19 ms·

How and Why I Stopped Buying New Laptops (2020)

132 points by mgd 2y ago

geek_at 2y ago
Use refurbed when possible. But obviously the "don't buy new" incentive only scales to a hard limit
- RajT88 2y ago
  I picked up a few years ago a refurb Dell for a little over 200 USD (with shipping 215). It is one of those big beasts with a number pad and decent GPU. I use it as a gaming PC. I was just last night playing Dead Island Riptide with default settings. It is probably the best computer purchase I have ever made. My advice: keep an eye out for Dell refurb deals on slickdeals.com. They occasionally have half-off deals, which is what I scored.
robin_reala 2y ago
(2020)
- cf100clunk 2y ago
  Yep, saw that too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36646791 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36646791 374 points, 530 comments
  - ksec 2y ago
    LOL I posted this in the previous thread >I am still on my MacBook Pro 2015 because of the Keyboard and Trackpad. So in about 2 years time this will be 10 years of usage. I dont intend to replace it any time soon. For browsing it is fast enough. And if you look at the Louis Rossman Channels it seems newer MBP just aren't built the same. It may be worth looking at it again I 2025. How little ( or big ) the past 10 years of Laptop has changed. May be time to look for a new MacBook especially when all of them now has 16GB memory by default.
    - nottorp 2y ago
      Jumping from x86 to arm may be worth it just because of how little power it needs. Perhaps you'd like a laptop where the fan never [*] turns on enough to be audible and with 20 hours battery life? They fixed the keyboard and the trackpad has been good even in the emoji keyboard models. Do get one with 32 Gb ram if you can. You never know what you'll want to use it for next year. [*] Of course, if you compile/run renders etc you may get to hear the fan and it won't last 20 hours.
      - layer8 2y ago
        The Lunar Lake laptops have reduced the power efficiency gap by a lot.
        nottorp 2y ago
        CPU wise or whole system wise? You can play some pretty taxing x86 3d games on my M3 pro laptops, in spite of the two layers of emulation. Those Lunar Lake laptops would need a GPU for that wouldn't they? Have they in the Wintel world figured out why Apple trackpads can actually act like a mouse replacement yet?
        7speter 2y ago
        The Lunar Lake SoC has a few (4 iirc) Battlemage GPU cores.
        layer8 2y ago
        Whole-system wise (they roughly doubled the battery life over the previous generation [0]), and the Intel SoCs have reasonably powerful integrated GPUs. I’m not a laptop user myself and don’t consider even Apple trackpads (I actually own one of their desktop trackpads) anywhere close to a viable mouse replacement, so no further comment on that. [0] e.g. https://www.extremetech.com/computing/first-intel-lunar-lake-laptop-test-shows-almost-24-hour-battery-life https://www.extremetech.com/computing/first-intel-lunar-lake...
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johnea 2y ago
> On the contrary, the only thing a consumer can do to improve their laptop’s ecological and economic sustainability is to use it for as long as possible. This is true for everything, not just laptops. Any purchasing that occurrs on a fashion cycle is largly a rip off...
- jll29 2y ago
  I believe most people do not WANT a new device, as getting used to new ways and new quirks is a unproductive distraction. For instance, I would pay a lot to get my BlackBerry back, screw all that app bloarware nonsense. Fast email, phone, a good keyboard and long battery life, that is a winning combination, from a user's perspective. (And I actually prefer devices with no camera or microphone in it, for security reasons.)
- bluGill 2y ago
  That depends on what you do. a newer cpu is often enough more efficent per unit of work as to pay for itself. I first calculated this when we were arguing if the price of a 80486 was worth it over the cheaper 80386 and if you kept it busy 24x7 you would pay for the new computer in a year from your electric bill (more in summer when you need ac)
  - Jolter 2y ago
    The idea of the article is to not run the newer, more demanding software which drives the replacement cycle. Instead install a lightweight Linux or similar and don’t use all those extra CPU cycles.
    - bluGill 2y ago
      But even then wht if you ran the lite linux on the newest. Would the increased efficiency pay for it?
rustcleaner 2y ago
Maybe for OpenBSD. These days I am parano... savvy and prudent enough to not trust security swiss-cheese software bare metal, and so I box it all up into qubes with Qubes OS. For Qubes, it's always best to max out RAM, core count, and GPU count (AI). Libreboot laptops don't cut it if you want to run seven isolated chat/social profiles on seven separate VPN/Tor connections while also running LM Studio in an offline GPU-passed qube, to obfuscate cross-profile lexical correlations.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  > seven isolated chat/social profiles on seven separate VPN/Tor connections Bravo for you, but surely you realize that almost nobody does this? Hardly relevant to an article about getting some more useful life out of an old laptop.
  - devops99 2y ago
    You actually don't have to dig too hard to find places where hundreds if not thousands of people are doing exactly this.
    - terramoto 2y ago
      Still, hardly relevant to an article about getting some more useful life out of an old laptop. Its like saying, not good enough for video editing 8k.
      - devops99 2y ago
        In response to the comment further above (so not just the article), outbound network path management is not uncommon. However we often see it presumed to be uncommon by those who haven't thought of it, or have thought of it but the ability to do it is out of their reach. Qubes makes outbound network path management easy enough but it's not too hard to do on Linux and FreeBSD, so it can also be done on machines with modest compute resources (which may or may not be subject to the machine being an older machine) as well.
morningsam 2y ago
>I grumpily ordered a replacement key for 15 euros. A single key for 15€?! I remember ordering one from an online shop specialized in replacement laptop keys at some point in the 2010s and it was like 2€ total. Browsing through similar shops now, it seems like the minimum is 5€ per key nowadays, but still a far cry from 15€. >After spending more than 100 euros on plastic keys, which would soon break again, I calculated that my keyboard had 90 keys and that replacing them all just once would cost me 1,350 euros. Someone who breaks keys this often could just buy the whole keyboard assembly FRU for ~30-50€ and take spare keys out of that, assuming it's not always the same ones that break.
- mikepurvis 2y ago
  Even if it is, most of the keys are interchangeable. Your fingers don’t care that the M key has an N on it.
  - mbreese 2y ago
    With my mechanical keyboard, I have had a tendency to break a few (specific) keys. I got around it by 3D printing a few blank keys. So long as I know where the N and M keys are, that's all that matters :)
    - idiotsecant 2y ago
      How are you people breaking so many keys?!
      - jessekv 2y ago
        Maybe they learned to type on a mechanical typewriter...
        mbreese 2y ago
        For me, you’re not far off… it was an electric typewriter. So, the force I applied wasn’t directly linked to the force of hitting the paper, but it was … ahem … robust. Between that, the IBM Model M clone we had on the PC, or the membrane keyboard in our Atari 400, my early muscle memory might be skewed. Now though, we’re talking mainly laptop keyboards. My desk keyboard is a low profile keyboard with pretty thin keys (Keytron K2). If you hit them at the right angle, there’s not much plastic there to absorb the shock.
Joeboy 2y ago
I presume, with Windows 10 support ending this year, there's going to be a glut of used laptops.
- mikepurvis 2y ago
