7 ms·

Americans: I'm not anti-China, just anti-CCP Chinese: I'm not anti-west, just anti people who are anti-China

by Leary 2y ago

pydry 2y ago
[flagged]
- BobbyJo 2y ago
  > Americans: we're not anti you, we just want to overthrow your government and install a puppet. I don't think Americans want a puppet government. We'd be perfectly happy if they just stopped the IP theft, spying, and maybe treated the Chinese people better. Kind of a shame when you can be thrown in prison just for saying your government did something wrong, or trying to look up history like Tiananmen Square.
  - wumeow 2y ago
    My opinion of China would be much more positive if they weren’t chomping at the bit to invade and annex Taiwan.
    - pydry 2y ago
      My opinion of America would probably be a bit more positive if it only behaved aggressively towards territories that were internationally recognized as being part of America. This isnt to excuse China's belligerence, just to put its actions in perspective, something which American nationalists vehemently object to.
      - 1659447091 2y ago
        > just to put its actions in perspective To put Chinas actions in perspective, they continue acts of aggression towards the Philippines in internationally recognized Philippine territory that they wish to control.
  - pydry 2y ago
    >I don't think Americans want a puppet government. The average american doesnt but the elites who feed the average american opinion forming propaganda certainly do. And this is why the average american would draw this distinction - the opinion forming propaganda they are fed draws this distinction. >We'd be perfectly happy if they just stopped the IP theft, spying, and maybe treated the Chinese people better. America had a perfectly good relationship with China when it was weaker and it did all of the same stuff in the past. Now it has become powerful what was once tolerated is now unforgiveable. For American elites China's real crime is being powerful. It tolerates genocide (Israel), spying on America (Israel), BRUTAL disrespect for human rights on a scale that far eclipses China (Saudi), but what it doesnt tolerate ever is imperial rivals.
    - talldayo 2y ago
      The political and financial elite have not advocated for a puppet government ever. Like Europe benefits from cheap Russian gas, American businesses took full advantage of China's ignorance of human rights. The prevailing American diplomatic strategy since the 70s has been to use globalist reform to force hermit kingdoms to sit at the discussion table. It ultimately worked in the case of the USSR - extreme sanctions and paranoia forced a collapse of their government after their leaders refused to fully cooperate with NATO. China is unique, in that this strategy was squarely aimed at them but ended up being turned around completely. China used their autocratic authority to embrace international trade and create incentives to develop a surplus even when their own citizens couldn't keep up with enough demand. Where the USSR denied progress in civilian industries, China embraced and sponsored it. Capitalism saw the benefits, cheap plastic garbage started getting shipped worldwide, and the free market became addicted to unsustainable, low-margin products that were often made in the hands of indentured political ideologues. It's a problem you can solve without a "puppet government" if you create a reasonable basis of accountability and negotiation for both countries. America doesn't reject that, China does. > For American elites China's real crime is being powerful. America tolerates all sorts of morally reprehensible and powerful nations. We sell half of them weapons and then turn around and deny responsibility on a regular basis. China knows they could be an American ally... if it benefit them. The whataboutism spread by the CCP is meant to frustrate American nationalist sentiments, but it doesn't explain why their approach is superior. Truly, China can be as powerful as they want, as long as their interests are aligned with the international community and not the other way around. If the world lets China use their strength to decide who is morally correct, then it's the international community that is the puppet government.
  - janalsncm 2y ago
    Frankly, human rights is mostly a talking point. The US allies itself with plenty of other countries with poor human rights records. Saudi Arabia kidnapped a US resident and cut him into pieces but I have never heard any serious noises about ending that friendship. Is Saudi Arabia’s treatment of gay people or women even a consideration? No. Political expediency is. China is the US’s chief geopolitical rival, Saudi Arabia is not.
    - talldayo 2y ago
      > Is Saudi Arabia’s treatment of gay people or women even a consideration? No. With a reductive enough set of criteria, you could say this of any ally of any nation anywhere in the world. If China was allied with the US instead of adversarial, you'd probably be calling out American tolerance of the Xinjiang cotton industry. But there is serious scrutiny of it, enabled by a remove from Chinese politics and party-aligned thought. If China respected the criticism they received from abroad, they would have a much clearer path to being a respected international power. From an American perspective, partnership with the Saudis isn't completely irredeemable. In fact, things are going pretty well - womens rights were enhanced (albeit not fixed), cultural reform succeeded, Sharia law was partially denounced and minors were exempted from the death sentence. As opposed to what would have happened without diplomatic relations, these citizens would have suffered even greater injustice. Giving Saudi Arabia an obligation to the international community actually did improve the conditions of their government and the people living there. It didn't magically correct things overnight, but the thaw is working. If you really want to make Americans piss their breeches, just mention Israel. That is a proper example of an unrepentant US ally that has abused the trust of the international community and continues to deviate from the global basis of human rights. Khashoggi dies, and the world is up in arms. The Mossad or the IDF does the same thing, and everyone asks why you're surprised since Israel has been targeting journalists for decades. Of course, American nationalists treat Israel the way Chinese nationalists treat Tiananmen Square. The idea of it being a problem is denied - instead, it's a "small chapter in history", "it was justified", "it all happened so long ago" and "we can't do anything to fix it".
