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China completes green belt around Taklamakan Desert
- bloopernova 2y agoIt took 46 years to create the 1,900 mile, ~3060 km green belt around the 130,350 square miles (337,600 km2) desert. The linked article doesn't say anything about negatives, but the positives seem to be very beneficial for the area. I really wish other major powers would commit to similar projects. In my opinion, communities need larger goals to strive towards, to provide a sense of continued belonging and reinvestment for the future.
- mdp2021 2y ago> other major powers would commit to similar projects There is African Union's "Great Green Wall (for the Sahara and the Sahel)" initiative, the 8000x15km wall of trees to stop desertification of the Sahel from the Sahara. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(Africa) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(Africa) https://www.sciencenews.org/article/africa-great-green-wall-trees-sahel-climate-change https://www.sciencenews.org/article/africa-great-green-wall-...
- xbmcuser 2y agoThis a good video to show some of what they are doing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbBdIG--b58 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbBdIG--b58
- einpoklum 2y agoNote that if you follow the maps links at the bottom of the video, you'll see that the areas covered are tiny compared to the area necessary. The promotional videos which are presented with government sponsorship and supervision look great, but - is this project actually seriously progressing across the continent?
- andrewflnr 2y ago[flagged]
- abeppu 2y agoI've sometimes wondered whether arid parts of the American Southwest could, through the right kind of permaculture interventions, support more biological carbon sequestration, more plant life, drive development of richer soil etc. But I suspect if you said "we're gonna use this big section of BLM land to incrementally try to keep water in the landscape, and introduce a sequence of plant species that can increase carbon storage and soil cover" the immediate American political response would be "government overreach!" on one side and "what about threatened species X that thrives in the sparse desert?" on the other. And if you did get such a project approved, some elaborate supply chain would arise to provide plant seedlings at 10x the normal price and a consulting firm would be brought in for k million for a plan to administer the project, and the ratio of humans getting paid for the project to acres worked would be inexplicably high.
- dingnuts 2y ago[flagged]
- nullstyle 2y agoLooking at your posting history, you shouldn't be telling others how to spend their time on the internet.
- just_1_comment 2y agoI agree that theres no hope of such a project ever happening in the USA unless it’s on private land, and even then someone is going to object and sue to stop it for some shortsighted and probably selfish reason.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- emptysongglass 2y agoThat's kind of the point of democratic institutions, though: centralizing a lot of these directive powers leads to explosive efficiencies at the cost of liberty to, for example, surface objections as you illustrate. Or, more dramatically, throwing people who object into dark cells. That's how autocratic regimes can take on megaprojects without a lot of the red tape that leads to, for example, a paralytically slow rollout of Seattle light rail. You choose your poison.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> wish other major powers would commit to similar projects American engineering around the Mississippi River is massive. As is our hydroelectric engineering, and reclamation of urban and farm land. We don’t really have a lot of fucked territory that needs to be terraformed.
- maxglute 2y agoIMO Missippi shipping good example of lack of commitment. Low water levels already curtailing barge activity. It's a massive effort, but not really sufficient.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> not really sufficient Our barge use is crippled by the Jones Act, not water levels. Make it lucrative to ship by barge and the incentives will get the levels back up.
- maxglute 2y agoMaking shipping lucrative (which US should) can further increase utilization. Issue with Missippi traffic is existing shipping, i.e. those that operate under Jones, are already crippled by reduced water levels as result of heat/drought/climate change. So it's a water level issue, which translates infra commitment issue... not unlike the green belt. Climate change means you have to invest more just to stand still. E: Like don't get me wrong, internal waterways is a geographic blessing for US, but it also always required enormous/expensive (army) engineering efforts to keep it viable for modern operations (larger barges etc). It's one of those case where terraforming/technology has outstripped natural capacity, but it's possible to augment geography to facilitate more technology, but right now augmentation efforts are not sufficient, not just to improve through put, but to maintain it, because geography can decline.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> it's a water level issue, which translates infra commitment issue The point is with the Jones Act there isn't much value in barges. So other uses of the water are prioritised. Adding water doesn't have an ROI commensurate with alternative uses.
- seanmcdirmid 2y agoSome stories I heard while living in China. A couple of decades ago farmers in china’s arid regions used to be tasked with planting trees, they would plant them upside down because they knew they didn’t have enough water to feed the trees and their crops. The Gobi was planted with trees a few times to reduce dust storms, but it takes a lot more than just planting trees, so the dust storms would always invariably return as the trees died out. There also used to be a graduation requirement that all students plant trees to graduate, they had farms dedicated to this, and they would dig out the trees planted by the last class so the next class could re-plant them. I have no idea how effective today’s efforts are compared to efforts of the past. They could have solved the water problem with irrigation or are using more drought resistant trees. It could be that the green belt is going to stick around this time, if the experience is different from the Gobi experience somehow.
