. I’m also sure that some of the details were “lost in translation” — either via my mediocre German, their mediocre English, or the limits of language assistance that some of the bilingual folks provided. I don’t really feel like I did these stories justice.
  • spacemanspiff01 2y ago
    I am moving all of my assets to cash. Maybe no one else cares, but I do, and I would rather invest in a functional democracy. Never know, if enough people divest , people might give a shit. But I'm not holding my breath.
• unsnap_biceps 2y ago
  I think the former is most likely. The people are largely unhappy with how things have been and it's unlikely to get materially worse for the majority of people in the near term, so I don't think there will be a fire lit under enough of the population to rise up. If it gets bad enough that most people are starving, rather then just struggling, we'll see action, but I doubt it'll get there anytime soon.
  • mcphage 2y ago
    > it's unlikely to get materially worse for the majority of people in the near term That’s pretty optimistic…
  • Dalewyn 2y ago
    >The people are largely unhappy with how things have been This is an understatement to say the least, and the fact it's been denied and even refused by the powers that be until today is why the pendulum has swung as hard as it has. Americans wanted change, and they finally got it with ferocious retribution because it's been held back for so long.
    • lanstin 2y ago
      Like the old Mencken quote: `Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.`
    • pstuart 2y ago
      The sentiment I get in this regards is that people are angry and want to "burn it to the ground", without any thought of what might possibly take its place.
      • kenjackson 2y ago
        The weird thing is these same people will tell you the US is the greatest place on Earth and if you don't like, then leave!
• deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
• mjfl 2y ago
  Reposting because my previous comment was unjustly flagged: The US just facilitated a genocide in the previous administration. This is not just me saying this - this is the consensus ruling of the International Court of Justice at the UN.
  • freshpots 2y ago
    Barring all of the hyperbole of your comment, I find it astounding how you're unaware of this with such a "thumb on the pulse" of world news: https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/feb/04/benjamin-netanyahu-donald-trump-israel-gaza-middle-east-ceasefire-latest-live-news https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2025/feb/04/benjamin-... Trump said Palestinians have “no alternative” but to “permanently” leave Gaza due to the devastation left by Israel’s war on Hamas. He described Gaza as a “pure demolition site” and claimed Palestinians would “love to leave Gaza”. “I don’t know how they could want to stay,” he said. Trump’s comments marked the first time he has publicly floated the permanent relocation of Palestinians from Gaza. The US president’s remarks in effect endorsed ethnic cleansing of the territory over the opposition of Palestinians and the neighbouring countries. Trump is literally for completely ridding Gaza of the Palestinians so Israel can colonize it. An ACTUAL genocide.
    • tehjoker 2y ago
      > Trump is literally for completely ridding Gaza of the Palestinians so Israel can colonize it. An ACTUAL genocide. This was the goal of the Biden administration. The difference now is that without Israel demolishing Gaza every day, the resistance has demonstrated they cannot be dislodged. Trump has no credibility. They simply cannot do it and both the U.S. and Israeli officials that enabled this are war criminals that should be prosecuted immediately.
      • mjfl 2y ago
        Hasbara bots are out in extreme force.
        • 2y ago
• cft 2y ago
  Time to leave HN for me. It's become a cesspool of this vitriol.
  • kfrzcode 2y ago
    s/sess/cess
    • cft 2y ago
      upvoted
  • alextingle 2y ago
    Which bit of that is vitriol?
    • deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    • zamadatix 2y ago
      If I were to be fair to cft the comment does really seem much different than ones which said they can't wait for people to rise up against Biden because he's a communist. I.e. just a short comment throwing charged political labels rather than discussion the actual meat under consideration. I'm not all that big a fan of that style comment rising to the top threads like this myself, even though I likely lean very opposite of cft on political matters and what I think the impact of this will be like.
      • cft 2y ago
        BTW, I have a written many (widely cited) papers supported by NSF grants during my PhD and postdoc. So it's not a political view, my practical opinion is that NSF needs to be cleaned up. A lot of big grant money goes to outright hopelessly useless stuff.
        • zamadatix 2y ago
• joe_the_user 2y ago
  The thing I find strange is that the other wealthy and powerful stand for the destruction of things that gave the US a huge competitive advantage. The average person isn't hit immediately by the destruction of science. But a far-sighted person with some power should by self-interest not want this. And this, I think, points to the corruption of the entire political class in America with just being upshot.
  • aqueueaqueue 2y ago
    Elon can live anywhere in the world. Very rich people are global citizens. They cannot be patriotic.
    • yibg 2y ago
      A few countries may not want him after this.
    • jcgrillo 2y ago
      We allow them to live. Never forget how much we outnumber them by.
      • kbelder 2y ago
        So shrill.
      • kadushka 2y ago
        Who are "we"? Software engineers with comfortable lives? Minimum wage workers? Police force? Military?
        • jcgrillo 2y ago
          wE
          • kadushka 2y ago
            What if I don’t agree with you - am I still one of “we”?
• ergonaught 2y ago
  By the time there is any actual mass recognition of what is happening, nevermind any attempt to intervene, it will be far too late. There was a successful coup and the USA as such has fallen, now presumably on the route to failing.
  • khazhoux 2y ago
    Not a coup. Trump said he was going to dismantle the government, and the majority empowered him to do so.
    • nicce 2y ago
      If we want to predict things, look no further than Project 2025
    • addandsubtract 2y ago
      An auto coup is still a coup.
• RajT88 2y ago
  I live in the US; born here, lived here all my life. The former is 100% how it will go. The only question is: how bad will it get? A poster down thread mentions a million dead immigrants. I personally think it will just be in the low 6 figures. Maybe high 5 figures.