    - BobbyJo 2y ago
      You'd be surprised to learn that most Americans also do not like how Saudi Arabia treats its citizens as well. How we feel about a government, and how we interact with it geopolitically, are two different things. We do not like how either of these two governments does things, but we coexist with them to the extent necessary because we share a planet. We trade with both for instance. We are free to feel how we want, and talk about it, and its the government's job to safeguard that freedom with pragmatic and necessary relationships.
- lacy_tinpot 2y ago
  "No more regime change wars" is literally accused of being a populist slogan.
  - SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
    I'm not sure what you mean. In the US, anyone can accuse anything of being a populist slogan, and there's generally no penalties for repeating or adhering to a slogan someone else feels is populist. I've never faced even mild consequences for my vocal belief that the US should stop fighting regime change wars.
    - pydry 2y ago
      Try leaking evidence of a war crime. Something we would consider heroic if a Russian or Chinese dissident did it. You will get nailed to a tree.
      - SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
        I've faced no consequences at all for repeatedly telling people that the US has committed war crimes and pointing them to evidence of said war crimes. It's true, of course, that you'll go to jail for a bit if you obtain a security clearance and then violate it, but even then I don't think it's reasonable to characterize that as "nailed to a tree". Chelsea Manning lives freely in the US and is quite popular in some circles; my understanding is that China generally imposes the death penalty for similar leaks (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/6/china-hands-death-sentence-to-state-secrets-leaker https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/6/china-hands-death-s...).
        janalsncm 2y ago
        > Chelsea Manning lives freely in the US This leaves out the fact that the President of the United States commuted her sentence. She was originally sentenced to 35 years in maximum security prison, which is longer than some murder sentences. If your point is that speaking out against the government carries fewer penalties in the US than China, we should assume whistleblowers will receive the full punishment for doing so. While a 35 year sentence is probably better than a death sentence, its not something I would plant a flag in.
- AnimalMuppet 2y ago
  They want us to stop meddling in what they claim to be their territory. I can see why they want it. What I can't see is why they should expect us to give it to them.
seanmcdirmid 2y ago
In Seattle, in the summer we have anti-CPC protests almost every Saturday run by Chinese Americans I assume, I think it is driven by Falan Dafa though. The biggest critics of the CPC seem to be ethnic Chinese though (well, or other ethnicities present in China or Asia as a whole), not generally European descended Americans.
- HDThoreaun 2y ago
  And all the cubans in the US hate castro. Its not a representative sample. Also its CCP not CPC
  - marcosdumay 2y ago
    When all the immigrants from some place are there because they are running from the same thing, yes, that's very representative.
    - bboygravity 2y ago
      The few Chinese I met who managed to (permanently) escape China after covid consider themselves extremely lucky. Biased sample, maybe. Life doesn't seem easy for (young) folks in China right now and Winnie doesn't seem to be very popular among them.
    - olalonde 2y ago
      The CCP is actually widely popular in mainland China.
      - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
        Russia is popular in Russia. All North Koreans you would be allowed to speak to in North Korea love North Korea. What a news.
        olalonde 2y ago
        I used to share this view but it turned out to be naive. After living in China for over a decade I can confidently say that the majority of Chinese actually support the CCP. I know, it's hard to believe for us Westerners.
maxglute 2y ago
Americans: >If I was the US President, and I wanted to win hearts and minds in China, here's what I'd do. In every single speech where I'm talking about China, I'd make a conspicuous effort to complement Chinese people, Chinese values, and Chinese culture. I'd talk about how my Chinese staffers are the smartest and most hardworking people I've ever worked with (which honestly is probably true). I'd talk about how much my daughter is obsessed with ancient Chinese dresses. I'd talk about how I'm learning Mandarin in my free time, and have a live "Aw shucks" conversation in Mandarin. It's kind of incredible this is a serious suggestion. "Our foreign policy is to punch you in the face, but now we're also going to lie about our enmity to gaslight you, because we think you're that naive and stupid". PRC nationals also not going to buy a word of it when the central narrative is economic / military containment. New gen of patriots/nationalisms doesn't seek western validation anymore. Few in PRC is going to be fooled as long as sanctions / export controls are ongoing and US military bases are around. People not that gullible. There's also the 100,000s of international students and millions of diasphora to report back all the sinophobic shit happening in the west despite honeyed words.

