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Is it just me or this whole find my network capability is a security nightmare? I mean I understand its usefulness but can the [insert authority here] just requ

Is it just me or this whole find my network capability is a security nightmare? I mean I understand its usefulness but can the [insert authority here] just request apple to tell them where this person is even without cellular coverage? Ive decided to move away from the apple ecosystem either way because of this but it just seems to me to be a surveillance nightmare.

rgovostes 2y ago
https://support.apple.com/guide/security/find-my-security-sec6cbc80fd0/web https://support.apple.com/guide/security/find-my-security-se...
- nobunaga 2y ago
  Interesting thanks. I understand that its designed to be anonymous, but I guess it requires faith in Apple not complying to any forceful request from a security authority in the US to not modify it in secret.
  - CubsFan1060 2y ago
    Of course that can be said for nearly anything you own. iPhone, android, tablet, anything that is Bluetooth (for instance, your car), etc.
  - givinguflac 2y ago
    Given apples outright refusal to help the FBI previously I have more faith than other companies that they’ll do the right thing. But nothing’s perfect.
  - rgovostes 2y ago
    Cryptographers who design these systems do consider the threat of a malicious future iteration of the company and thus try to reduce the trust in a centralized authority. Apple did fight in court to not have to crack the San Bernardino shooter’s phone, which probably didn’t garner much sympathy with the general public, specifically against government power to compel them to make changes to subvert security. They also publish a Transparency Report about government requests they’ve received and how many they’ve responded to.
    - oefrha 2y ago
      > Cryptographers who design these systems do consider the threat of a malicious future iteration of the company and thus try to reduce the trust in a centralized authority. It’s no use. All the opaqueness to Apple relies on > This private key pair and the secret are never sent to Apple and are synced only among the user’s other devices in an end-to-end encrypted manner using iCloud Keychain. Which is trivial to compromise from Apple. They do their best to minimize trackability from third parties though.
      - Terretta 2y ago
        > Which is trivial to compromise from Apple. Explain this? Since both Apple and security researchers have worked on provable trust.
        oefrha 2y ago
        Provable how? iOS software is closed source and unverifiable. New code can be added to send any data anywhere at any point. Explain to me how you prove closed source software won’t send data under its control ever. And we don’t even need to go as far as key exchanges, and forget about Find My. Maybe those are better protected and it’s harder for them to pull a sneaky without someone noticing. The location data of your phone isn’t in Secure Enclave and the OS can do whatever the hell it likes with it, good luck verifying a huge closed source OS which phones home all the time isn’t sending your location home. At the end of the day you’re trusting them (or just don’t care because you probably aren’t pissing off TLA, which is certainly true in my case), provable security is extremely limited.
      - snuxoll 2y ago
        iCloud Keychain escrow data is encrypted by HSM clusters that have administrator keys destroyed; if Apple tried to compromise a keychain by installing malicious HSMs users would first get notified that their data had been lost due to failed/destroyed HSMs.
        oefrha 2y ago
  - lathiat 2y ago
    If you want to learn more about how this all works in video form, there was a talk at 38c3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWQcgZfxkOM&pp=ygUMMzhjMyBmaW5kIG15 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWQcgZfxkOM&pp=ygUMMzhjMyBma...
  - Terretta 2y ago
    Which mobile phone maker do you have more faith in? Which telco? Apple have done work, and published tools for researchers, to make it so they can't "modify it in secret". The tools for security research community help verify that and "keep them honest". For instance, this is partly what the prompts about new devices or log in on other devices are about, there's a key exchange happening, and you get told. You can also exchange keys with Messages contacts to verify you're talking to them. You can turn on iCloud Advanced Security and Apple don't get even your backup keys. Also see the new Lockdown Mode. Granted, Apple can change their minds and become anti-privacy or pro data-brokers and ad-tech, but some of these proofs would break so folks would know. Anyway, if the government wants to know where you are, they can just ask the Chinese who've been watching Americans' cell phone identifiers move around. In seriousness, the telcos already sell* this position data to data-brokers and law enforcement have portals to just watch you scurry around, even without a warrant. * Sometimes telcos share your location data in ways that aren't "selling" so they can say they don't sell it. But the data goes and telcos derive value in exchange.
    - jeroenhd 2y ago
