4 ms·

Oh I see, so training on copyrighted content is fine unless it's your AI model...

by tapoxi 2y ago

maeil 2y ago
Don't worry, OpenAI definitely didn't improperly obtain any of their training data nudge nudge wink wink.
gonzo41 2y ago
Before anything else happens, the world will fall of it's axis from the irony of this. These are the sort of litigious death throws that the threatened orthodoxy throw out when they smell their own blood in the water. A Trillion dollar write down will do that to you.
flashman 2y ago
AI models and their outputs aren't copyrightable because they're not made with human creativity :)
- vinni2 2y ago
  But their data is.
chii 2y ago
it's not copyright, but TOS violation that they're going for. Let's just hope that TOS violation is considered a contract breach, if it even is a valid contract, and not anything crime related. I don't want the state to expend any taxpayer dollars to fund civil offense prosecutions. The music industry has already managed to push their enforcement onto taxpayers via laws such as DMCA etc. Can't have this be done again, and with wider reach.
- mrbungie 2y ago
  Legalities don't make them any less hypocritical. Their strategy right now is to socialize the negative externalities (copyright does not protect anything from them) and capitalize the gains (ToS says you can't use their outputs). PS: I do understand your point. Using taxpayer money would be even worse.
  - isomorphic 2y ago
    "We have no moat. But we are well-capitalized, so in classic early-mover monopolist fashion we'll try to pull the ladder up, then use funds to bri--er, lobby--the government into smacking down climbers."
  - benterix 2y ago
    If I understand their strategy, it's to limit the use of LLMs to American-based companies, by saying that it is dangerous (when used remotely) and illigal (when using remote models). So they strive to make it so that all American companies use American models whereas government agencies use their dedicated gov infra.
    - true_religion 2y ago
      Government agencies would use dedicated infra anyways. Don’t many European governments insist on EU segregated cloud providers or open source software to avoid having critical infrastructure be under US control? And the US is an official ally, whereas China is not.
      - benterix 2y ago
        It seems to make sense but when you look at the dynamics of it, if you legally lock organizations in this way, the Americans will be the only one using expensive models and the rest of the world would be using cheap Chinese models. This wouldn't be great for the USA in general.
- Gigachad 2y ago
  I'm sure Microsofts scrapers read the ToS of every website they scraped to make sure it wasn't a ToS violation.
- cameldrv 2y ago
  Lots of websites have a TOS. Do you think OpenAI's scraper reads all of them and follows all of the terms?
  - sdenton4 2y ago
    ChatGPT seems pretty knowledgeable about Spotify's TOS, for example... So no way for the bot to plead ignorance. :) "Hey, ChatGPT, what are the terms of service for Spotify?" "I can't provide the full, up-to-date terms of service for Spotify, but I can give you an overview of some key points typically included. For the most accurate and comprehensive information, I recommend visiting Spotify’s official website and reading their Terms of Service directly. That said, here are some common points that are usually part of streaming platforms' terms: 1. *Account Creation and Use*: Users need to create an account to access Spotify’s services, and must provide accurate, up-to-date information. They’re responsible for maintaining the security of their account. 2. *Subscription Plans*: Spotify offers different subscription tiers (Free, Premium, Family, etc.). Terms often specify the limitations of each tier, such as access to ads, offline listening, and music quality. 3. *Content Usage*: Spotify provides users with access to music, podcasts, and other content. However, the usage is typically for personal, non-commercial purposes only. Users are not allowed to download, share, or redistribute content unless Spotify allows it (like through the Share button or via a playlist). 4. *Licensing and Intellectual Property*: Spotify owns or has licenses for the content available on the platform. Users are granted a limited, non-exclusive license to access and use the service, but they don’t own the content they listen to. 5. *Privacy*: Spotify collects data, including usage patterns and preferences, which they may use for things like recommendations, advertisements, and analytics. Their privacy policy will detail what information is collected and how it’s used. 6. *Cancellation and Termination*: Either party (Spotify or the user) can terminate the service agreement. Users can cancel their subscription anytime, but Spotify may also suspend or terminate accounts for violations of their terms. 7. *Disclaimers and Limitations of Liability*: Spotify usually limits its liability in case of issues like service interruptions, data loss, or content inaccuracies. 8. *Modifications*: Spotify may update or change its Terms of Service at any time, and users are typically notified of these changes. Continued use of the service after changes indicates acceptance of the updated terms. 9. *Governing Law*: There’s often a clause specifying which country’s laws govern disputes related to the terms, and how disputes will be handled (for example, through arbitration). If you're interested in the full details, you can check Spotify’s official site or app, where their Terms of Service are readily available for review."
- rspoerri 2y ago
  Everything is copyrighted in some countries. The swiss urheberrecht is generated automatically upon creation of the object. You dont have to add © or add it to a register. You cannot transfer the urheberrecht, only usages of your object.
joe_the_user 2y ago
And I'd just add the quote from the non-paywalled fragment is "Microsoft’s security researchers in the fall observed individuals they believe may be linked to DeepSeek exfiltrating a large amount of data using the OpenAI application programming interface, or API" IE, Indeed, "improperly" here is exactly the same "improperly" that a site owner applies to any bulk downloader. So... Scrape not lest ye be scraped, one law for me... etc
- vrighter 2y ago
  You can't be "exfiltrating data" from an api that you pay for access to. That's just called "using what you paid for". Exfiltration is when you extract internal data that's private to the company.
  - joe_the_user 2y ago
    Indeed, I think MS was trying to use the scariest term they could come up with. To belabor the point a bit, "we train, you exfiltrate" etc.
lowlevel 2y ago
Yeah… Gonna file this under Who cares or Good for them….
bodegajed 2y ago
I'm not surprised. This is the expected behavior of a monopolist.
kragen 2y ago
AI model output is not copyrightable, though presumably that will change soon.
quickslowdown 2y ago
These guys need to pick a damn lane, is it ok to steal data to train your chatbot or not? You can't have it both ways.

