6 ms·

"every team working to improve the customer experience - guided by leadership priorities and initiatives" The fundamental issue is that in almost all larger co

"every team working to improve the customer experience - guided by leadership priorities and initiatives" The fundamental issue is that in almost all larger companies, upper management does not trust that their employees are either intrinsically motivated to do a good job, or are smart enough to determine what "a good job" is. So rather than having a chain of trust from upper management to middle management to individual contributors, they seek to create a measurable control system. This inevitably replaces people's intrinsic motivation to do a good job with an extrinsic motivation, which only poorly represents the company's actual goals. At this point, most people are no longer trying to do a good job, they're instead trying to make their numbers look good. Upper management has effectively replaced real, meaningful work with a game where everybody tries to score points, and the people who don't participate in that game are eventually stackranked out of the company.

blased 2y ago
best explanation I've seen, this describes the org I'm at
cnotv 2y ago
This literally applies to everything in this world except global warming :D
- PaulHoule 2y ago
  $400 a tonne CO2 tax ($4 on a gallon of gas) is enough to modify behavior and encourage real CCS. This could be rebated to consumers (everybody gets a $6500 check a year) to make it revenue neutral. Two problems: (1) A legitimacy gap. People think taxation is on ratchet and wouldn't trust it to be revenue neutral and not a money grab. (2) It's a global problem. If there is a carbon tax in the US and no carbon tax in China that's unfair for our manufacturers. People will complain about the fairness of any particular rebating scheme inside the US, but there will always be much worse complaints about a system which embraces all nations from Luxembourg to Burundi.
  - ericd 2y ago
    For #2, most proposals I’ve seen aim to put domestic products on a level playing field with products from countries without an equivalent tax with a “border adjustment”, a sort of tariff that’s based on the carbon intensity of the product (with a pessimistic estimate if they don’t know). This has the side effect of encouraging other countries to adopt similar carbon taxes. The EU is implementing something like that, and we’re seeing an uptick in appetite in the US to implement a border adjustment here, partly as a result, there were a few bills put forward in the last Congress, though nothing has gotten very far yet.
  - marcosdumay 2y ago
    Besides the tariff on imported products the sibling talks about, you can also rebate the tax paid on exported products. It's not simple to manage those adjustments, but governments deal with much more complex taxes everywhere. It's not a big deal. And yeah, the UBI cancellation of the tax, the tariffs on imported products and the rebate on exported products deal with every single problem I've seen people post about a carbon tax, except for "expensive gasoline will destroy our economy!", that is almost always pushed by people that live in a place with some of the cheapest gasoline prices of the world. There is an add-on that some people push where you don't cancel all of the tax in an UBI, but use a part of it to finance carbon capture projects. I do really like this one, but it's not something that is required for things to work.
    - PaulHoule 2y ago
      Exactly. Somebody should be able to capture carbon and get a rebate from that. I like it that you can spend your UBI on expensive gas or to get an electric car or ride a bike, walk, WFH or whatever and pocket all of your rebate.
  - dowager_dan99 2y ago
    you forgot (3) an efficiency gap. No government or quasi-governmental organization can deliver this program without massive leakage. Look at Canada: carbon taxes go into general revenues, and some portion of it gets paid out of general revenues. It also doesn't matter if the payment is a redistribution or an ad buy for a terrible commercial on the CBC - it's all fighting climate change!
yellow_postit 2y ago
A less cynical take is that communicating consistently the priorities and tradeoffs the company wants to make as they get larger is a hopeful use of OKRs. In small teams/companies “the right thing” can be obvious and the team can operate in a shared headspace with low cycle time to discuss and decide tradeoffs when they arise. This gets really problematic at scale. Now back to the cynicism — it’s also tricky when you want to hide the ball and make teams feel ok about doing bad things: make time spent go up is the goal, who cares if there’s addiction along the way.
- InsideOutSanta 2y ago
  I just fundamentally don't believe that most people in most companies have an understanding of the company's priorities that is worse than what an OKR encodes. In fact, my experience is that most people in larger companies believe, and are correct in believing, that they are forced to intentionally make worse decisions because better decisions have negative impacts on their measured performance. I've been part of an extremely effective 200 people company that got acquired by a 4000 people company. We all understood why we were acquired, we built a platform that solved a fundamental problem the larger company had. After the acquisition, this larger company's OKR and measurement system was implemented for our teams. We initially all ignored the system and went on as usual, starting to implement our platform. Initially, things went well, we made steady progress and started migrating legacy projects to out platform. Then, the annual stack ranking firings happened. Some of our best engineers were fired. Seeing this, many other top performers started looking for jobs immediately. The ones that got hired elsewhere started poaching even more top performers. The ones left started playing the numbers game to avoid being fired. Within a year, most people went from trying to solve the larger company's problem to optimizing their numbers. Within another year, the platform initiative had completely failed and was abandoned, with most of the remaining people being fired or integrated into other teams.
  - naijaboiler 2y ago
    that was the end result the company wanted. they bought out a competition and didnt intend to mometize it. so the engineers working on improving the acquisition were doing the opposit of what the buying company wanted
rybosworld 2y ago
For some reason, this is a controversial idea but: it's hard to argue that multiple layers of management can become anything other than bureaucracy. Corporations reward an individuals tenure and experience with increased decision making (often, this means manager title). That increase in decision making means that less senior IC's become less autonomous, even when they inevitably exceed their superior's experience on the topic. The level of autonomy is at odds with the number of managers. Some people argue this is a good thing. I argue that those people are just managers justifying their jobs.
- mandevil 2y ago
