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Probably a bunch of factors... Tier 1 city RE prices have made live entertainment venues harder to run profitably. GenZ studies have found a lower participati

• spamizbad 2y ago
  > GenZ studies have found a lower participation in "risky behavior" which late night clubbing may or not be considered. I think they just do different risk-taking behavior. Sports betting seems way more prevalent, and Gamblers Anonymous is reporting way more younger people attending meetings.
  • throaway920 2y ago
    and risky porn is at an all time high
• jamestimmins 2y ago
  It's shocking how often the answer to "How come X changed?" is either the creation of the internet or the cost of real estate. Surprisingly often, it's both.
  • dnissley 2y ago
    This is the housing theory of everything
  • KeplerBoy 2y ago
    It's interesting how the creation of the internet still hasn't caused real estate prices to plummet. Even two years of covid couldn't do it.
    • aylmao 2y ago
      It did affect housing. I remember the great deals one could find when remote work was in full swing, and all that was said about vacant office, or smaller cities growing at the expense of bigger ones. It was only two years though. An industry can hold off and fight back in that time.
    • wpm 2y ago
      Supply is artificially limited.
      • vidanay 2y ago
        Not commercial RE
        • graeme 2y ago
          Yes it is. There's no zoning law that says "You can only build houses here, no apartment, unless you build commercial real estate" Commercial real estate is generally illegal anywhere dense housing is also illegal.
        • darth_avocado 2y ago
          Commercial RE too. When you say supply is constrained, they don’t mean there’s no RE available, they mean RE isn’t available at a lower price. Most cities in the US right now have a huge commercial RE vacancy rate, yet if you try to lease it, you’re not getting rates that a free market low demand situation is going to get you.
      • Tade0 2y ago
        Supply can't possibly keep up when real estate is used as an investment. As an analogy to the dead internet hypothesis I present the dead real estate market hypothesis. Increasingly it's just investors buying and selling properties from each other. And it's not just a hypothesis. China built enough homes to house its population twice over, yet it's not reflected in the prices. All because everyone and their grandma is investing in real estate.
  • adverbly 2y ago
    It's shocking how often the answer to real estate issues is "land value tax would fix this!"
    • deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    • some_random 2y ago
      I'll bite, how would land value tax fix raves not being profitable enough to afford their venues? It seems to me like it make things worse.
      • owisd 2y ago
        The theory is that (a) the tax would be paid by the property owner and not the venue (it is assumed rent follows an econ 102 inelastic supply model) and (b) property would be less attractive as a store of wealth so prices would drop.
    • CamperBob2 2y ago
      Seems like that would guarantee that only the most profitable uses of a given property would be contemplated by the owner.
      • permo-w 2y ago
        exactly, so those people who own an old empty warehouse, a large basement, or whatever, now have a huge incentive to find uses for them. or they have to sell them which pushes prices down for everything
        • CamperBob2 2y ago
          But what good does it do to push prices down, if even more money has to be paid in taxes for as long as they own the property?
          • 2y ago
  • mrguyorama 2y ago
    More like "How come the younger generations aren't doing <Fun thing>?" Because they can't afford it. Also my belief is that people don't do anything anymore because nobody gets really bored anymore. Boredom is a powerful motivator to make plans, set up clubs, find interests, meet people etc. Now you just swipe through instagram for a few minutes and boom, no more boredom.
    • epolanski 2y ago
      I don't buy it. Going to a club is cheap, in most you only pay for drinks which a bit more expensive than in a pub, but it's not breaking the bank. Here in Italy you can go to a club and spend less than 10€s for the night if you don't have to eat. I'll say what the issue with clubs are: plenty of people never got there to have fun but to meet people and get laid. Now dating apps have removed the need for youth to go to clubs.
      • BigGreenJorts 2y ago
        Obviously we live in different places, but I finished uni in Canada not too long ago and going to the club during uni was expensive. There was often a cover, if you want drinks at the bar, they'll be like 10-15$ each, if you drink at home, it's much cheaper. So usually we'd pre and then make our way to the club. But often , we'd get a little too drunk/high at home or enjoy one another's company enough that we never made it to the bar! Or if the idea was to meet new people there were often house parties where they played music, people were dancing etc anyway, they were free, didn't require lining up/id checks and often enough we're close enough to where we lived that walking home would've been easy.