      Just because someone doesn't trust Apple to build a worldwide live location tracking system doesn't mean they don't want someone else to build a worldwide location tracking system. There's an inherent risk to worldwide location tracking systems and while I think the genie is out of the bottle now, I would prefer there not to be a worldwide location tracking network at all. Airtags have become a commodity at this point and despite attempts to prevent this, criminals are already using them to follow potential victims to their homes. I know GPS trackers and a bunch of different find-my style networks existed long before Apple brought the airtag to market, but those didn't turn up in purses and cars quite as often as Airtags now do. Apple tries their best to make this thing secure and safe, but there's only so much safety they can add before the devices become useless.
malmeloo 2y ago
I think it's worth mentioning that FindMy consists of two distinct "networks"; there's the one where other Apple devices find your stuff, and another where your devices upload their locations straight to Apple. The FindMy app combines these two networks to show the most recent location. As far as I can tell this project only uses the former network, which would require an explicit backdoor due to the way it is designed. But if you're trying to defend against government agencies, that latter network is probably more of your concern.
tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
The system is designed specifically to make this impossible. Your tag doesn't know its position, it simply broadcasts its own, rotating public key. Since the key changes randomly (in a way that you as the legitimate owner can predict), a third party can't easily follow the tag. Other devices see that key, and share their position, encrypted with your tag's public key. That makes it relatively hard to get the data, essentially impossible without forcing Apple to re-design the system and push malicious updates, which is generally considered as something that goes beyond what normal subpoenas can do.
- nixpulvis 2y ago
  Apple could be subpoenaed to look at the account holder's registered tags still, no?
  - crims0n 2y ago
    If the US government is subpoenaing Apple on your behalf, you probably have bigger problems.
    - jeroenhd 2y ago
      The US government has told Google to query its location database for any device in the vicinity of certain crimes before. There's no way they're not trying to get Apple to do the same. If Apple designed they'd crypto system as well as they claim that's not viable at this moment in time, but the government can certainly try.
  - HALtheWise 2y ago
    No, because Apple doesn't have the private key of the account holder, and so can't see which rotating codes are associated with that account holder since it's all encrypted.
  - tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
    This gives them a list of tags, but not their location. The keys to decrypt your location are (AFAIK) held on your iPhone.
reaperducer 2y ago
Is it just me or this whole find my network capability is a security nightmare? Settings → your_name → Find My → device → toggle off If you don't trust that this will really disable the feature, then you are going to have to think hard about every electronic device you own. Do you trust the firmware in your Android phone? What about the non-open-source modem chip? What about the SIM card, which runs Java? Are there microphones you haven't noticed built in to your TV remote? (Many have them.) Your toaster likely has a chip in it more powerful than a networked DOS-era computer. (Mine does.) How do you know it's not joining a nearby wifi network and sending out information? Ever since the China/iCloud thing, I don't fully trust Apple. But among big tech companies, it's certainly the one that I trust the most.
wkat4242 2y ago
No they can't. Apple doesn't know who has which tag. It's built with privacy in mind. I know Apple listen touts privacy while having ulterior motives but I looked at the technical design specs and this is pretty great I doubt Samsung and Google have gone to such lengths with their trackers.
- andy_xor_andrew 2y ago
  Apple always seems to design services the way a privacy-obsessed nerd would, (if you forced said privacy nerd to design a P2P tracking network). It's like, "oh, you want all your photos to be searchable, like 'dogs' or 'Eiffel tower'? Fine, we'll create an on-device embedding of each photo, use homomorphic encryption so you can share it with us and we can match it to its contents without even knowing what they are, then we'll send that back to your device for storage. Oh, and we'll use a relay so we don't even see your IP address while doing this, not that it matters since we can't decrypt the content anyway." It's pretty wild, like they could have easily skipped all this and only a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of users would even know or care. In fact, I was pretty annoyed that the news story from the above example was "Apple is looking at all your photos and violating your privacy", since they spent so much effort doing it the right way, in a way that respects your privacy, it makes it less likely they will bother going through the effort again https://www.theregister.com/2025/01/03/apple_enhanced_visual_search/ https://www.theregister.com/2025/01/03/apple_enhanced_visual...
  - lern_too_spel 2y ago
    You misunderstood the point of the news story. Apple automatically opted in everybody's iPhones to sending data to Apple, unlike every other company that requires explicit opt in.
    - averageRoyalty 2y ago
      > unlike every other company that requires explicit opt in. Not defending Apple here, but that's silly. User hostility and auto gobbling up data without consent is perfectly normal for most companies out there.

