10 ms·
And what are ASML and the Netherlands in general getting out of it?
by usrnm 2y ago
And what are ASML and the Netherlands in general getting out of it?
- openrisk 2y agoLots of trips to Silicon Valley to learn the "secrets" of being masters of the digital universe. Somehow it never leads to anything :-)
- rtkalnb 2y ago[flagged]
- tristanj 2y agoThey don't have a choice. ASML licenses the intellectual property for EUV lithography from the US government. Therefore they follow US export control laws on EUV machines.
- belter 2y ago> The US government owns the intellectual property for ASML's EUV lithography. This is false.
- tristanj 2y agoFrom the wikipedia page on EUV: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_ultraviolet_lithography https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_ultraviolet_lithogra... > To address the challenge of EUV lithography, researchers at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, and Sandia National Laboratories were funded in the 1990s to perform basic research into the technical obstacles. The results of this successful effort were disseminated via a public/private partnership Cooperative R&D Agreement (CRADA) with the invention and rights wholly owned by the US government, but licensed and distributed under approval by DOE and Congress.[3] The CRADA consisted of a consortium of private companies and the Labs, manifested as an entity called the Extreme Ultraviolet Limited Liability Company (EUV LLC).[4] > In 2001 SVG was acquired by ASML, leaving ASML as the sole benefactor of the critical technology. Unless the situation has changed, the IP is still owned by the US government, and is licensed to ASML through their acquisition of Silicon Valley Group.
- dkjaudyeqooe 2y agoThose early patents have likely expired.
- count 2y agoThe ITAR licensing around their export from the United States and the conditions under which they may be (including flowing down the restrictions clauses) don't expire, generally.
- belter 2y agoFrom your own reference ( note this had 18 years of R&D by ASML ): "By 2018, ASML succeeded in deploying the intellectual property from the EUV-LLC after several decades of developmental research, with incorporation of European-funded EUCLIDES (Extreme UV Concept Lithography Development System) and long-standing partner German optics manufacturer ZEISS and synchrotron light source supplier Oxford Instruments..."
- ckastner 2y ago> By 2018, ASML succeeded in deploying the intellectual property from the EUV-LLC That explicitly says that the IP is with EUV-LLC (edit: which is of U.S. origin).
- belter 2y agoIn 1998, ASML formed a European industrial R&D consortium dubbed ‘EUCLIDES’ (Extreme UV Concept Lithography Development System) with ZEISS and Oxford Instruments. Then EUCLIDES joined forces with the American EUV LLC in 1999... "The CRADA consisted of a consortium of private companies and the Labs, manifested as an entity called the Extreme Ultraviolet Limited Liability Company (EUV LLC)."
- ckastner 2y agoYou keep pointing out European involvement as if that somehow displaced American involvement (and thus continued U.S. control, the subject of this thread). Again, your first quote explicitly states that EUV-LLC was American. The second quote refers to the "Labs", which in this case were the Lawrence Livermore, Sandia, and Berkeley National Laboratories. Apple may have developed the M4 from the ground up but they still licensed the ISA from ARM.
- amelius 2y ago> The US government owns Curious how that happened.
- belter 2y agoIt's not true.
- alephnerd 2y agoIt is in the sense that the LLNL owns the EUV IP that ASML implemented, and ASML is using this IP after inheriting it from AMD+Motorola who sold off their stake in EUV LLC. All NatLab-Private partnerships have this kind of a rider. ASML is already starting another partnership with LLNL on next-gen EUV.
- KeplerBoy 2y agoHow did this happen? Why does the US gov own the IP of technology developed in the netherlands by a dutch company?
- jmisavage 2y agoIt’s because the US National Laboratories developed all the initial technology to enable EUV. ASML just builds the machines.
- belter 2y agoWhy would state something that is not correct. Cymer is a fully owned company by ASML.
- ckastner 2y agoIt seems that you are confusing ownership of the company with licensing of the IP it uses. AMD produces their own x86 under IP licensed by Intel (and vice versa).
- belter 2y agoIt seems you are confusing the details and conditions of a contract never disclosed publicly, of base research, where a EU based company spent 20 years and billions of EU funds to create a workable product. In any case if the US adrenaline fueled diplomacy, starts violating hundreds of years old borders of it's allies, respect for ambiguous IP Laws, will be pretty low in the list of priorities. :-)
- ckastner 2y ago> It seems you are confusing the details and conditions of a contract never disclosed publicly The details have never been disclosed but it is well known that this agreement fell within the domain of national security and export controls. Here's a press release [1] directly from ASML that references these export controls. Even though this PR actually relaxing DUV controls with respect to the U.S., it reaffirms that "EUV systems are also subject to license requirements." [1]: https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2024/dutch-governments-updated-export-license-requirement https://www.asml.com/en/news/press-releases/2024/dutch-gover...