- otikik 2y ago> they would plant them upside down That makes no sense. It takes more effort to plant a tree upside down and not irrigating it than it takes to plant it the regular way and not irrigating it.
- wqnt 2y agoMaybe if the trees are planted correctly and are still alive, the government would requires the farmers to water them or face punishment, leaving no water for the crops.
- seanmcdirmid 2y agoThey didn’t want the trees to suck up limited water, but wanted to still say they planted the trees. My guess is that ground water and run off was involved, they weren’t going to irrigate it either way because they couldn’t.
- enraged_camel 2y agoOne of the reasons for the decline of the Ottoman Empire was that sultans spent precious labor and resources on grand projects like this, for example around the Arabian peninsula as well as the Sahara. This ended up contributing to the bankrupting of the empire, which required them to take heftier and heftier loans from Europe and Russia.
- vondur 2y agoThe Ottomans taking loans from the Russians, their traditional enemy, seems odd. I know they were reluctant allies when fighting Napoleon, but I've never heard of such a financial arrangement.
- mlinksva 2y agoI'd enjoy reading if you have any pointers to such projects. Not coming up with any from web search and asking a LLM. Closest might be the Hijaz Railway and maintaining a large military presence in desert regions.
- SapporoChris 2y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire#Decline_and_modernisation_(1828%E2%80%931908) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire#Decline_and_mod... "As the Ottoman state attempted to modernize its infrastructure and army in response to outside threats, it opened itself up to a different kind of threat: that of creditors." That's the closest thing I found related.
- timoth3y 2y agoThe US "Shelterbelt" project in the 1930s in response to the dustbowl was of a similar vein. It involved planting over 220 million trees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plains_Shelterbelt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Plains_Shelterbelt
- toss1 2y agoIt is being done in Africa, a 4000-mile wall south of the world's largest desert, the Sahara, called the Great Green Wall. Some references below. Pretty amazing stuff. [0] https://www.bbcearth.com/news/five-ways-the-great-green-wall-is-helping-to-reforest-the-sahel-region https://www.bbcearth.com/news/five-ways-the-great-green-wall... [1] https://sequoiares.org/research/posts/The-Great-Green-Wall https://sequoiares.org/research/posts/The-Great-Green-Wall [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(Africa) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(Africa)
- SapporoChris 2y agoRisk of Collapse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(Africa)#Risk_of_collapse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(Africa)#Risk... Monitoring (or lack of) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(Africa)#Monitoring https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(Africa)#Moni... That is amazing.
- cleanerbob 2y ago[dead]
- renewiltord 2y ago[flagged]
- yazzku 2y agoUnlike when God slaughtered several million bison, right? https://allthatsinteresting.com/buffalo-slaughter https://allthatsinteresting.com/buffalo-slaughter
- renewiltord 2y agoThat’s the second clause. Anything after 50 years ago interferes with the environment. Even returning things to before that time interferes with the environment. That’s the cutoff date I’m afraid.
- yazzku 2y agoAh, right, the 50-year cut-off makes a lot of sense, circa Exxon Mobil deciding to engage in the largest terraforming experiment done on Earth for profit despite its own knowledge of the consequences. That makes total sense; God created Exxon Mobil, and anything we do to challenge it is interfering with God's fine handiwork. Let me prepare the school curricula for next calendar year.
- renewiltord 2y agoNEPA was passed about then and most people would prefer it stay, so yeah, it makes sense. It’s why we don’t have environmental review for I-5 but we do for new bike lanes. I-5 was already decided in the 1960s so the construction was okay. But bike lanes are today and need extensive environmental review, as any environmentalist will tell you.
- coryrc 2y agoI'm sorry people don't get your comment. Maybe people aren't aware of the consequences of laws locking in car-based infrastructure.
- jmyeet 2y agoChina may well have replaced the USSR as the latest bogeyman to keep attention away from whatever war crimes the US is currently supporting or committing, but all I can think about is the ~$10T spent on and millions of lives lost to the "War on Terror" and what could've been done with the money instead. I mean just look at the high speed rail transformation in 16 years [1]. China is not without its issues but neither is the US government and at least China is investing in long-term infrastructure for their people. Chinese foreign policy is also considerably less damaging than American foreign policy. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/xszhbm/chinese_highspeed_railway_map_2008_vs_2020/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/xszhbm/chinese_hig...
