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Another sabotage by Russia or its allies on crucial EU infrastructure. I'm happy to see the Finns searching and stopping them, but we need to be serious about o
by tetrisgm 2y ago
Another sabotage by Russia or its allies on crucial EU infrastructure. I'm happy to see the Finns searching and stopping them, but we need to be serious about our adversary that keeps threatening to nuke major European cities off the map
- throw310822 2y ago[flagged]
- medo-bear 2y ago[flagged]
- Kbelicius 2y agoThere is no logic in your statement. If you are even considering something done by Ukraine to be a starting point of these actions then you would have to consider Russia as the initiator of all of this, since, you know they started the war and are constantly destroying Ukrainian infrastructure. Thus, if you were a man of reason, you either wouldn't written something as stupid or you would have written "After the countless committed by Russia?".
- throw310822 2y agoI was just observing that Ukraine committed a blatant and extremely serious act of sabotage against European infrastructure- most probably with the help of the US. You can't be indignant for one sabotage and ignore the other. Everyone is responsible for their own actions- otherwise you get into an endless spiral of "I did that just because you did the other thing first, so it's ultimately your fault".
- Ninn 2y agoSo if everyone is responsible for their own actions, why are you including Ukraine in this context? After all this is in isolation Russia committing (yet another) crime. You are the one picking and choosing here.
- Kbelicius 2y ago> Everyone is responsible for their own actions- otherwise you get into an endless spiral of "I did that just because you did the other thing first, so it's ultimately your fault". Why are you then mentioning Ukraine in this context if not to send us into this endless spiral?
- woodpanel 2y agoGiven the northstream 2 precedent it is actually the most likely outcome that the same entity / franchise behind ns2 is behind the cable cutting incidents as well.
- immibis 2y ago"two things we're cut, so it's most likely the same people cut both" is not a reasonable assumption without evidence. And we know the Russian ship cut the data cables, so if your assumption was true, it means Russia also cut nordstream. So why bring up Ukraine cutting nordstream? It makes no sense.
- trhway 2y ago>I was just observing that Ukraine committed a blatant and extremely serious act of sabotage against European infrastructure Even if it was Ukraine (it wasn't - read this about Putin friend's tanker https://www.businessinsider.com/nord-stream-mystery-minerva-julie-russia-ukraine-germany-alexander-osint-2023-3 https://www.businessinsider.com/nord-stream-mystery-minerva-... , tankers seem to be the favorite Russian sea-platform for sabotage), the Nord Stream majorly - 51% - owned by Russia thus it would be a valid target for Ukraine. >You can't be indignant for one sabotage and ignore the other. You can and should. There is huge difference between valid targets and invalid ones. By attacking Ukraine Russia made itself into a valid target for Ukraine. Finland and Estonia aren't valid targets for Russia.
- aziaziazi 2y agoI didn’t know about that. I listen French national news radio daily but apparently missed it (!). Googled it and it seems it’s not even controversial. Thanks you to mentionnent it. I’m not trying to troll or putting oil on the fire but I’m quite disappointed it didn’t have more coverage or aftermath analysis like they regularly do for consequences of the war.
- medo-bear 2y ago[flagged]
- victorbjorklund 2y ago[flagged]
- medo-bear 2y agoFrom what I read better than Germanys lol
- rad_gruchalski 2y agoWhere do you read that? Share with us. Don’t be shy.
- medo-bear 2y agoOne is growing another is about to hit recession, you figure which is which
- ben_w 2y agoAnd yet, the German economy is about double the size of the Russian one.
- peterfirefly 2y agoNeither is growing. Russia's economy is in deep shit. Germany's economy has stepped a corner of a shoe in dogshit.
- rad_gruchalski 2y agoHelp me figuring it out by sharing with me what you are reading.
- bjkkkjduid 2y ago[dead]
- somenameforme 2y ago[flagged]
- Zanfa 2y agoRussia has shown time and time again that they respond to appeasement with escalation and are only deterred by decisive actions.