- frodo8sam 2y agoThe supply chain for these machines is heavily dependent on the US and the Netherlands is heavily dependent on US security guarantees, just like the rest of Europe.
- rkajg 2y ago[flagged]
- jimbohn 2y agoLet me guess, russia is a misunderstood friend, right?
- lokar 2y agoYes comrade, the Tsar is your friend!
- llamaimperative 2y agoEurope has its own nuclear forces Also LOL @ the US being the destabilizing force with Russia.
- krisoft 2y ago> Europe has its own nuclear forces That is not really true. Some european countries have nuclear forces. France and the UK. There are also countries who host American nuclear weapons, but they can't arm them without the authorisation of the US Department of Defense. (Belgium, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, and Turkey) Europe as an entity does not have its own nuclear force. (It is hard to even know what that would mean.)
- l5870uoo9y 2y agoAs I understand the UK nuclear deterrence is highly dependable on the US, unlike the french.
- neximo64 2y agoCurious who you think uses these devices and who designs and distributes the chips. Without the American companies not sure the benefits would be the same to the Netherlands or to ASML.
- PeterStuer 2y agoThey don't get Nordstreamed.
- AndyMcConachie 2y agoWe already got Nordstreamed by Nordstream.
- dkjaudyeqooe 2y agoThey get to avoid sanctions and other consequences. It's not meant to be equitable. But there are still benefits to NL since China is their adversary too.
- tmnvdb 2y agoI don't think those conversations get that far. The Netherlands is one of the most "transatlantic" countries in Europe and values the US/NATO relationship highly. In that sense not much different from Taiwan.
- vasco 2y agoArticle from 2001: What ASML agreed to do to win U.S. approval of SVG merger > VELDHOVEN, the Netherlands — To win U.S. clearance in the purchase of Silicon Valley Group Inc., officials at ASM Lithography Holding N.V. agreed to a number of restrictions and obligations aimed at protecting lens technology and maintaining operations in the United States. But the Dutch company's CEO today said many of those requirements are compatible with ASML's original goals in buying SVG. > ASML today announced it had finally cleared U.S. review of its planned purchase of San Jose-based SVG about seven months after announcing plans to acquire the lithography supplier for $1.6 billion in stock. Completion of the merger had been stalled for several months because of concerns about U.S. national security and protection of defense-related technologies. The U.S. government agreement now clears the way for ASML to complete its takeover of SVG within the next few weeks, according to officials in Veldhoven (see today’s story). > “Clearly any CEO would like a completely free hand, with no obligations,” said ASML chief executive officer Doug Dunn, during a conference call today following the announcement of the agreement. Dunn said a free hand was “never going to be the case with this particular merger/takeover. The U.S. government took a very strong interest in this because, in their opinion, it very clearly effected national security.” > Topping the list of requirements in the agreement is a promise by ASML to make a “good faith effort” to sell SVG's Tinsley Laboratories subsidiary within six months of completing the acquisition of Silicon Valley Group. Tinsley's lens-polishing technology was one of the major concerns blocking ASML from finishing its purchase of SVG. The article continues: https://www.eetimes.com/what-asml-agreed-to-do-to-win-u-s-approval-of-svg-merger/ https://www.eetimes.com/what-asml-agreed-to-do-to-win-u-s-ap...
- rtlknb 2y agoI would like to see what happens if Germany imposes export controls on Pfizer 20 years from now because Biontech developed the mrna vaccine sold by Pfizer.
- saturn8601 2y agoEveryone switches over to Moderna's offerings?
- int0x29 2y ago
- 6510 2y agoASML gets to see the Chinese government sink the big money into rendering them obsolete, they get to see their stock implode and to shut down RND. But the Netherlands will get to see ASML pack their bags and leave. This of course besides further unpredictable retaliation from China. We also love it when our government takes marching orders from the US.
- AndyMcConachie 2y agoMaybe the kid of some ASML exec gets to go to Harvard? Who knows. In the last batch of negotiations they never made the deal public. These deals get made by elites and the public never learns the details.
- skrebbel 2y ago> Maybe the kid of some ASML exec gets to go to Harvard? FWIW this is not a very common ambition people have here in NL. Besides the implied blatant corruption, which I don't think is the case here, I strongly doubt you can bribe any Dutch executive with something as uncool as a bought Harvard admission.
- skrebbel 2y agoThis is just a small country getting strong-armed by the US. You can be as pro NATO, pro US, pro "transatlantic relations" as you can and they'll still screw you over. Seriously I can't wait for the EU to get their shit together so we can stop being such pushovers.
- lokar 2y agoThen be prepared to spend 5%+ of gdp on defense, or become a Russian satellite.
- bigmattystyles 2y agoIs that so bad if that’s the cost of independence? Go after profiteers ruthlessly however.
- lokar 2y agoI think it would be a better system (as an American)
- mschild 2y ago5%+ would likely put Europe ahead of the US in spending on military. Even 3%+ would be such a significant amount of noney that almost noone except the US could compete. That said, its a price we should pay instead of relying on the US as a partner.