  I've been at hugely decentralized companies (several thousand engineers, one level of management between me as team lead and the actual executives). Each team was fully empowered to solve their problems in the best manner and they went off and did it. It had downsides. In particular, teams often encountered similar problems, and each team solved that problem differently. There was no one in a position to see that Team A and Team D were both solving problem theta, and that Team D's solution was better, and Team A should just use Team D's (or, more often, that we needed to detail an engineer to solve problem theta fully and get both teams to use that full solution rather than the jury-rig that each team had built). There was also no one to keep us informed that Team Ssang-giyeok had already solved the issue months ago and we could just use their solution. Internal communications like that are a scale problem: in a small company, the matrix of personal relationships is basically full, but as companies get larger, the matrix gets sparser and sparser. By the time you have a 100,000 employees in time zones all over the world your matrix is almost all 0's with only occasional 1s. And so information will travel quite poorly without people whose explicit tasks are to convey information to the right people. That's what managers and internal bureaucracy are supposed to do. Sometimes that information is "we need to build this and not that," sometimes it's "employee 24601 is great and should be given more responsibility," sometimes it's "this project is a Kafkaesque nightmare of un-ending pain that will never be delivered as scoped." But identifying this information and sharing it with the correct other people- that's what middle-management is supposed to do. Believe me, I am not generally a fan of bureaucracy (as I type this I'm supposed to be fixing a problem that is somewhere in the interface between my 100k employee company and another 100k+ employee company, and it's goddamn terrible), but it does have value beyond just fief-building.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
rqtwteye 2y ago
“The fundamental issue is that in almost all larger companies, upper management does not trust that their employees are either intrinsically motivated to do a good job, or are smart enough to determine what "a good job" is.” That’s what i have concluded a long time ago. Upper management has a deep distrust of their employees and acts accordingly. They will hire consultants or external people before they will listen to their employees. I think part of it is that a lot of them don’t really believe in anything themselves and only blindly try to fulfill goals set by their CEO or board of directors.
- stevenklein 2y ago
  Ideally management is working with IC teams to set good Key Results. Management shares context of what's important (objectives) and IC teams propose good quantitative measures (key results) of how they'll achieve it.
  - rqtwteye 2y ago
    Yes, “ideally”. I have never seen meaningful numbers as targets. Sometimes it works for a short term effort but in most cases you have ten different measures tha5 are important
- pbhjpbhj 2y ago
  Do they "not trust" or do they not have a clue whether to trust them?
  - rqtwteye 2y ago
    The result is the same. If a manager can’t judge whether their employees are trustworthy they are not competent for the job.
- JALTU 2y ago
  Consultants also provide political cover if things go sideways. Conversely, if the consultants operate well, the executive sponsor might be promoted and thus there is value delivered. But really the question is, "Are you working someplace where there is a culture of promoting from within?"
nradov 2y ago
Intrinsic motivation is great, it's a powerful force and can enable amazing accomplishments. But it's not something that management can necessarily rely upon. Sometimes there's shitty work that just has to get done for legal compliance or to meet customer demands or whatever, and to make that happen management needs a control system to create extrinsic motivation. In any large organization it's not possible to have everyone doing interesting, meaningful work.
- InsideOutSanta 2y ago
  I've never seen that actually be a problem when people were motivated and empowered to make decisions on their own. In my experience, people by and large don't mind doing boring work if they feel that it is necessary or valuable. I worked at a small company when GDPR was introduced, and people volunteered to read up on it, and work with an external lawyer to write specs on what we had to do, because they knew that it had to be done and wanted the company to succeed.
rescbr 2y ago
> Upper management has effectively replaced real, meaningful work with a game where everybody tries to score points, and the people who don't participate in that game are eventually stackranked out of the company. This. Got managed out of a previous employer as I didn't want to participate in the numbers game by focusing on the customer. If you are senior enough, you can get away with it for a long time. Customers liked me, account managers too (as their customers increased spending), and my manager (at the director level) had my back. That was all good until the day they put another management layer between the director and me...
- burningChrome 2y ago
  Was at a company for ten years and same thing. Although what happened was slightly different. I was a developer. Came in fresh faced and worked my ass off. Took on additional work, went to copious amounts of conferences, networked outside of team constantly, always finished my Sprint work ahead of time. Did everything a high performing dev would do. On a scale of 1-5, I was ranked a 3 (meeting expectations), barely any bonus, barely any salary increase. I was like, "WTF?!?!" and was naturally pretty pissed. Next year? Barely did anything. Came into the office for morning standup, left, worked from home rest of the day. I constantly took afternoons off, Still got work done on time, did the absolute minimal amount of work. I was "silently quitting" before anybody ever coined the phrase. Next years review? Yeap, you guessed it, another 3. That pretty much confirmed to me that nothing was ever going to change if I was working my ass off or just doing the absolute minimal amount of work. This lasted another two years before they finally offshored my team and I left the company with several great references. It was a great lesson to learn that its just a game, and you either do everything to stand out which has a high mental and emotional cost, or you simply refuse to play the game, retain your sanity, and look at your job as simply a means to an end as opposed to a satisfying career.
- mysticllama 2y ago
  i worked at a FAANG co and managed to make it 3 years focusing on solving problems that widely bothered users. there were several instances where i had to -fight- to ship critical bug fixes because the fixes so-happened to regress an obscure metric someone was baby-sitting… the first time this happened, i felt like my brain was going to explode -- so wait, you want me to leave the main app feed broken and people pissed off because the comment-notes-experience-home-ex team's weekly comment rate is slightly regressing? writing this out, not sure how i lasted as long as i did.