- qaq 2y agoNah let's appease russia as we know so well appeasement leads to deescalation
- pas 2y agoWhat's your proposal?
- somenameforme 2y agoRussia's paranoia of NATO was largely because they were being surrounded by military bases and missiles placed overtly within ranges that would greatly increase the chances/effect of a preemptive strike. Of course we kept expanding because each time Russia claimed something was a redline, they did nothing. Until they did. Though Ukraine is also particularly sensitive for them both from a cultural perspective and a strategic one. Bringing them into NATO was something that they saw as comparable to how the US might see if China or Russia formed a military alliance with Mexico, set up military bases there, and let alone then inevitably deploying nuclear weapons there. Suddenly the rhetoric about countries being free to pick their own alliances would end up as yet another mockery of the "rules based order."* So the solution was simple - don't bring Ukraine into NATO. Hundreds of thousands more Ukrainians would be alive, EU economies would be far stronger, and Russia might even be cooled back into its early trajectories. At one point in time, Putin was even enquiring about Russia joining NATO! This isn't an enemy that we need to have, but we need to be willing to engage in mutual compromise instead of trying to operate as a global hegemon.
- aguaviva 2y ago
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> we need to be serious about our adversary that keeps threatening to nuke major European cities off the map Europe clings to the hope that the rules-based international order that—at this point—everyone is abandoning, can be resuscitated through hopes and prayers. It can’t. We’re back to realpolitik. Russian boats should be subject to boarding and searching when passing by Finnish and adjacent waters; for precedent, they can cite China claiming its sovereign waters include vastly adjacent waters to its own. Russia flirted with Turkish airspace in 2015; Ankara shot it down [1]. Zero further provocations. You can’t appease a bully by lying prostrate. Even if the bully has big guns at home. We aren’t risking nuclear war by drawing clear lines, we’re inviting it by clumsily blurring them. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_shootdown https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Russian_Sukhoi_Su-24_sh...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- immibis 2y ago> Europe clings to the hope that the rules-based international order that—at this point—everyone is abandoning, can be resuscitated through hopes and prayers. It can’t. FWIW this perspective is currently known pejoratively, as "liberalism". As in "conservatives and liberals", not as in "liberty" or "liberal world order" - political labels are weird. Examples of this kind of party are the SPD (Germany), Labour (New Zealand) and the Democrats (USA). Currently, left wing people are trying to make a big deal out of how liberals are (a) not actually left wing, but centrist at best, (b) generally incompetent (which is still preferable to the alternative most people have, mind you) and (c) enable fascism to take over, by attempting to follow the rules all the time, without updating the rules when fascists learn how to exploit them. (Hitler was given power according to the normal process, even though it should have already been obvious to everyone involved that it was a bad idea, because the most important thing is to follow the process, no matter where it leads)
- ETH_start 2y agoEvery authoritarian measure instituted by Eastern Bloc countries was justified by the authorities as a necessary precaution against reactionaries/fascists. The Nazis similarly justified every act of inhumanity as a necessary preventative measure against the takeover of their country by the "Judeo-Bolshevism" of the murderous Soviet regime. The Road to Hell is paved with good intentions.
- kruxigt 2y ago[dead]
- protomolecule 2y ago[flagged]
- absentmoon 2y agoYour comment is definitive but your reference is to a Wikipedia section labelled as "speculation".
- 4gotunameagain 2y agoA reminder that the US president PLEDGED to end Nord stream 2 if Russia invades. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWUuhNd37WI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWUuhNd37WI Additionally, the only ones to gain from such an action would be US & Ukraine. An action that risked the livelihood of millions of supposed "allies". Germany would be in shambles if the winter of 22-23 wasn't as mild as it was.
- lawn 2y ago[flagged]
- rrr_oh_man 2y agoIt might be beneficial for discussion to lay out this argument in a facts-based manner instead of by namecalling.
- ANewFormation 2y ago[flagged]
- medo-bear 2y ago[flagged]
- onemoresoop 2y agoEurope can enter a war without sending any soldiers to fight. All is needed for all european countries to increase their army budgets, and be prepared to defend if needed.
