10 ms·

VW Group Collects Vehicle Movement Data

148 points by Luc 2y ago

jakeogh 2y ago
Deliberate problem. The inevitable corporate "oops, we fixed the auth" and common reply of "never ascribe malice to incompetence" is textbook psychological warfare. More importantly it's an effective overtone move vs collecting the data at all. Explicit instruction isn't necessary or desired, it's trivial to write a unfunded 'compliance' requirement, practically guaranteeing a specific outcome.
- oblio 2y ago
  The "sprint problem". There is a technical or moral concern that does not immediately make money, or worse, reduces income. Every development sprint tasks are prioritized. All that needs to happen is for the desired items to have, say, a priority of 3, while items in the sprint are always priorities 1 and 2. That ensures those items are never done. Examples? Google web applications tested and bugs fixed for Firefox.
  - Rygian 2y ago
    There's a person whose job is to prioritize. If that person, and that person's management, think that security and privacy are a priority, then things get fixed.
    - bboygravity 2y ago
      Where's the incentive for company leadership to spend resources on security currently? As long as there's no incentive to improve security, there will be no security. Examples of incentive: laws. Fix security or you can't sell your product, if you can't sell product you don't get a bonus or get fired. Don't gather location data if it's not critical for the functioning of the car or you can't sell your product, etc.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - lobsterthief 2y ago
        In my experience it’s really up to technical leadership to highlight what will happen if security flaws are ignored. If more senior leadership continues to ignore these issues, then it’s a culture issue and I wouldn’t stick around. Surely it’s all about risk mitigation; some out-of-date NPM package with a minor flaw might cause the can to be kicked, but a major flaw with demonstrable consequences should get priority.
        f1shy 2y ago
        You have a point. The problem in the german car industry there is no technical leadership. From the bottom management upwards they are all politicians. No technical people.
        intelVISA 2y ago
        Is that unique to the German car industry? Outside of a few tech corps or some small startups, mainly in the US, most shops seem to 'run' their tech function more like buyer/seller e.g. "here's some Euros in exchange for [thing] we'd like" instead of the traditional employer/employee dynamic where your boss can evaluate your work to some degree. Arguably they'd be better off actually doing that as a true buyer and just engaging B2B for their easily solved CRUD variants than this weird go-between that combines the negatives of managing employees with the negatives of buying unknown solutions.
        f1shy 2y ago
        No doubt it happens elsewhere. I meant only what I know for fact. Bur a good example where seems very much to be running similar is e.g. Boeing
      - mejutoco 2y ago
        GDPR already exists. It just needs to be enforced in this context.
a9ex 2y ago
Video of the talk: https://media.ccc.de/v/38c3-wir-wissen-wo-dein-auto-steht-volksdaten-von-volkswagen https://media.ccc.de/v/38c3-wir-wissen-wo-dein-auto-steht-vo...
sschueller 2y ago
Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42524422 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42524422
pluc 2y ago
This is why you don't bring your car for service at dealers. On "dumb" cars, that's when the transfer happens and it can be location data and even car audio. That's also why you don't install these little trackers to find your car when it gets stolen, because when it isn't stolen, they make money selling your location data, and that's the real product. Weaponizing convenience, as usual.
- gambiting 2y ago
  If you bought a brand new car, the loss of warranty is not worth not bringing it to the dealer. If you have a car already out of warranty then absolutely, service it anywhere else. But we have an EV and the 8 year warranty on the battery is also dependent on servicing the car within the dealer network, so we're in a bind for a while. And yes, I know that legally you don't have to service the car at the official dealer to maintain the warranty(at least in the EU/UK). The problem is that even if that's legally true, dealers will always try to weasel their way out of it. The service can be done at any VAT registered garage, but it has to be done using the exact compontents advised by the manufacturer and as advised by them - so if your garage gives you an invoice for "engine oil" you're screwed, it has to say "engine oil 5W20 SAE23531" or whatever is officially advised. Same for every other item or your service is invalid. And even if you do everything exactly as described, the dealer will just reject your warranty claim because you didn't service the car with them, then you have to take them to small claims court and you will almost certainly win, but it's time and effort. So as always, the law says one thing, and in practice things aren't that simple. >>That's also why you don't install these little trackers to find your car when it gets stolen Certain cars are impossible to insure without a tracker. And if you're a new and young driver good luck finding any policy that will insure you without a tracker. It's not always about convenience.
  - barbegal 2y ago
    If you take these corporations to court these arguments don't stand up. In your oil example, if you had a warranty claim due to say a broken suspension component then the type of engine oil used wouldn't be relevant. It just allows them to try to weasel their way out of claims.
Etheryte 2y ago