blased 2y ago

best explanation I've seen, this describes the org I'm at

cnotv 2y ago

This literally applies to everything in this world except global warming :D

PaulHoule 2y ago
$400 a tonne CO2 tax ($4 on a gallon of gas) is enough to modify behavior and encourage real CCS. This could be rebated to consumers (everybody gets a $6500 check a year) to make it revenue neutral. Two problems: (1) A legitimacy gap. People think taxation is on ratchet and wouldn't trust it to be revenue neutral and not a money grab. (2) It's a global problem. If there is a carbon tax in the US and no carbon tax in China that's unfair for our manufacturers. People will complain about the fairness of any particular rebating scheme inside the US, but there will always be much worse complaints about a system which embraces all nations from Luxembourg to Burundi.
- ericd 2y ago
  For #2, most proposals I’ve seen aim to put domestic products on a level playing field with products from countries without an equivalent tax with a “border adjustment”, a sort of tariff that’s based on the carbon intensity of the product (with a pessimistic estimate if they don’t know). This has the side effect of encouraging other countries to adopt similar carbon taxes. The EU is implementing something like that, and we’re seeing an uptick in appetite in the US to implement a border adjustment here, partly as a result, there were a few bills put forward in the last Congress, though nothing has gotten very far yet.
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  Besides the tariff on imported products the sibling talks about, you can also rebate the tax paid on exported products. It's not simple to manage those adjustments, but governments deal with much more complex taxes everywhere. It's not a big deal. And yeah, the UBI cancellation of the tax, the tariffs on imported products and the rebate on exported products deal with every single problem I've seen people post about a carbon tax, except for "expensive gasoline will destroy our economy!", that is almost always pushed by people that live in a place with some of the cheapest gasoline prices of the world. There is an add-on that some people push where you don't cancel all of the tax in an UBI, but use a part of it to finance carbon capture projects. I do really like this one, but it's not something that is required for things to work.
  - PaulHoule 2y ago
    Exactly. Somebody should be able to capture carbon and get a rebate from that. I like it that you can spend your UBI on expensive gas or to get an electric car or ride a bike, walk, WFH or whatever and pocket all of your rebate.
- dowager_dan99 2y ago
  you forgot (3) an efficiency gap. No government or quasi-governmental organization can deliver this program without massive leakage. Look at Canada: carbon taxes go into general revenues, and some portion of it gets paid out of general revenues. It also doesn't matter if the payment is a redistribution or an ad buy for a terrible commercial on the CBC - it's all fighting climate change!