Americans: I'm not anti-China, just anti-CCP Chinese: I'm not anti-west, just anti people who are anti-China

by Leary 2y ago

Americans: I'm not anti-China, just anti-CCP Chinese: I'm not anti-west, just anti people who are anti-China

pydry 2y ago

[flagged]

BobbyJo 2y ago
> Americans: we're not anti you, we just want to overthrow your government and install a puppet. I don't think Americans want a puppet government. We'd be perfectly happy if they just stopped the IP theft, spying, and maybe treated the Chinese people better. Kind of a shame when you can be thrown in prison just for saying your government did something wrong, or trying to look up history like Tiananmen Square.
- wumeow 2y ago
  My opinion of China would be much more positive if they weren’t chomping at the bit to invade and annex Taiwan.
  - pydry 2y ago
    My opinion of America would probably be a bit more positive if it only behaved aggressively towards territories that were internationally recognized as being part of America. This isnt to excuse China's belligerence, just to put its actions in perspective, something which American nationalists vehemently object to.
    - 1659447091 2y ago
      > just to put its actions in perspective To put Chinas actions in perspective, they continue acts of aggression towards the Philippines in internationally recognized Philippine territory that they wish to control.
- pydry 2y ago
  >I don't think Americans want a puppet government. The average american doesnt but the elites who feed the average american opinion forming propaganda certainly do. And this is why the average american would draw this distinction - the opinion forming propaganda they are fed draws this distinction. >We'd be perfectly happy if they just stopped the IP theft, spying, and maybe treated the Chinese people better. America had a perfectly good relationship with China when it was weaker and it did all of the same stuff in the past. Now it has become powerful what was once tolerated is now unforgiveable. For American elites China's real crime is being powerful. It tolerates genocide (Israel), spying on America (Israel), BRUTAL disrespect for human rights on a scale that far eclipses China (Saudi), but what it doesnt tolerate ever is imperial rivals.
  - talldayo 2y ago
    The political and financial elite have not advocated for a puppet government ever. Like Europe benefits from cheap Russian gas, American businesses took full advantage of China's ignorance of human rights. The prevailing American diplomatic strategy since the 70s has been to use globalist reform to force hermit kingdoms to sit at the discussion table. It ultimately worked in the case of the USSR - extreme sanctions and paranoia forced a collapse of their government after their leaders refused to fully cooperate with NATO. China is unique, in that this strategy was squarely aimed at them but ended up being turned around completely. China used their autocratic authority to embrace international trade and create incentives to develop a surplus even when their own citizens couldn't keep up with enough demand. Where the USSR denied progress in civilian industries, China embraced and sponsored it. Capitalism saw the benefits, cheap plastic garbage started getting shipped worldwide, and the free market became addicted to unsustainable, low-margin products that were often made in the hands of indentured political ideologues. It's a problem you can solve without a "puppet government" if you create a reasonable basis of accountability and negotiation for both countries. America doesn't reject that, China does. > For American elites China's real crime is being powerful. America tolerates all sorts of morally reprehensible and powerful nations. We sell half of them weapons and then turn around and deny responsibility on a regular basis. China knows they could be an American ally... if it benefit them. The whataboutism spread by the CCP is meant to frustrate American nationalist sentiments, but it doesn't explain why their approach is superior. Truly, China can be as powerful as they want, as long as their interests are aligned with the international community and not the other way around. If the world lets China use their strength to decide who is morally correct, then it's the international community that is the puppet government.
- janalsncm 2y ago
  Frankly, human rights is mostly a talking point. The US allies itself with plenty of other countries with poor human rights records. Saudi Arabia kidnapped a US resident and cut him into pieces but I have never heard any serious noises about ending that friendship. Is Saudi Arabia’s treatment of gay people or women even a consideration? No. Political expediency is. China is the US’s chief geopolitical rival, Saudi Arabia is not.
  - talldayo 2y ago
    > Is Saudi Arabia’s treatment of gay people or women even a consideration? No. With a reductive enough set of criteria, you could say this of any ally of any nation anywhere in the world. If China was allied with the US instead of adversarial, you'd probably be calling out American tolerance of the Xinjiang cotton industry. But there is serious scrutiny of it, enabled by a remove from Chinese politics and party-aligned thought. If China respected the criticism they received from abroad, they would have a much clearer path to being a respected international power. From an American perspective, partnership with the Saudis isn't completely irredeemable. In fact, things are going pretty well - womens rights were enhanced (albeit not fixed), cultural reform succeeded, Sharia law was partially denounced and minors were exempted from the death sentence. As opposed to what would have happened without diplomatic relations, these citizens would have suffered even greater injustice. Giving Saudi Arabia an obligation to the international community actually did improve the conditions of their government and the people living there. It didn't magically correct things overnight, but the thaw is working. If you really want to make Americans piss their breeches, just mention Israel. That is a proper example of an unrepentant US ally that has abused the trust of the international community and continues to deviate from the global basis of human rights. Khashoggi dies, and the world is up in arms. The Mossad or the IDF does the same thing, and everyone asks why you're surprised since Israel has been targeting journalists for decades. Of course, American nationalists treat Israel the way Chinese nationalists treat Tiananmen Square. The idea of it being a problem is denied - instead, it's a "small chapter in history", "it was justified", "it all happened so long ago" and "we can't do anything to fix it".
  - BobbyJo 2y ago
    You'd be surprised to learn that most Americans also do not like how Saudi Arabia treats its citizens as well. How we feel about a government, and how we interact with it geopolitically, are two different things. We do not like how either of these two governments does things, but we coexist with them to the extent necessary because we share a planet. We trade with both for instance. We are free to feel how we want, and talk about it, and its the government's job to safeguard that freedom with pragmatic and necessary relationships.
lacy_tinpot 2y ago
"No more regime change wars" is literally accused of being a populist slogan.
- SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
  I'm not sure what you mean. In the US, anyone can accuse anything of being a populist slogan, and there's generally no penalties for repeating or adhering to a slogan someone else feels is populist. I've never faced even mild consequences for my vocal belief that the US should stop fighting regime change wars.
  - pydry 2y ago
    Try leaking evidence of a war crime. Something we would consider heroic if a Russian or Chinese dissident did it. You will get nailed to a tree.
    - SpicyLemonZest 2y ago
      I've faced no consequences at all for repeatedly telling people that the US has committed war crimes and pointing them to evidence of said war crimes. It's true, of course, that you'll go to jail for a bit if you obtain a security clearance and then violate it, but even then I don't think it's reasonable to characterize that as "nailed to a tree". Chelsea Manning lives freely in the US and is quite popular in some circles; my understanding is that China generally imposes the death penalty for similar leaks (https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/6/china-hands-death-sentence-to-state-secrets-leaker https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/6/china-hands-death-s...).
      - janalsncm 2y ago
        > Chelsea Manning lives freely in the US This leaves out the fact that the President of the United States commuted her sentence. She was originally sentenced to 35 years in maximum security prison, which is longer than some murder sentences. If your point is that speaking out against the government carries fewer penalties in the US than China, we should assume whistleblowers will receive the full punishment for doing so. While a 35 year sentence is probably better than a death sentence, its not something I would plant a flag in.
AnimalMuppet 2y ago
They want us to stop meddling in what they claim to be their territory. I can see why they want it. What I can't see is why they should expect us to give it to them.