Oh I see, so training on copyrighted content is fine unless it's your AI model...

by tapoxi 2y ago

Oh I see, so training on copyrighted content is fine unless it's your AI model...

maeil 2y ago

Don't worry, OpenAI definitely didn't improperly obtain any of their training data nudge nudge wink wink.

gonzo41 2y ago

Before anything else happens, the world will fall of it's axis from the irony of this. These are the sort of litigious death throws that the threatened orthodoxy throw out when they smell their own blood in the water. A Trillion dollar write down will do that to you.

flashman 2y ago

AI models and their outputs aren't copyrightable because they're not made with human creativity :)

vinni2 2y ago
But their data is.

chii 2y ago

it's not copyright, but TOS violation that they're going for. Let's just hope that TOS violation is considered a contract breach, if it even is a valid contract, and not anything crime related. I don't want the state to expend any taxpayer dollars to fund civil offense prosecutions. The music industry has already managed to push their enforcement onto taxpayers via laws such as DMCA etc. Can't have this be done again, and with wider reach.

mrbungie 2y ago
Legalities don't make them any less hypocritical. Their strategy right now is to socialize the negative externalities (copyright does not protect anything from them) and capitalize the gains (ToS says you can't use their outputs). PS: I do understand your point. Using taxpayer money would be even worse.
- isomorphic 2y ago
  "We have no moat. But we are well-capitalized, so in classic early-mover monopolist fashion we'll try to pull the ladder up, then use funds to bri--er, lobby--the government into smacking down climbers."
- benterix 2y ago
  If I understand their strategy, it's to limit the use of LLMs to American-based companies, by saying that it is dangerous (when used remotely) and illigal (when using remote models). So they strive to make it so that all American companies use American models whereas government agencies use their dedicated gov infra.
  - true_religion 2y ago
    Government agencies would use dedicated infra anyways. Don’t many European governments insist on EU segregated cloud providers or open source software to avoid having critical infrastructure be under US control? And the US is an official ally, whereas China is not.
    - benterix 2y ago
      It seems to make sense but when you look at the dynamics of it, if you legally lock organizations in this way, the Americans will be the only one using expensive models and the rest of the world would be using cheap Chinese models. This wouldn't be great for the USA in general.
Gigachad 2y ago
I'm sure Microsofts scrapers read the ToS of every website they scraped to make sure it wasn't a ToS violation.
cameldrv 2y ago
Lots of websites have a TOS. Do you think OpenAI's scraper reads all of them and follows all of the terms?
- sdenton4 2y ago
  ChatGPT seems pretty knowledgeable about Spotify's TOS, for example... So no way for the bot to plead ignorance. :) "Hey, ChatGPT, what are the terms of service for Spotify?" "I can't provide the full, up-to-date terms of service for Spotify, but I can give you an overview of some key points typically included. For the most accurate and comprehensive information, I recommend visiting Spotify’s official website and reading their Terms of Service directly. That said, here are some common points that are usually part of streaming platforms' terms: 1. *Account Creation and Use*: Users need to create an account to access Spotify’s services, and must provide accurate, up-to-date information. They’re responsible for maintaining the security of their account. 