rgovostes 2y ago

https://support.apple.com/guide/security/find-my-security-sec6cbc80fd0/web https://support.apple.com/guide/security/find-my-security-se...

nobunaga 2y ago
Interesting thanks. I understand that its designed to be anonymous, but I guess it requires faith in Apple not complying to any forceful request from a security authority in the US to not modify it in secret.
- CubsFan1060 2y ago
  Of course that can be said for nearly anything you own. iPhone, android, tablet, anything that is Bluetooth (for instance, your car), etc.
- givinguflac 2y ago
  Given apples outright refusal to help the FBI previously I have more faith than other companies that they’ll do the right thing. But nothing’s perfect.
- rgovostes 2y ago
  Cryptographers who design these systems do consider the threat of a malicious future iteration of the company and thus try to reduce the trust in a centralized authority. Apple did fight in court to not have to crack the San Bernardino shooter’s phone, which probably didn’t garner much sympathy with the general public, specifically against government power to compel them to make changes to subvert security. They also publish a Transparency Report about government requests they’ve received and how many they’ve responded to.
  - oefrha 2y ago
    > Cryptographers who design these systems do consider the threat of a malicious future iteration of the company and thus try to reduce the trust in a centralized authority. It’s no use. All the opaqueness to Apple relies on > This private key pair and the secret are never sent to Apple and are synced only among the user’s other devices in an end-to-end encrypted manner using iCloud Keychain. Which is trivial to compromise from Apple. They do their best to minimize trackability from third parties though.
    - Terretta 2y ago
      > Which is trivial to compromise from Apple. Explain this? Since both Apple and security researchers have worked on provable trust.
      - oefrha 2y ago
        Provable how? iOS software is closed source and unverifiable. New code can be added to send any data anywhere at any point. Explain to me how you prove closed source software won’t send data under its control ever. And we don’t even need to go as far as key exchanges, and forget about Find My. Maybe those are better protected and it’s harder for them to pull a sneaky without someone noticing. The location data of your phone isn’t in Secure Enclave and the OS can do whatever the hell it likes with it, good luck verifying a huge closed source OS which phones home all the time isn’t sending your location home. At the end of the day you’re trusting them (or just don’t care because you probably aren’t pissing off TLA, which is certainly true in my case), provable security is extremely limited.
    - snuxoll 2y ago
      iCloud Keychain escrow data is encrypted by HSM clusters that have administrator keys destroyed; if Apple tried to compromise a keychain by installing malicious HSMs users would first get notified that their data had been lost due to failed/destroyed HSMs.
      - oefrha 2y ago
- lathiat 2y ago
  If you want to learn more about how this all works in video form, there was a talk at 38c3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWQcgZfxkOM&pp=ygUMMzhjMyBmaW5kIG15 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWQcgZfxkOM&pp=ygUMMzhjMyBma...
- Terretta 2y ago
  Which mobile phone maker do you have more faith in? Which telco? Apple have done work, and published tools for researchers, to make it so they can't "modify it in secret". The tools for security research community help verify that and "keep them honest". For instance, this is partly what the prompts about new devices or log in on other devices are about, there's a key exchange happening, and you get told. You can also exchange keys with Messages contacts to verify you're talking to them. You can turn on iCloud Advanced Security and Apple don't get even your backup keys. Also see the new Lockdown Mode. Granted, Apple can change their minds and become anti-privacy or pro data-brokers and ad-tech, but some of these proofs would break so folks would know. Anyway, if the government wants to know where you are, they can just ask the Chinese who've been watching Americans' cell phone identifiers move around. In seriousness, the telcos already sell* this position data to data-brokers and law enforcement have portals to just watch you scurry around, even without a warrant. * Sometimes telcos share your location data in ways that aren't "selling" so they can say they don't sell it. But the data goes and telcos derive value in exchange.
  - jeroenhd 2y ago
    Just because someone doesn't trust Apple to build a worldwide live location tracking system doesn't mean they don't want someone else to build a worldwide location tracking system. There's an inherent risk to worldwide location tracking systems and while I think the genie is out of the bottle now, I would prefer there not to be a worldwide location tracking network at all. Airtags have become a commodity at this point and despite attempts to prevent this, criminals are already using them to follow potential victims to their homes. I know GPS trackers and a bunch of different find-my style networks existed long before Apple brought the airtag to market, but those didn't turn up in purses and cars quite as often as Airtags now do. Apple tries their best to make this thing secure and safe, but there's only so much safety they can add before the devices become useless.