Germany makes a big ruckus about their local industry struggling to compete with Chinese manufacturers, but meanwhile the Volkswagen Group stumbles from one scandal to the next. As far as I'm concerned, if that's the way you do business, go bankrupt. I know all big manufacturers have their warts and flaws, but VW continues to be the frontrunner year after year.
- lnsru 2y ago
  I guess it’s the lack of everything in a partially state owned company. Here you go: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Act They don’t really think about competition. That’s an arena for power fights, empire building and incompetence on every level. Think about software and Cariad disaster. Cars were a byproduct. Germans associated them for generations with good life and bought without thinking. I would say, until Golf 5 the cars were brilliant, advertising fun and I would buy one. But now… just another expensive car brand.
  - fock 2y ago
    state-owned company where the 2 families owning the majority of shares block using the earnings to do any investment. The only thing were the state-stake comes into play is in not crushing unions in Germany (which they don't mind doing in the US) and not letting the whole enterprise fail (which it should ...)
  - f1shy 2y ago
    I just keep hearing the same point of inflection, about golf 5. Then there was a big decline, not only VW, but all the others also. What happened?!
    - Lio 2y ago
      Not sure about “golf 5” but I have a Mk.7 Golf from 2014 and it’s an amazing car. There’s no telemetry left in it (3G was turned iff years ago). It has all the safety features. It regularly gets 60 something MPG (Imperial). The Adaptive Cruise Control is all the self driving I need. It’s great.
oellegaard 2y ago
I own both Mercedes and Skoda (owned by VW) and I feel like both companies are headed in an extremely bad direction. The other day I saw that now Mercedes wants to charge me 200-300 USD/year for navigation and the ability to remotely lock your door. The fact is they let you pay $100k for a car and then they behave like Facebook and other consumer platforms where you pay with your data and can buy add-ons. You can't combine the two. In this case you paid for your car, so it's yours and they are hands-off unless you ask them for something. Also, the car should not randomly stop working after three years and ask you for extra money. Unfortunately, I don't have any faith in Tesla either. While in front of innovation surely they are behind moral. If I were to buy a car today, I'm not sure where to look.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- chii 2y ago
  This is what happens when you dont control the machine you purchase. Stallman have warned much of this, but it is often on deaf ears, because consumers' behaviour don't change.
  - magic_smoke_ee 2y ago
    People are suckers for convenience without considering the details of how something is made, supported, or serviced, or the TCO.
    - binary132 2y ago
      It’s more that our major markets are totally dominated by the standard pattern and there are no meaningful alternatives outside of bike and mass transit, which are not meaningful alternatives to vehicle ownership.
      - Silhouette 2y ago
        This is the most important point IMHO. There is no rational argument that someone is voluntarily signing up to some consumer-hostile behaviour by choosing to make a purchase if (a) every supplier in the market is playing the same game and (b) it is difficult to function as a normal member of society without buying that type of product from someone. Smartphones are a textbook example of this. For many people so are cars and TVs. General purpose computing is in danger of going the same way. Don't get me started on so-called smart homes. Call it a failure of the free market and competition to provide effective alternatives. Call it a lack of oversight and regulation from governments that increasingly back businesses and economic figures over protecting their own people. It doesn't really matter. Until there is clear law that says selling products to people that will actively act against the interests of the purchaser must at least be prominently disclosed before purchase and probably in the more serious cases simply be banned by law the enshittification will continue because it makes the decision-makers a lot of money.
leobg 2y ago
Love this: > VW Group proved their incompetence with regards to vehicle data and everything people accused Tesla of seems to happen at VW Group.
rurban 2y ago
They don't only collect, they also share this data online to interested parties, unprotected. With full name and email.
- f1shy 2y ago
  And born date! Just a little bit of background: if you call to any clinic or private service, health or otherwise, is custom in Germany to verify your identity asking your born date and address; both fields were disclosed. So if I see X parks in a clinic, I could call and get the results of any treatment or whatever… just terrible !
tempodox 2y ago
So we have cookie consent banners for web sites but in a car the manufacturer can just steal all the data they want…
- gambiting 2y ago
  Oh you do agree to it when you start the car for the first time, so it's not any different than cookie consent banners in that sense. It's just meaningless because you can't not agree to it.
  - aembleton 2y ago
    How does it work when buying a used car?
    - gambiting 2y ago
      Legally, it doesn't - there's no way that whatever the last owner has agreed to is binding, but the functionality will continue to run regardless.
checkyoursudo 2y ago
I have a really hard time understanding why we as a society (or various societies) are okay these kinds of things. Sure, I understand that there is little I can do about it, but why are powerful people okay with their car company or phone company knowing everything about them? Are people in California and the EU at least covered by data privacy laws?
- grecy 2y ago