2. *Subscription Plans*: Spotify offers different subscription tiers (Free, Premium, Family, etc.). Terms often specify the limitations of each tier, such as access to ads, offline listening, and music quality. 3. *Content Usage*: Spotify provides users with access to music, podcasts, and other content. However, the usage is typically for personal, non-commercial purposes only. Users are not allowed to download, share, or redistribute content unless Spotify allows it (like through the Share button or via a playlist). 4. *Licensing and Intellectual Property*: Spotify owns or has licenses for the content available on the platform. Users are granted a limited, non-exclusive license to access and use the service, but they don’t own the content they listen to. 5. *Privacy*: Spotify collects data, including usage patterns and preferences, which they may use for things like recommendations, advertisements, and analytics. Their privacy policy will detail what information is collected and how it’s used. 6. *Cancellation and Termination*: Either party (Spotify or the user) can terminate the service agreement. Users can cancel their subscription anytime, but Spotify may also suspend or terminate accounts for violations of their terms. 7. *Disclaimers and Limitations of Liability*: Spotify usually limits its liability in case of issues like service interruptions, data loss, or content inaccuracies. 8. *Modifications*: Spotify may update or change its Terms of Service at any time, and users are typically notified of these changes. Continued use of the service after changes indicates acceptance of the updated terms. 9. *Governing Law*: There’s often a clause specifying which country’s laws govern disputes related to the terms, and how disputes will be handled (for example, through arbitration). If you're interested in the full details, you can check Spotify’s official site or app, where their Terms of Service are readily available for review."
rspoerri 2y ago
Everything is copyrighted in some countries. The swiss urheberrecht is generated automatically upon creation of the object. You dont have to add © or add it to a register. You cannot transfer the urheberrecht, only usages of your object.

joe_the_user 2y ago

And I'd just add the quote from the non-paywalled fragment is "Microsoft’s security researchers in the fall observed individuals they believe may be linked to DeepSeek exfiltrating a large amount of data using the OpenAI application programming interface, or API" IE, Indeed, "improperly" here is exactly the same "improperly" that a site owner applies to any bulk downloader. So... Scrape not lest ye be scraped, one law for me... etc

vrighter 2y ago
You can't be "exfiltrating data" from an api that you pay for access to. That's just called "using what you paid for". Exfiltration is when you extract internal data that's private to the company.
- joe_the_user 2y ago
  Indeed, I think MS was trying to use the scariest term they could come up with. To belabor the point a bit, "we train, you exfiltrate" etc.

lowlevel 2y ago

Yeah… Gonna file this under Who cares or Good for them….

bodegajed 2y ago

I'm not surprised. This is the expected behavior of a monopolist.

kragen 2y ago

AI model output is not copyrightable, though presumably that will change soon.

quickslowdown 2y ago

These guys need to pick a damn lane, is it ok to steal data to train your chatbot or not? You can't have it both ways.