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JPMorgan Workers Ponder Union in Wake of Return-to-Office Mandate
- dmitrygr 2y agoI genuinely wish them luck and I hope it works.
- SSJPython 2y agoOn the one hand, capitalists and business owners want people to have more children in order to keep the economy functioning. On the other hand, they want to make work as inconvenient as possible and want work to encompass the life of the employee. It's becoming increasingly clear that there is a trade-off and an inverse relationship between career growth and family formation.
- TrackerFF 2y agoI think RTO mandates will be the straw that broke the camel's back, for a lot of Americans. Workers in sectors that previously wouldn't even think about unionizing, are now having serious discussions. Going back to commutes, wasting time, for no obvious reason - yeah, that did wake up people. EDIT: I'm talking about rigid 5 days a week RTO policy. As other have pointed out, having a flexible WFH policy is often "good enough" for most people. Not all want 100% WFH, but taking away the flexibility of WFH a couple of days a week, if you want, feels like a shitty deal.
- bloomingkales 2y agoAmerican society doesn't want to accept that a lot of our problems happen because the parents aren't home. Michael Moore had an interesting scene in Bowling for Columbine where he showed a 6 year old shooter's mother had to work hours away daily and wasn't home. Mine and most of my friends parents always had to be outside of the house during our formative years. We had very robust economy in the 90s/2000s that pretty much sacrificed family time to get it done. This is truly a past way of being. A real past, we cannot go back. We have a way of solving this for many workers and any company not in tune with this beautiful thing is unacceptable to my heart (and hopefully many others).
- rpcope1 2y agoI agree but would take it further: a very aggressive income tax on any non-primary earner in a household that has a total income above 2 or 3 times the median wage. I know there's a lot of "line must go up" types that salivate at the idea of maximizing worker participation rate and GDP, but I think life is probably better when the thumb is put on the scale such that only one breadwinner is encouraged (no matter their gender).
- dowager_dan99 2y agoIf you think that wouldn't be the man you've got a rude awakening headed your way. Thanks for setting back women & equality 50+ years...
- dowager_dan99 2y agoWait - how can you say remote is comparable with in-office, then tell me a work from home mother is going to look after her 6-yr-old while doing her job and not split her attention & efforts?
- bloomingkales 2y agoBeing near the child is important. Our economy was so insane that a new mother/father was not be able to spend the first few years with that child even though we had every means of allowing them to do so (for many workers, not all). Being there to pickup the kid from school is important. Getting lunch with your SO is important. Being in your neighborhood is important. Those two hours of sleep is important. What nonsense perks can a company can offer me compared to things like that. I don't even know if you can pay me enough to go without that (If I have the means to get that, that's what I'll do).
- tombert 2y agoEven if she put in the exact same effort for the company, if she worked from home she might not have a multi-hour commute every day, which could still translate to more attention being paid to the six-year-old.
- bko 2y agoSo why do companies insist? If it has no meaningful impact on productivity, and workers don't like it (including a lot of managers), why push it? That's why I believe that companies have some evidence (or belief) that work from home employees are not as productive, enough so to wage this political battle and pay loads in office expenses.
- teddyh 2y agoIt is extremely generous of you to assume that those who push for RTO have the company’s interest in mind.
- bko 2y agoOkay, so what's the point? Just to piss of employees and waste money on real-estate and snacks?
- linkjuice4all 2y agoOrganizations consist of many individuals with different motivations, so it's hard to ascribe a single reason to an individual or group. Here are some of the real and assumed reasons that companies are pushing for this: - They have accepted tax breaks or other financial benefits from cities tied to specific headcounts or jobs created - They are locked into longer term leases or own the building outright and want to make use of their sunk costs - They found that (on average?) remote employees are less productive - They want to encourage employees to find another employer - It's a control/showing-off thing There seems to be a financial motivation behind this and apparently employee happiness/productivity doesn't appear to be part of it. I [anecdata warning] don't see employers mentioning any sort of commute benefit/subsidy for returning to the office nor do I see 'remote employment' touted as a benefit so these decisions are being made without any consideration for employees. I guess pick from one of the above and figure out which way a company stands to benefit - there's your answer.
