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Starlink is now cheaper than leading internet provider in some African countries
- spwa4 2y agoI wouldn't worry about it. Government officials will find a way to change this ... Even now there's countries with a tax on unlimited internet on cell phones.
- bpodgursky 2y agoStarlink is significantly more resistant to graft than terrestrial service. For the most part SpaceX is playing nice with regulators, but if Zimbabwe's government tried to extort Starlink users, SpaceX could just open up service and Zimbabwe could do absolutely nothing to stop them.
- cactusplant7374 2y agoWouldn't that be considered a form of dumping if they offered it for free?
- bpodgursky 2y agoI didn't say free, they'd just allow signups and ignore local restrictions.
- jazzyjackson 2y agoHow will they collect payment without an in-country business entity?
- immibis 2y agoDogecoin.
- inemesitaffia 2y agoSame way Russians pay for Steam
- bpodgursky 2y agoThis happens all the time for many many businesses. Do you think all software vendors, small businesses that ship products have an in-country business entity? They just take online payments.
- jazzyjackson 2y agoMost software vendors do not make themselves a target, they rely on the cooperation of banks in-country to process payments.
- voakbasda 2y agoSure they could. They could make it illegal to possess Starklink equipment within their borders, in the name of “national security” or whatnot.
- bpodgursky 2y agoStarlink can talk direct to cell phones.
- gruez 2y agoThose work far worse (bandwidth) than the dedicated terminals.
- NoahKAndrews 2y agoOnly for extremely low-bandwidth service, good for texting and such.
- lukan 2y agoThat would be enough to get that information, totalitarian governments don't want you to get. So expect regulations regarding those smartphones soon. And be aware if you travel with a satellite capable device (india apparently also don't like them): https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/hiking-and-backpacking/india-garmin-inreach/ https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/hiking-and-b...
- throwaway48476 2y agoThere's no way to put the smartphone genie back in the bottle and there's no way to visually differentiate satelote capable phones. It's going to be easy to smuggle them across borders.
- lukan 2y agoMaybe, but would you currently like to go to india with a satellite capable device? And in the future I can imagine mandatory software that needs to be installed in many countries, to be able to do any buisness there. Not specifically against satellites - but for using the bus, paying the hotel, getting a appointment at the police, ... and that app would make sure, you only connect to authorized means of communication. The hard part will be preventing that shit to become universal.
- jplrssn 2y agoIsn't Starlink subject to frequency spectrum licensing in each country it operates in?
- anticensor 2y agoIt's in the same band as regular satellite internet, so the licensing is already dealt with.
- duxup 2y agoHas Starlink as an org shown any interest in resisting local pressure to that extent? I'm asking, I don't know, but even when technically feasible there are lots of concerns with defying local governments, good and bad.
- inemesitaffia 2y agoIran, Myanmar, Sudan (not even the US government or US Media wants them there), Cuba, Venezuela.
- duxup 2y agoSomewhat isolated countries… might apply to some African nations.
- gamblor956 2y agoZimbabwe could do absolutely nothing to stop them They could issue an order to local payment processors to block all payments to Starlink...like Brazil did. In this particular hypothetical, Zimbabwe would have more solid legal grounds for blocking payment than the Brazilian judge (TLDR: X didn't adhere to all of Brazil's regulations and refused to pay the resulting fines so a judge deemed Starlink a related company and blocked payments to Starlink until X complied.)
- cesarb 2y ago> (TLDR: X didn't adhere to all of Brazil's regulations and refused to pay the resulting fines so a judge deemed Starlink a related company and blocked payments to Starlink until X complied.) IIRC, the judge didn't block payments to Starlink; instead, the judge told the banks to take the value of the fines from the Starlink bank accounts.
- gamblor956 2y agoPer Reuters, the judge blocked the financial accounts of Starlink, meaning that Brazilian companies were barred from conducting financial transactions with it. https://www.reuters.com/technology/brazil-judge-blocks-starlink-accounts-country-amid-x-spat-source-says-2024-08-29/ https://www.reuters.com/technology/brazil-judge-blocks-starl... https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2024/8/29/brazil-judge-blocks-starlink-accounts-as-x-suspension-deadline-looms https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2024/8/29/brazil-judge-blo...