yellow_postit 2y ago

A less cynical take is that communicating consistently the priorities and tradeoffs the company wants to make as they get larger is a hopeful use of OKRs. In small teams/companies “the right thing” can be obvious and the team can operate in a shared headspace with low cycle time to discuss and decide tradeoffs when they arise. This gets really problematic at scale. Now back to the cynicism — it’s also tricky when you want to hide the ball and make teams feel ok about doing bad things: make time spent go up is the goal, who cares if there’s addiction along the way.

InsideOutSanta 2y ago
I just fundamentally don't believe that most people in most companies have an understanding of the company's priorities that is worse than what an OKR encodes. In fact, my experience is that most people in larger companies believe, and are correct in believing, that they are forced to intentionally make worse decisions because better decisions have negative impacts on their measured performance. I've been part of an extremely effective 200 people company that got acquired by a 4000 people company. We all understood why we were acquired, we built a platform that solved a fundamental problem the larger company had. After the acquisition, this larger company's OKR and measurement system was implemented for our teams. We initially all ignored the system and went on as usual, starting to implement our platform. Initially, things went well, we made steady progress and started migrating legacy projects to out platform. Then, the annual stack ranking firings happened. Some of our best engineers were fired. Seeing this, many other top performers started looking for jobs immediately. The ones that got hired elsewhere started poaching even more top performers. The ones left started playing the numbers game to avoid being fired. Within a year, most people went from trying to solve the larger company's problem to optimizing their numbers. Within another year, the platform initiative had completely failed and was abandoned, with most of the remaining people being fired or integrated into other teams.
- naijaboiler 2y ago
  that was the end result the company wanted. they bought out a competition and didnt intend to mometize it. so the engineers working on improving the acquisition were doing the opposit of what the buying company wanted

rybosworld 2y ago

For some reason, this is a controversial idea but: it's hard to argue that multiple layers of management can become anything other than bureaucracy. Corporations reward an individuals tenure and experience with increased decision making (often, this means manager title). That increase in decision making means that less senior IC's become less autonomous, even when they inevitably exceed their superior's experience on the topic. The level of autonomy is at odds with the number of managers. Some people argue this is a good thing. I argue that those people are just managers justifying their jobs.

mandevil 2y ago
I've been at hugely decentralized companies (several thousand engineers, one level of management between me as team lead and the actual executives). Each team was fully empowered to solve their problems in the best manner and they went off and did it. It had downsides. In particular, teams often encountered similar problems, and each team solved that problem differently. There was no one in a position to see that Team A and Team D were both solving problem theta, and that Team D's solution was better, and Team A should just use Team D's (or, more often, that we needed to detail an engineer to solve problem theta fully and get both teams to use that full solution rather than the jury-rig that each team had built). There was also no one to keep us informed that Team Ssang-giyeok had already solved the issue months ago and we could just use their solution. Internal communications like that are a scale problem: in a small company, the matrix of personal relationships is basically full, but as companies get larger, the matrix gets sparser and sparser. By the time you have a 100,000 employees in time zones all over the world your matrix is almost all 0's with only occasional 1s. And so information will travel quite poorly without people whose explicit tasks are to convey information to the right people. That's what managers and internal bureaucracy are supposed to do. Sometimes that information is "we need to build this and not that," sometimes it's "employee 24601 is great and should be given more responsibility," sometimes it's "this project is a Kafkaesque nightmare of un-ending pain that will never be delivered as scoped." But identifying this information and sharing it with the correct other people- that's what middle-management is supposed to do. Believe me, I am not generally a fan of bureaucracy (as I type this I'm supposed to be fixing a problem that is somewhere in the interface between my 100k employee company and another 100k+ employee company, and it's goddamn terrible), but it does have value beyond just fief-building.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