- bko 2y ago> They have accepted tax breaks or other financial benefits from cities tied to specific headcounts or jobs created I don't think that's how tax cuts work. No matter the incentives, it's cheaper to not have office space than to have office space and get some write off. I doubt some city is saying "For every $100 of office expenses, we'll give you $200 of tax credits". If anything, companies track days worked from home so they don't have to pay as much city taxes > They are locked into longer term leases or own the building outright and want to make use of their sunk costs You can always sublease and many do. There are also variable expenses (insurance, maintenance, etc) > They found that (on average?) remote employees are less productive This is my belief > They want to encourage employees to find another employer Maybe, as a filtering mechanism. Kind of like soft layoffs, but its very risky. > It's a control/showing-off thing Also very risky because you just piss people off and pay to do it.
- knallfrosch 2y agoI've heard "The Great Resignation" only 2 years ago about quiet quitters and people who would switch employers in a heartbeat when made to RTO. The opposite has happened. Workers are craving jobs harder than since the financial crisis.
- Finnucane 2y ago"We're spending a bucket of money on a new office tower, and you're damn well going to it."
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- exabrial 2y agoI generally like working in the office. I get more completed, I enjoy my coworkers, communication is easier, and I'm visible to management. If it came down to RTO, or a 4 day work week, It would be an unbelievably simple choice: 4 day week.
- greenchair 2y agowhen people say 4 day week, do they mean 4 10 hour days or work 32 hours a week?
- exabrial 2y ago32
- stinkbutt 2y agoextroverts are not going to win this war
- nielsbot 2y agoCan you explain this? I don't understand the point you're making.
- k8sToGo 2y agoI have an extroverted colleague and they really like to chat and make events and go for walks and .... These people probably are miserable in a remote only setting.
- stinkbutt 2y agoWFH debuffs/nerfs an extrovert's primary weapon attribute (soft skills). this gives an implicit visibility bonus to introverts.
- 0xcafefood 2y agohttps://archive.ph/PI7vb https://archive.ph/PI7vb
- drjasonharrison 2y agothank you. Also, were you aware that 0xcafef00d is not included in the wikipedia article on hexspeak? is 0xCAFEFOOD used as a magic number in any systems? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexspeak https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexspeak
- nine_zeros 2y agoMy unioned wife lives a life I can only dream of. The respect, the dignity of her job makes me feel like I made the wrong choice by getting into tech. Unionization is the answer. For a long time, tech workers were gaslighted into thinking that unions will not let them get paid high salaries. Guess what, without unions, tech workers don't even have job stability. Forget high salaries. Vote for unions.
- nielsbot 2y agoTo see pro-union comments like this on Hacker News gives me hope.
- svillar 2y agoSame boat as you and agree 100%.
- compiler-guy 2y agoTech workers may not have job stability (but compare to say, farm workers), but it’s a pretty tough argument to say that they don’t have high salaries. Even for the highly educated like civil engineers and librarians, tech workers out earn most of them. Unionizing tech workers may or may not be a good idea, but finances would be comparatively down the list.
- rcbdev 2y agoI have never understood how an entire nation was so successfully brainwashed into being anti-union. In Austria, every year the unions negotiate salary increases for almost all job groups (IT, metal work, etc.) and this is very important to keep our wages at least up with inflation. No-one would ever think this is a bad idea here.
- EncomLab 2y agoThe key to me is the flexibility - I have the option of WFH 2 days per week, but most weeks I'm in the office 5 days (sometimes a half day on Saturday) because I am fortunate to have a "real office" with a door, a nice view, a stocked break area - and no home distractions. If I was still in a cube farm with a barely stocked vending machine (where I spent the vast majority of my career) I'd be using every WFH moment I could get. The key discussion should not be WFH vs. RTO - it should be why do people hate the office they are expected to return to?
- zeusk 2y agoI'm betting for a large part of the WFH crowd - commute and home prices (near the offices) are the biggest sticking points.
- smcleod 2y agoCommute, noise, lighting, desk setup, open plan offices, hot dealing and generally having to sit in some corporate office rather than my own home. I'm an adult - I'll work where I want and that will never been an office ever again.