  We’re not ok with it, but this is where unlimited lobbying has gotten us. The rich and powerful companies literally make the laws they want.
- f1shy 2y ago
  I am by no means ok with it. And I try to vote with my money when I buy.
  - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
    > Independence limited, Freedom of choice is made for you, my friend. There will be no products without those “features”.
  - checkyoursudo 2y ago
    I try, too. It is less and less possible every day.
- theoreticalmal 2y ago
  There are clear financial reasons for governments and vehicle manufacturers to want this to happen. From the consumer standpoint, what’s the alternative? Every new vehicle has one of these devices (recently mandated in USA by 20XX). If you want to buy a new vehicle, there’s no option but to have a telematics device installed. If you think you’re competent enough to rip the component out yourself, hopefully it’s not integral to the functioning of the vehicle. If it isn’t, your warranty will be void if you do
  - 2y ago
fidotron 2y ago
Ever since cars started having cell modems in “for emergencies” it has been clear governments are encouraging this sort of thing to enable mass population monitoring. It is practically mandatory for manufacturers to do this. Thanks to Starlink it is also possible for a private entity to track every device with cellular access. I don’t think people on here are ready for quite where all this goes.
- TacticalCoder 2y ago
  > I don’t think people on here are ready for quite where all this goes. Exactly. People should vote for less government and should vote for those willing to defend freedom of speech. Actually: we're heading towards that dystopian future because of all the government lovers and apologists. There are only 40% of the EU citizens that don't want the EU. It's not enough.
  - gambiting 2y ago
    >>There are only 40% of the EU citizens that don't want the EU. 40% of EU citizens are not right in their heads then. That number should be a lot smaller.
    - f1shy 2y ago
      That is a little harsh. Good that democracy is about respecting the opinions of other people.
      - unethical_ban 2y ago
        No one criticized democracy, and it's not an attack on democracy to hold people with bad opinions in low regard.
        f1shy 2y ago
        That low regard in the history has change to hate, persecution and qualified vote, to mention a few. Specially when not saying “they are wrong” but “they are incapable of thinking”. So per se both a bad thing, but I personally regard such expressions as dangerous for the long term democracy
SebFender 2y ago
All do. Nothing new - so what's your solution?
tompccs 2y ago
My understanding of GDPR law is that the fine is up to EUR 20M per breach. I have some experience with the data protection culture in Germany and it's frankly excessive at times. It's incredible that this was able to happen at this scale. In theory the company could be bankrupted by fines if the letter of the law is followed, never mind the reputational implications for a company only just getting over the emissions scandal.
junaru 2y ago
Can someone point me in the right direction on how cars submit the telemetry in the first place? Clearly some cellular technology is in use but this would require an eSIM or something from your local carrier. Do modern cars have "free internet" baked into them somehow that lets them upload this data? Whats the technology/protocol called ? How does it work in foreign countries with different carriers.
- skwee357 2y ago
  I rented a car recently in Germany. Before even connecting my iPhone via Apple CarPlay, the dashboard of the car displayed a 4G sign and had its own navigation system that seemed to be live. You also pay a “cross border” fee if you intend to drive the car outside Germany to other EU countries, and most mobile operators in the EU also include some sort of roaming across the EU. So I guess that could be one explanation. Edit: there also seems to be an “SOS” button to connect you with an operator of some kind. There is a dedicated button for that (saw it in this car, and a few other I’ve rented). Edit 2: and this car seemed to know the speed limit. At first I was sure it’s doing some OCR, but then I realized that it gets it via the internet based on my location.
  - shoo_pl 2y ago
    This. For a several years now, all new cars sold in EU must have an S.O.S. button that will call emergency services. As a result each and every car has some sort of SIM card built-in and a cellular plan that works across entire Europe. This SIM card must be free, but its a gateway to things like upselling (pay us $XX and get a wifi in your car) and also a way for the manufacturer to have always-on connection with the car. Some manufacturers (KIA/Hyundai, Ford, Toyota) offer complimentary free app that you can use to check car location, open/close it, turn on AC (hybrid/ev) etc. with option for more paid features. Edit: As for the speed limit, its also Europe regulation from this year - car must know the speed limit and beep if you exceed it. Different manufacturers do it differently, but since this has been optional feature for so many years in every car, all manufacturers had this ready - and its mostly based on built-in navigation + road sign recognition. It could use cellular but since this has been feature for so long I don't think this is how it works in majority cases.
perch56 2y ago
Funny enough, ‘Cariad’ translates to ‘hell chariot’ in Romanian—a name that feels oddly fitting given this fiasco.
- ahartmetz 2y ago
  Imagine how bad software development in car companies must be - it's worse than that in reality. A giant clusterfuck of incompetence, especially from the top.
  - f1shy 2y ago
    I can absolutely attest to this. Like 200%. The level of incompetence in SW is just beyond comprehension. Just mind blowing. Unbelievable stupid.

