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'So immoral': gig economy workers forced to pay fee to receive their wages
- like_any_other 2y agoTangential, but I think we're long overdue to fund employee benefits through taxes instead, which employers pay instead of being on the hook for e.g. paid medical/maternity/etc. On average employers would pay as much as now (unless they're abusing loopholes, e.g. gig work), there would be fewer loopholes, and small employers would be 'insured' against potentially ruinous hires - I know a handyman that won't hire an assistant, because of the risk of getting someone that would be on medical leave more than work, leaving the handyman on the hook for all his pay. This makes growing small (<10 people) businesses very difficult.
- zamadatix 2y agoI thought businesses that small weren't on the hook for providing medical benefits under the ACA or for providing medical leave pay under the FMLA?
- like_any_other 2y agoThis was a few years ago in the EU, but I admit I'm not the most knowledgeable on employment law.
- zamadatix 2y agoMy bad I read taxes as Texas for some reason. I guess that's what just being on a red eye returning through Texas does to you!
- herczegzsolt 2y agoTaxes may be part of a solution, but don't expect them to solve this problem alone. In most EU states you pay taxes to provide medical care to employees. If an employee gets sick or otherwise unable to work, you are usually required to continue paying those taxes even if the employee does zero workhours. The key part to help small businesses is to mitigate their risk of dispropotional cost. Does not matter if it's a tax or any other payable.
- glitchc 2y agoIs that single-payer healthcare?
- PopAlongKid 2y ago> fund employee benefits through taxes instead This is already true, at least in part. Not only do employers get to fully deduct the cost of almost all employee benefits from their taxable income, but in most cases (e.g. health insurance) they also do not have to pay their share of employer payroll taxes (Soc. Sec and Medicare tax).
- timewizard 2y agoYou should know that the Treasury is mostly funded by taxpayers. If we break down total receipts into the Treasury 85% come from individual tax returns, 7% come from business tax returns, and 7% from excise taxes.
- olliej 2y agoSo it’s wage theft then? Gotta love the “disruptive” tech industry. Such innovation.
- JSTrading 2y agoScumbags as they were once called
- wahnfrieden 2y agoWhy are YC’s leadership and other VCs so vocal on shoplifting crime but never raise their voice against rampant wage theft in our industry? The criminality by dollar value is far worse with the latter
- coldpie 2y agoBecause they're the ones benefiting from the wage theft, and complaining about low-level crime helps elect politicians that are more likely to overlook that wage theft.
- wahnfrieden 2y agoThat sounds hypocritical and deceptive to frame it as supporting being hard on crime in general yet selectively applied
- turzmo 2y agoIt’s neither hypocritical nor deceptive. It’s simply selfish.
- nine_zeros 2y agoSo a fraud? Can they be sued in court for fraud?
- surfingdino 2y agoThere's probably a waiver in the contract signed by temp workers giving the platform freedom to change terms of payments.
- bpodgursky 2y ago"Gig workers" gets the headline, but this is really just highlighting that contractors of all sorts get shafted with regards to payment timelines. "Standard 30+ day delay" is pretty common for contractors of all sorts, and is part of the reason contracting rates should be so much higher than standard employment. But it's kinda shitty and usually due to laziness on the corp's part rather than any particular actuarial reason.
- Bloating 2y agoadd, this is typical whether your a single employee contractor or a multiple employee contractor with the least leverage in the deal. Its a fact of real life, not a ploy against the self-employeed
- PittleyDunkin 2y ago> We’re deeply concerned that companies will try to get around the law and continue to exploit vulnerable workers by pretending they are self-employed when they should enjoy the full protection of the law. This is really the crux of the issue: why do we pretend that gig workers don't deserve the same benefits and protections that proper employees do? Even referring to it as a "gig" makes it sound more like a hobby than a livelihood. EDIT: yea sorry I meant to imply "wages and wage guarantees" as well but I just shoved it in with "benefits and protections"
- whimsicalism 2y agoideally benefits should be provided by the state or out of pocket, not by employers - imposing requirements like full benefit coverage for gig workers would likely lower employment rates
- asdfman123 2y agoI can't help but feel the problem is that someone becomes "full time" in the US after exactly 40 hours. I feel like some kind of gradient system would be ideal. Like if you work 10 hours a week you get 25% of the cash value of benefits. That way, a company wouldn't be incentivized to keep them right below the limit.
