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It is humiliating to have to do LeetCode grinding for
- billy99k 2y agoLeetCode and similar tests are why I got out of software development as a career. I was tired of jumping through hoops on interviews.
- sidpatil 2y agoWhich career path did you choose instead?
- rblatz 2y agoHow often were you interviewing that LeetCode interviews made you switch careers?
- beanjuiceII 2y agopeople will complain about everything
- ponyous 2y agoAnecdotally, in my 14-year career across 15+ jobs/contracts in the EU/UK, I was asked to do LeetCode only once.
- billy99k 2y agoIt's not always the official 'LeetCode', but algorithm tests like it. It's clear that these tests are to filter out older tech employees, because most never had to take these when they were in college. I've also passed every test I was given, so it's not me being bitter that I don't have the required skills. It's a symptom of the ageism issue that is so prevalent in the software engineering world.
- sandeep1998 2y agoWhat did you switch to? (looking alternatives myself)
- mettamage 2y ago> Which career path did you choose instead? Thirding this (sandeep1998 and sidpatil were before me) I became a data analyst recently by the way. They say the field is oversaturated, but I don't think this is true if you're coming from a solid software engineering background.
- Salmonfisher11 2y ago[flagged]
- talldayo 2y agoA lot of developers that aren't purely obsessed with frontend or AI-like niches find Leetcoding rote. Ultimately it's just about facing a question you are unfamiliar with and whiteboarding it with a potential employer - it's only humiliating if you've got an ego to swallow.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- everdrive 2y agoI think that might be a bit narrow. It's humiliating not because you need to bear your ignorance in front of a judgemental audience. (although that part certainly is not comfortable) It's humiliating because the leetcode is not actually representative of anything you'll need to know to do the job. It's an exercise which selections for who can jump through the most hoops, and doesn't really select for the actual job skills.
- sfn42 2y agoThat depends entirely on the problem they ask you to solve. All the technical interviews I've done have been completely reasonable basic programming tasks. Yet I always get really good feedback, did one a few weeks ago where the interviewer said it was the best technical interview he'd had in years. I felt like it could have gone better, and like I could have done just as well years ago when I was fresh out of university. So that tells me that a lot of devs really suck at basic programming, I assume they're the ones joking that their job is just copying code from SO. And probably also the ones who complain about having to show that they can write code before being hired to write code. Personally I think it's great. Easy way to show that I know my shit and separate myself from all my peers who somehow graduated with the same degree as me despite not being able to write a correct fizzbuzz after 3 years. I'll take a live coding interview any time. I know I'm good at this, don't mind proving it.
- uberman 2y agoI agree 100%. If a company wants me to do a standardized take home test, I would consider it. If they asked me to balance tree on the spot I would tell them there is almost certainly a well maintained open source library for that or there is google. If they want me to do what amounted to a sprint in thier domain, I would tell them my consulting rate.
- zero-sharp 2y agoIt's true. But acting like you're above the work also doesn't help you.
- odyssey7 2y agoInterviews are posturing, not work. The tweet explains all of the work that the candidate is proud to have done, and the disappointment at being judged in a posturing pageant instead.
- zero-sharp 2y agoIf you're not already rich, my suggestion is to get used to the idea of passing purely formal tests. It's a really common part of life for everyone else. Sorry.
- odyssey7 2y agoCoexisting with the system is not the same thing as never questioning the world around you.
- uberman 2y agoThey literally are above it.
- pelorat 2y agoWhen I went to interview for my first dev job (C++) all I had to say was; I know what a vtable is, I can use a profiler, debugger and I know assembly language. I was hired without having to write a single line of code.
- hombre_fatal 2y agoHeh, that's how the interview at my first job went at a small Ruby on Rails company. The lead developer asked me intermediate to advanced questions about Rails that you'd only know if you knew Rails. He asked me about impl details of a Rails projects on my Github. And I got the job. I never had an interview as pleasant as that since.
- welder 2y agoI'm building https://wonderful.dev https://wonderful.dev to solve this.
- acjohnson55 2y agoI like the concept. When I worked at a small startup, I proposed and implemented an idea where instead of doing our take-home screening, applicants could instead produce a 1-pager of publicly visible representations of the achievement. Like, if someone has open-source contributions, why should they have to do a canned take-home project? The idea was that they could select three examples to link to, and then write ~5 sentences on each for why they selected the example and what it shows about them. The goal of the format was to cap the amount of effort on both sides, while getting valuable signal. No one actually took us up on this during the time I was there, but I am still proud we offered the option.
- philwelch 2y ago> Real median household income was $80,610 in 2023 https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2024/demo/p60-282.html https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2024/demo/p60-28... Stop whining.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- orwin 2y agoI think you have two different 'leetcode' interviews. The first one if 'write detailed leetcode to solve our slightly different fizzbuzz' The second is 'we have this specific issue, please leetcode a prototype that will solve it.do not enter in details and edgecases' The second one is IMHO way better than any other way to find language-agnostic Devs, that's why I'm not against some kinds of leetcode.