148 points by Luc 2y ago

Deliberate problem. The inevitable corporate "oops, we fixed the auth" and common reply of "never ascribe malice to incompetence" is textbook psychological warfare. More importantly it's an effective overtone move vs collecting the data at all. Explicit instruction isn't necessary or desired, it's trivial to write a unfunded 'compliance' requirement, practically guaranteeing a specific outcome.

oblio 2y ago
The "sprint problem". There is a technical or moral concern that does not immediately make money, or worse, reduces income. Every development sprint tasks are prioritized. All that needs to happen is for the desired items to have, say, a priority of 3, while items in the sprint are always priorities 1 and 2. That ensures those items are never done. Examples? Google web applications tested and bugs fixed for Firefox.
- Rygian 2y ago
  There's a person whose job is to prioritize. If that person, and that person's management, think that security and privacy are a priority, then things get fixed.
  - bboygravity 2y ago
    Where's the incentive for company leadership to spend resources on security currently? As long as there's no incentive to improve security, there will be no security. Examples of incentive: laws. Fix security or you can't sell your product, if you can't sell product you don't get a bonus or get fired. Don't gather location data if it's not critical for the functioning of the car or you can't sell your product, etc.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - lobsterthief 2y ago
      In my experience it’s really up to technical leadership to highlight what will happen if security flaws are ignored. If more senior leadership continues to ignore these issues, then it’s a culture issue and I wouldn’t stick around. Surely it’s all about risk mitigation; some out-of-date NPM package with a minor flaw might cause the can to be kicked, but a major flaw with demonstrable consequences should get priority.
      - f1shy 2y ago
        You have a point. The problem in the german car industry there is no technical leadership. From the bottom management upwards they are all politicians. No technical people.
        intelVISA 2y ago
        Is that unique to the German car industry? Outside of a few tech corps or some small startups, mainly in the US, most shops seem to 'run' their tech function more like buyer/seller e.g. "here's some Euros in exchange for [thing] we'd like" instead of the traditional employer/employee dynamic where your boss can evaluate your work to some degree. Arguably they'd be better off actually doing that as a true buyer and just engaging B2B for their easily solved CRUD variants than this weird go-between that combines the negatives of managing employees with the negatives of buying unknown solutions.
        f1shy 2y ago
        No doubt it happens elsewhere. I meant only what I know for fact. Bur a good example where seems very much to be running similar is e.g. Boeing
    - mejutoco 2y ago
      GDPR already exists. It just needs to be enforced in this context.