  This will be an interesting one to observe; will Canonical and others be able to capitalize on the Microsoft FUD around secure boot to convert users? Alternatively, can the community come up with some interesting uses for all the machines?
  - binkHN 2y ago
    > Alternatively, can the community come up with some interesting uses for all the machines? Google has targeted this model with ChromeOS Flex.
  - mossTechnician 2y ago
    One common suggestion I've seen: convert your old laptop into a server.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    No, this has become a meme of the Year of Desktop Linux. Everytime Microsoft does something that apparently pisses off people, we get tons of suggestions that now everyone is finally going to migrate in droves into GNU/Linux, and then nothing happens. Meanwhile the only Linux based devices that are actually successful among normies, are those that hide the fact there is the Linux kernel running underneath, expose no CLI, and have everything done in basic graphical workflows without any FOSS religion. Chromebooks, Android, DVD and BluRay players, TV setup boxes, SmartTVs,....
- drillsteps5 2y ago
  I thought so too, but it turns out there's a variety of ways to circumvent MS's hardware gatekeeping, such as CPU requirement (see: Tyny11 see: Rufus). At least at this time, Windows 11 is not that much heavier/resource-needy than Windows 10. There's a small but non-negligible number of people running Win11 on things like Thinkpad x250 or T450 (Inter 5th gen CPU), for example. The regular Joe Schmoe prob won't be able to do that, but he's not likely to use 2015 laptop in 2024 to begin with...
nottorp 2y ago
That's all fine when you use the laptop as a typewriter. I keep around a 2010 laptop that only has some text editing software on it for that exact reason. Unfortunately, with the advent of soldered ram and storage, this isn't feasible any more for more taxing uses. Most of the used devices will have the default ram and storage and you'll have to buy new so you can order the thing with enough resources.
- thegrim33 2y ago
  You can just be an informed consumer and not buy laptops with non-replaceable components. Don't give bad products money and incentive to keep making more like them.
  - BadHumans 2y ago
    Before Framework there wasn't a good option if you did anything more than office work. Even Framework's offerings aren't powerful enough in many ways.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    I don't think there is any middle ground left between thin and portable and all soldered and replaceable components and "transportable" instead of "portable". Gaming like laptops are a no no for me, sorry. And I doubt there's anything just slightly larger than a macbook pro but with upgradeable components.
    - cconcannon 2y ago
      Have you considered a Framework laptop? They have 13-inch and 16-inch models and are designed to be upgraded. https://frame.work/ https://frame.work/
      - scarface_74 2y ago
        Do they have 15 hour battery life, run cool and silent like my MacBook Air? The Framework laptop has way too many compromises https://www.theverge.com/24185827/framework-laptop-16-six-months-later-review https://www.theverge.com/24185827/framework-laptop-16-six-mo...
jmclnx 2y ago
My newest laptop is a Thinkpad W541 with Linux purchased used a few of years ago. That is just as good as any new laptop made today. The Old T430 I got from a relative who went to a MAC is also quite adequate for daily use. I have NetBSD on it and just finished upgrading to 10.1, so this was typed on that T430. So unless you are a heavy duty gamer or work on complex 3d graphics professionally, any recently used laptop will work just as well.
- strls 2y ago
  I had to replace a perfectly good T450s because of terrible performance when using external 4k monitors. I had it for 6 years, upgrading everything I could, and it could probably last for at least another 4 hears if not for the outdated CPU. Replaced with a ryzen elitebook because RAM is expandable to 64Gb, hoping it will last for up to 10 years. The difference in performance is staggering compared to the old core i5, well worth the cost of a base model.
- pixelpoet 2y ago
  As someone who works on complex 3D graphics, I'm utterly bewildered by people who buy overpriced, overheating laptops for this purpose (more recently for AI stuff), leave them plugged in 24/7, and then complain about performance, heat, bad keyboard layouts, noisy fans and poor value for money. Aaaaaanything but a nice efficient PC!
- grecy 2y ago
  > That is just as good as any new laptop made today. How’s the battery life? Going days without thinking about where my charger is can be really nice. What resolution does the screen run?
  - jmclnx 2y ago
    I accidentally tested the battery today, I forgot to plug it in :) So, just shy of 2 hours the level was at 5%, I usually run at Frequency 2200, the range is 1200 -- 2601. The lower the frequency, the longer the battery life. You can set on NetBSD freq. using: sudo /sbin/sysctl -w machdep.cpu.frequency.target=2200 I set it via an entry in root's cron on reboot. For resolution via the laptop screen is 1366x768, that is the highest on the Laptop monitor. As you can see it is a bit odd for some reason. On my external monitor I can go to 1920x1080 at about 60Hz. I think there were various models of the T430 and some had higher resolutions. Note: The battery is original and is the larger Thinkpad battery. You can find new batteries on the WEB. I always use the T430 plugged in.
bhouston 2y ago
Hmm... okay... Why the SD Card thing when you can just use the built-in OS cloud syncing capabilities in Windows or MacOS? Also you can take my M3 MacBook Air 15" from my cold dead hands. That laptop is ultra-lite, perfectly quiet, and ultra-fast. Wouldn't trade it for a 10 year old laptop.
- cf100clunk 2y ago
  Old article... 2020. Maybe cloud syncing wasn't suitable for that person back then, I'm guessing.
  - em-bee 2y ago
    cloud syncing a large disk (which today is at least 1TB or 2TB, but will grow in the future) won't ever be suitable.
    - bhouston 2y ago
      Why not? Here in Canada true fiber to the home is available in most urban centers at up to 8Gbps speeds. You only make small changes usually if you are a normal person so not problems at all. The only issue is cloud costs which are high for 2tbs in the cloud at this point.
      - em-bee 2y ago
        ok, true. let me rephase that. there will always be places and situations for which cloud syncing is not a feasible solution. as a frequent traveler and digital nomad i am quite frequently in such places and situations and therefore i prefer to maximize my recovery options by not relying on cloud sync. (i do have a self-hosted cloud backup, but it is not a replacement for other recovery options)
- zamadatix 2y ago
  Not that I concur with the author's choices but they discuss why they don't use cloud halfway through the SD card section. I'd be willing to bet your use cases and goals don't align with the author's. Which is fine, but remember the article is about why they did not why you must also be the same.
jancsika 2y ago
If it's someone local or friend-of-a-friend, fine. But for rando ebay/web: is there some part of the supply chain where thousands or tens of thousands of machines hit a single point where it's scalable for, say, a software rootkit to efficiently be put on them? E.g., I know universities typically buy a shit-ton of the same model. Where do they eventually unload them if they don't end up selling through their official used channel? Same for police/govt/etc. I don't think the economics of, say, rooting a bunch of machines in the hopes of hacking a big Bitcoin wallet need to even make sense. There just needs to be an easy point of access to many machines, so that a confidence man can sell some poor schmuck on the idea that if they buy a rootkit and install it on all of them they'll make millions in Bitcoins (or whatever).
- asdfasdf1 2y ago
  doubt a bitcoin millionaire is going to bother buying second hand hw. For anyone else, just format hdd & reinstall os
qingcharles 2y ago
