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Is the sound part real? What frequencies are used to communicate stress? Is this in range of anything I could connect to a raspberry pico or arduino? My flowers

Is the sound part real? What frequencies are used to communicate stress? Is this in range of anything I could connect to a raspberry pico or arduino? My flowers desperately need answers :D

copperx 2y ago
If I remember correctly, the frequency is ultrasonic. I'm not having much luck with Google.
- eurekin 2y ago
  Guessing that a ultrasonic microphone from a bioaccoustics site should fit the bill - otherwise, what could researchers pick themselves? This one, for example, picks up to 200kHz for €1050: https://avisoft.com/ultrasound-microphones/cm24-cmpa/ https://avisoft.com/ultrasound-microphones/cm24-cmpa/
  - copperx 2y ago
    It should be on the materials & methods section of the papers. I hope it doesn't go all the way to 200khz. Consumer audio can go up to a 192kHz sampling rate, which can't even record 100 kHz sounds. It seems the equipment will be costly.
    - prewett 2y ago
      > Consumer audio can go up to a 192kHz sampling rate, which can't even record 100 kHz sounds. That's probably because the Nyquist frequency (the maximum frequency that can theoretically be reproduced) is 96 kHZ at 192 kHz sampling, but the aliasing for that frequency is going to so terrible and unpredictable (what is the likelihood that always sample the max point in the sine wave) that you wouldn't consider anything close to the Nyquist frequency. You might get something workable for 20 kHz (~10 samples per cycle), which is the edge of human hearing, so that quiet overtones / high frequencies in percussion like cymbals show up. If this is getting used to identify problems based on sound signature, not just "hey, the FFT shows a spike at 100 kHz", 10 samples is probably a bit low. So 1 MHz sampling rate at a minimum for 100 kHz.
      - copperx 2y ago
        Interesting. Is DSD more viable for these kinds of recordings?
doublerabbit 2y ago
There was research done, that annoys me I can't find the bookmark. But you can measure communication using fungi as the access point. It's known that fungi can act as a trading point for plants in that lend some, borrow some when plants are in need. If you hook fungi to a device you can measure communication. "Trees can communicate with each other through networks in soil. Much like social networks or neural networks, the fungal mycelia of mycorrhizas allow signals to be sent between trees in a forest. These mycorrhizal networks are effectively an information highway, with recent studies demonstrating the exchange of nutritional resources, defence signals and allelochemicals. Sensing and responding to networked signals elicits complex behavioural responses in plants. This ability to communicate ('tree talk') is a foundational process in forest ecosystems." https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4497361/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4497361/ And would highly recommend this book: https://www.merlinsheldrake.com/entangled-life https://www.merlinsheldrake.com/entangled-life
- vlz 2y ago
  > effectively an information highway > exchange of nutritional resources, defence signals and allelochemicals Only one of these three things qualifies as "information" in my book (defence signals). How is this an "information highway"?
  - doublerabbit 2y ago
    Regardless if it's just one piece of information, defence signals; If fungi are connected to a web of plants, trees with communication transversing bi-directionally then it would be very valid to call it an highway of information. But fungi do more than that. They transfer energy and life resources along the network too. Just as a highway carries cargo. It's just a metaphor.
littlebig_fox 2y ago
Hi, This is real! We started our startup based on this principle. Do note that these emissions do not occur often, think about up to 10-100 per hours in stress states. For a small background read, read this (not our research): https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(23)00262-3 https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(23)00262-3 If you are interested I recommend using a MEMS microphone, sampling at 384 or 500 kHz and triggering at frequencies between 20-200 kHz. There is several people who have made these solutions for detecting bats using pico's: https://www.geeky-gadgets.com/raspberry-pi-bat-detector-17-07-2023/ https://www.geeky-gadgets.com/raspberry-pi-bat-detector-17-0... If you want something off the shelf look into something like this: https://batsound.com/ https://batsound.com/
- eurekin 2y ago
  That's perfect, thank you!
- JadeNB 2y ago
  > Do note that these emissions do not occur often, think about up to 10-100 per hours in stress states. I think I must be misreading. If one wants to detect these signals being emitted by plants, why is 10–100 per hour not often? I'd think that having to wait 6 minutes, or, to play it safe, even an hour would still be way more informative than finding out about the stress only when its effects were visible to the eye.
addicted 2y ago
They are not “communicating” stress. There’s no active action by the plants. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/30/science/plant-sounds-stress.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/30/science/plant-sounds-stre... > To be clear, the sounds made by harried plants are not the same as the anxious mumbling you might utter if you have a big deadline at work. The researchers suspect the nervous, popping noise is instead a byproduct of cavitation, when tiny bubbles burst and produce mini-shock waves inside the plant’s vascular system, not unlike what happens in your joints when you crack your knuckles. It’s the equivalent of stepping on a twig and knowing how dry it was based on the sound of the snap it makes.
- nradov 2y ago
  There are active communications between plants. https://www.kariega.co.za/blog/do-giraffe-make-trees-talk-to-each-other https://www.kariega.co.za/blog/do-giraffe-make-trees-talk-to...
  - refulgentis 2y ago
    As much as me farting and you moving away is active communication. It's cute, I like it, I'd tell my kid it. But I don't think active communication is a useful way to describe every single process where one's action causes another's reaction.
    - soulofmischief 2y ago
      Any exchange of information between two systems is communication.
      - nis0s 2y ago
        Not exactly, the conscious intent of communicating is important too. For example, someone in a coma may react reflexively, but they’re not communicating per se.
        2y ago