- itishappy 2y agoThey're allowed to export the wafer handling systems (roughly half of their big litho machine) currently manufactured in Wilton Connecticut.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoWell for one, the EUV technology ASML is known for was licensed to ASML under terms dictated by the US, since it is literally a result of US government funded research.
- mitthrowaway2 2y agoI wonder to what extent ASML management looks at Kawasaki Heavy Industries' contracts to build high speed rail in China and says, "that's the outcome we want!"
- datadeft 2y agoWe can carry the flag for the US in the war of trying to dominate the planet. I think it is a worthy goal.
- yapyap 2y agoI feel like it’s one of those things where not complying and finding out is not a good option, especially with the disregard and disrespect the US has shown towards the ICC I don’t think doing petty things that inconvenience the Dutch economy would be unthinkable, with the new president I think saying the quiet part out loud, - hell, screaming the quiet part as loud as you can - might be the new norm
- mg794613 2y agoThis has been going on long before Trump even thought about going into politics. There is a reason the US does not recognize the ICC. And we also know they have the plans ready to free any soldier from the Netherlands _if_ we were to arrest a American soldier. And the US _will_ execute that plan. And the Netherlands _will_ sit back and let it happen. See, the world is a big schoolyard, and America is tired of shaking people down for protection money and threatens us "to start protecting ourselves". I don't like Trump, but I can't deny he accelerates events that should have started a while back. Very good for our future, not so much for the US. But that's what they voted for.
- cscurmudgeon 2y ago> shaking people down for protection money This is false though. No one pays US money for defense. The 2% spending is on their own industry. The analogy breaks down. If anything, the US pays to support other countries/allies.
- bravo33 2y agothey kind of do though since that money goes into the NATO money pool and purchases weapons with US of A specifications .... ahem I meant NATO Specifications.
- impossiblefork 2y agoI don't think that's true. There's a reason the law you're talking about only authorizes the president to do it. The lawmakers know that what they by passing the law are threatening is crazy, so they put it in the hands of the president, who they understand will never use it. They make sure there's a strong gate separating them and the other dog, then they bark. They know that actually trying to extract people from the Hague would look something like the Battle of Hostomel on steroids and would permanently and irrevocably damage relations and they would do nothing of the sort.
- porridgeraisin 2y agoA lot of the IP in what ASML does is held by KLA, Intel, IBM, etc. So america has quite a lot of say in it.
- jnurmine 2y agoYes, but their say will only work as long as both parties feel that the other party honors their contractual obligations. Hearing the inaugural speech of President Trump, I feel that some treaties and contracts might soon be worth less than the paper they were written on, if breaking those somehow gives national benefits in the quest to "make America great again". That is how Mr. Trump's speech came across to me anyway. Perhaps and hopefully that is untrue, I'm not a native speaker, so perhaps I lost some subtle nuances.
- AlgorithmicTime 2y ago[dead]
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> what are ASML and the Netherlands in general getting out of it? Wow, the conspiracy theories in this thread are nuts. The Netherlands is a port economy and agricultural exporter. The U.S. Navy protects the sea lanes it relies on. The Netherlands have been a reliable and natural American ally because our interests align--particularly when it comes to a war as potentially devastating to international trade as a Pacific conflict. (Zooming in to ASML, their largest customer is TSMC.)
- barrenko 2y agoIt's an incredibly short-sighted, and might I say, such a European question.
- selimthegrim 2y agoTheir intelligence agency might as well be a part of Five Eyes at this point.
- CalRobert 2y agoWell, they're a pretty big employer, and not in the Randstad.
- nradov 2y agoThe Netherlands gets to continue purchasing F-35A fighters and participating in the NATO nuclear sharing arrangement. This is the ultimate guarantee of sovereignty which trumps any mere commercial concerns. Quid pro quo.
- tonfa 2y ago> The Netherlands gets to continue purchasing F-35A fighters Is that a benefit? I got the impression some countries are rather pressured by the US to spend their money on US military equipment (instead of alternatives) rather than the reverse.
- nradov 2y agoWhich alternatives specifically? The F-35 is the only 5th-generation multirole fighter available for purchase today. The Netherlands could probably negotiate a purchase of obsolete European fighters such as the Saab Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon, or Dassault Rafale. Those are adequate for the air sovereignty mission but not much else. They aren't significantly cheaper, are way behind in most capabilities, and aren't survivable against a modern air defense system. There are European consortiums working on 6th-generation fighters but at this point those are paper airplanes and it will be decades before they reach volume production (if ever). Most importantly, the F-35A is the only available platform certified for nuclear weapons delivery so as long as the Netherlands wants to continue participating in the NATO nuclear sharing arrangement there is no alternative. Germany looked into getting the Typhoon certified for the nuclear strike mission but gave up due to high costs and purchased the F-35A instead.