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As a Hetzner bandwidth enjoyer affected by this, this is why (HN cough) multi-cloud/dedi k3s is great, because if you get rug pulled you just migrate to another

• princevegeta89 2y ago
  As someone who's already using the dedicated server for a ton of things, I have been really grateful. But now, I have a new question, are they going to do this to their dedicated servers as well?
  • dantillberg 2y ago
    This change only affects VPS services in the US, and for what it's worth, Hetzner does not offer dedicated servers in the US.
  • consumer451 2y ago
    I am very ignorant here, so my apologies, but... When someone runs a dedicated server these days, does this mean a one-off linux install? Or is this more likely to be a docker install so that it's portable?
    • fabian2k 2y ago
      For Hetzner you rent actual physical servers. There is nothing virtualized there, it's real hardware without abstractions.
      • consumer451 2y ago
        Thanks, I guess what I meant to ask is that is it normal for people to virtualize their own dedicated server these days by default? Would this be a best practice to avoid hosting vendor lock-in?
        • Filligree 2y ago
          There's no lock-in possible. It's a bare metal Linux machine, you do whatever you want with it; you can replace it with the PC under you desk if you want. If you want to run k3s, k8s or docker, you can, but personally I find those too complicated. NixOS is much easier to deal with, and achieves the same result.
        • conradfr 2y ago
          Sure, I use CapRover on mine.
    • ajb 2y ago
      Replying here as your other question is at max thread depth: A non virtualized Linux install isn't more locked in than a docker install, as for a bare metal server you are choosing your own OS. I have done the docker thing on a bare metal server, but that's because I wanted to run multiple services on it and isolate them operationally.
      • consumer451 2y ago
        > A non virtualized Linux install isn't more locked in than a docker install Again, sorry for my ignorance here, but if not virtualized, how does one move hosting providers otherwise? My experience is limited to either running all the bash commands in an install readme, or installing a docker image. So there must be something in-between, to recreate a linux install elsewhere? > Replying here as your other question is at max thread depth: btw, you can click on the time of the post, and reply there when there is no reply link in the main thread.
        • andai 2y ago
          Isn't a Docker image an OS image and a bunch of shell commands?
        • thrw42A8N 2y ago
          Talos Linux, Flatcar Container linux...
        • lupire 2y ago
          You can use a configuration manager like Puppet. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppet_(software) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puppet_(software)
        • ajb 2y ago
          >So there must be something in-between, to recreate a linux install elsewhere? There's a class of tools like chef, ansible, puppet. Or you can just package your services into debs and run a Debian repo to install them from, same as the base OS Possibly there's something closer to dockerfiles out there by now as well >btw, you can click on the time of the post, and reply there when there is no reply link in the main thread. Cool, thanks! Makes me puzzled about the point of concealing the reply links, I guess it just adds a bit of friction?
    • princevegeta89 2y ago
      It's an actual entire machine given to you. I remember there were a few options for me from Ubuntu, Debian to Red Hat to choose from, but all of them would also have preconfigured system users and some level of administration done by the provider. But other than that, it's an actual bare metal machine and I installed Ubuntu on it and threw in a giant heap of services that have been running on it for more than a year now.
      • consumer451 2y ago
        If you could rewind the clock, would you have started setting it up any differently, like in a container? I am just curious what your options would be now if you wanted to migrate. Would you just copy your bash history to a local text file for reference, and then repeat the steps on a new server?
        • sneak 2y ago
          Generally even in containerized deployments, you run one container per service/process. You wouldn't run everything you’d run on one box in one container. I definitely recommend using docker compose or similar even in a one node deployment versus just installing and running things on the host linux system like it’s still 1998. Having a single directory to back up and a single file defining all of the services that can easily be redeployed is very convenient.
          • RandomThoughts3 2y ago
            The performance impact seems completely unjustified for most of the things people do with a personal machine however.
            • consumer451 2y ago
              What is the performance impact? Going one page into Google results, I found this paper. Is there a better reference? > At light workload levels, the native host performs better than Docker. However, as the workload increases, both Docker and the native host show similar performance, with the difference getting smaller https://www.researchgate.net/publication/376557310_Comparative_Analysis_of_Apache_2_Performance_in_Docker_Containers_vs_Native_Environment https://www.researchgate.net/publication/376557310_Comparati...