a9ex 2y ago

Video of the talk: https://media.ccc.de/v/38c3-wir-wissen-wo-dein-auto-steht-volksdaten-von-volkswagen https://media.ccc.de/v/38c3-wir-wissen-wo-dein-auto-steht-vo...

sschueller 2y ago

Previous discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42524422 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42524422

pluc 2y ago

This is why you don't bring your car for service at dealers. On "dumb" cars, that's when the transfer happens and it can be location data and even car audio. That's also why you don't install these little trackers to find your car when it gets stolen, because when it isn't stolen, they make money selling your location data, and that's the real product. Weaponizing convenience, as usual.

gambiting 2y ago
If you bought a brand new car, the loss of warranty is not worth not bringing it to the dealer. If you have a car already out of warranty then absolutely, service it anywhere else. But we have an EV and the 8 year warranty on the battery is also dependent on servicing the car within the dealer network, so we're in a bind for a while. And yes, I know that legally you don't have to service the car at the official dealer to maintain the warranty(at least in the EU/UK). The problem is that even if that's legally true, dealers will always try to weasel their way out of it. The service can be done at any VAT registered garage, but it has to be done using the exact compontents advised by the manufacturer and as advised by them - so if your garage gives you an invoice for "engine oil" you're screwed, it has to say "engine oil 5W20 SAE23531" or whatever is officially advised. Same for every other item or your service is invalid. And even if you do everything exactly as described, the dealer will just reject your warranty claim because you didn't service the car with them, then you have to take them to small claims court and you will almost certainly win, but it's time and effort. So as always, the law says one thing, and in practice things aren't that simple. >>That's also why you don't install these little trackers to find your car when it gets stolen Certain cars are impossible to insure without a tracker. And if you're a new and young driver good luck finding any policy that will insure you without a tracker. It's not always about convenience.
- barbegal 2y ago
  If you take these corporations to court these arguments don't stand up. In your oil example, if you had a warranty claim due to say a broken suspension component then the type of engine oil used wouldn't be relevant. It just allows them to try to weasel their way out of claims.

Etheryte 2y ago

Germany makes a big ruckus about their local industry struggling to compete with Chinese manufacturers, but meanwhile the Volkswagen Group stumbles from one scandal to the next. As far as I'm concerned, if that's the way you do business, go bankrupt. I know all big manufacturers have their warts and flaws, but VW continues to be the frontrunner year after year.

lnsru 2y ago
I guess it’s the lack of everything in a partially state owned company. Here you go: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Act They don’t really think about competition. That’s an arena for power fights, empire building and incompetence on every level. Think about software and Cariad disaster. Cars were a byproduct. Germans associated them for generations with good life and bought without thinking. I would say, until Golf 5 the cars were brilliant, advertising fun and I would buy one. But now… just another expensive car brand.
- fock 2y ago
  state-owned company where the 2 families owning the majority of shares block using the earnings to do any investment. The only thing were the state-stake comes into play is in not crushing unions in Germany (which they don't mind doing in the US) and not letting the whole enterprise fail (which it should ...)
- f1shy 2y ago
  I just keep hearing the same point of inflection, about golf 5. Then there was a big decline, not only VW, but all the others also. What happened?!
  - Lio 2y ago
    Not sure about “golf 5” but I have a Mk.7 Golf from 2014 and it’s an amazing car. There’s no telemetry left in it (3G was turned iff years ago). It has all the safety features. It regularly gets 60 something MPG (Imperial). The Adaptive Cruise Control is all the self driving I need. It’s great.