  • jcgrillo 2y ago
    It wouldn't take much of that to completely destroy the U.S. food supply chain. Those 9 meals separating us all from anarchy will go by quick.
  • spacemanspiff01 2y ago
    So I am moving all my money to cash, I would rather not invest in a fascist state.
  • numpad0 2y ago
    I thought the US has quite a bit more people than millions in total, regardless of which groups you wish to include or exclude.
  • refurb 2y ago
    If only HN had a reminder option. The doom and gloom in these comments is truly funny. I remember the exact same when Trump won the first time. It’s like HN has no memory.
    • error_logic 2y ago
      Trump was surrounded by establishment Republicans last time. This time no checks and balances exist within the administration, and the supreme court has been turned. I wish I could laugh.
    • Gareth321 2y ago
      Yeah this thread is like being on Reddit. "WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!" The hyperbole was thick and fast last time he was elected, with accusations of fascism and certain doom. It turns out, he didn't in fact blow up the world. Quite the opposite. He was the first president in decades not to start a new war. People were inoculated during that first term against hyperbole. Even if "fascism" were to appear now (and I firmly believe it has not), people would no longer care. Well done those of you who cried wolf so vociferously. Trump is president because of you.
• pfd1986 2y ago
  Wouldn't rise up lead to a coup? Isn't this exactly what Trump is waiting / routing for?
• yibg 2y ago
  Roughly half the voting population wants a king. It's not just rolling over, this is welcomed with open arms. I try to understand how the "other side" is thinking about this. Disagreements on policy aside, why would "freedom loving Americans" want a king that can rule unilaterally? Not trying to start a flame war or pose a gotcha question, I'm genuinely curious. What am I missing?
  • khazhoux 2y ago
    I think you're misrepresenting. His side won, and now they get to do what they want. It's always that way, no? Like, isn't that the point of an election?
    • stingrae 2y ago
      They get to do what they want within the rules established by the courts and constitution.
      • yibg 2y ago
        And this time, people don't seem to care about that anymore. Despite the right supposedly being the group that's all about the constitution and rule of law.
      • mike_hearn 2y ago
        That's true in theory, but it's not what's happened in the recent past. A lot of the problems Trump faces are due to "rules" established by the civil service itself - often directly and unashamedly just to spite him, and stop him implementing the policies he campaigned and won on. There's no theory of government in which this is supposed to play a part. For example, the civil service passed new rules in the dying days of the Biden administration intended to stop Trump implementing Schedule F. This didn't come from Congress or the courts. They just passed it themselves. Trump is the boss so can undo that rule with a new rule, but they passed it within a framework of yet more rules they made themselves to slow that down so - if followed - it will take months. This is purely self serving protectionism and has nothing to do with democracy or the Constitution. There's an interesting document here [1] that goes into all the ways the civil service betrayed Trump in the first term. Betrayal is a correct and moderate term to use. They were doing things like forging documents, lying to appointees about non-existent laws, refusing to prosecute legally clear cut cases in order to propagate woke ideology (e.g. discrimination against Asian Americans), deliberately keeping their bosses in the dark, refusing direct orders to do work if it would run contra to woke ideology and many more things. From the Trump team's perspective the rules are largely fake: when they align with what the left want they're followed to the letter, when they don't they're ignored or subverted without consequence. He played that game in his first term, and is apparently no longer willing to do so. It's hard to know what Congress will do but presumably they're aware of the fact that their own laws have created this situation to some extent (even if not the full extent). It wouldn't be surprising to see civil service reform bills appear soon. [1] https://americafirstpolicy.com/assets/uploads/files/Tales_from_the_Swamp-_How_Federal_Bureaucrats_Resisted_President_Trump_-_Revided_1.8.2025.pdf https://americafirstpolicy.com/assets/uploads/files/Tales_fr...
• kilroy123 2y ago
  This is classic anacyclosis in action so none of this is surprising to me. I've talked about this for years, hell even here on HN. We're at the final stage of the cycle—ochlocracy. (Mob rule) I don't think Trump will be king, to be blunt he's too old and not skilled enough. I'm worried about the next guy or the one after that.
• khazhoux 2y ago
  There was just an election! The people literally just voted for this.
• mewc 2y ago
  What is happening is a good thing. rm corruption -rf
  • cycrutchfield 2y ago
    The corruption is currently in the White House, they could start there?
  • Sharlin 2y ago
    Ah, yes. Billionaires who funded the campaign with hundreds of millions, being delegated powers that the president does not have the authority to delegate, getting free access to classified information without any clearance, demanding things they have no authority to demand, promising buy-outs they have no authority or intention to ever honor (if you believe otherwise, I have a hell of a lot of bridges to sell you), crippling programs and agencies meant to keep normal hard-working citizens safe and healthy, everything in order to steal as much taxpayer money as possible? That corruption? The only government efficiency they’re concerned with is the efficiency of funneling other people’s money into their own pockets. Even Putin’s oligarch buddies are nowhere that bold nor think they’re that much above the law.
    • jimkleiber 2y ago
      Some people think politicians make money in corrupt ways but the richest people in the world do it through very clean ways. Almost as if very very rich people are super genius, but the semi-rich people are just corrupt. Ironically, the essence of a confidence trick, or con artistry, is to convince people that you're superhuman, much much much smarter than everyone else.
• amelius 2y ago
  This will probably decide it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance If one party wants to do things democratically at all cost, and the other party wants to bring down democracy, then the latter will win.
• Arkhadia 2y ago
  Sure. I can’t tell you how much I love my tax dollars fluffing the pockets of god knows what while also having to deal with insane inflation due to no accountability in government. More than have the country welcomes the purge
• jccalhoun 2y ago
  He's an old man. I don't know whether to hope he dies of old age soon or to hope he doesn't because that would mean JD Vance would become president.