- kjkjadksj 2y agoIt isn’t just the commute. Life is greatly simplified and improved when you can run the dishwasher or throw a load of laundry in during the day. God forbid you want to, you know, visit a business during business hours as well. Of course management doesn’t like to hear this. They’d rather you stare at a wall when there is nothing in front of you I guess.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- switch007 2y ago> why do people hate the office they are expected to return to? They hate it because it's designed to be hated. The discomfort is the point. You're meant to know your place and be reminded of it everyday.
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- 0xcafefood 2y agoLabor unions seem like the wrong model for organizing "knowledge workers." A professional association like the American Medical Association might be a better way to structure things. One difference is how they gain leverage. Labor unions seem to rely on the fact that they are the ones _right there_ who can work in a factory, clean a facility, etc. But capital sort of did an end run around some of that by literally packing factories up and shipping them overseas. That seems pretty easy to do to knowledge workers as well. At least to some degree and at some level. This is far outside anything I've read extensively about, and it'd be interesting to read more.
- PittleyDunkin 2y ago> Labor unions seem like the wrong model for organizing people in a lot of "knowledge workers." A professional association like the American Medical Association might be a better way to structure things. Please explain—knowledge workers are still workers and the same benefits that labor unions provide to other workers apply just as much here. Secondly, why would I ever care about a professional organization if I can't use it to collectively bargain? It doesn't seem to work this way for doctors; why would it work this way for us?
- dylan604 2y agoKnowledge workers do not need to be there in the office like the labor unions. This can be used both ways. The WFH crowd uses it say they can work from home. The GP is suggesting companies thinking that if we don't need in-office workers, why not just offshore it altogether?
- toomuchtodo 2y ago> why not just offshore it altogether? Policy equivalent to tariffs to make it unfavorable to offshore vs hiring onshore talent. I.R.C. §174 implements this concept with an amortization delta between US and non-US based development and R&D cost accounting, for example. "We can make you come into the office because we say so or we'll just offshore." might be challenging in the current zeitgeist. https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/174 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/174
- iugtmkbdfil834 2y agoOh fuck yes, let it happen. The entire finance industry will take note if it were to pass. Naturally, this means that JPM will take extraordinary efforts ( OWS level ) to ensure it does not come to pass.
- ChrisArchitect 2y agoRelated: JPMorgan reportedly ending remote work for more than 300k employees https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42669143 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42669143 JPMorgan Chase Disables Employee Comments After Return-to-Office Backlash https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42677491 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42677491
- 999900000999 2y agoI dislike RTO for one simple reason . I'm not at work to make friends, I'm not at work to chit chat. I'm not at work so we can talk about who won the last football game . I go to work in exchange for currency, which is required to acquire goods and services. All this other crap, all these holiday parties, all of this let's dance in diversity videos, no that's not what I'm here for . Most of the time coming to the office actually adds a bunch of unnecessary crap that is completely unneeded. If you can't get your job done remotely, what's the stop you from also slacking off in the office. I have to go back to the office for a while last year times were hard and I didn't have another option . We're just talking to each other, shooting the s**, and it was cool to meet some Junior Devs who were just starting their career. But none of that made me a more productive worker. If I had to think, I imagine the entire point of RTO mandates is to keep cities sustainable. If every single office job went remote, what's the point of a city like New York. Who's going to willingly pay $6,000 for an apartment, ride the trains for over an hour a day, if you can just sit at home in a much cheaper city . However, to quote a famous philosopher, it's a big club and you ain't in it. The powers that be one as many people in office chairs as possible, so they're real estate holdings appreciate in value. Billy Bob's bagels also benefits from this, although I'd imagine he's not able to have the same amount of pool as the real estate titans
- nickff 2y agoMaybe JPMorgan doesn't want employees like you; maybe they want employees who chit-chat, and become attached to their company, for various (non-kLoC) reasons. Not every workplace is for everyone.
- 999900000999 2y agoHell yeah, we can be a family up until the moment their automated performance tracking software flags me and I get let go!