- baserev 2y agoChina has built 30,000 miles of high speed rails it doesn't need [1], going into $1 trillion of debt and other liabilities. Just keeping up with its debt requires $25 billion annually. Incidentally, Chinese local governments are now $11 trillion in debt [2], with all provinces except Shanghai in 2023 being positive on revenues. And now there are around 4000 ghost railway stations [3] [1]: https://www.wsj.com/world/china/xi-high-speed-trains-china-3ef4d7f0# https://www.wsj.com/world/china/xi-high-speed-trains-china-3... [2]: https://www.wsj.com/world/china/china-economy-debt-borrowing-33f08b5e https://www.wsj.com/world/china/china-economy-debt-borrowing... [3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhclmurNUuw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhclmurNUuw
- BadHumans 2y agoWhat does this have to do with anything?
- jddj 2y agoIs 25B in interest expenses extreme here? Edit: oh just for the rail costs
- Etherlord87 2y agojmyeet mentioned building rails, and baserev makes a counterargument, that it isn't necessarily a good "investment".
- skybrian 2y agoI wonder whether this is working, as far as preventing desertification goes. The project has critics. It might just the state declaring victory? Edit: apparently it’s controversial. Will China’s “green Great Wall” save it from encroaching sands? https://www.economist.com/china/2024/12/05/will-chinas-green-great-wall-save-it-from-encroaching-sands https://www.economist.com/china/2024/12/05/will-chinas-green... https://archive.is/FVimm https://archive.is/FVimm
- nyclounge 2y agoThat is probably why China is doing weather modification: https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/03/asia/china-weather-modification-cloud-seeding-intl-hnk/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/03/asia/china-weather-modificati... However people in India may have something concerns: https://www.downtoearth.org.in/science-technology/-weather-modifications-by-china-need-more-discussions-on-its-ethics--83771 https://www.downtoearth.org.in/science-technology/-weather-m... Yeah we are like kids playing match sticks!!! Just because we can, we shouldn't just do it!
- maxglute 2y agoSandstorm days in BJ went from ~30s per year in 50s to single digits post 2000s. It's working, but sandstorm days also picking back up due to climate change (also increasing floods and other enviroment disasters), so more accurately to suggest it's mitigating.
- mnau 2y agoEvery project has critics, but it is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. See the man, the wife, the donkey, and the critics. Yes, it's possible it will not deliver, but this seems to be classic way to combat desertification. Africa uses similar approach for Sahara.
- philosopher1234 2y agoMeanwhile the US uses it surpluses of wealth to do… what? Optimize ad sales to 16 year olds and fund genocide in Gaza?
- baserev 2y agoSupport Ukraine against invasion from Russia. Support Taiwan against invasion from China. Investing in reusable rockets, pushing humanity out into space. Supporting new technologies like augmented reality, AI, satellite internet, self driving.
- devinrf 2y agoKeep in mind China puts their money in these things too! Except they're on the opposite side and maybe spend a bit less on the military
- gmuslera 2y agoDon't forget bailing out banks that fueled bubbles. With the money that went into that we could had by now a the Sahara rainforest.
- pmalynin 2y agoHave you actually looked into "bailing out banks" (which is called Troubled Asset Relief Program), because if you have you would have learned that the US Government actually made ~$15 billion in profit after selling off the toxic assets 6 years later. Not to mention the money the government made thru preferred stock repurchase by corporations and other things (interest etc) the US Treasury booked a total profit of ~$121 billion. Sorry for calling you out but I'm just very tired of purely emotional responses to this topic because people actually just refuse to go thru the facts of how events transpired and their consequences. EDIT: You can see this for yourself from ProPublica https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/ https://projects.propublica.org/bailout/
- youngtaff 2y ago
- soneca 2y ago> ”The initiative combines solar-powered sand-blocking technology with extensive vegetation planting to stabilize the desert’s edges.” What sand-blocking tech is that? Does anyone know?
- zhaohan_dong 2y agoI think they put solar panels up and plant some bushes under the shade
- photochemsyn 2y agoThey might be referring to dependence on solar-powered water pumps to irrigate the green belt, or the use of a field of solar panels with vegetation underneath to break up wind-driven sand migration. Another source discusses the construction of meter-high earthen walls, though its unclear how widely that was done. They're planning on building more solar and wind there, and China's UHV (ultra-high-voltage) grid will allow that power to be shipped east to where demand is highest: https://interestingengineering.com/energy/chinas-largest-desert-green-belt-completed https://interestingengineering.com/energy/chinas-largest-des... > "Further energy development is underway in the Taklamakan Desert. The China Three Gorges Corporation plans to build a massive energy project featuring 8.5 gigawatts of solar power and 4 gigawatts of wind energy, expected to be completed in four years."