- OkayPhysicist 2y agoYou missed the third type, "write detailed leetcode regurgitating an obscure algorithm for this problem set up to have a very specific answer". IMO, most complaints about leetcode are about that type. Nobody should need to "grind" to pass the "can you program at all"-type fizzbuzz problems. They're annoying, and indicative of a remarkable failure in our hiring system, but they're a minor nuisance. Your second type, in my experience, is not typically referred to as leetcode at all, and is effectively impossible to "grind" for. Unfortunately, my third type is extremely "grindable", as memorizing all the common algorithmic puzzles is a thing you can just do if you spend enough time on it.
- imbusy111 2y agoJust to give some balance here, I'll state a seemingly unpopular opinion. Personally, I have not had issues doing complex coding questions in interviews, or at work. And it becomes clear pretty quickly on the job, when your co-worker has weak computer science fundamentals. Reasoning from first principles is a very powerful technique.
- gumjafar 2y agoTo give some balance; I’ve worked with people strong in CS that suck as people and have no ability to help with product. Experience is not equally distributed given any context. Well rounded people overall have been the best to work with. Optimizing for a single variable is a very powerful technique of the stupid.
- falcor84 2y agoIt's a bit of a strawman argument - I'm not aware of any company that hires purely based on leetcode results; they typically also include interviews focused on product/design skills and "culture fit".
- raydev 2y agoSure, the FAANGs and other companies aren't exclusively hiring based on time-constrained leetcode performance, but they are extremely biased towards it. The coding sessions are pass/fail, you need to get to some type of solution that works. If you get most of the way there and were maybe just slow, it doesn't matter, you will not be hired. On the other hand, companies are very flexible on system design and background sessions. This lopsided process allows LC superstars to get through despite glaring deficiencies once they are involved in day-to-day work.
- m_rpn 2y agoThe issue for me is that even if you have strong computer science fundamentals and lots of experience most of the time you won't be able to come up with an advanced optimized algorithm (that took years of research) on the spot, which is what is often required in these kind of interviews. Even if you manage the average kid that grinded leetcode for years will appear a better candidate than you, maybe he really is, but that's unlikely on the day-to-day job. In the end it's just about who grinds more, obviously if somebody is really weak on the basics it shows immediately without having to go through the hops, fizzbuzz is enough.
- esco27 2y agoThis is a mix of laziness and convenience. Hiring often boils down to what’s easiest, not what’s best. Leetcode is a proxy: it quickly filters candidates and spares everyone from more effort. But if you hire based on Leetcode, you’ll get Leetcode engineers. If you hire based on track record, impact, and real-world projects, you’ll likely get someone who’s better—and actually fits the role. If you want to do your part and can afford it, turn down any Leetcode based interviews and let them know why if they ask.
- almost_usual 2y agoTop tier companies can filter on both, the market is saturated now.
- esco27 2y agoThat’s fair, but most software jobs aren’t at top-tier companies. HR often stays out of the process due to technical barriers, leaving engineers to handle interviews. Leetcode becomes the easiest way to offload the hassle—ironically, a self-inflicted wound on fellow engineers.
- marcosdumay 2y agoYes, always keep basic statistics in mind. Every single proxy you apply that isn't correlated to what you really want will filter-out the outliers towards the median. And remember what the median job candidate that applies to your place looks like. Do you want to remove the people that don't look like them? If yes, you are on the clear.
- draw_down 2y ago[dead]
- Aardwolf 2y ago> I have written more code than most people and I still will be judged for not being able to solve a coding question Why would you fail it though if you have written more code than most people (assuming most people means most people in tech and not most people worldwide in general since most people are not software developers), and published in A* venues
- Spivak 2y agoBecause these kinds of questions are coding trivia and your ability to do them is a function of having seen them before. Having to study for an interview kinda defeats the point, no? I'm so glad I'm on the ops side where these kinds of games aren't common. At best you'll get some light Linux userspace trivia.