        • SamBam 2y ago
          Right, but rave culture used to be the antithesis of cover prices and fancy drinks. Rave culture was very much the domain of the transient, the semi-homeless, the youth that had left their parents houses without much money. (Plus some trust-fund kids of course, but they really weren't the majority.) So "can't afford it" isn't an explanation for the decline in rave culture, even if it might be a reason kids don't go out to clubs today.
  • tbrownaw 2y ago
    > It's shocking how often the answer to "How come X changed?" is either the creation of the internet or the cost of real estate. Why is it shocking? The Internet is the current Big Thing that's upending everything the way previous Big Things (steam engine, movable type, etc) did. And real estate prices are one of the central coordination mechanisms for arranging things in the physical world.
  • brabel 2y ago
    When my mom was teen, she says the way they had the most fun was to go to dancing parties in people's houses and sometimes in some special venue for younger people. That was in the 60's. As I grew up in the 80's we had nothing like that, we just went to night clubs or some street full of bars/restaurants. Dancing was mostly a thing you did by yourself, like in most night clubs still these days, not like she describes, with "their faces touching" :D. It seems to me that every single generation changed and there needs not be an external reason for that other than young people wanting to do things the way they see fit, which normally is anything different from what their parents see as ideal.
    • AtlasBarfed 2y ago
      Boomers basically pulled up the social ladder of fun when it wasn't convenient to them anymore. Technology combined with oligarchy is really leading to a demographic and social disaster. I think the iron placenta and designer babies are the only things that will prevent population collapse. Well, age extension will probably kick in too. It's a race between us killing the worlds biosphere and us fading away to nothingness right now. I think there's plenty of population momentum to kill off the planet
    • ethbr1 2y ago
      Imho, the internet / mobile apps have drastically atrophied younger generations' face-to-face social interaction skills. And specifically their appetite for the risk/discomfort that goes along with living in realtime physical moments with other people. Human beings are awkward as hell, but that's what laughter and tolerance are the bridges for.
      • sitharus 2y ago
        There’s an unspoken phrase here, it’s “in the way I think it should be done”. Just because the younger generation are doing things differently it doesn’t make them wrong, in my generation it was sending text messages that was wrong because we weren’t talking on the phone. Before that it was talking on the phone rather than going to people’s houses. I’ll also add what my psychologist told me. Social skills aren’t innate in humans, we have to be taught them. Smaller family sizes and greater distances from extended family mean these aren’t taught by older siblings/cousins/etc like the used to and parents aren’t filling the gap, which means standards of social interaction are changing much more rapidly.
  • BriggyDwiggs42 2y ago
    Since people keep trying to draw the connection, I’ll try my hand. The Internet is the most recent technology that is enabled a small number of individuals to become vastly wealthy alongside, of course, a certain lax style of government. As wealth inequality increases, more of the money in the economy becomes tied up in wealthy people’s investments and savings, which inflates asset prices.
• UltraSane 2y ago
  Seems like rent is so high in big cities that so many businesses are no longer possible. I think one solution to lower rent is a rule that for every month a rental property is vacant its book value declines by 10 times the rent.
  • post-it 2y ago
    > I think one solution to lower rent is a rule that for every month a rental property is vacant its book value declines by 10 times the rent. Wouldn't that just lower its property tax, thereby making it more profitable for owners to leave venues unrented (compared to the status quo)?
    • UltraSane 2y ago
      Right now commercial real estate owners are incentivized to never lower rent even if a property is vacant for a long time because the book value of the property is tied to its rental rate even if it is vacant.
  • gosub100 2y ago
    My fantasy solution is that ALL businesses near expensive areas must pay a minimum wage high enough to rent a place (or a room) there. If the barista must be paid $109k to afford to live there, then let Starbucks jack the price of a plain black coffee to $17 for a small. Fewer people will be willing to pay this, Starbucks will go out of business and virtually nothing will fill its place. Suddenly these multimillion dollar homes will be in barren wastelands and, gee, maybe they won't be worth so much anymore. A softer solution is to pay the low wage workers from the time they leave the front door, if the wages are insufficient to live nearby.
    • UltraSane 2y ago
      I've had the same idea. 1 week of after tax wages must be enough to pay 1 month's rent within x miles on a y sq ft apartment. And people should be paid for commuting. Unpaid commutes to work are a huge hidden subsidy for businesses. They use tax funded roads to allow workers to live farther away in cheaper locations and don't have to compensate them for the time needed to get to their jobs.
• HellDunkel 2y ago
  My guess is: the pandemic and online dating.