You can get some really great laptop bargains on eBay if you dig around. In 2023 I managed to get a barely used 2017 17" HP for $80 that runs Windows 11 fantastically and even happily runs some smaller LLMs. A crappy laptop can be totally transformed by swapping out their spinning HDD for a super cheap SSD and adding another 8GB of cheap RAM.
parasti 2y ago
Off-topic, but I was far more intrigued by the fact that their server runs on solar power and may go offline. https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/power/ https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/power/
- cf100clunk 2y ago
  Thus, this enjoyable line at the bottom: ''The accessibility of this website depends on the weather in Barcelona, Spain''
devops99 2y ago
Flipping the HAP bit on the Intel ME/AMT on older laptops is less difficult, generally (not always). However, with more recent UEFI releases containing newer Intel ME/AMT payloads, the HAP bit is benign on these newer releases of Intel ME for all we know. There is a very dire need to have those with hardware hacking skills assist the larger freedom software community in "liberating" newer machines. Someone recently got Libreboot running on a ThinkPad T480 https://ezntek.com/posts/librebooting-the-thinkpad-t480-20241207t0933/
jll29 2y ago
Great article. I have had a similarly positive experience with older laptops, in particular ThinkPads (x230) and Latitudes (e7460). The older machines often also have much better keyboards than more recent laptops, IMHO. As the OP writes, swapping out HDD for SSD (1 usually prefer at least 1 TB) and maxing out RAM are affordable things that you won't regret.
- jerome-jh 2y ago
  On my side I prefer Dell Latitudes and Fujitsu Siemens, which only makes "professional" laptops. I agree with the keyboards, however really good keyboards have totally disappeared now. That said a used laptop is perfect for web browsing, office stuff, casual development and light gaming. When it dies you have no regrets. It is almost 20 years I have not bought a new laptop. Of course my kids have used laptops too. At some point they had Fujitsu Siemens with a Wacom stylus/digitizer. I do not think they still make those. They were rock solid and quite fun to use. I only buy new laptops for my wife. She is very careful with her stuff, they last ages. I bought her a new one recently only to offer her a better screen.
  - latentpot 2y ago
    Dell makes devices with mpp compatible touch screens. Cheap stylii, good pressure response
- Jgrubb 2y ago
  Unless it's a Mac ofc
- herbst 2y ago
  This. Used my T420 for years, got a T460 and was so disappointed about it's build quality that I now have a X1 of some generation which isn't much better but at least lighter for travel. All bought used, never spent more than maybe $250 and $200 for max RAM and nice SSD.
begueradj 2y ago
- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36646791 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36646791, 530 comments - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25486191 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25486191, 279 comments - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32674830 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32674830, 111 comments
jjkaczor 2y ago
... well... this is all good except... if you use Windows and want to upgrade to Windows 11... am currently fighting with a Lenovo W530 from 2013 - and nothing is working "well", even the recent 2024 Win 11 IoT Enterprise release build that can make TPM/etc optional via a Rufus-created USB stick. And then testing newer Linux distros is also not working with the nVidia K2000M discrete graphics system. Am thinking it may be time to give-up, harvest the RAM, the SSD's and the screen and recycle the rest of this one...
- Jolter 2y ago
  I can’t tell if you read the article. The idea is to not use resource demanding operating systems but stay on some lightweight alternative like a particular Linux distribution. So how to get Windows 11 running seems entirely off topic.
  - jjkaczor 2y ago
    Yes, I read the article - just venting - I would love to get a Linux or Haiku OS installed on this machine that is able to use the nVidia Quadro K2000M hardware and drive an external monitor configuration - but so far, nothing has worked. This is an older machine sure - and should run just about anything well - i7, 32gb RAM, 1TB SSD. Seems a shame to just junk it because nothing can handle the discrete graphics card except Windows.
sourraspberry 2y ago
Spent like $2000 NZD on a new XPS 13 to replace my old XPS 13 from ~2017 - a device I loved. The new one was a piece of hot garbage. Overheat and throttled playing League of Legends - a game that has ran adequately on every other piece of hardware I've owned since 2011? I couldn't understand how a 2022 device would run so much worse than 2017 device and assumed it was faulty. Returned, given a replacement, same issue. It is quite literally not built to hand the heat from the Intel chip doing very minimal stuff. I refuse to use a laptop that sounds like a jet engine when Microsoft is doing basic background stuff. Returned and ended up buying a used 15 inch T-type Thinkpad with an AMD chip recommended by Reddit for $500 NZD. Runs great, cool, and quiet. It's much bigger and bulkier that the Dell but I don't mind. Note: Not a Thinkpad fanboy, work has given me an X1 Carbon that I dislike for the same reasons I didn't like the new XPS 13 - it's useable, but it's still much hotter and louder than I would like.
- Daniel_sk 2y ago
  That brings back memories of me using an XPS 13. In theory it was a great notebook, but in real world it has lots of annoying issues. I then bough a Macbook and never looked back.
econ 2y ago
My imagination produced a product with the worse possible build quality but with various tiers of replacement parts. Say you buy the laptop with a crude 3d printed case and when new money comes in you buy the titanium case. Spending the weekend swapping the parts over is a bonus. It should be modular but extra crappy. 2 GB memory is a lot. Ideally go full ship of theseus.
CT4u8798 2y ago
I never buy new laptops, and I always put linux on the ones I do buy. My only issues have been running the more resource intensive applications I needed to run as a student, and the fact that the university expects you to be running windows. But as an everyday machine a used/refurbished laptop is the way to go.
- scarface_74 2y ago
  Aren’t you kind of burying the lede? You had a laptop that didn’t meet your needs?
  - CT4u8798 2y ago
    No the laptops met my needs perfectly. They were cheap, and they ran fully up to date operating systems and the latest software. The issues with the university are issues with the university.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      [flagged]
vouaobrasil 2y ago
I gladly buy lots of used things but laptops aren't one of them. The reason is that, at least from my experience, laptops only last between 5-8 years before they become more trouble than they are worth (either they become too slow as was the case with my previous Macbook or they stop working for some unknown reason, or the battery life sucks). I've also noticed laptops get beat up easily -- the vast majority of used Macbooks have dings. What I do instead is buy a moderately powerful new one and just use it until it dies -- I don't upgrade before the laptop is truly dead.
- hagbard_c 2y ago
  Hm, odd that, the newest laptop I have here is from 2016 and with that just past your threshold. It works just fine, performance is no problem, the battery holds for around 5-6 hours. Maybe it helps to say I a) don't buy Apple products and b) only use Linux? Nearly all my laptops are Thinkpads, all of them run Debian in some form or other. From the ancient (T23) through the old (T42p) to the relatively modern (P50), all of them work for their intended purposes. They are built to last, if something breaks it is easy to fix but things rarely break. The batteries are easily replaceable, the same goes for the keyboards. In other words it is more than possible to use laptops beyond those 8 years as long as you buy the right ones. Performance is fine as long as you run the right software, i.e. not software made by a hardware vendor who depends on a regular replacement cycle.