- bodhiandphysics 2y agoIt's a little more complicated than that. There are two international treaties at play here (that the US has ratified)... the Outer Space Treaty requires that countries regulate the actions in outer space of their citizens and companies, in compliance with the outer space treaty and other international treaties (cf. Article VI and Article III). The Convention of the International Telecommunications Union of 1997 (the last version the us has ratified) specifies that the US shall abide by the rules of the ITU, including in allocation of satellite spectrum (Article 6). The ITU allows countries to limit the use of spectrum in certain bands (including those used by starlink) within their borders. So Zimbabwe actually can ban starlink. And if it ignores Zimbabwe... well Zimbabwe will complain to the ITU, and the ITU to the US. The US would be under obligation to regulate Starlink... with the minor exception of its not clear that the US has any agency that can, at least under current law. Anyway, it would be a total mess if Elon did that (except in a country like Russia where the US wants him to do that)... and I have no idea what would happen.
- bilbo0s 2y agoNo one would allow a business perceived to be US Owned to play games like that in Africa right now anyway. With the Chinese sitting right there ready to swoop in and help the affected nations problem solve. We’re not as dumb in the US as the rest of the world seems to think.
- bodhiandphysics 2y agoThe rest of the world only thinks the US is dumb because they rely upon us to make the kind of decisions that they don't want to have to make. It's easy to criticize without real skin in the game. I mean Trump is an idiot... but umm... Berlusconi?
- immibis 2y agoNote that Starlink requires a ground station near the users.
- duxup 2y agoI had a coworker who grew up in Africa and was involved with ISPs there. He had some pretty important jobs in a couple countries. His explanation why he came to the US to do what were lower level jobs was that in the places he worked it was all who you knew and if your given buddy who got you that job fell out of the good graces of those in power ... you were screwed forever. He had enough of that, good guy, very capable, worked his way up again in the US.
- throwafrica 2y agoyou better read history on colonization in Africa. letting foreign companies to have a grip on resources (data and propaganda channels in modern days) wont end well for host nations. If you guys are so pro business why blocking TikTok and other Chinese firms?
- aurizon 2y agoMost African countries operate internet access via buddy/bribery cartels to tax the people highly and enrich the bribers. They hate Starlink's access to anyone who can import a starlink terminal and set it up and they seize them whenever they find them. If Starlink has a licensed path = they would want the lost bribes to be replaced by their fees. All in all = a huge drag on internet access in Africa. A few countries escape this - a precious few..
- Timber-6539 2y agoIt's more nuanced than that. African governments, like any other government, want to regulate and control access to all communications and related infrastucture. Governments for example would like a killswitch they can force Musk to push if need be. Also ISPs are big businesses with telecom companies paying huge sums for licenses (3G,4G licensing etc). Starlink is seen as jumping to the front of the line with little to no similar license requirements (or bribes if you want to call them).
- aurizon 2y agoYes, it does upset their apple cart = what he intended IMHO. The sale of spectrum in the USA/Canada also lards up costs under the guise of 'free market competition' LOL = why internet is USA/Canada is so expensive there compared to many places in Europe/Asia
- heraldgeezer 2y agoDosent every country sell spectrum for 4/5G telecom? https://pts.se/en https://pts.se/en does it in Sweden. Kind of how it has to be?
- throwaway48476 2y agoUS spectrum auctions maximize for dollars in governor coffers instead of value to citizen.
- wmf 2y ago
- davio 2y ago$633 (USD) per month in Zimbabwe is crazy. I could see Starlink becoming the internet backbone for micro-ISPs to slice.
- hooli_gan 2y agoI wonder if they used the official exchange rate or the black market one
- inemesitaffia 2y agoIt's the price for 100 Mbps. You can pay for as low as 5.
- faraixyz 2y agoThat's if you pay in local currency. They have "promotional" packages in US dollars at $150 for a 100MBps line.
- faraixyz 2y agoI used to be quoted that for 20MBps and even 8MBps! these days it's a bit better since you can get that for about $150 if you're lucky enough to be near a fibre line.