    • BrutalCoding 2y ago
      Yeah, it's a one-off install. In my case, I did Proxmox[1] for a while with VM's and LXC's, with some of my VM's and unprivileged LXC's running Docker (compose) too because it made the installation of said software easier. It's great, but I'm moving over to switch to Debian with Incus[2] instead of Proxmox. Just for fun mostly. [1] https://www.proxmox.com/en/ https://www.proxmox.com/en/ [2] https://linuxcontainers.org/incus/introduction/ https://linuxcontainers.org/incus/introduction/
• ndjdjddjsjj 2y ago
  It does feel like a case of the Costco hotdog going up to $2 followed by "grrrr. Thats it! I'm..... going to keep buying it because it is still damn cheap!"
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  • 8n4vidtmkvmk 2y ago
    Wait what? Did they actually raise the hotdog price? I never buy the hotdog but a price raise is indicative of bad times to come.
    • kadoban 2y ago
      Costco hotdogs have been underpriced for decades. It's an intentional choice, a loss leader. It raising would be mostly meaningless. But no, last I looked a week ago or so it was still the same price.
      • Aurornis 2y ago
        It’s a warmed hot dog, a bun, some self-serve condiments, and it’s served by people who can do hundreds of them an hour. $1.50 might very well cover the cost, but even if it’s a loss leader then it’s entirely negligible. The mythology around the hot dog price makes people think they’re getting a screaming deal, though. It’s perfect marketing material.
      • gamblor956 2y ago
        It's not a loss leader. They still make a profit on the combo because the ingredients are cheap and it takes almost no labor to prepare on a per-dog basis. And 1.50 is cheap now but was relatively expensive when the combo launched in 1985 (for comparison, a Big Mac combo with fries and a drink was 2.59, a KFC combo was around $3).
  • BrutalCoding 2y ago
    I remember reading something about the Costco hot dog story, quite funny IMO, here's what I just found from 2018: "I came to (Jim Sinegal) once and I said, ‘Jim, we can’t sell this hot dog for a buck fifty. We are losing our rear ends.’ And he said, ‘If you raise the effing hot dog, I will kill you. Figure it out.’ That’s all I really needed. By the way, if you raised (the price) to $1.75, it would not be that big of a deal. People would still buy (it). But it’s the mindset that when you think of Costco, you think of the $1.50 hot dog (and soda)." [1]. Turns out Costco has a new CEO this year, and again the hot dog topic came to light apparently, lol. This article is from 2024: "'To clear up some recent media speculation, I also want to confirm the $1.50 hot dog price is safe,' Millerchip said." [2]. Sources: [1] https://www.425business.com/news/costco-ceo-craig-jelinek-on-shareholders-costco-com-and-hot-dogs/article_5ff4b632-1f75-5e98-b9ff-6e02d676668b.html https://www.425business.com/news/costco-ceo-craig-jelinek-on... [2] https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/shopping/2024/05/31/costco-earnings-call-hot-dogs/73921996007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/shopping/2024/05/31/cos...
• fastily 2y ago
  I use OVH (VPS’s specifically), which offers unlimited bandwidth. In my experience they’ve been both reliable and affordable which is a rarity. I run a few applications that require high amounts of bandwidth, so silly caps like the ones that Hetzner are imposing are a non-starter for me
  • tokinonagare 2y ago
    I've only ever been on OVH and was surprised to discover a few years ago that bandwidth is not only unlimited but also costly at most other hosting companies (including cloud ones).
  • silisili 2y ago
    OVH is the most set and forget experience I've ever had. They email me maintenance notices 3 or 4x a year, but I don't think I've ever had any downtime. It just stays happily humming along for years. I think I pay something like 60 a year for it.
  • markvdb 2y ago
    OVH and reliable, in the same sentence? They're cheap, so suitable for projects you don't mind going poof. Personal anecdote. A few years ago, I lost a lot of sleep on a domain renewal at OVH. Their incompetence was mind-boggling. A less common tld was the only slightly challenging bit. After a week of calling and emailing, and on the verge of the domain lapsing, I gave up and sent someone to the tld registry with cash. Also, do search for OVH SBG2 should you have missed that.
    • tyingq 2y ago
      They can be terrible. But it is dirt cheap. So if you use their stuff in a way that you can recover somewhere else if they have issues, you save a lot. As you mentioned I would stay away from them for things like domain hosting. Just use them for cheap compute, etc.