  • CalChris 2y ago
    The pandemic killed off a lot of social structures. The casual carpool going from various East Bay locations to downtown San Francisco is gone. The reward for the driver picking people up (express lane, lower toll) is the same. The people are largely the same. But the institution didn't magically restart after COVID.
• post-it 2y ago
  > Tier 1 city RE prices have made live entertainment venues harder to run profitably. Which, in turn, makes events that do happen more expensive, decreasing turnout. If there's a Friday night event for CA$15 with CA$5 drinks, I'm much more likely to go than if it costs CA$50 with CA$15 drinks.
  • dehrmann 2y ago
    And that makes the city less desirable, so fewer people live there, and RE prices find an equilibrium.
    • anigbrowl 2y ago
      Real life does not behave like an econ 101 class. Real estate in particular does not allow for perfect competition - there are significant entry and exit costs, and demand/supply tend toward inelasticity.
    • shermantanktop 2y ago
      No, it makes it more desirable for older people who don't want raves down the block, and who also have more money, increasing the RE prices. The average age goes up, the number of interesting energetic people goes down, and the city becomes a cultural desert with high RE prices. Yes, that's an equilibrium, but Adam Smith's invisible hand just gave you a shitty city and undercut cultural innovation.
    • ren_engineer 2y ago
      not when the majority of real estate is being bought by investors just looking for a place to throw money regardless of price. That's the main issue in Canada and in tier 1 cities in the US. The people owning the RE don't live there
• MisterTea 2y ago
  > Tier 1 city RE prices have made live entertainment venues harder to run profitably. Abandoned warehouses and other commercial building you could host a rave were once plenty in NYC. No more. Hell when I was a kid there were three abandoned factory buildings in my neighborhood we'd break into and become our "club house" in grade school. You just had to watch for squatters and neighbors calling the cops. Now you're lucky if there are even lots around - most have been built on already.
  • harvodex 2y ago
    Exactly. All the places I went to 30 years ago for a rave are now nice areas. Someone would call the cops for the amount of noise now before the party even started. Then factor in fentanyl. Maybe most of all though, in the mid 90s electronic music was a new thing in the US. The first rave I went to , I really didn't even know what I was going to. The reason I stopped going was the novelty had completely worn off. Amazing times but the falloff was rather steep.
    • throaway920 2y ago
      I remember when techno was the sound of the future. Now it sounds like something from the age of industrialization.
  • stickfigure 2y ago
    The craziest thing happened this NYE. I live in the country, more or less Bay Area, at the end of a long (2-3mi) dead end road. My neighbor's house is empty and posted for sale. Someone broke in and threw a rave there. The party was advertised online and they were selling tickets: https://monosnap.com/direct/YxtOr5VARRXTAIr2Ej9ae5KCjAjRfn https://monosnap.com/direct/YxtOr5VARRXTAIr2Ej9ae5KCjAjRfn The owners (who live across the street) confronted them immediately. Bouncers dressed in "security" shirts forced them away. It took 1.5 hours for the sheriffs to show up. The whole neighborhood is traumatized.
    • MisterTea 2y ago
      Sounds like a house party. Though I guess it could be a rave as well, just a small one. Better than squatters I guess.
• grahamj 2y ago
  I would add that ravers grew up. Kids don’t want to do what their parents did.
• steve_adams_86 2y ago
  I was going to say "when I was a kid, raves happened out in the woods where there is no real estate cost", but then I realized the lack of socializing or risky behaviours pretty much eliminates this form of partying today, haha. It's also impossible for kids living in most population centres. I guess it was just a weird rural-kid thing here in Western Canada. I wasn't a raver but I went to a couple, and wow, what a time. There's nothing quite like the smell of a diesel generator and the sound of earth-shaking bass surrounded by dancing zombies inventing dance moves on each beat, deep in a pacific north west forest. I had a few of friends who were into that scene.
  • bballer 2y ago
    This is still how we do it in Mexico, but instead of the woods, its in a Arroyo, wedged between a mountain and a beach. Good stuff.
  • drowntoge 2y ago
    Gen≠Z here, and that does sound like the best party ever.
  • arrowsmith 2y ago
    These parties existed in England in the late 2000s. I went to a few, and they usually resembled a zombie apocalypse. No idea what the UK rave scene is like these days.