- bryanlarsen 2y ago100Mb/s continuously utilized is 100MB * 60 * 60 * 24 * 31 = 33 TB. AWS egress is $50/TB.
- bauruine 2y agoAWS is a perfect comparison because they are also crazy expensive for egress. You get 10 Gbit/s for around 600$ in every NA and European datacenter.
- cadamsdotcom 2y ago> Safaricom and other legacy providers have responded by lowering prices and increasing internet speeds. Super exciting to see competition working.
- jagger27 2y ago[flagged]
- megaman821 2y agoWhat is the "subsidy" here?
- kcb 2y agoUS government buys SpaceX launches instead of Billion $ wrenches from Boeing, Lockheed, and Northrop.
- modeless 2y agoProbably referring to government launch contracts, DoD use of Starlink, and Starshield. The latter did not fund the development costs of Starlink AFAIK. And it's hard for me to characterize government launch contracts as "subsidy" when SpaceX is winning those contracts in fair bidding by undercutting all other launch providers on price.
- drooby 2y agoGood.. US govt makes an inferior mouse trap.. Nor is it subsidies.. it's funding from contracts.. SpaceX is on track to make most of its revenue from Starlink anyways
- darth_avocado 2y ago“Competition” subsidized by the US govt. to help a company get global customers so that the product gets more revenue to continue to be viable. The same company that has US investors, US employees, US manufacturing, US customers and pays US tax dollars.
- bpodgursky 2y ago> Kenyan telecoms have also raised concerns about Starlink taking market share away from local companies that employ thousands of people on the African continent. The point of infrastructure is to deliver services which enable productivity and quality of life for the broader population. Public services are not a jobs program. I will continue screaming this into the void until I turn transform into a pickle.
- throwaway48476 2y agoAfrica is a graveyard of infrastructure.
- causi 2y agoIt's all so tiresome.
- kstrauser 2y agoI've gotta agree on this. That's a bummer for the thousands of people working with hyper-expensive providers. It might not even be those providers' faults: it's probably not cheap being the first company to run infrastructure into less developed areas. And yet, should we hold down the millions of people who want affordable Internet access because of it? I don't think so. Edit: And for transparency, I'm about as far from a Musk fan as it's possible to be. I'm not saying this because it's him doing it. I'm glad someone is, and if happens to be him, fine, so be it.
- mschuster91 2y ago> Public services are not a jobs program. Indeed but wealth extraction from already piss poor countries by artificially dumping prices that cannot be sustained by domestic industry has been a problem with Africa for decades, and that after centuries of colonialism on top of it. Africa used to have a vibrant textile and agricultural industry - Simbabwe for example was known until two, three decades ago as the "grain chamber of Africa" - but Western "donations" aka mitumba and "aid" programs completely wiped out the domestic industry, leaving many countries that were self-sufficient now utterly dependant on foreign supply.
- meta_x_ai 2y ago[flagged]
- ellisd 2y agoThis talk had some very interesting slides from the ITU on internet price due to data scarcity and lack of options. "38C3 - Net Neutrality: Why It Still Matters (More Than Ever!)" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_gqhpLSc_8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_gqhpLSc_8
- antithesis-nl 2y agoThis is slightly misleading, as most Internet access in African countries is via mobile phones, not 'traditional' in-home connections. That being said, it would be interesting to see what happened if all of, say, Lagos (fastest-growing city+suburbs in the world) suddenly started using Starlink exclusively. "Good things" is not very high on my list...
- nn3 2y agoLagos can't use starlink very much because starlink has limited capacity in any given area. The future sats might improve that a bit with more sats and more capacity per sat, and also there will be more non starlink constellations, but it's an inherent problem. If they targeted any densely populated area they would vastly over-provision the rest of the more sparsely populated world. So in general it's good news for the rural population (if they can afford it), but it doesn't really help too much for the cities.
- antithesis-nl 2y ago> Lagos can't use starlink very much because starlink has limited capacity in any given area That's very much not what the Starlink-proponents are, loudly, proclaiming. Because, satellite-peer-to-peer stuff, Elon-magic in general, and whatever. Please note: I think that Starlink is mostly space pollution, and that offering meaningful Internet connectivity to Africa, or rural America, or anywhere mostly involves 'lots of fiber', some radio, and lots of cooperation. But: "just get your Starlink dish and be done" is definitely an Internet Truth, and it's Wrong, and I think it's worth Pointing Out.
