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'Once-in-a-century' discovery reveals luxury of Pompeii
- braunjohnson 2y ago[dead]
- noduerme 2y agoIt's amazing what people built 2000 years ago, and sort of depressing too. I went over to a friend's house recently who had gotten a new outdoor hot tub. That thing isn't going to last 3 winters let alone a volcanic eruption.
- marginalia_nu 2y agoWealthy Romans had a bit of a culture-boner for leaving a lasting legacy, maintaining the dynasty, and that sort of thing, and conversely often relied on ancestral clout to borrow credibility from. I don't think anyone today would try to base their credibility on being the distant relative of Ben Franklin in the way an upstart roman might invoke their familiar relationship with Scipio Africanus. Makes sense they built stuff to last in such an environment.
- beardyw 2y agoI think also they were very much more in touch with their own mortality than is common today.
- tejohnso 2y ago> In some accounts of the Roman triumph, a companion or public slave would stand behind or near the triumphant general during the procession and remind him from time to time of his own mortality https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_mori https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memento_mori
- pjmlp 2y agoOther thing would not be expected in a war driven society, where being a legionary was quite common, and very few managed to return back (alive) to civil life after doing their part on the assigned legion.
- ElevenLathe 2y agoIt was also impossible to make things out of fiberglass, but hand-carved stone was actually available.
- marginalia_nu 2y agoSo was non-permanent building materials such as wood, to be fair.
- toyg 2y agoNot really, that's the resource that disappeared faster than anything, being the simplest to get. Mediterranean forests have never been particularly dense, already the Greeks were moving lots of wood on the sea from the best locations. Stone was easier to get from the areas around Rome.
- sandworm101 2y agoSurvivorship bias. The only artifacts we see are the ones that were meant to last. Those Romans who did not build for eternity have not been remembered, which distorts our view of thier society. It is akin to classic car enthusiasts who think cars were made better way back when. They think that because they only see the survivors. They do not see all the junk that history has rightly forgotten.
- Anotheroneagain 2y agoThe city was buried in two days, if anything we may not see the most valuable possessions.
- sandworm101 2y agoSomething like 90% of romans did not live in cities. Survivorship bias again. We judge them buy the solid cities, or lord's manor houses. We have lost the mud/brick/wood farms where the vast majority lived.
- Anotheroneagain 2y agoI'm sorry, but you're getting into "I'm smart and want to argue a point" territory. Nothing of that applies to Pompeii, as it was buried by a volcano, and everyone and everything that wasn't taken as the people were runnung away stayed as it was. It's basically the Pripyat of Classical Antiquity
- YouWhy 2y ago> That thing isn't going to last 3 winters let alone a volcanic eruption. Could it have been a case of survivorship bias? I.e., perhaps jankier facilities have been built at Pompeii but simply did not make it at all or were not prioritized for excavation?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- 4gotunameagain 2y agoPeople are downvoting you because it is simply due to the different materials and building methodologies of the past. Things took much longer to build and were much more expensive, but they were very durable as an effect. There were no plastic hot tubs in Pompeii that burned when the pyroclastic flow swept past.
- shawabawa3 2y agoThere were no plastic ones but there were very probably some wooden ones, or other luxurious wooden items which were destroyed without a trace and we'd never know
- perihelions 2y agoI mean, they certainly knew how to make wooden water containers: they wrote it down. This context is dye-making rather than baths, - "...This water is boiled with an equal quantity of pure water, and is then poured into large wooden reservoirs [original: "piscinas ligneas"]. Across these reservoirs there are a number of immovable beams, to which cords are fastened, and then sunk into the water beneath by means of stones; upon which, a slimy..." https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/62704/pg62704-images.html#BOOK_XXXIV_CHAP_32 https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/62704/pg62704-images.ht... ("Chalcanthum, or shoemakers’ black: sixteen remedies" (77)) https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0138%3Abook%3D34%3Achapter%3D48 https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext...
- therealpygon 2y ago
- Aniket-N 2y agoWell, this bath house was owned by some one ultra wealthy. There were multiple people (possibly slaves), just toiling away to keep the furnace going. Today a hot tub can be had by millions.
