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Well, yes. Organized human civilizations go back 2000-3000 years. Industrial civilization at scale goes back less than 200. A useful starting point is the Live
by Animats 2y ago
Well, yes.
Organized human civilizations go back 2000-3000 years. Industrial civilization at scale goes back less than 200. A useful starting point is the Liverpool and Manchester Railway (1830). This the moment when the industrial revolution got out of beta, and, quite literally, picked up steam.
Extractable natural resources are somewhat finite. Sometimes, with more inputs, you can get more output. Fracking is a modern example. An older example is taconite, the low-grade iron ore (15% iron) mined after the reserves of high-grade ore (65% iron) were exhausted.[2] Gold and rare earths are extracted at great expense from very low concentrations in the raw material. At some point, extraction in high volume becomes impracticable.
We're only two hundred years into high-volume mined resource extraction.
The USGS has a Critical Materials List.[3] Most of the current problems are political and commercial, not outright shortages. USGS lists known reserves for mined resources. Most have at least a century of known resources left, but not a millennium. On a time scale of civilizations, that's not long.
Recycling is a battle against entropy. Almost all gold is recovered. About 80% of aluminum is recovered. About 60% of steel is recovered. Each time around, you lose some through dispersal into forms not easy to collect and recycle. So that, too, has a diminishing returns problem.
Sometime in the future, perhaps closer than the distance in time since Oxford University was founded, most of the minerals will no longer be available in large quantity. It will be a slow, but difficult transition.
Biological systems, though, mostly keep shuffling around C, H, O, and N. That's been working for over 300 million years now, pretty much recycling the same atoms. Long term, on the scale of millennia, systems running on the weaker bonds in that space can go on for millions of years. That's the default mode of planetary operation.
Energy isn't a long-term problem because forms of energy are convertible, and wind and solar keep working as long as the sun does, at least if there are enough materials left to build generators. That looks like a long-term win on the scale of thousands of years. Millions, though...
It's quite possible that industrial civilizations have a finite lifespan, bounded by material availability. Doesn't mean there can't be sentient civilizations. Or that they're limited to "nature". Biological systems can be engineered, too.
But you don't get interstellar travel out of biology. Too low-powered.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_and_Manchester_Railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_and_Manchester_Railw...
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taconite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taconite
[3] https://www.usgs.gov/news/national-news-release/us-geological-survey-releases-2022-list-critical-minerals https://www.usgs.gov/news/national-news-release/us-geologica...
- zmgsabst 2y agoI largely agree, but a few quibbles: - the Great Pyramid is closer to 4600 years old - we will always have common crust elements, eg 27.7% silicon, 8.1% aluminum, 5% iron, 3.6% calcium, 2.8% sodium, 2.6% potassium, and 2.1% magnesium; so the question is those and biological elements (carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, and oxygen) - you can probably do space travel from that list, which gets you easier to consume versions of those elements as well, eg asteroids - and from there interstellar travel is possible.
- nradov 2y agoWe don't have a reliable age for the Great Pyramid. Since we can't do radiocarbon dating on rocks, all of the estimates are based on somewhat circumstantial evidence. It could be much older, possibly with some more recent maintenance. I'm not claiming any particular age, just that we don't really know.
- romanhn 2y agoWhile we can't radiocarbon date rocks, we can do that with other building material. From Wikipedia: Mortar was used generously in the Great Pyramid's construction. In the mixing process ashes from fires were added to the mortar, organic material that could be extracted and radiocarbon dated. A total of 46 samples of the mortar were taken in 1984 and 1995, making sure they were clearly inherent to the original structure and could not have been incorporated at a later date. The results were calibrated to 2871–2604 BC.
- labster 2y agoCompelling evidence, but if the aliens who built the pyramids brought in mortar from another planet, the isotopic ratios could be totally different. So the date of the pyramids could be anything really if we throw out Occam’s razor and rationality in general.
- exe34 2y agocould you please highlight where you think the poster threw out Occam's razor? Probing the mortar seems to be to be a reasonable proxy for the age of the construction?