  • schlch 2y ago
    These kind of parties are still happening. At least in Europe this is still a thing. I’m in my thirties and have been involved with these kind of parties for at least ten years. A general trend that I have been observing for years though is what usually is being referred to as „TikTok Guys“. This involves guys and girls in their early twenties wearing fetish outfits and doing lots of drugs. I don’t care about people coming in fetish outfits to our parties but I don’t want some young guy overdose on one our parties. In practice this means that we have been much more careful about who knows when and where a party is happening.
• beepbopboopp 2y ago
  I actually think those are not the main factors. What really happened was for the first time in history, there was competition on how you could talk and "hang" with friends. Mobile phones and then social media made it so people would go out, then check their phones, socials and not even be present there and then ultimately the next time theyd opt-to to stay home and do what they were gonna do at the club at home. This seems like mostly a case of competition for activity than anything.
  • randomopining 2y ago
    This is it. The phone scrolling has become so addicting that people just go on their phones. And audio quality. You can enjoy the music sometimes at better quality in your own home and scrolling all the same.
• hinkley 2y ago
  Narcotics and alcohol use is also down in this generation, and I wonder if that’s the risky behavior aspect vs marijuana legalization. I’d like to see a study that broke down by state to see if there’s any correlation there. The forbidden fruit is sweetest. If you can go get THC gummies whenever then you don’t need to grab whatever is available right now. But I think too that Covid is a huge problem. Rave age now is people who were at a delicate phase of interpersonal development five years ago. And just hanging out in crowded places is now risky behavior. Living in a world freshly built to cater specifically to them did strange things to Baby Boomer’s heads. COVID is going to do something equally bad to GenZ (and A) in more or less the opposite direction and I worry what it will be.
• escapecharacter 2y ago
  the best raves these days have great anti-phone measures: - stickers on cameras - you can’t even take your phone out of your pocket on the dance floor Some places I visited in Berlin even required checking in your phone at coat check. These were the best-organized coat checks I’d seen in my life.
• UncleOxidant 2y ago
  I think we could say that covid killed a lot of these activities (some were already in decline, but covid delivered the final blow). GenZ just happened to be coming of age during the pandemic years and thus prefers to stay home as they see that as normative. Millennials are past the rave stage as they're getting into their 40s.
  • ghaff 2y ago
    I hesitate to write a lot of things off to COVID because, if you look at some presentations/papers from early on in the pandemic, a lot of things probably changed less than the "experts" thought they would. That said, I also see various things that were on a downward trajectory or cruising on momentum being given a downward shove by COVID.
    • Animats 2y ago
      A friend who used to run big late-night parties in San Francisco said the big change started after the 2008 recession. Many of the twentysomethings who were laid off left town, and the ones who remained were working longer hours.
      • alsetmusic 2y ago
        I was on the scene in the Bay Area in the 2000s. I went to warehouse parties and secret raves that required calling a number to find out where to get picked up to keep the location secret. It was vibrant and a lot of fun. There were at least two sites that I knew of for keeping track of parties (bayraves.com was one, I don’t recall the other). The scene was dying at the same time that I was aging out, but I sure miss it. When I lived in the Midwest, the scene died when ecstasy became a known quantity in mainstream news media. The last rave that I went to (there) was loaded with a million cops. An org that offered free testing for purity / adulterants was told they’d be arrested for testing any pills. What a backward and unhelpful position to take when people may be at risk of an OD. Ecstasy was still generally clean at the time. I’d be afraid to take an unknown pill today, what with fentanyl and the like.
• ethbr1 2y ago
  > In the 90s/00s my consumption of electronic music was mp3 downloads of BBC late night recordings. 'This. is. Radio. One. Essential... Essential...'
  • steveBK123 2y ago
    That’s right
  • _DeadFred_ 2y ago
    chills
• jejeyyy77 2y ago
  none of these seem to resonate based on what I see anecdotally
• mikepurvis 2y ago
  I'm a millennial (38) who never participated in the "risky behaviour" that is raving, clubbing, hooking up, etc. What I do do though is travel for swing dance events [1], which often involves live music, bluesy late night parties, etc. I also have friends who do similar for salsa dancing and board game / anime / nerd conventions. So I wonder if part of this is that "staying up late doing fun thing with semi-strangers" has expanded to more domains than freestyle dancing to electronic music? [1]: eg https://dclx.org/ https://dclx.org/ https://www.instagram.com/bal_moment/ https://www.instagram.com/bal_moment/ https://www.balweek.com/about https://www.balweek.com/about
  • bradlys 2y ago
    Swing dance is down overall compared to ten+ years ago in NA. There are way less events. The events don't go as late either. It used to be that almost every event would go to 5am. The crowd at these events is much older now too. It used to be primarily under 30 and now it's well over 30.