  - vouaobrasil 2y ago
    Well, I haven't always bought Apple Products. My first laptop was a Toshiba and it lasted five years. Then I bought a used Thinkpad, I can't remember the model now but it only lasted about three years. My next computer was a thinkpad, I think a T203 or something like that, and it died after five years also (just stopped booting). I also installed Linux on them too and the battery life was not great either. I could be an outlier but I've not had good experience with Thinkpads even though I liked them. My older Macbook actually lasted the longest.
    - hagbard_c 2y ago
josephcsible 2y ago
I'd have four concerns with such an old laptop: 1. Lack of USB-C ports means I wouldn't be able to safely use any USB-C only peripherals (since the USB spec explicitly bans adapters in that direction) 2. Lack of security updates for firmware, microcode, etc. 3. Hard to find replacement batteries from reputable sources 4. The CPU and memory requirements of software are steadily increasing
- em-bee 2y ago
  1. which devices are those? USB-C is a type of plug. it does not define the USB standard that runs on it. so if i understand that correctly, there can't be a USB-C only device. USB4 is defined to run only on USB-C, but it is also defined to be backwards compatible to at least USB3.x. the spec forbids certain legacy adapters, but only because it would allow for to many invalid and potentially unsafe cable connections. the same connection can be made to work with a direct cable that allows the connection of a USB-C device to a legacy port. and even a 10 year old laptop should at least support USB3.0. 2+3. depends on the specific devices. 4. 10-15 years ago maybe that was still true. but the power and speed of devices no longer increases at the same rate. it has slowed down to the point that a 6 year old laptop performs just as well for my daily tasks as a 2 year old one and i run the same OS on both. the difference is only noticeable for modern games and some CPU/GPU intensive tasks. i also remember the same experience with even older laptops (i don't have one here right now, so i can't compare directly). what made the older laptops slower/less powerful was less RAM.
  - josephcsible 2y ago
    For point 1, consider a flash drive with only a USB-C connector on it. The kind of adapter that you'd need to plug that into a laptop with only USB-A ports is exactly the kind that the spec forbids.
    - WhyNotHugo 2y ago
      I have a couple of these adapters (that came with different products), and have never had issues. Is there some _practical_ issue with them?
mystified5016 2y ago
Every new laptop I've touched in the last few years just makes me more sure of my decision to ride out this thinkpad from 2013 until the poor quad core can't keep up with the web. It's had no failures at all in its life apart from the battery. My two year old work laptop went in the trash after its USB ports all died. This thing has been around the planet twice and it just keeps going.
tgma 2y ago
[flagged]
- unicornporn 2y ago
  > the author is quoting prices in Euros, which is pretty much synonymous with "extreme poverty" I mentioned before :) Care to elaborate? > Especially ironic this article is from 2020 when M1 was launched and now laptops, both Qualcomm and Apple ones, are leaps and bounds better than before. Something tells me you haven't quite grasped the blog post or what LOW←TECH MAGAZINE is about. https://permacomputing.net https://permacomputing.net
  - tgma 2y ago
    > Care to elaborate? Europe is increasingly a basket case. > what LOW←TECH MAGAZINE is about Yea, I did sense some hints of political ideals, but did not know that it is explicitly part of some movement. Thanks for elaborating.
    - herbst 2y ago
      Have you been to Europe?
      - tgma 2y ago
        Yes, I have [but I've not been to the border :-)]. Lack of air conditioning and low respect for tech employee (feudal style treatment of owner/worker) compared to Silicon Valley was obvious (although they are propagandized to think they have "better working conditions" due to more mandated vacation days and not being easily fired, but the order of magnitude lower salary is almost never brought up and if you bring up 500k salaries being a routine thing for upper-middle-range of a run-of-the-mill Senior SWE, they think you are exaggerating; to cope, immediately the subject of socialized health care comes up!) But good historic landmarks, for sure.
        herbst 2y ago
Uw5ssYPc 2y ago
This idiot first buys several laptops for 5000 Euro, then he switches to garbage 15-years old 50 Euro ones. From one extreme to another. And his website promotes anti-humanism propaganda, like turning off running water in people's homes for "sustainability". What a joke.
LittleTimothy 2y ago
I was surprised at how little the author mentioned their actual experience using the laptop. Some things haven't changed and that's fine. I'm sure you can do word processing on that machine, but there are areas where you can't control the fact the rest of the world has moved on. How does the average website appear? Can you browse youtube? Can you actually log on to internet banking? Do you have to disable scripting on websites in general? How bad is the screen? What's the wifi speed like? Also, given that this is the author's work laptop, what's the economic justification for not investing in the primary tool you use for work?
- sangnoir 2y ago
  > Also, given that this is the author's work laptop, what's the economic justification for not investing in the primary tool you use for work? Shouldn't the burden of proof be on the obverse - Why should one buy a new laptop when an old one will do? Your framing sounds to me like a post-hoc justification for consumerism. Why not "invest" in getting the absolute best in the primary means of transportation, or couch, TV or random product category?
  - LittleTimothy 2y ago
    Come on now, even the author is pretty clear they're making compromises. Whether that's slower internet speed, lower quality display, worse battery or inability to run modern apps/web apps. There are a lot of ways in which this is making a trade off to priortize cost vs productivity. Sure, you can say all the ways in which the old laptop is inferior are unimportant, but I would atleast like to see some serious consideration of it.
    - sangnoir 2y ago
      I have my doubts you'd take any such arguments seriously, if you are set on the idea that productivity universally requires a 14-hour battery and a 2.5k screen. I was traveling recently and got a lot done on an 8-year old tablet. I was very productive, I suspect the combination of being offline (no 5G modem), no random notifications, just me, the terminal and a Bluetooth keyboard. The compact size & weight, and not having to worry about losing or having an expensive iLaptop stolen made for a worthwhile trade-off. Any productivity gains would have been marginal at best, and not worth the cost.
bencarlos 2y ago
[flagged]
Havoc 2y ago
Does kinda feel like laptops and desktops are experiencing the same effect as the phones. The specs are improving, but the experience is not improving in lockstep with it. Browsing & similar normal usage cases just doesn't need it.
cleverpatrick 2y ago
Maybe it's just me, but I find that older hardware will sometimes get "sticky" after just sitting around for awhile. I've had it happen to mice, and to the palm rests on my old Dell laptop. The best explanation I've had for this is that the rubber components degrade over time. But it makes me leery of buying older hardware because of that.
IYasha 2y ago
> New laptops may be more energy-efficient per computational power, but these gains are offset by more computational power. Should I rephrase: computers are getting ridiculously powerful, but JavaScript cancels out everything? Or just low-quality software in general. PS: I'm using 2014 laptop and only wish WWW wasn't such heavy garbage.