- perihelions 2y agoIsn't it the exact opposite? Every single house in the modern world has running water—it wouldn't be code-compliant, in any functioning country, to not have that. That was a high-status luxury in Rome. (It was even a largesse of the Emperor to be gifted[0] the right to have a private plumbing connection to an aqueduct—something considered highly desirable in that world). The fact people today build inexpensive plastic Thermae as a novelty object, reflects how thoroughly we've solved all the *actually hard* problems of water infrastructure. The formerly expensive parts are now unimaginably cheap, so, we're exploring new places to cut costs that we previously wouldn't think of. (It's akin to how computer keyboards are now 10x cheaper and junkier than they were in the 1960's–1980's (?), because, the other problems having been solved, that became a new focus of economization. No one would think twice about paying (the modern equivalent of) $100 for a well-engineered mechanical keyboard, in an era when the corresponding PC went for $5,000. The expensive object reflects an economic difficulty elsewhere; and the expensive Roman stonework baths perhaps reflected the costliness of water in general). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_aqueduct#Distribution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_aqueduct#Distribution
- mschild 2y agoI don't think they are lamenting the fact that these things have reduced in price but rather significantly in quality as well. There is something to be said about price reductions, but at some point the quality lowers to a point where it has become a waste of resources as the product you bought will seize working within a short time frame. I've always made this unfortunate experience with shoes. With good care, 100 Euro sneakers would last me about 2 years. A pair of handcrafted leather shoes I bought 12 years ago are still going strong. While the leather shoes were almost 4 times the price, they've paid for themselves at this point.
- pdfernhout 2y agoObligatory mention: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory "The Sam Vimes "Boots" theory of socioeconomic unfairness, often called simply the boots theory, is an economic theory that people in poverty have to buy cheap and subpar products that need to be replaced repeatedly, proving more expensive in the long run than more expensive items. The term was coined by English fantasy writer Sir Terry Pratchett in his 1993 Discworld novel Men at Arms. In the novel, Sam Vimes, the captain of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch, illustrates the concept with the example of boots. The theory has been cited with regard to analyses of the prices of boots, fuel prices, and economic conditions in the United Kingdom." Tangentially related on the bigger picture: https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1280581-the-state-of-the-art https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/1280581-the-state-of-t... "Money is a sign of poverty. (Iain M. Banks)"
- infecto 2y agoYou could still build a hot tub out of tile in such a way that it will last for a very long time.
- throw0101a 2y ago> That thing isn't going to last 3 winters let alone a volcanic eruption. He can have a hot tub that could survive a volcanic eruption, he just has to to pay for it. Is your friend willing to allocate the resources, or is he happy with 'good enough'?
- matkoniecz 2y agoAbility to buy cheap stuff, accessible to regular people and not ultra-wealthy is new. You can still spend massive piles of money on long-lasting stuff. This hot tub cost was likely higher than lifetime earnings of average citizen. Also, its cost was likely greater than what would cost to buy several slaves. And likely was in fact built by slaves. Of all things I see nothing to be depressed about here given our situation.
- ASalazarMX 2y agoNothing stops any modern person from building in this long-lasting style if they want to; except for the incredible expense, that is. In your defense, I still think your friend could do better than a three-year outdoor hot tub, but that was them being unnecessarily cheap.
- tumsfestival 2y agoKind of depressing how some people two millennia ago had bigger homes than most people alive today. Then again, if they were alive today their homes would be 10x the size.
- YouWhy 2y agoThe home in question is thought to have belonged to the wealthiest family around - which, for a society where economics are generational and local, practically means super-rich. In modern societies such super rich people flock to major cities, but in pre-industrial societies relocating would leave familial assets under-attended. Accordingly a well adjusted wealthy person would arrange for an excellent standard of living adjacently to their possessions
- marginalia_nu 2y agoFrom what I understand it, affluent Romans typically moved back and forth between countryside villas in the summer, and a smaller residence in the city during the winter. Also Roman economics were not really very local. The Romans had a large road network and were very mobile and traded even farther. You have for example Pelagius, a figure in church history, who was born in Britain and died in Egypt.
- chgs 2y agoThe side of the planet 2000 years ago was the same as today. The population today is a thousand times larger.
- Smithalicious 2y agoEstimates for the world population 2000 years ago seem to be some 150M-300M
- matkoniecz 2y agoAnd in turn if you take random/average/low-income citizen and compare their situation (like their home) with what equivalent has now, their situation would be much better nowadays. Even if you compare homes of ultrawealthy then and now I expect that most would take homes of XXI century.