- andrewmcwatters 2y agoThis is such a great idea that I'm surprised I've never read anyone suggest it in all of my professional life.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- asdfman123 2y agoHonestly I think the whole system runs on "let's pretend we're doing stuff for the workers but create loopholes so big business doesn't have to actually comply."
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- scarface_74 2y agoThe employer should obviously be paying to use what is essentially a SaaS payment platform like ADP, Paylocity, etc.
- johnea 2y agoI complain about this at the other end of the cash flow cycle all the time: having to pay to pay. When a service, often my local municipality, charges a fee to pay a fee. VISA is arguably the biggest mafia organization in the world... 3% of all retain sales worldwide? Why? With the proliferation of 3rd party "payment processors", and the accompanying crimes commited, The Fed has instituted a central bank hosted instant payment system: https://www.frbservices.org/financial-services/fednow/about.html https://www.frbservices.org/financial-services/fednow/about.... But almost no one uses it. Why is that? Do people really want their money locked up in stripe or paypal?
- op00to 2y agoSend a check. That’s free.
- mosburger 2y agoAlmost no one uses FedNow (which would theoretically bring the U.S. almost on-par with European Open Banking) because the banks really don't have much incentive to integrate with it, especially if they're the ones making money by issuing debit and credit cards.
- johnea 2y agoThe banks making money off of the shakedown is certainly a part of the problem. But I bank at a local credit union, and I've mentioned FedNow to about 5 different branch managers. So far, no one has even heard of it 8-/ They just cancelled a relationship with zelle (which I didn't like or use), and I've suggested that tehy replace it with FedNow, but no one even knows what i'm talking about. p.s. Love your username mosburger! My favorite Japanese fast food chain! Especially for their offering of the YasaiBurger...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- adolph 2y agoThe answer is transaction costs. Details at patio11: https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/ https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/
- whimsicalism 2y agoTo receive their wages within 30 days. This is basically just an inhouse bundled payday loan program. imo they should probably be required to pay out at the normal biweekly timescale, but it’s not nearly as awful as this title makes out
- JoeAltmaier 2y agoFor my clients, I handle this simply. Payment due upon receipt of invoice. Then, I stop working until paid. Then I resume their project (re-queue it in my workflow). Resorted to this after not ever getting paid too often.
- cr125rider 2y agoThe problem is if you stop working as a gig worker you get replaced almost immediately because the barrier to work is incredibly low. The company never even feels a change.
- AndrewGaspar 2y agoThis is kind of a weird framing. 30 days is longer period than probably acceptable, but most people get regular, lagging biweekly paychecks rather than getting their paycheck paid out continuously in infinitesimal chunks.
- Symbiote 2y agoThe article is about the UK. It's normal for people working temporary jobs (such as factory or cleaning work) to be paid weekly.
- insane_dreamer 2y agoYou missed the point. They don't want to treat these workers as employees (so they can skip paying out benefits) but pay them like employees (at the end of the month; in fact even worse than that).
- graypegg 2y ago> “freelance” retail assistants How is that a gig at this point? It's a temp agency. Temp agencies cannot do this in the UK right? A cursory low-effort google returns some laws. [0] I'm sure they have legions of lawyers ready to argue their unique and disruptive business model has never been seen on the british isles before but I have trouble seeing this as anything other than a temp agency. [0] https://www.gov.uk/employment-agencies-and-businesses https://www.gov.uk/employment-agencies-and-businesses
- _fat_santa 2y agoJust wait, pretty soon we will have "fee fees". A fee charged so the company can charge more fees.
- FireBeyond 2y agoLet's face it, we're getting there. TicketMaster, similarly, with its convenience fees: - want to get your ticket 'delivered' via email? Convenience Fee! - want it mailed to you? Convenience Fee! - want to pick it up at the box office? Convenience Fee! When you consider all your available delivery options to be "convenient", it's just a fee.
- insane_dreamer 2y agoinnovation, ftw! /s
- ge96 2y agoI got lucky, I wrecked my car (not while doing a gig) but my insurance company was like "were you doing a gig job?". Had to prove I wasn't. I don't get in many wrecks, had 1 in my life so far that was this bad (totaled car). edit: I'm aware you're supposed to get some kind of special business insurance but at the time I was not aware of that. Thankfully this insurance company who I had been with for almost 10 years honored my claim. I am glad I'm able to drive on the side. Turn it on and go nice to have extra cash. I am aware of the instant pay (fee) but I also like that vs. waiting for ACH to clear day(s) later.