oellegaard 2y ago

I own both Mercedes and Skoda (owned by VW) and I feel like both companies are headed in an extremely bad direction. The other day I saw that now Mercedes wants to charge me 200-300 USD/year for navigation and the ability to remotely lock your door. The fact is they let you pay $100k for a car and then they behave like Facebook and other consumer platforms where you pay with your data and can buy add-ons. You can't combine the two. In this case you paid for your car, so it's yours and they are hands-off unless you ask them for something. Also, the car should not randomly stop working after three years and ask you for extra money. Unfortunately, I don't have any faith in Tesla either. While in front of innovation surely they are behind moral. If I were to buy a car today, I'm not sure where to look.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
chii 2y ago
This is what happens when you dont control the machine you purchase. Stallman have warned much of this, but it is often on deaf ears, because consumers' behaviour don't change.
- magic_smoke_ee 2y ago
  People are suckers for convenience without considering the details of how something is made, supported, or serviced, or the TCO.
  - binary132 2y ago
    It’s more that our major markets are totally dominated by the standard pattern and there are no meaningful alternatives outside of bike and mass transit, which are not meaningful alternatives to vehicle ownership.
    - Silhouette 2y ago
      This is the most important point IMHO. There is no rational argument that someone is voluntarily signing up to some consumer-hostile behaviour by choosing to make a purchase if (a) every supplier in the market is playing the same game and (b) it is difficult to function as a normal member of society without buying that type of product from someone. Smartphones are a textbook example of this. For many people so are cars and TVs. General purpose computing is in danger of going the same way. Don't get me started on so-called smart homes. Call it a failure of the free market and competition to provide effective alternatives. Call it a lack of oversight and regulation from governments that increasingly back businesses and economic figures over protecting their own people. It doesn't really matter. Until there is clear law that says selling products to people that will actively act against the interests of the purchaser must at least be prominently disclosed before purchase and probably in the more serious cases simply be banned by law the enshittification will continue because it makes the decision-makers a lot of money.

leobg 2y ago

Love this: > VW Group proved their incompetence with regards to vehicle data and everything people accused Tesla of seems to happen at VW Group.

rurban 2y ago

They don't only collect, they also share this data online to interested parties, unprotected. With full name and email.

f1shy 2y ago
And born date! Just a little bit of background: if you call to any clinic or private service, health or otherwise, is custom in Germany to verify your identity asking your born date and address; both fields were disclosed. So if I see X parks in a clinic, I could call and get the results of any treatment or whatever… just terrible !

tempodox 2y ago

So we have cookie consent banners for web sites but in a car the manufacturer can just steal all the data they want…

gambiting 2y ago
Oh you do agree to it when you start the car for the first time, so it's not any different than cookie consent banners in that sense. It's just meaningless because you can't not agree to it.
- aembleton 2y ago
  How does it work when buying a used car?
  - gambiting 2y ago
    Legally, it doesn't - there's no way that whatever the last owner has agreed to is binding, but the functionality will continue to run regardless.

checkyoursudo 2y ago

I have a really hard time understanding why we as a society (or various societies) are okay these kinds of things. Sure, I understand that there is little I can do about it, but why are powerful people okay with their car company or phone company knowing everything about them? Are people in California and the EU at least covered by data privacy laws?

grecy 2y ago
We’re not ok with it, but this is where unlimited lobbying has gotten us. The rich and powerful companies literally make the laws they want.
f1shy 2y ago
I am by no means ok with it. And I try to vote with my money when I buy.
- rad_gruchalski 2y ago
  > Independence limited, Freedom of choice is made for you, my friend. There will be no products without those “features”.
- checkyoursudo 2y ago
  I try, too. It is less and less possible every day.
theoreticalmal 2y ago
There are clear financial reasons for governments and vehicle manufacturers to want this to happen. From the consumer standpoint, what’s the alternative? Every new vehicle has one of these devices (recently mandated in USA by 20XX). If you want to buy a new vehicle, there’s no option but to have a telematics device installed. If you think you’re competent enough to rip the component out yourself, hopefully it’s not integral to the functioning of the vehicle. If it isn’t, your warranty will be void if you do
- 2y ago

fidotron 2y ago

Ever since cars started having cell modems in “for emergencies” it has been clear governments are encouraging this sort of thing to enable mass population monitoring. It is practically mandatory for manufacturers to do this. Thanks to Starlink it is also possible for a private entity to track every device with cellular access. I don’t think people on here are ready for quite where all this goes.