132 points by mgd 2y ago

geek_at 2y ago

Use refurbed when possible. But obviously the "don't buy new" incentive only scales to a hard limit

RajT88 2y ago
I picked up a few years ago a refurb Dell for a little over 200 USD (with shipping 215). It is one of those big beasts with a number pad and decent GPU. I use it as a gaming PC. I was just last night playing Dead Island Riptide with default settings. It is probably the best computer purchase I have ever made. My advice: keep an eye out for Dell refurb deals on slickdeals.com. They occasionally have half-off deals, which is what I scored.

robin_reala 2y ago

(2020)

cf100clunk 2y ago
Yep, saw that too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36646791 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36646791 374 points, 530 comments
- ksec 2y ago
  LOL I posted this in the previous thread >I am still on my MacBook Pro 2015 because of the Keyboard and Trackpad. So in about 2 years time this will be 10 years of usage. I dont intend to replace it any time soon. For browsing it is fast enough. And if you look at the Louis Rossman Channels it seems newer MBP just aren't built the same. It may be worth looking at it again I 2025. How little ( or big ) the past 10 years of Laptop has changed. May be time to look for a new MacBook especially when all of them now has 16GB memory by default.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    Jumping from x86 to arm may be worth it just because of how little power it needs. Perhaps you'd like a laptop where the fan never [*] turns on enough to be audible and with 20 hours battery life? They fixed the keyboard and the trackpad has been good even in the emoji keyboard models. Do get one with 32 Gb ram if you can. You never know what you'll want to use it for next year. [*] Of course, if you compile/run renders etc you may get to hear the fan and it won't last 20 hours.
    - layer8 2y ago
      The Lunar Lake laptops have reduced the power efficiency gap by a lot.
      - nottorp 2y ago
        CPU wise or whole system wise? You can play some pretty taxing x86 3d games on my M3 pro laptops, in spite of the two layers of emulation. Those Lunar Lake laptops would need a GPU for that wouldn't they? Have they in the Wintel world figured out why Apple trackpads can actually act like a mouse replacement yet?
        7speter 2y ago
        The Lunar Lake SoC has a few (4 iirc) Battlemage GPU cores.
        layer8 2y ago
        Whole-system wise (they roughly doubled the battery life over the previous generation [0]), and the Intel SoCs have reasonably powerful integrated GPUs. I’m not a laptop user myself and don’t consider even Apple trackpads (I actually own one of their desktop trackpads) anywhere close to a viable mouse replacement, so no further comment on that. [0] e.g. https://www.extremetech.com/computing/first-intel-lunar-lake-laptop-test-shows-almost-24-hour-battery-life https://www.extremetech.com/computing/first-intel-lunar-lake...
- deleted 2y ago
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johnea 2y ago

> On the contrary, the only thing a consumer can do to improve their laptop’s ecological and economic sustainability is to use it for as long as possible. This is true for everything, not just laptops. Any purchasing that occurrs on a fashion cycle is largly a rip off...

jll29 2y ago
I believe most people do not WANT a new device, as getting used to new ways and new quirks is a unproductive distraction. For instance, I would pay a lot to get my BlackBerry back, screw all that app bloarware nonsense. Fast email, phone, a good keyboard and long battery life, that is a winning combination, from a user's perspective. (And I actually prefer devices with no camera or microphone in it, for security reasons.)
bluGill 2y ago
That depends on what you do. a newer cpu is often enough more efficent per unit of work as to pay for itself. I first calculated this when we were arguing if the price of a 80486 was worth it over the cheaper 80386 and if you kept it busy 24x7 you would pay for the new computer in a year from your electric bill (more in summer when you need ac)
- Jolter 2y ago
  The idea of the article is to not run the newer, more demanding software which drives the replacement cycle. Instead install a lightweight Linux or similar and don’t use all those extra CPU cycles.
  - bluGill 2y ago
    But even then wht if you ran the lite linux on the newest. Would the increased efficiency pay for it?

rustcleaner 2y ago

Maybe for OpenBSD. These days I am parano... savvy and prudent enough to not trust security swiss-cheese software bare metal, and so I box it all up into qubes with Qubes OS. For Qubes, it's always best to max out RAM, core count, and GPU count (AI). Libreboot laptops don't cut it if you want to run seven isolated chat/social profiles on seven separate VPN/Tor connections while also running LM Studio in an offline GPU-passed qube, to obfuscate cross-profile lexical correlations.

SoftTalker 2y ago
> seven isolated chat/social profiles on seven separate VPN/Tor connections Bravo for you, but surely you realize that almost nobody does this? Hardly relevant to an article about getting some more useful life out of an old laptop.
- devops99 2y ago
  You actually don't have to dig too hard to find places where hundreds if not thousands of people are doing exactly this.
  - terramoto 2y ago
    Still, hardly relevant to an article about getting some more useful life out of an old laptop. Its like saying, not good enough for video editing 8k.
    - devops99 2y ago
      In response to the comment further above (so not just the article), outbound network path management is not uncommon. However we often see it presumed to be uncommon by those who haven't thought of it, or have thought of it but the ability to do it is out of their reach. Qubes makes outbound network path management easy enough but it's not too hard to do on Linux and FreeBSD, so it can also be done on machines with modest compute resources (which may or may not be subject to the machine being an older machine) as well.

morningsam 2y ago

>I grumpily ordered a replacement key for 15 euros. A single key for 15€?! I remember ordering one from an online shop specialized in replacement laptop keys at some point in the 2010s and it was like 2€ total. Browsing through similar shops now, it seems like the minimum is 5€ per key nowadays, but still a far cry from 15€. >After spending more than 100 euros on plastic keys, which would soon break again, I calculated that my keyboard had 90 keys and that replacing them all just once would cost me 1,350 euros. Someone who breaks keys this often could just buy the whole keyboard assembly FRU for ~30-50€ and take spare keys out of that, assuming it's not always the same ones that break.

mikepurvis 2y ago
Even if it is, most of the keys are interchangeable. Your fingers don’t care that the M key has an N on it.
- mbreese 2y ago
  With my mechanical keyboard, I have had a tendency to break a few (specific) keys. I got around it by 3D printing a few blank keys. So long as I know where the N and M keys are, that's all that matters :)
  - idiotsecant 2y ago
    How are you people breaking so many keys?!
    - jessekv 2y ago
      Maybe they learned to type on a mechanical typewriter...
      - mbreese 2y ago
        For me, you’re not far off… it was an electric typewriter. So, the force I applied wasn’t directly linked to the force of hitting the paper, but it was … ahem … robust. Between that, the IBM Model M clone we had on the PC, or the membrane keyboard in our Atari 400, my early muscle memory might be skewed. Now though, we’re talking mainly laptop keyboards. My desk keyboard is a low profile keyboard with pretty thin keys (Keytron K2). If you hit them at the right angle, there’s not much plastic there to absorb the shock.