- RaftPeople 2y agoI'm not sure if it applies here but I read an article about similar efforts in Africa and their technique was shaping the sand into little hills and then adding the vegetation to retain the little hill which reduced the flow of sand shifting due to wind.
- asdf123qweasd 2y agoShouldn't you be able to see that on sattelit pictures?
- mnau 2y agoIt's visible. Start at Taklamakan Desert Highway and go along it. TBH, I would like to know how much water it take to grow trees around the highway through middle of desert, but that is for another topic.
- maxglute 2y agoThey use drought resistant / low water plants, bunch of retainment strategies (membranes, local rainfall water storage). IIRC still need to truck/pipeline/drip irrigate some water when plants initially growing (more water hungry), but the goal is to pick right plants that can survive on local conditions.
- mnau 2y agoYeah, I have read a lot about the plants, Populus Euphratica, and a lot of others, but it still... There just isn't enough rainfall. Annual average precipitation in the Taklimakan Desert is less than 100 millimeters. With drip irrigation, they can probably keep at it at reasonable expense, but that place is horrid. Just look at it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuylRKAK1Tc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuylRKAK1Tc
- maxglute 2y agoIIRC ~40% is in arid regions, rest in semi arid or better regions. I think in arid regions they'd prioritized desert margins with 100-200 mm rain. <100mm is extreme arid zones, i.e. central Takilmakan. I'm not sure if they'd even bother with that.
- asdf123qweasd 2y agoThis is a video by the government, not a independent news source?
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago[flagged]
- DanTheManPR 2y agoIs Chinese high speed rail infrastructure really substandard or lacking maintenance as you claim?
- blackeyeblitzar 2y agoYes, look up videos of recurring vibration issues. It has become bad because international suppliers cut them off due to geopolitical concerns. There is lots of censorship locally in China on this and similar topics like construction problems with property. But some of it has leaked out anyways. It’s very different from when HSR first launched there.
- ilamont 2y agoI've been to Turpan and the Tarim Basin area, which is on the northeast edge of the desert. It's the only place I've witnessed a sandstorm, and it's very hot ... local people told me not to leave rented bikes parked in sunlight as the tires were at risk of bursting. Many centuries ago, local Uyghur people developed ingenious mechanisms to channel snowmelt from the northern mountains for irrigation ... basically covered stone channels that stretch for thousands of miles and enable crops like grapes and melons to be grown. In Turpan itself, grape trellises are grown over many sidewalks which cools pedestrians and looks quite nice.
- mlinksva 2y agoVery interesting topic but the article strikes me as being blogspam adjacent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(China) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Green_Wall_(China) cites https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-completes-3-000-km-112549261.html https://www.yahoo.com/news/china-completes-3-000-km-11254926... which is one of many press articles that only cites (but does not link) state media. The Economist has paywalled writeup https://www.economist.com/china/2024/12/05/will-chinas-green-great-wall-save-it-from-encroaching-sands https://www.economist.com/china/2024/12/05/will-chinas-green... that is a bit skeptical of the project's impact (unlinked claims at least half due to increased rain, not human efforts) and sustainability (also unlinked, but I'd guess correct, it seems somewhat similar projects such as the great plains shelterbelt in the US decline unless maintained). Surely there must be an afforestation/macro ecological engineering geek out there who has blogged on this in depth, would love to read it!
- hnmullany 2y agoVegetation-type is determined by temperature and precipitation. You can't un-desertify a true desert unless you irrigate. Most of these projects that "succeed" - miraculously correlate with good rainfall experience. Most of the Sahel revegetated all by itself, when the decadal drought ended in the 90's. Re-vegetation projects can help put vegetation back when it's been removed by shitty management practises like severe over-grazing. It can also help speed revegetation if there are no nearby seed sources and dispersion speeds for those species are low. But dry-adapted vegetation seeds can usually persist for very long periods of time waiting for water.
- mlinksva 2y ago> unless you irrigate One of the reasons for the interestingness of speculative proposals like Qattara, seawater-for-Salton, and it turns out an even more ambitious project to pump seawater from the Bohai Sea to Xinjiang.
- 6510 2y agoThe west should help fund this and we should hint at other sand hills in the world to do the same.
- ashoeafoot 2y agoIm sure the reality on the ground will be less disappointing with these than it was with the claims of russian aemy to be the 2nd mighty in the world. Those autoritarians would never lie to us.