seanmcdirmid 2y ago

In Seattle, in the summer we have anti-CPC protests almost every Saturday run by Chinese Americans I assume, I think it is driven by Falan Dafa though. The biggest critics of the CPC seem to be ethnic Chinese though (well, or other ethnicities present in China or Asia as a whole), not generally European descended Americans.

HDThoreaun 2y ago
And all the cubans in the US hate castro. Its not a representative sample. Also its CCP not CPC
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  When all the immigrants from some place are there because they are running from the same thing, yes, that's very representative.
  - bboygravity 2y ago
    The few Chinese I met who managed to (permanently) escape China after covid consider themselves extremely lucky. Biased sample, maybe. Life doesn't seem easy for (young) folks in China right now and Winnie doesn't seem to be very popular among them.
  - olalonde 2y ago
    The CCP is actually widely popular in mainland China.
    - rad_gruchalski 2y ago
      Russia is popular in Russia. All North Koreans you would be allowed to speak to in North Korea love North Korea. What a news.
      - olalonde 2y ago
        I used to share this view but it turned out to be naive. After living in China for over a decade I can confidently say that the majority of Chinese actually support the CCP. I know, it's hard to believe for us Westerners.

maxglute 2y ago

Americans: >If I was the US President, and I wanted to win hearts and minds in China, here's what I'd do. In every single speech where I'm talking about China, I'd make a conspicuous effort to complement Chinese people, Chinese values, and Chinese culture. I'd talk about how my Chinese staffers are the smartest and most hardworking people I've ever worked with (which honestly is probably true). I'd talk about how much my daughter is obsessed with ancient Chinese dresses. I'd talk about how I'm learning Mandarin in my free time, and have a live "Aw shucks" conversation in Mandarin. It's kind of incredible this is a serious suggestion. "Our foreign policy is to punch you in the face, but now we're also going to lie about our enmity to gaslight you, because we think you're that naive and stupid". PRC nationals also not going to buy a word of it when the central narrative is economic / military containment. New gen of patriots/nationalisms doesn't seek western validation anymore. Few in PRC is going to be fooled as long as sanctions / export controls are ongoing and US military bases are around. People not that gullible. There's also the 100,000s of international students and millions of diasphora to report back all the sinophobic shit happening in the west despite honeyed words.