Is the sound part real? What frequencies are used to communicate stress? Is this in range of anything I could connect to a raspberry pico or arduino? My flowers desperately need answers :D

copperx 2y ago

If I remember correctly, the frequency is ultrasonic. I'm not having much luck with Google.

eurekin 2y ago
Guessing that a ultrasonic microphone from a bioaccoustics site should fit the bill - otherwise, what could researchers pick themselves? This one, for example, picks up to 200kHz for €1050: https://avisoft.com/ultrasound-microphones/cm24-cmpa/ https://avisoft.com/ultrasound-microphones/cm24-cmpa/
- copperx 2y ago
  It should be on the materials & methods section of the papers. I hope it doesn't go all the way to 200khz. Consumer audio can go up to a 192kHz sampling rate, which can't even record 100 kHz sounds. It seems the equipment will be costly.
  - prewett 2y ago
    > Consumer audio can go up to a 192kHz sampling rate, which can't even record 100 kHz sounds. That's probably because the Nyquist frequency (the maximum frequency that can theoretically be reproduced) is 96 kHZ at 192 kHz sampling, but the aliasing for that frequency is going to so terrible and unpredictable (what is the likelihood that always sample the max point in the sine wave) that you wouldn't consider anything close to the Nyquist frequency. You might get something workable for 20 kHz (~10 samples per cycle), which is the edge of human hearing, so that quiet overtones / high frequencies in percussion like cymbals show up. If this is getting used to identify problems based on sound signature, not just "hey, the FFT shows a spike at 100 kHz", 10 samples is probably a bit low. So 1 MHz sampling rate at a minimum for 100 kHz.
    - copperx 2y ago
      Interesting. Is DSD more viable for these kinds of recordings?

doublerabbit 2y ago

There was research done, that annoys me I can't find the bookmark. But you can measure communication using fungi as the access point. It's known that fungi can act as a trading point for plants in that lend some, borrow some when plants are in need. If you hook fungi to a device you can measure communication. "Trees can communicate with each other through networks in soil. Much like social networks or neural networks, the fungal mycelia of mycorrhizas allow signals to be sent between trees in a forest. These mycorrhizal networks are effectively an information highway, with recent studies demonstrating the exchange of nutritional resources, defence signals and allelochemicals. Sensing and responding to networked signals elicits complex behavioural responses in plants. This ability to communicate ('tree talk') is a foundational process in forest ecosystems." https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4497361/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4497361/ And would highly recommend this book: https://www.merlinsheldrake.com/entangled-life https://www.merlinsheldrake.com/entangled-life

vlz 2y ago
> effectively an information highway > exchange of nutritional resources, defence signals and allelochemicals Only one of these three things qualifies as "information" in my book (defence signals). How is this an "information highway"?
- doublerabbit 2y ago
  Regardless if it's just one piece of information, defence signals; If fungi are connected to a web of plants, trees with communication transversing bi-directionally then it would be very valid to call it an highway of information. But fungi do more than that. They transfer energy and life resources along the network too. Just as a highway carries cargo. It's just a metaphor.

littlebig_fox 2y ago

Hi, This is real! We started our startup based on this principle. Do note that these emissions do not occur often, think about up to 10-100 per hours in stress states. For a small background read, read this (not our research): https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(23)00262-3 https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(23)00262-3 If you are interested I recommend using a MEMS microphone, sampling at 384 or 500 kHz and triggering at frequencies between 20-200 kHz. There is several people who have made these solutions for detecting bats using pico's: https://www.geeky-gadgets.com/raspberry-pi-bat-detector-17-07-2023/ https://www.geeky-gadgets.com/raspberry-pi-bat-detector-17-0... If you want something off the shelf look into something like this: https://batsound.com/ https://batsound.com/

eurekin 2y ago
That's perfect, thank you!
JadeNB 2y ago
> Do note that these emissions do not occur often, think about up to 10-100 per hours in stress states. I think I must be misreading. If one wants to detect these signals being emitted by plants, why is 10–100 per hour not often? I'd think that having to wait 6 minutes, or, to play it safe, even an hour would still be way more informative than finding out about the stress only when its effects were visible to the eye.

addicted 2y ago

They are not “communicating” stress. There’s no active action by the plants. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/30/science/plant-sounds-stress.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/30/science/plant-sounds-stre... > To be clear, the sounds made by harried plants are not the same as the anxious mumbling you might utter if you have a big deadline at work. The researchers suspect the nervous, popping noise is instead a byproduct of cavitation, when tiny bubbles burst and produce mini-shock waves inside the plant’s vascular system, not unlike what happens in your joints when you crack your knuckles. It’s the equivalent of stepping on a twig and knowing how dry it was based on the sound of the snap it makes.

nradov 2y ago
There are active communications between plants. https://www.kariega.co.za/blog/do-giraffe-make-trees-talk-to-each-other https://www.kariega.co.za/blog/do-giraffe-make-trees-talk-to...
- refulgentis 2y ago
  As much as me farting and you moving away is active communication. It's cute, I like it, I'd tell my kid it. But I don't think active communication is a useful way to describe every single process where one's action causes another's reaction.
  - soulofmischief 2y ago
    Any exchange of information between two systems is communication.
    - nis0s 2y ago
      Not exactly, the conscious intent of communicating is important too. For example, someone in a coma may react reflexively, but they’re not communicating per se.
      - 2y ago