Joeboy 2y ago

I presume, with Windows 10 support ending this year, there's going to be a glut of used laptops.

mikepurvis 2y ago
This will be an interesting one to observe; will Canonical and others be able to capitalize on the Microsoft FUD around secure boot to convert users? Alternatively, can the community come up with some interesting uses for all the machines?
- binkHN 2y ago
  > Alternatively, can the community come up with some interesting uses for all the machines? Google has targeted this model with ChromeOS Flex.
- mossTechnician 2y ago
  One common suggestion I've seen: convert your old laptop into a server.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  No, this has become a meme of the Year of Desktop Linux. Everytime Microsoft does something that apparently pisses off people, we get tons of suggestions that now everyone is finally going to migrate in droves into GNU/Linux, and then nothing happens. Meanwhile the only Linux based devices that are actually successful among normies, are those that hide the fact there is the Linux kernel running underneath, expose no CLI, and have everything done in basic graphical workflows without any FOSS religion. Chromebooks, Android, DVD and BluRay players, TV setup boxes, SmartTVs,....
drillsteps5 2y ago
I thought so too, but it turns out there's a variety of ways to circumvent MS's hardware gatekeeping, such as CPU requirement (see: Tyny11 see: Rufus). At least at this time, Windows 11 is not that much heavier/resource-needy than Windows 10. There's a small but non-negligible number of people running Win11 on things like Thinkpad x250 or T450 (Inter 5th gen CPU), for example. The regular Joe Schmoe prob won't be able to do that, but he's not likely to use 2015 laptop in 2024 to begin with...

nottorp 2y ago

That's all fine when you use the laptop as a typewriter. I keep around a 2010 laptop that only has some text editing software on it for that exact reason. Unfortunately, with the advent of soldered ram and storage, this isn't feasible any more for more taxing uses. Most of the used devices will have the default ram and storage and you'll have to buy new so you can order the thing with enough resources.

thegrim33 2y ago
You can just be an informed consumer and not buy laptops with non-replaceable components. Don't give bad products money and incentive to keep making more like them.
- BadHumans 2y ago
  Before Framework there wasn't a good option if you did anything more than office work. Even Framework's offerings aren't powerful enough in many ways.
- nottorp 2y ago
  I don't think there is any middle ground left between thin and portable and all soldered and replaceable components and "transportable" instead of "portable". Gaming like laptops are a no no for me, sorry. And I doubt there's anything just slightly larger than a macbook pro but with upgradeable components.
  - cconcannon 2y ago
    Have you considered a Framework laptop? They have 13-inch and 16-inch models and are designed to be upgraded. https://frame.work/ https://frame.work/
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      Do they have 15 hour battery life, run cool and silent like my MacBook Air? The Framework laptop has way too many compromises https://www.theverge.com/24185827/framework-laptop-16-six-months-later-review https://www.theverge.com/24185827/framework-laptop-16-six-mo...

jmclnx 2y ago

My newest laptop is a Thinkpad W541 with Linux purchased used a few of years ago. That is just as good as any new laptop made today. The Old T430 I got from a relative who went to a MAC is also quite adequate for daily use. I have NetBSD on it and just finished upgrading to 10.1, so this was typed on that T430. So unless you are a heavy duty gamer or work on complex 3d graphics professionally, any recently used laptop will work just as well.

strls 2y ago
I had to replace a perfectly good T450s because of terrible performance when using external 4k monitors. I had it for 6 years, upgrading everything I could, and it could probably last for at least another 4 hears if not for the outdated CPU. Replaced with a ryzen elitebook because RAM is expandable to 64Gb, hoping it will last for up to 10 years. The difference in performance is staggering compared to the old core i5, well worth the cost of a base model.
pixelpoet 2y ago
As someone who works on complex 3D graphics, I'm utterly bewildered by people who buy overpriced, overheating laptops for this purpose (more recently for AI stuff), leave them plugged in 24/7, and then complain about performance, heat, bad keyboard layouts, noisy fans and poor value for money. Aaaaaanything but a nice efficient PC!
grecy 2y ago
> That is just as good as any new laptop made today. How’s the battery life? Going days without thinking about where my charger is can be really nice. What resolution does the screen run?
- jmclnx 2y ago
  I accidentally tested the battery today, I forgot to plug it in :) So, just shy of 2 hours the level was at 5%, I usually run at Frequency 2200, the range is 1200 -- 2601. The lower the frequency, the longer the battery life. You can set on NetBSD freq. using: sudo /sbin/sysctl -w machdep.cpu.frequency.target=2200 I set it via an entry in root's cron on reboot. For resolution via the laptop screen is 1366x768, that is the highest on the Laptop monitor. As you can see it is a bit odd for some reason. On my external monitor I can go to 1920x1080 at about 60Hz. I think there were various models of the T430 and some had higher resolutions. Note: The battery is original and is the larger Thinkpad battery. You can find new batteries on the WEB. I always use the T430 plugged in.

bhouston 2y ago

Hmm... okay... Why the SD Card thing when you can just use the built-in OS cloud syncing capabilities in Windows or MacOS? Also you can take my M3 MacBook Air 15" from my cold dead hands. That laptop is ultra-lite, perfectly quiet, and ultra-fast. Wouldn't trade it for a 10 year old laptop.

cf100clunk 2y ago
Old article... 2020. Maybe cloud syncing wasn't suitable for that person back then, I'm guessing.
- em-bee 2y ago
  cloud syncing a large disk (which today is at least 1TB or 2TB, but will grow in the future) won't ever be suitable.
  - bhouston 2y ago
    Why not? Here in Canada true fiber to the home is available in most urban centers at up to 8Gbps speeds. You only make small changes usually if you are a normal person so not problems at all. The only issue is cloud costs which are high for 2tbs in the cloud at this point.
    - em-bee 2y ago
      ok, true. let me rephase that. there will always be places and situations for which cloud syncing is not a feasible solution. as a frequent traveler and digital nomad i am quite frequently in such places and situations and therefore i prefer to maximize my recovery options by not relying on cloud sync. (i do have a self-hosted cloud backup, but it is not a replacement for other recovery options)
zamadatix 2y ago
Not that I concur with the author's choices but they discuss why they don't use cloud halfway through the SD card section. I'd be willing to bet your use cases and goals don't align with the author's. Which is fine, but remember the article is about why they did not why you must also be the same.

jancsika 2y ago

If it's someone local or friend-of-a-friend, fine. But for rando ebay/web: is there some part of the supply chain where thousands or tens of thousands of machines hit a single point where it's scalable for, say, a software rootkit to efficiently be put on them? E.g., I know universities typically buy a shit-ton of the same model. Where do they eventually unload them if they don't end up selling through their official used channel? Same for police/govt/etc. I don't think the economics of, say, rooting a bunch of machines in the hopes of hacking a big Bitcoin wallet need to even make sense. There just needs to be an easy point of access to many machines, so that a confidence man can sell some poor schmuck on the idea that if they buy a rootkit and install it on all of them they'll make millions in Bitcoins (or whatever).