- inemesitaffia 2y agoFor a significant population it's right.
- wave-function 2y agoWhat about rural population in poor countries? I live in Kazakhstan where we don't have a lot of money (or population), and many people live in very sparsely populated areas. Internet connectivity in cities is fine (I pay like 10 USD for symmetric 60 megabyte/s fiber), but villages are few and far between, and it's simply not economical to cover them with fiber: you'll need thousands of kilometers of it to cover maybe a few thousand people. Maybe it will be practical when/if the country has 20-30 times the population. The government has already provided many rural schools with Starlink terminals, and many locations which only recently didn't have internet connectivity now do have it. Apparently they don't see something you do.
- breadwinner 2y agoThere is a national security risk angle to this. Elon has been talking to Putin and Putin has been making requests on behalf of Xi Jinping such as not turning on Starlink over Taiwan [1]. Musk has also been turning off Starlink when he decides there is a risk of nuclear war [2]. An American corporation undermining American foreign policy is a security risk. No citizen, especially a crazy one like Elon, should have this much power. [1] https://www.wsj.com/world/russia/musk-putin-secret-conversations-37e1c187 https://www.wsj.com/world/russia/musk-putin-secret-conversat... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66752264 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66752264
- bryanlarsen 2y ago> turning off Starlink He didn't turn it off, he refused to turn it on over Crimea when Ukraine requested he do so. Turning it on without the permission of the State Department would have been illegal.
- swarnie 2y agoAn American company providing American services via American government funding with a founder who can't leave the next American presidents beach house if he tried undermines American foreign policy. If i wanted to control a country and couldn't get my hands on their banking system i guess their communication systems would do... I just dont see it somehow.
- immibis 2y agoCountries are choosing to align themselves with China and Russia rather than the US, so this shouldn't be a problem for those countries.
- NewJazz 2y agoKorea, Japan, Phillipines, Taiwan, Australia, India might have different thoughts
- ImJamal 2y agoElon literally didn't turn it on because of the US government rules. How is a person / company doing what the government wants undermining government policy?
- josefritzishere 2y agoHow can you state something is cheaper when it doesnt have fixed rates? That claim can only be true at a relatively narrow, fixed point in time.
- pelagicAustral 2y agoIt is also the case in the Falkland Islands, where the horrendous de-facto ISP charges £110 a month for 100 GB [0] of data usage at a top download speed of 5 (five, literal five [V in roman]) MBPS, while Starlink offers unlimited usage for £60 per month at an average download speed of 130 MBPS. We are still facing challenges due to an exclusive license government have with this company, known for their predatory conduct [1]... People here are having to use Chilean addresses to register the kits and pay for a mobile package. [0] https://www.sure.co.fk/broadband/broadband-packages/ https://www.sure.co.fk/broadband/broadband-packages/ [1] https://guernseypress.com/news/2024/10/02/sure-ordered-to-pay-back-115000-after-overcharging/ https://guernseypress.com/news/2024/10/02/sure-ordered-to-pa...
- lxgr 2y agoIs Starlink also officially prohibited like in Saint Helena [1]? Seems to be a very similar situation (down to the same ISP Sure!). That said, there I do somewhat see the benefits of giving a fibreoptics provider exclusivity for a while in such a small market. [1] https://www.sainthelena.gov.sh/2023/news/reminder-on-the-use-of-unlicensed-telecommunications-equipment/ https://www.sainthelena.gov.sh/2023/news/reminder-on-the-use..., previous discussion see also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37645945 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37645945
- Havoc 2y agoFor what it's worth Sure in Jersey (channel islands) was fantastic. 80ish bucks for symetrical unlimited gigabit
- yardstick 2y agoJersey is in a vastly different geographic situation. It’s super close to UK & Europe, so cost of trade is massively more economical than these other places in the middle of nowhere. Economies of scale work for small countries in populous first world regions.