malmeloo 2y ago

I think it's worth mentioning that FindMy consists of two distinct "networks"; there's the one where other Apple devices find your stuff, and another where your devices upload their locations straight to Apple. The FindMy app combines these two networks to show the most recent location. As far as I can tell this project only uses the former network, which would require an explicit backdoor due to the way it is designed. But if you're trying to defend against government agencies, that latter network is probably more of your concern.

tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago

The system is designed specifically to make this impossible. Your tag doesn't know its position, it simply broadcasts its own, rotating public key. Since the key changes randomly (in a way that you as the legitimate owner can predict), a third party can't easily follow the tag. Other devices see that key, and share their position, encrypted with your tag's public key. That makes it relatively hard to get the data, essentially impossible without forcing Apple to re-design the system and push malicious updates, which is generally considered as something that goes beyond what normal subpoenas can do.

nixpulvis 2y ago
Apple could be subpoenaed to look at the account holder's registered tags still, no?
- crims0n 2y ago
  If the US government is subpoenaing Apple on your behalf, you probably have bigger problems.
  - jeroenhd 2y ago
    The US government has told Google to query its location database for any device in the vicinity of certain crimes before. There's no way they're not trying to get Apple to do the same. If Apple designed they'd crypto system as well as they claim that's not viable at this moment in time, but the government can certainly try.
- HALtheWise 2y ago
  No, because Apple doesn't have the private key of the account holder, and so can't see which rotating codes are associated with that account holder since it's all encrypted.
- tgsovlerkhgsel 2y ago
  This gives them a list of tags, but not their location. The keys to decrypt your location are (AFAIK) held on your iPhone.

reaperducer 2y ago

Is it just me or this whole find my network capability is a security nightmare? Settings → your_name → Find My → device → toggle off If you don't trust that this will really disable the feature, then you are going to have to think hard about every electronic device you own. Do you trust the firmware in your Android phone? What about the non-open-source modem chip? What about the SIM card, which runs Java? Are there microphones you haven't noticed built in to your TV remote? (Many have them.) Your toaster likely has a chip in it more powerful than a networked DOS-era computer. (Mine does.) How do you know it's not joining a nearby wifi network and sending out information? Ever since the China/iCloud thing, I don't fully trust Apple. But among big tech companies, it's certainly the one that I trust the most.

wkat4242 2y ago

No they can't. Apple doesn't know who has which tag. It's built with privacy in mind. I know Apple listen touts privacy while having ulterior motives but I looked at the technical design specs and this is pretty great I doubt Samsung and Google have gone to such lengths with their trackers.

andy_xor_andrew 2y ago
Apple always seems to design services the way a privacy-obsessed nerd would, (if you forced said privacy nerd to design a P2P tracking network). It's like, "oh, you want all your photos to be searchable, like 'dogs' or 'Eiffel tower'? Fine, we'll create an on-device embedding of each photo, use homomorphic encryption so you can share it with us and we can match it to its contents without even knowing what they are, then we'll send that back to your device for storage. Oh, and we'll use a relay so we don't even see your IP address while doing this, not that it matters since we can't decrypt the content anyway." It's pretty wild, like they could have easily skipped all this and only a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of users would even know or care. In fact, I was pretty annoyed that the news story from the above example was "Apple is looking at all your photos and violating your privacy", since they spent so much effort doing it the right way, in a way that respects your privacy, it makes it less likely they will bother going through the effort again https://www.theregister.com/2025/01/03/apple_enhanced_visual_search/ https://www.theregister.com/2025/01/03/apple_enhanced_visual...
- lern_too_spel 2y ago
  You misunderstood the point of the news story. Apple automatically opted in everybody's iPhones to sending data to Apple, unlike every other company that requires explicit opt in.
  - averageRoyalty 2y ago
    > unlike every other company that requires explicit opt in. Not defending Apple here, but that's silly. User hostility and auto gobbling up data without consent is perfectly normal for most companies out there.