- null0pointer 2y ago> Had to prove I wasn't. How did you prove it? What is their standard of evidence? My intuition says it would be difficult to prove a negative.
- jandrese 2y agoI would think the burden is on them to prove that you were. They were just digging for a reason to deny the claim. If the police report mentions an second individual in the car unrelated to you then they might start digging around for your name in Uber or Lyft, but most of the time that is probably just a standard question to screw over the unwary.
- ge96 2y agoScreenshot of my (gig) app history, I guess arguably that can be faked I do food deliveries primarily since my car isn't accepted as a passenger car
- etblg 2y agoHow come your car isn't accepted as a passenger car? 2 door coupe or something? Delivery van?
- ge96 2y agoYeah doors/small and uncomfortable. I wish I could drive people (makes more) but at the same time I got my car for me. It's not a fancy car I wish, once I'm not in debt/have more money I want to graduate to cooler cars like a Lotus Exige. As an aside, delivery can be fun as far as exploring a city and meeting random people (mostly the food workers) but it's a way to get out. I am destroying my car though putting like 1000 miles a week on it or more. I think once I'm out of debt I won't drive/donate plasma anymore and just use my spare time for other things provided a have a good paying job like I do now.
- amazingamazing 2y ago[deleted]
- do_not_redeem 2y agoOut of touch. Imagine trying to tell your landlord or the grocery store they'll get their money in 30 days, and by the way thanks for the food!
- amazingamazing 2y ago[deleted]
- do_not_redeem 2y agoYour friends are not the ones I was calling out of touch. The company in the OP set up "a new payment system" without warning to their workers, and now people are getting paid 30 days later than previously agreed upon. If you think that the average person won't be impacted by not getting paid for a month, then yes, I stand by my statement.
- amazingamazing 2y ago[deleted]
- hamandcheese 2y ago> but they aren’t being charged to get their money. They literally are. The deal was altered so that what used to be free now charges a fee.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- wing-_-nuts 2y agoWe're talking gig workers here. Can you not imagine someone on such apps might be living under tighter constraints than a well paid software engineer paid once a month?
- Bloating 2y agoAre these folks forced into "gig" work? It used to cost me maybe 25 cents for a cup of coffee. Now, its like $25 to get my Starbuck's double-decaffeinated half-caf with a twist delivered by Doordash. Gotta gig, 'cause the Inflation is Real, boomer!
- onetimeok 2y ago[dead]
- schappim 2y agoPayPal does the same thing if you want to “instantly” transfer your own money to your bank account.
- cr125rider 2y agoThey make a lot of money “on the float” by holding onto funds and investing them until you cash out.
- Funes- 2y agoWell, in Spain you have to pay a minimum 200€ fee every month just for the government to let you be self-employed, even if you make 0€ (and it gets steeper and steeper the higher your income is), on top of every other tax you also need to account for. Talk about immoral.
- bell-cot 2y agoAbout the Title: The Guardian's title is now "...gig economy workers charged fee to get paid quicker". (They note that as a correction to their prior version of the article.) So the whole story is more-or-less about an extra-bonus-sleazy payday loan scheme. About the Health Insurance angle: The article is about YoungOnes - which claims to only operate in the UK and Netherlands. Both of which counties have national health systems. (And the article is so UK-centric that I see no mention at all of the Netherlands.)
- frenchmajesty 2y agoGig work is the dirt underbelly of the economy: > Enough demand that it can generate revenue, not enough revenue that it creates incentives for high-loyalty structure -–which is what you do when you care about your employees and want to keep them working for you. If Uber loses one driver, there is a thousand that would gladly replace them and get paid same day, in cash, pre-tax at a higher hourly rate than they can get in the job market (Amazon warehouse, Fast Food, etc...), with a lot more control of their time. How do you compete? The companies know and have no incentive to hire. Meanwhile, if legislation is passed to force them to do it, they're likely to dramatically cut driver headcount to keep their already shitty P&L healthy and will cause 100s of thousands to lose their main income source and a 1000x increase in costs for consumers. (Bad outcome for all parties involved) As it stands the economics of that business model are too messed up for a good path forward to exist.
- potato3732842 2y agoNot that it makes ok but these terms are basically no different and perhaps in some specific cases better (the cards had a myriad of fees for various transaction types) than the sort of scummy prepaid visa tied to a debit account crap that temp agencies have been loading people's pay onto for more than a decade now.
- 486sx33 2y agoThis has been happening to truckers for a long time now