- medo-bear 2y agomate europe (the people living in it) doesnt want a war. most of the eastern countries except those on the north dont want a war and see this very much so as a us provocation
- rcdwealth 2y ago[dead]
- paganel 2y agoMaybe we should stop sending NATO missiles their way via our proxy, Ukraine, maybe at that point nuclear de-escalation will become a thing again. If that doesn’t work, and unfortunately I’m not confident that it will work, then it becomes an open confrontation between us, EU citizens who don’t care one bit about Ukraine and who certainly aren’t willing to die for it, and those EU citizens that are willing to risk conventional and nuclear war with Russia over the likes of Pokrovsk or Kurachove. Which is to say, don’t assume that you people form the uncontested majority here in the EU, just look at the Slovak prime-minister or at the Romanian pro-peace presidential candidate who’s had his election victory stolen from under him (I’m Romanian myself)
- pessimizer 2y agoRussia has to have some option other than killing Ukrainian soldiers and immiserating Ukrainian citizens. Ukrainians are the victims of US and European belligerence, and there is nothing any of them could say or do to end the conflict. Nobody asked their permission to go to war, nobody asks them if they want to continue it, and when they're polled, they hate it. They voted for a Russian-speaking Jewish non-politician actor in order to stay as far away from the US funded Nazi militias and politicians as possible. Turns out that playing a ethical innocent in a TV show doesn't mean you're a ethical innocent. Even when Zelensky's had an attack of ethics, the US administration and media immediately starts to marginalize him and question his authority, which endangers& him. If he doesn't make it to that inevitable London apartment that most Western-backed rulers end up in, he's a dead man. Nothing makes the West happier than the suffering of Ukrainians, because they can use it to market the war to a populace who has absolutely no idea why it happened, or why it's still happening. Everything else Russia could do is too much of an escalation. They could fire a missile at a Polish base if they can connect it to attacks launched on Russia's soil, but that's an open attack against NATO, and even though NATO wouldn't respond with anything other than thoughts and prayers, the funding tap would open up fully again due to the propaganda value. That's crazy when Trump is coming in, and there could possibly be a big swing in US administration support for Ukraine. No chance after that. Trump doesn't want to look submissive to Putin, especially after watching Biden be emasculated by Bibi. It's better to have Trump wanting to show that he's not submissive to Zelensky (as if Zelensky could stop this train.) The best target would have been Americans in Ukraine, which is why after the demonstration of the fact that Russia has missiles that can't be stopped and can reach all of Europe, the US immediately closed its embassy and ran. We'll support Ukrainian attacks with satellite targeting now, we're not worried about Russia firing unstoppable missiles into space. What's left? Immiseration of European citizens to soften their support. What ability does Russia have to do that? They can sabotage cables. The West blew up Nordstream, it's silly to play superior. Nordstream was also* crucial European infrastructure, and its destruction has made the daily lives of Europeans measurably worse. > we need to be serious about our adversary that keeps threatening to nuke major European cities off the map What does this even mean? There's nothing anyone can do about it. Making a serious face won't stop a missile. The only thing protecting European cities is Russian rationality.
- xinayder 2y agoThere was a big raid operation in the Turku archipelago in 2018, where a Russian bought a conveniently located property to spy on military installations of Finland: https://yle.fi/a/3-10431313 https://yle.fi/a/3-10431313 I appreciate that the Finns have the balls to confront the Russians while the rest of Europe just doesn't do much, or let themselves be held hostage by Orban and Fico.
- fi358 2y agoI think it had helicopter pad, a harbor for relatively large ships etc. I think Russia had planned to use it as a place to land troops or "green men" during war as spying could happen without helicopter pad etc.
- mountainstar 2y agoIs European states voting for parties not run by neocon globalists "holding Europe hostage"? "How dare you vote for a leader who doesn't hate Russia?! Don't you care about defending democracy? You have to vote for the leaders we tell you to!"