    • mikepurvis 2y ago
      Losing all the campus clubs for two years really impacted things, and I think there was also a big loss in mid-sized events, but hopefully things do still continue to recover. Certainly there is still loads of enthusiasm, especially in the Balboa world, where the flow aesthetics and high skill ceiling really appeal to obsessive types.
      • bradlys 2y ago
        It appeals to old people. Young people aren’t coming back. It’s been on a downward trend for longer than the pandemic started.
        • mikepurvis 2y ago
          It appealed to me as a 20 year old engineering student, eighteen years ago. And I see lots of 20s and 30s still out at big events; I wouldn't write the decline off as being about anything intrinsic to the activity.
• technotarek 2y ago
  RE prices were zero in my rave days : https://technotarek.com/shows/richie-hawtin https://technotarek.com/shows/richie-hawtin
  • brabel 2y ago
    Exactly. People used to organize stuff in the middle of some forest and miraculously hundreds of people showed up.
• racl101 2y ago
  > And finally electronic music of various forms used to be a niche, and now it's mainstream. I think this is definitely the biggest reason. The average YouTube video probably has serious electronic music going for it. Back in the '80s and '90s you felt rebellious listening to that stuff. Now it's so common it borders on proverbial. I'd probably go to a public venue that plays 90s and 2000s electronic music but for me it would be the equivalent of my boomer mom going to a Fleetwood Mac concert in the '90s. Just more nostalgia than a desire to relive the rave days. There's no way I could dance the way I used to in the '90s. There would need to be seating there for my old Xennial butt.
• lemax 2y ago
  There is still a vast web of international niche electronic music scenes and artists, and elements of electronic music as well as the instruments used to produce it have been used in popular music for many decades (Donna Summer, 80s new wave bands, Madonna, etc).
• veunes 2y ago
  It’s wild to think how much smartphones and social media have changed things...
• hnlmorg 2y ago
  Late night raves might be in the decline but day raves are increasing in popularity. I think the biggest factor for the decline of night raves is just that people are more health conscious and night raves takes a lot of toll on the body.
• Earw0rm 2y ago
  Online dating. I guarantee that only about one in five male clubbers were truly "only there for the music". Maybe fewer than that. Women went along with it because, well, what was the alternative, and the contemporary culture encouraged it. Online dating has its problems, certainly, but the risks people took in the 70s, 80s, 90s were kind of insane by today's standards. And also the amount of unwanted attention women had to put up with. Sure, some of the attention was wanted, but surely not most of it.
  • stefankorun 2y ago
    The risks are called living your life – there is a inherent risk with traveling, hiking, wandering around as a kid, and almost any activity outside of staring at a screen.
    • Earw0rm 2y ago
      I said by today's standards.. women going home with some random guy without anyone even having a phone number for them. No mobiles, no net, no nothing. And in most cases that worked out fine, but today people would think it insane to even suggest that.
      • herbst 2y ago
        That's you not "people" who think that's insane by today's standard.
      • listenallyall 2y ago
        The enormous amount of fear that has been injected into society, seemingly permanently, disguised as "safety" (i.e. framing a negative as a positive) is one of, or perhaps THE, the most detrimental factors to the health of that society, and is actively harming the development of people growing up within it.
        • ty6853 2y ago
          Life is much safer now so mundane relative risks look much worse. When illness or famine lurks a every corner, no one is questioning a kid venturing 3 miles on his bike to buy mom a pack of smokes and buy himself some Cracker Jacks. Now you're considered Satan if you allow that and some prosecutor will ramble about predators and kidnapping at your trial.
• rurp 2y ago
  > Mobile internet & smartphones seem to be killing all forms of live in person interaction. Right, most types of social gatherings have decreased over the past 15 years. Events that haven't fallen off are the noteworthy ones.
• leptons 2y ago
  The quality of today's electronic music has gone way down too, it's just not really appealing at all. My wife who was very much a raver in the 90's calls the new music "alarm clock sounds" - something designed to annoy instead of make you dance. It's just so abrasive and lacking any funkiness or danceability at all. It's no wonder kids these days are turning towards other forms of entertainment. My niece who is her early 20s is into Pearl Jam. At least their music has some kind of soul to it.