TacticalCoder 2y ago
> I don’t think people on here are ready for quite where all this goes. Exactly. People should vote for less government and should vote for those willing to defend freedom of speech. Actually: we're heading towards that dystopian future because of all the government lovers and apologists. There are only 40% of the EU citizens that don't want the EU. It's not enough.
- gambiting 2y ago
  >>There are only 40% of the EU citizens that don't want the EU. 40% of EU citizens are not right in their heads then. That number should be a lot smaller.
  - f1shy 2y ago
    That is a little harsh. Good that democracy is about respecting the opinions of other people.
    - unethical_ban 2y ago
      No one criticized democracy, and it's not an attack on democracy to hold people with bad opinions in low regard.
      - f1shy 2y ago
        That low regard in the history has change to hate, persecution and qualified vote, to mention a few. Specially when not saying “they are wrong” but “they are incapable of thinking”. So per se both a bad thing, but I personally regard such expressions as dangerous for the long term democracy

SebFender 2y ago

All do. Nothing new - so what's your solution?

tompccs 2y ago

My understanding of GDPR law is that the fine is up to EUR 20M per breach. I have some experience with the data protection culture in Germany and it's frankly excessive at times. It's incredible that this was able to happen at this scale. In theory the company could be bankrupted by fines if the letter of the law is followed, never mind the reputational implications for a company only just getting over the emissions scandal.

junaru 2y ago

Can someone point me in the right direction on how cars submit the telemetry in the first place? Clearly some cellular technology is in use but this would require an eSIM or something from your local carrier. Do modern cars have "free internet" baked into them somehow that lets them upload this data? Whats the technology/protocol called ? How does it work in foreign countries with different carriers.

skwee357 2y ago
I rented a car recently in Germany. Before even connecting my iPhone via Apple CarPlay, the dashboard of the car displayed a 4G sign and had its own navigation system that seemed to be live. You also pay a “cross border” fee if you intend to drive the car outside Germany to other EU countries, and most mobile operators in the EU also include some sort of roaming across the EU. So I guess that could be one explanation. Edit: there also seems to be an “SOS” button to connect you with an operator of some kind. There is a dedicated button for that (saw it in this car, and a few other I’ve rented). Edit 2: and this car seemed to know the speed limit. At first I was sure it’s doing some OCR, but then I realized that it gets it via the internet based on my location.
- shoo_pl 2y ago
  This. For a several years now, all new cars sold in EU must have an S.O.S. button that will call emergency services. As a result each and every car has some sort of SIM card built-in and a cellular plan that works across entire Europe. This SIM card must be free, but its a gateway to things like upselling (pay us $XX and get a wifi in your car) and also a way for the manufacturer to have always-on connection with the car. Some manufacturers (KIA/Hyundai, Ford, Toyota) offer complimentary free app that you can use to check car location, open/close it, turn on AC (hybrid/ev) etc. with option for more paid features. Edit: As for the speed limit, its also Europe regulation from this year - car must know the speed limit and beep if you exceed it. Different manufacturers do it differently, but since this has been optional feature for so many years in every car, all manufacturers had this ready - and its mostly based on built-in navigation + road sign recognition. It could use cellular but since this has been feature for so long I don't think this is how it works in majority cases.

perch56 2y ago

Funny enough, ‘Cariad’ translates to ‘hell chariot’ in Romanian—a name that feels oddly fitting given this fiasco.

ahartmetz 2y ago
Imagine how bad software development in car companies must be - it's worse than that in reality. A giant clusterfuck of incompetence, especially from the top.
- f1shy 2y ago
  I can absolutely attest to this. Like 200%. The level of incompetence in SW is just beyond comprehension. Just mind blowing. Unbelievable stupid.