asdfasdf1 2y ago
doubt a bitcoin millionaire is going to bother buying second hand hw. For anyone else, just format hdd & reinstall os

qingcharles 2y ago

You can get some really great laptop bargains on eBay if you dig around. In 2023 I managed to get a barely used 2017 17" HP for $80 that runs Windows 11 fantastically and even happily runs some smaller LLMs. A crappy laptop can be totally transformed by swapping out their spinning HDD for a super cheap SSD and adding another 8GB of cheap RAM.

parasti 2y ago

Off-topic, but I was far more intrigued by the fact that their server runs on solar power and may go offline. https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/power/ https://solar.lowtechmagazine.com/power/

cf100clunk 2y ago
Thus, this enjoyable line at the bottom: ''The accessibility of this website depends on the weather in Barcelona, Spain''

devops99 2y ago

Flipping the HAP bit on the Intel ME/AMT on older laptops is less difficult, generally (not always). However, with more recent UEFI releases containing newer Intel ME/AMT payloads, the HAP bit is benign on these newer releases of Intel ME for all we know. There is a very dire need to have those with hardware hacking skills assist the larger freedom software community in "liberating" newer machines. Someone recently got Libreboot running on a ThinkPad T480 https://ezntek.com/posts/librebooting-the-thinkpad-t480-20241207t0933/

jll29 2y ago

Great article. I have had a similarly positive experience with older laptops, in particular ThinkPads (x230) and Latitudes (e7460). The older machines often also have much better keyboards than more recent laptops, IMHO. As the OP writes, swapping out HDD for SSD (1 usually prefer at least 1 TB) and maxing out RAM are affordable things that you won't regret.

jerome-jh 2y ago
On my side I prefer Dell Latitudes and Fujitsu Siemens, which only makes "professional" laptops. I agree with the keyboards, however really good keyboards have totally disappeared now. That said a used laptop is perfect for web browsing, office stuff, casual development and light gaming. When it dies you have no regrets. It is almost 20 years I have not bought a new laptop. Of course my kids have used laptops too. At some point they had Fujitsu Siemens with a Wacom stylus/digitizer. I do not think they still make those. They were rock solid and quite fun to use. I only buy new laptops for my wife. She is very careful with her stuff, they last ages. I bought her a new one recently only to offer her a better screen.
- latentpot 2y ago
  Dell makes devices with mpp compatible touch screens. Cheap stylii, good pressure response
Jgrubb 2y ago
Unless it's a Mac ofc
herbst 2y ago
This. Used my T420 for years, got a T460 and was so disappointed about it's build quality that I now have a X1 of some generation which isn't much better but at least lighter for travel. All bought used, never spent more than maybe $250 and $200 for max RAM and nice SSD.

begueradj 2y ago

- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36646791 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36646791, 530 comments - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25486191 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25486191, 279 comments - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32674830 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32674830, 111 comments

jjkaczor 2y ago

... well... this is all good except... if you use Windows and want to upgrade to Windows 11... am currently fighting with a Lenovo W530 from 2013 - and nothing is working "well", even the recent 2024 Win 11 IoT Enterprise release build that can make TPM/etc optional via a Rufus-created USB stick. And then testing newer Linux distros is also not working with the nVidia K2000M discrete graphics system. Am thinking it may be time to give-up, harvest the RAM, the SSD's and the screen and recycle the rest of this one...

Jolter 2y ago
I can’t tell if you read the article. The idea is to not use resource demanding operating systems but stay on some lightweight alternative like a particular Linux distribution. So how to get Windows 11 running seems entirely off topic.
- jjkaczor 2y ago
  Yes, I read the article - just venting - I would love to get a Linux or Haiku OS installed on this machine that is able to use the nVidia Quadro K2000M hardware and drive an external monitor configuration - but so far, nothing has worked. This is an older machine sure - and should run just about anything well - i7, 32gb RAM, 1TB SSD. Seems a shame to just junk it because nothing can handle the discrete graphics card except Windows.

sourraspberry 2y ago

Spent like $2000 NZD on a new XPS 13 to replace my old XPS 13 from ~2017 - a device I loved. The new one was a piece of hot garbage. Overheat and throttled playing League of Legends - a game that has ran adequately on every other piece of hardware I've owned since 2011? I couldn't understand how a 2022 device would run so much worse than 2017 device and assumed it was faulty. Returned, given a replacement, same issue. It is quite literally not built to hand the heat from the Intel chip doing very minimal stuff. I refuse to use a laptop that sounds like a jet engine when Microsoft is doing basic background stuff. Returned and ended up buying a used 15 inch T-type Thinkpad with an AMD chip recommended by Reddit for $500 NZD. Runs great, cool, and quiet. It's much bigger and bulkier that the Dell but I don't mind. Note: Not a Thinkpad fanboy, work has given me an X1 Carbon that I dislike for the same reasons I didn't like the new XPS 13 - it's useable, but it's still much hotter and louder than I would like.

Daniel_sk 2y ago
That brings back memories of me using an XPS 13. In theory it was a great notebook, but in real world it has lots of annoying issues. I then bough a Macbook and never looked back.

econ 2y ago

My imagination produced a product with the worse possible build quality but with various tiers of replacement parts. Say you buy the laptop with a crude 3d printed case and when new money comes in you buy the titanium case. Spending the weekend swapping the parts over is a bonus. It should be modular but extra crappy. 2 GB memory is a lot. Ideally go full ship of theseus.

CT4u8798 2y ago

I never buy new laptops, and I always put linux on the ones I do buy. My only issues have been running the more resource intensive applications I needed to run as a student, and the fact that the university expects you to be running windows. But as an everyday machine a used/refurbished laptop is the way to go.

scarface_74 2y ago
Aren’t you kind of burying the lede? You had a laptop that didn’t meet your needs?
- CT4u8798 2y ago
  No the laptops met my needs perfectly. They were cheap, and they ran fully up to date operating systems and the latest software. The issues with the university are issues with the university.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    [flagged]

vouaobrasil 2y ago

I gladly buy lots of used things but laptops aren't one of them. The reason is that, at least from my experience, laptops only last between 5-8 years before they become more trouble than they are worth (either they become too slow as was the case with my previous Macbook or they stop working for some unknown reason, or the battery life sucks). I've also noticed laptops get beat up easily -- the vast majority of used Macbooks have dings. What I do instead is buy a moderately powerful new one and just use it until it dies -- I don't upgrade before the laptop is truly dead.