rqtwteye 2y ago

“The fundamental issue is that in almost all larger companies, upper management does not trust that their employees are either intrinsically motivated to do a good job, or are smart enough to determine what "a good job" is.” That’s what i have concluded a long time ago. Upper management has a deep distrust of their employees and acts accordingly. They will hire consultants or external people before they will listen to their employees. I think part of it is that a lot of them don’t really believe in anything themselves and only blindly try to fulfill goals set by their CEO or board of directors.

stevenklein 2y ago
Ideally management is working with IC teams to set good Key Results. Management shares context of what's important (objectives) and IC teams propose good quantitative measures (key results) of how they'll achieve it.
- rqtwteye 2y ago
  Yes, “ideally”. I have never seen meaningful numbers as targets. Sometimes it works for a short term effort but in most cases you have ten different measures tha5 are important
pbhjpbhj 2y ago
Do they "not trust" or do they not have a clue whether to trust them?
- rqtwteye 2y ago
  The result is the same. If a manager can’t judge whether their employees are trustworthy they are not competent for the job.
JALTU 2y ago
Consultants also provide political cover if things go sideways. Conversely, if the consultants operate well, the executive sponsor might be promoted and thus there is value delivered. But really the question is, "Are you working someplace where there is a culture of promoting from within?"

nradov 2y ago

Intrinsic motivation is great, it's a powerful force and can enable amazing accomplishments. But it's not something that management can necessarily rely upon. Sometimes there's shitty work that just has to get done for legal compliance or to meet customer demands or whatever, and to make that happen management needs a control system to create extrinsic motivation. In any large organization it's not possible to have everyone doing interesting, meaningful work.

InsideOutSanta 2y ago
I've never seen that actually be a problem when people were motivated and empowered to make decisions on their own. In my experience, people by and large don't mind doing boring work if they feel that it is necessary or valuable. I worked at a small company when GDPR was introduced, and people volunteered to read up on it, and work with an external lawyer to write specs on what we had to do, because they knew that it had to be done and wanted the company to succeed.

rescbr 2y ago

> Upper management has effectively replaced real, meaningful work with a game where everybody tries to score points, and the people who don't participate in that game are eventually stackranked out of the company. This. Got managed out of a previous employer as I didn't want to participate in the numbers game by focusing on the customer. If you are senior enough, you can get away with it for a long time. Customers liked me, account managers too (as their customers increased spending), and my manager (at the director level) had my back. That was all good until the day they put another management layer between the director and me...

burningChrome 2y ago
Was at a company for ten years and same thing. Although what happened was slightly different. I was a developer. Came in fresh faced and worked my ass off. Took on additional work, went to copious amounts of conferences, networked outside of team constantly, always finished my Sprint work ahead of time. Did everything a high performing dev would do. On a scale of 1-5, I was ranked a 3 (meeting expectations), barely any bonus, barely any salary increase. I was like, "WTF?!?!" and was naturally pretty pissed. Next year? Barely did anything. Came into the office for morning standup, left, worked from home rest of the day. I constantly took afternoons off, Still got work done on time, did the absolute minimal amount of work. I was "silently quitting" before anybody ever coined the phrase. Next years review? Yeap, you guessed it, another 3. That pretty much confirmed to me that nothing was ever going to change if I was working my ass off or just doing the absolute minimal amount of work. This lasted another two years before they finally offshored my team and I left the company with several great references. It was a great lesson to learn that its just a game, and you either do everything to stand out which has a high mental and emotional cost, or you simply refuse to play the game, retain your sanity, and look at your job as simply a means to an end as opposed to a satisfying career.
mysticllama 2y ago
i worked at a FAANG co and managed to make it 3 years focusing on solving problems that widely bothered users. there were several instances where i had to -fight- to ship critical bug fixes because the fixes so-happened to regress an obscure metric someone was baby-sitting… the first time this happened, i felt like my brain was going to explode -- so wait, you want me to leave the main app feed broken and people pissed off because the comment-notes-experience-home-ex team's weekly comment rate is slightly regressing? writing this out, not sure how i lasted as long as i did.