- herpdyderp 2y agoI publish and maintain dozens of open source packages that are downloaded millions of times per year and I couldn’t off the top of my head implement a bubble sort. Because why the heck would I ever do that? The point is that LeetCode does not test the actual skill set of writing useful code, it tests how much you’ve grinded LeetCode.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- syspec 2y agoNo one would ask you to implement bubble sort, or a specific algorithm. They would ask you to solve a problem
- seanhunter 2y agoIf you think something you have to do in an interview is “humiliating” when all they’re asking you to do is demonstrate some skill on a whiteboard you have some self-reflection to do. I don’t personally think leetcode is that great for interviews but candidates who act like it’s above them to figure out problems etc have a serious problem. In other fields this is not only completely normal but absolutely something people embrace. I have been in music masterclasses and heard absolutely world famous musicians playing basic scales to demonstrate something, in maths solving basic problems is absolutely something people will do all the time[1]. My dad was a chemical engineer and he was always happy to get a pen and pad out and solve some problem It’s completely ridiculous to think you’re being humiliated by being asked to solve some algorithm question or other on a whiteboard and if you think that, I implore you to change your perspective. You want a job - you should be prepared to demonstrate that you’re prepared to do things that people ask you to do. [1] Fields medal winner James Maynard doing first year linear algebra problems on a whiteboard https://youtu.be/100Im_72xl4?si=id2Y1SwvM2ZRBCW4 https://youtu.be/100Im_72xl4?si=id2Y1SwvM2ZRBCW4
- remram 2y agoThis tweet is about "grinding", eg the time-consuming prep work before interviews. I think.
- 11101010001100 2y agoI'm a prof. I grind when I prepare a lecture. It's part of the job.
- uberman 2y agoGrind? Really? I work in higher ed and I teach. Prepping even a new course is not grinding. Teaching a course where you are professor of record is certainly not grinding unless you dont know the topic at all. If that is the case though you should not be lecturing for this class. The only legit excuse for grinding here is if you did not do any prep. Doing your job even with a 4/4 load is not grinding. Research proposals and research projects might require grinding. Prepping lectures no way.
- bingohbangoh 2y agoPeople really hate coding interviews but they now exist as a "stupid test." Academia has a problem with possibly fraudulent papers and grade inflation. It is inevitable that companies won't trust the papers and grades/degrees like they did in the past.
- zeroCalories 2y agoI trust a Harvard undergrad more than I trust a second or third tier grad student. It's so easy to shit out mediocre work and build accolades without actually being able to do anything these days.
- maeln 2y agoHonestly, if you are Google, Meta, Netflix, etc, and/or pay largely above the market rate, fine, go for it. What I don't get is when start-up, who struggle to recruit, do the same. I have been on both side of the recruitment process. I wrote some technical tests. The thing is, it is very hard to evaluate someone level with synthetic test, and leetcode, a.k.a hope-you-know-the-right-algo-for-this-question, type of test are, in my experience, amongst the worse (especially if live-coded or timed). This type of test will filter out a lot of competent dev, because let's be honest, most dev don't need to be able to come up on the spot with a dynamic programming solution to a completely synthetic problem. And I also find that algorithmic / programming skill are often way less important for a SWE than good communication, transparency, the ability to learn, ... Unless you working on a product where performance is absolutely critical, I find that having a difficult technical test that is a go/no go, yield worst result.
- mettamage 2y agoWhat do you mean by good communication? I feel different fields mean different things with it. E.g. in the consulting world you need to be able to deal with people their emotions. In software engineering, I don't think I ever really experienced this. However, I did experience it as a teacher [1, 2]. With software engineering I feel it's related to HN culture. Of course not everything, but a lot of it. Some things I can think of that software engineers would consider good communication is: (1) steelmanning arguments, (2) clear/logical communication and (3) concise, not long-winded. But often times, I don't hear/see anything about: (1) dealing with emotions or (2) the ability to reduce tension by being playful for example. How do you see this? [1] e.g. a student picking the wrong course and being utterly dejected and making the class toxic but it's not really her fault because the way this course was promoted was a bit too optimistic in its marketing. [2] A student thinking that they're not good enough and they start crying on the spot.
- dlisboa 2y agoI honestly don’t understand what it gets companies. It amounts to eliminating surgical candidates with 30 years experience because they can’t do organic chemistry on the spot. Who came up with this scam? From all I hear the quality of engineering at these FAANGs has not been increasing.
- 11101010001100 2y agoIt is humiliating to work for someone else. What else is new.
- turing_complete 2y ago"I'm so smart that you should just hire me without any interview but also I have to practice for weeks before I can implement a topological sort or longest common subsequence algorithm."
- mettamage 2y agoSooooo... Tangentially related But I'm looking for leetcode buddies to grind with actually. I have around 300 questions done. I'm not in a rush, and also, I kind of like it. The more I do it, the more it's actually fun. Anyone wants to join me? We could form a small group. My email is in my profile.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- _giorgio_ 2y agoAny example of good programming problems (python), that you can solve while learning something?
- tqi 2y agoFor one, the proposed alternative seems to boil down to "give me special treatment" which is not a great look. For another, there is no perfect screening process, only tradeoffs between throughput, accuracy, and cost. Finally, if you think this very common interviewing process is "humiliating" then you're going to absolutely hate the hour to hour of most jobs...
- 29athrowaway 2y agoIt is hard to prove what you achieved in other companies. I don't like competitive programming but at least it is an objective measure. Most criterias in interviews are subjective.