- dowager_dan99 2y agoHave you noticed that those who come out hardest against RTO - or any change/revision that doesn't fit their desires - use the same, unbending absolute arguments they claim to be fighting? Like anyone who (gasp!) might want to work in the office is a slacker, there to shoot the shit and at the whim of useless managers and executives who just count asses in seats?
- HamsterDan 2y agoWorkers need to tread carefully here. If you there's no need to be in the office, what's to stop corporate from replacing you with an Indian that costs 1/3rd as much? Push back too hard on RTO and you may not have a job at all in five years.
- iugtmkbdfil834 2y agoShrug. In our latest meeting our leaders had no problems hiring 'outside hires' for random unexpected project resulting from them trying to stiff US vendor ( don't get me started on how that makes sense ). Adding those contractors with the amount of time spent in meetings, we likely have already spent more than the money that would be paid to the vendor, but I digress. Anyway, I am mentioning it, because the usual issues with quality of work that had to be QC'ed immediately came up. To be honest, there is nothing stopping corporate, but none of the jobs most of us do are so easily done that it can be just put in a simple step by step process ( and even then its hardly a way to guarantee accuracy ). I guess what I am really saying is: if they could, they would have already. But they can't, because you get what you pay for.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- cjbgkagh 2y agoAh, the I’ll replace you with an Indian routine that’s been going on for over 25 years years of my career.
- currymj 2y agoI generally think for many jobs, in-person is actually better. SWE in a place with good process, remote is probably fine. Generally similar for jobs with clear deliverables on that kind of time scale. if it's more research oriented, there is a huge benefit to being in-person in front of a whiteboard. For a job with shifting requirements day to day (like some legal or banking work), it is easier to coordinate everyone in the same office. unclear if this overcomes cost to employees of the commute, housing, etc., but the value is there. however there is also "worst of all possible worlds" RTO, where you have to commute to the office because the office is the place you are required to sit for your 4+ hours of Zoom calls per day with other colleagues in other offices. I expect a lot of companies are going to do this, which is totally stupid.
- jcims 2y agoOne note to consider here is that JPMC has, over the past 4-5 years, invested over a billion dollars in renovating and rebuilding several major offices (270 Park and Polaris being major efforts). It's not entirely unlikely this is related to that as well.
- whatever1 2y agoRTO is a cheap way for the companies to filter out the rebels that they hired during Covid.
- bilsbie 2y agoI wish these places would consider remote offices in places with lower cost of living. Or in suburbs outside of major cities. THe worst part is the commute. Just such a waste of human life.
- srvo 2y agoHonestly, the fact that J.P. Morgan employees are even pondering this credibly enough for it to get picked up by Barron's is a watershed moment for the labor rights movement in the U.S.
- beanjuiceII 2y agogood, my company will keep remote work and easily scoop up good people because we're not ones to make excuses about 'better office collaboration' or whatever the current joke is to help the real estate out
- robotnikman 2y agoI feel like Work from Home would be a great solution to the housing crisis, as it would allow people to easily live in affordable areas. A tax break or something for businesses which implement WfH would be a good starting point for this.
- kkfx 2y agoThat's the good answer https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/nov/19/starling-bank-staff-resign-after-new-chief-executive-calls-for-more-time-in-office https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/nov/19/starling-ba... AND not alone, it's time to prepare a mass resign for all companies pushing RTO stating clear that they are against human evolution, so harmful for humanity AND their heads must resign to end the strike.
- blased 2y agoI worked at JPM, practically the entire US office was Indians. It was a mess. It's the largest bank in the world, "too big to fail" and apparently "too big to employ the people who are on the hook for their bailout".
- from-nibly 2y agoThis likely won't work. They are probably using this as a way to thin the herd anyway.
- Over2Chars 2y agoHigher wages? Nope. Collective bargaining? Nope. A way to push back on being required to go to the office which has been a requirement since forever (before 2022): bring on the workers' power Revolution, comrade!
- lucidone 2y agoI wouldn't mind RTO so much if the cities where most tech jobs are were affordable. I'd rather be a millwright in my middle-of-nowhere mining town with a 10 minute commute in a 250k house versus a software developer with an hour long commute and a million dollar mortgage in big-metropolis. For now, I am making hay while the sun is shining and getting the best of both worlds while squirreling away as much cash as possible.