hagbard_c 2y ago
Hm, odd that, the newest laptop I have here is from 2016 and with that just past your threshold. It works just fine, performance is no problem, the battery holds for around 5-6 hours. Maybe it helps to say I a) don't buy Apple products and b) only use Linux? Nearly all my laptops are Thinkpads, all of them run Debian in some form or other. From the ancient (T23) through the old (T42p) to the relatively modern (P50), all of them work for their intended purposes. They are built to last, if something breaks it is easy to fix but things rarely break. The batteries are easily replaceable, the same goes for the keyboards. In other words it is more than possible to use laptops beyond those 8 years as long as you buy the right ones. Performance is fine as long as you run the right software, i.e. not software made by a hardware vendor who depends on a regular replacement cycle.
- vouaobrasil 2y ago
  Well, I haven't always bought Apple Products. My first laptop was a Toshiba and it lasted five years. Then I bought a used Thinkpad, I can't remember the model now but it only lasted about three years. My next computer was a thinkpad, I think a T203 or something like that, and it died after five years also (just stopped booting). I also installed Linux on them too and the battery life was not great either. I could be an outlier but I've not had good experience with Thinkpads even though I liked them. My older Macbook actually lasted the longest.
  - hagbard_c 2y ago

josephcsible 2y ago

I'd have four concerns with such an old laptop: 1. Lack of USB-C ports means I wouldn't be able to safely use any USB-C only peripherals (since the USB spec explicitly bans adapters in that direction) 2. Lack of security updates for firmware, microcode, etc. 3. Hard to find replacement batteries from reputable sources 4. The CPU and memory requirements of software are steadily increasing

em-bee 2y ago
1. which devices are those? USB-C is a type of plug. it does not define the USB standard that runs on it. so if i understand that correctly, there can't be a USB-C only device. USB4 is defined to run only on USB-C, but it is also defined to be backwards compatible to at least USB3.x. the spec forbids certain legacy adapters, but only because it would allow for to many invalid and potentially unsafe cable connections. the same connection can be made to work with a direct cable that allows the connection of a USB-C device to a legacy port. and even a 10 year old laptop should at least support USB3.0. 2+3. depends on the specific devices. 4. 10-15 years ago maybe that was still true. but the power and speed of devices no longer increases at the same rate. it has slowed down to the point that a 6 year old laptop performs just as well for my daily tasks as a 2 year old one and i run the same OS on both. the difference is only noticeable for modern games and some CPU/GPU intensive tasks. i also remember the same experience with even older laptops (i don't have one here right now, so i can't compare directly). what made the older laptops slower/less powerful was less RAM.
- josephcsible 2y ago
  For point 1, consider a flash drive with only a USB-C connector on it. The kind of adapter that you'd need to plug that into a laptop with only USB-A ports is exactly the kind that the spec forbids.
  - WhyNotHugo 2y ago
    I have a couple of these adapters (that came with different products), and have never had issues. Is there some _practical_ issue with them?

mystified5016 2y ago

Every new laptop I've touched in the last few years just makes me more sure of my decision to ride out this thinkpad from 2013 until the poor quad core can't keep up with the web. It's had no failures at all in its life apart from the battery. My two year old work laptop went in the trash after its USB ports all died. This thing has been around the planet twice and it just keeps going.

tgma 2y ago

[flagged]

unicornporn 2y ago
> the author is quoting prices in Euros, which is pretty much synonymous with "extreme poverty" I mentioned before :) Care to elaborate? > Especially ironic this article is from 2020 when M1 was launched and now laptops, both Qualcomm and Apple ones, are leaps and bounds better than before. Something tells me you haven't quite grasped the blog post or what LOW←TECH MAGAZINE is about. https://permacomputing.net https://permacomputing.net
- tgma 2y ago
  > Care to elaborate? Europe is increasingly a basket case. > what LOW←TECH MAGAZINE is about Yea, I did sense some hints of political ideals, but did not know that it is explicitly part of some movement. Thanks for elaborating.
  - herbst 2y ago
    Have you been to Europe?
    - tgma 2y ago
      Yes, I have [but I've not been to the border :-)]. Lack of air conditioning and low respect for tech employee (feudal style treatment of owner/worker) compared to Silicon Valley was obvious (although they are propagandized to think they have "better working conditions" due to more mandated vacation days and not being easily fired, but the order of magnitude lower salary is almost never brought up and if you bring up 500k salaries being a routine thing for upper-middle-range of a run-of-the-mill Senior SWE, they think you are exaggerating; to cope, immediately the subject of socialized health care comes up!) But good historic landmarks, for sure.
      - herbst 2y ago

Uw5ssYPc 2y ago

This idiot first buys several laptops for 5000 Euro, then he switches to garbage 15-years old 50 Euro ones. From one extreme to another. And his website promotes anti-humanism propaganda, like turning off running water in people's homes for "sustainability". What a joke.

LittleTimothy 2y ago

I was surprised at how little the author mentioned their actual experience using the laptop. Some things haven't changed and that's fine. I'm sure you can do word processing on that machine, but there are areas where you can't control the fact the rest of the world has moved on. How does the average website appear? Can you browse youtube? Can you actually log on to internet banking? Do you have to disable scripting on websites in general? How bad is the screen? What's the wifi speed like? Also, given that this is the author's work laptop, what's the economic justification for not investing in the primary tool you use for work?

sangnoir 2y ago
> Also, given that this is the author's work laptop, what's the economic justification for not investing in the primary tool you use for work? Shouldn't the burden of proof be on the obverse - Why should one buy a new laptop when an old one will do? Your framing sounds to me like a post-hoc justification for consumerism. Why not "invest" in getting the absolute best in the primary means of transportation, or couch, TV or random product category?
- LittleTimothy 2y ago
  Come on now, even the author is pretty clear they're making compromises. Whether that's slower internet speed, lower quality display, worse battery or inability to run modern apps/web apps. There are a lot of ways in which this is making a trade off to priortize cost vs productivity. Sure, you can say all the ways in which the old laptop is inferior are unimportant, but I would atleast like to see some serious consideration of it.
  - sangnoir 2y ago
    I have my doubts you'd take any such arguments seriously, if you are set on the idea that productivity universally requires a 14-hour battery and a 2.5k screen. I was traveling recently and got a lot done on an 8-year old tablet. I was very productive, I suspect the combination of being offline (no 5G modem), no random notifications, just me, the terminal and a Bluetooth keyboard. The compact size & weight, and not having to worry about losing or having an expensive iLaptop stolen made for a worthwhile trade-off. Any productivity gains would have been marginal at best, and not worth the cost.

bencarlos 2y ago

[flagged]

Havoc 2y ago

Does kinda feel like laptops and desktops are experiencing the same effect as the phones. The specs are improving, but the experience is not improving in lockstep with it. Browsing & similar normal usage cases just doesn't need it.

cleverpatrick 2y ago

Maybe it's just me, but I find that older hardware will sometimes get "sticky" after just sitting around for awhile. I've had it happen to mice, and to the palm rests on my old Dell laptop. The best explanation I've had for this is that the rubber components degrade over time. But it makes me leery of buying older hardware because of that.

IYasha 2y ago

> New laptops may be more energy-efficient per computational power, but these gains are offset by more computational power. Should I rephrase: computers are getting ridiculously powerful, but JavaScript cancels out everything? Or just low-quality software in general. PS: I'm using 2014 laptop and only wish WWW wasn't such heavy garbage.