      • rapind 2y ago
        Would you recommend vultr for dedicated metal? I’m lazily shopping around for a decent dedicated metal setup, but I need something reasonably reliable.
• api 2y ago
  DataPacket, ReliableSite, HiVelocity, and FDCServers among others have great bandwidth prices.
  • jdhendrickson 2y ago
    Can vouch for HiVelocity under the previous owners anyway, not sure what's going on over there now. My companies launch was bandwidth and compute intensive and they handled it well.
• 9cb14c1ec0 2y ago
  Shout-out to Microtronixdc, my colocation provider. For their $55/month/U colocation package, they provide unmetered gigabit for no additional cost. https://microtronixdc.com/ https://microtronixdc.com/
  • Aachen 2y ago
    I see terms for hosting and domain registration and managed databases, but not colocation. Do you know if they really not care if you actually use that connection to the stated allowance?
    • 9cb14c1ec0 2y ago
      https://microtronixdc.com/products/colocation https://microtronixdc.com/products/colocation Their big selling point is that they truly provide unmetered connections.
      • jfreak53 2y ago
        Yep, we do!! :)
    • shlomo_z 2y ago
      Bandwidth for these providers is super cheap. The main cost is power consumption.
      • jfreak53 2y ago
        This is true, power is our largest expense.
  • mrbluecoat 2y ago
    Their option to colocate a Raspberry Pi (or similar form factor) for $5/month is also interesting as a VPN exit node.
    • diggan 2y ago
• andix 2y ago
  Is it an option for you to just move the servers to one of Hetzner's Europe location? I guess a lot of high bandwidth applications don't require low latency.
• S0y 2y ago
  >multi-cloud/dedi k3s is great As someone with the exact same setup, thank you for strengthening my confirmation bias.
• arcastroe 2y ago
  Exactly! I had a three node k3s cluster hosted on OVH. When I decided to switch to Contabo, it was as easy as adding the three Contabo nodes to the cluster, and then removing the three OVH nodes (plus updating some DNS rules). It was the easiest and simplest migration I'd ever done. All my services and data just moved automatically and mostly with zero downtime. The only service that experienced a little downtime was Plex, which as I understand does not support high availability. If I ever find a cheaper host, I'll simply switch over. No hassle and no vendor lock in.
  • lysp 2y ago
    This is what I also want to do. How are you handling storage? That is the only issue I'm struggling with for a small 3-node deployment.
    • arend321 2y ago
      That's indeed the pain point. Distributing a stateless app is relatively easy. Distributing the shared file system and database over a remote, higher latency, cross-cloud setup is hard.
    • WildGreenLeave 2y ago
      I run everything on Longhorn, including databases. Not the highest iops but definitely worth the hit for the easy of migrating.
    • arcastroe 2y ago
      Longhorn volumes automatically replicate to multiple nodes (configurable) and automatically move to the nodes whose pods need it. A postgres database running on a single node will experience some downtime during (re)deployments or when moving across nodes, but should be pretty quick depending on the size of the database. For true HA database, CockroachDB is supposed to be compatible with postgres, but I haven't had a chance to play with it.
      • 5Qn8mNbc2FNCiVV 2y ago
• 0xblinq 2y ago
  > this is why (HN cough) multi-cloud/dedi k3s As long as you don't factor in the cost of the effort to make that work as seamless as it sounds.
• srockets 2y ago
  CSPs aren't your cellular provider. You don't get better pricing by telling them you'd switch, because both the AE and yourself (assuming you ever did the math), know it's not a viable option. Trying to be multicloud by choice, unless you have a very unique use case, which you probably don't, is simply admitting you are incapable of calculating the cost of being multicloud. This would get you horrible pricing, as you just showed your hand.
• rmbyrro 2y ago
  The OVH Eco-line (Kimsufi, So You Start..) are incredibly good and affordable. I have a few beefy servers, which I use to create my own VPS service on top of Proxmox. I'm not a sysadm and it's still simple to setup and maintain. Eco is clever, because they reuse good hardware pieces to assemble new servers, instead of throwing out as garbage... Have been a very happy user with several servers for quite some time.
• j45 2y ago
  Being cloud-agnostic is highly valuable. It's also possible to make determinations on where your needs are served best pro-actively, independent of service plan like this.
• cchance 2y ago
  Thats not a bad overage price, but then again cutting from 20 to 1 while raising prices seems fucking insane