- qq66 2y ago"The bodies belonged to a woman, aged between 35 and 50, who was clutching jewellery and coins" Funny to see that some things never change. You're about to get vaporized by a pyroclastic avalanche and your first thought is to grab your bling.
- mimentum 2y agoProbably were prayer beads or something. Still 'bling' I guess.
- melling 2y agoNo banking system. I imagine without any money in ancient times, you could end up in trouble quickly.
- worldsayshi 2y agoThey must've had banks. I don't think you can have organised society without some form of banks.
- Terr_ 2y agoLocal banks don't necessarily mean your balance would be safe if the city were destroyed.
- neuronic 2y agoRoman bank offering geo redundance is probably not what I was thinking about this morning. "italia-south-1 was hit by a volcano yesterday, we are failing over to dalmatia-west-1 until issues are resolved. There may be some latency with obtaining coins today."
- Terr_ 2y ago"Experts do not believe the sudden liquidity of local currency will help this issue."
- dzonga 2y agoalso shows - how on a basic comparison some rich people back then lived way better than some poor folks do today in terms of assets. though in terms of relative access to goods poor folks today are better off.
- bmicraft 2y ago> though in terms of relative access to goods poor folks today are better off. What's that meant to imply? The people starving today certainly aren't better off than those wealthy Romans were. Not in any way other then a theoretical "if they stopped being poor" sense.
- Oarch 2y agoWhat always jars me the most is how modern ancient Roman taps and valves look.
- kibwen 2y agoAlternatively, you can consider how ancient our modern taps and valves look, and not in a bad way. Sometimes engineering problems get solved once and don't have a pressing need to be revisited.
- potato3732842 2y agoExactly. You can see this in all sorts of things. Sure an clean sheet design of a adjustable wrench or semi trailer coupling generic roller chain or whatever other 100yo item might net a few % improvement in some areas by no longer having to design to the manufacturing tech and material costs of 100 years ago but often times the ecosystem that standardization enables is worth more than a couple percent of improvement somewhere.
- araes 2y agoCame here to post almost the same. Always have this impression from modern media that Roman civilization was thatch roofs and aqueducts with maybe a hole in the wall that poured water out or a well you went to the local square. May have been that way for the poor, or the less status enabled, like many commenters have noticed. Yet it's still a dissonance that such high quality piping, boiler rooms, insulated engineered waterworks, and other similar ideas were available. Even if in limited quantities.
- dboreham 2y agoQuick note for anyone who hasn't visited, and has an interest in western civilization: Pompeii, and the somewhat more impressive nearby Herculaneum are well worth visiting at least once. It's really not possible to have the experience remotely from pictures or videos, not the same as being physically immersed. Best to avoid the high summer due to heat and load, but go then if you have no alternative. Herculaneum in particular is never that busy because harder to get to and less publicity.
- dottjt 2y agoI don't know if this is a silly train of thought, but won't Pompeii just get buried again in the future? Is it a waste of time to try and unbury it?
- teleforce 2y ago>Archaeologists have discovered a sumptuous private bathhouse - potentially the largest ever found there - complete with hot, warm and cold rooms, exquisite artwork, and a huge plunge pool. Essentially this Roman luxury mansion has an indoor replica of a typical communal Roman bath place. Communal Roman bath normally has three section hot, warm and cold, and the latter so called frigidarium normally come with a pool [1]. The ancient Egyption, is as ancient to Roman, as to our modern world to Roman, and the rich ancient Egyptions typically have pool inside their luxury mansions. Fun facts early ancient Egyptions didn't call their kings Pharaoh only the later ancient Egyption kings are called Pharaoh literally meaning "Great House" that almost certainly has pool inside their mansion or palace since swimming is one of their favorite free time or sport activities [2]. As for the modern world, when my friends and relatives who're recently retiring with excess money to spend, the first thing they did are installing permanent private pools inside their new renovated retirement houses. It seems in house pools are human innate luxury craving items that common across time and culture. [1] Frigidarium: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigidarium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigidarium [2] Ancient Egyptian Sport: https://www.sis.gov.eg/section/10/733?lang=en-us https://www.sis.gov.eg/section/10/733?lang=en-us