- pelagicAustral 2y ago
- bhouston 2y agoThis may be an incorrect generalization, but I thought I read that in much of Africa, people do not really use fixed ISPs. They just use the cell phone infrastructure for their internet needs via their phones. I understand this is because cell phone infrastructure is a lot cheaper to roll out and also that there was less desktop computers, etc to plug into ethernet cables. So this article seems to be comparing against something that isn't very popular in the first place - fixed ISPs.
- ekwogefee 2y agoIt's cheaper, at least where I live in Central Africa. You can pay as your budget allows — per day, per hour, night bundles, or even smaller data packages like 150MB. Public Wi-Fi isn’t common in places like malls, gyms, schools, offices, or hospitals here. However, mobile data ensures you stay connected on your cellphone. I've switched between three ISPs in the past three months, all of which have been disappointing, mainly due to poor customer service. With cellular data, I can easily top up using mobile money whenever my data runs out. I also use my phone’s hotspot to connect my PCs at home or on the go.
- ge96 2y ago150MB? damn, that's like a SPA
- bigfatkitten 2y agoThere are lots of lazy software 'engineers' in wealthy western nations who just assume everyone, everywhere has unlimited 5G or gigabit fibre, and that the size of their 150MB React monstrosity or the 300 API calls it makes when you click a button don't matter.
- ge96 2y agoIt's an exaggeration 10x but yeah MBs is not unheard of edit: it's funny there was this cool sports car demo with scrolling animations and if you looked at the code, it loaded like a 1000 images to do the animation
- throwaway463537 2y ago[dead]
- scoobytusk 2y agoproblem is musk has shown that he can shut a country down on a whim. we've seen him doing with starlink with ukraine, and twitter with... anyone that opposes him. for all the great things starlink does and is, it should not be at the whims of a egomaniacal drug addict.
- crowcroft 2y agoUnbelievable value for money. Will it be possible for Starlink to ever be better than proper fibre though? It's probably already at a point where from a cost vs. benefit perspective I don't know if we should be laying a lot more cable, but I wonder if it will ever make the existing cables obsolete.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- daveoc64 2y agoNo. Starlink won't be able to offer enough capacity to completely eliminate fibre, even in rural areas.
- crowcroft 2y agoI can see that being true in high density areas, but I've got to think even now it's good enough that you really should question if rural areas should bother with fibre?
- lurking_swe 2y agoit will never be better than fiber for the simple fact that’s it’s less reliable. The “uptime” of a fiber connection to the home will most likely be higher than a fiber-like connection from a satellite. And you’ll have better “ping”. Fiber doesn’t care about cloudy days, typical storms, etc. Starlink is of course superior when there’s a massive natural disaster, or major power loss to your region. Or if you’re in a rural area with zero other good options.
- udosan 2y agoI‘ve had Starlink for over 2 years, not had a single perceptible minute of outage including in thunderstorms. Might have been slower than usual but not enough to notice. I switched because fibre in our rural area was way less reliable.
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- arschfick 2y ago[dead]
- somethoughts 2y agoWithout seeing the underlying costs its hard to really know if this is like early Uber/Lyft where investors are trying subsidizing growth of a service in order to grow marketshare. Long term - once the local ISPs are out of business, then do prices go up and to either cover costs and/or excess profits start to go to the investors.
- kwakubiney 2y agoA bit skeptical about the article because in Ghana, Starlink is mostly used by the elites. Majority of people stick to mobile data or the local ISPs because it is known to be cheaper. Also, I wonder which fixed ISP the writers speak of (with respect to Ghana) because those price ranges seem a bit too extreme to be that popular in Ghana. And also, way more expensive than what the local ISPs provide. Edit: It seems I might be wrong and the perceived high cost comes from the actual starlink device and not the internet plan. The article just compares the internet plan prices. The cost of the device and the restrictions on usage (can’t use in different locations etc) serves a deterrent to the average Ghanaian anyway.
- applied_heat 2y agoIn Canada I am going to threaten changing to starlink the when my new telus fibre comes up for renewal and they inevitably want to double the price, and also I would be pleased to never have to use Rogers again
- inemesitaffia 2y agoHeadline is right but the numbers in the article are wrong