- instig007 2y ago> I have written more code than most people If by most people you mean non-programmers, then maybe. Otherwise it sounds like a whining of a B-player who just realized they've never had skills sufficient for NFL. The fact of the matter is the better you're in understanding CS and the underlying mathematical domains, the easier the leetcode questions get, it always has been and always will be. And contrary to most beliefs, you don't have to memorize individual problems. You learn the domains of problems and solve them with the same repeating methods. But most people just prefer spending their time on infortainment and being presumptious on Twitter, than actually learning stuff.
- mettamage 2y agoAre you up for coaching? Sounds like you'd be a fun stern coach (well I think someone stern is fun). Just for like 15 to 30 min. per week, nothing much. My email is in my profile. About me in short: 2 bachelors, 2 masters (bsc: psych, CS, msc: game-design, CS). Software engineer for 4 years Teacher (programming) for 2 years 300 leetcode questions done (not sure if I'm doing it for interview prep or fun or both, don't need to go the leetcode route anymore but I find it a rewarding endeavor) I sometimes expand my math capabilities for funzies My email is in my profile
- toastercat 2y ago> But most people just prefer spending their time on infortainment and being presumptious on Twitter, than actually learning stuff. Yeah that or wasting their time working on open-source or side projects, which typically has a poor return on investment. One of the biggest things I learned after years of trying to work in open-source is that it is not worth it (financially). The employers who pay the best salaries do not care unless the project you work on is very closely related. Even then, you are way, way better off grinding Leetcode instead.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- robenkleene 2y ago> But most people just prefer spending their time on infortainment and being presumptious on Twitter, than actually learning stuff. Or writing useful software? Open source is a thing, as are independent commercial software projects. The tragedy of Leetcode is means the best financial ROI for programmers in aggregate is essentially play programmer Soduko instead of spending their time creating novel and useful software.
- jfyasduw 2y agoWhat bugs me is applying for Haskell/Rust/Scala roles and they make me leetcode in Python which I never use.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- yobbo 2y agoThe poster sees it like Hans Zimmer (https://www.imdb.com/list/ls066405124/ https://www.imdb.com/list/ls066405124/) being asked to play scales on a piano as an audition for writing a movie score, and then being rejected for some mistake. Indeed, that would be humiliating. In reality, it is more like a football penalty shootout after a match has ended in a draw. There are too many (over?) qualified candidates, and coding interviews are more fair than choosing randomly.
- hellisothers 2y agoI just finished several months of preparing for and doing (and failing) interviews, it was only adter i spent a month of Leetcode 8+ hrs a day that I started doing well and getting good offers. I also hated the game, I’ve been in software engineering over 20 years and was very resistant to this treatment but in the end I realized I’m not going to change the system but I am entirely capable of jumping through these hoops if I just try way too hard. My hack/advice for this is if you want to avoid it as much as possible look into mobile development, most mobile loops have little or no leetcode (except Meta and Google of course).
- bediger4000 2y agoGrinding leetcode is kind of the same as grinding college classes, where you memorize material, get a passing grade, then forget as much as possible. Doing leetcode type problems, reflecting on what else can be learned, trying to draw general conclusions about programming techniques and what an interviewer might be getting at with a problem can have some benefits.
- returnInfinity 2y agoAfter many interviews last few months, I would prefer all interviews be leetcode. Tired of getting rejected, because you don't have experience with their particular tech stack.
- tzs 2y agoI don't think that would lessen rejections for not having experience with their particular tech stack. I think the tech stack requirements are because they don't expect people to stick around long term and so don't want any of that time taken up by the person having to learn a new tech stack.
- OutOfHere 2y agoProgramming exercises are fine, but they should be relevant to the job, ergo a down-to-earth real-world problem, without any element of deceit. Also, they should not be the primary reason for hiring someone.
- almatabata 2y ago> WHICH BY THE WAY IS NOT SOMETHING YOU WILL DO A LOT IN BIG TECH BECAUSE WE HAVE CODING ASSISTANTS NOW FFS! Even if we take that point as fact. The whole point of the exercise, is to check if you can write it yourself unassisted. If you cannot do it yourself, how can I trust you to judge what the assistant is writing? The assistant is only as good as the supervisor at this point.
- hnbear 2y agoRather than pure leetcode in interviews, I like really simple take home activities. I know take-home’s aren’t well liked either. But, make it really simple and provide a fit repo to commit into. Provide the marking rubric. Then you actually get to evaluate someone on how they’d work on your team. - are their PRs nicely written - do they even know git properly - do they comment code - even for basic code is it structured - does it pass the linter? Eg. Providing candidates a challenge and the actual pylint command you’ll score it with it’s really easy to see who even bothered to check it passes. Rather than putting someone on the spot with leetcode see how they behave as a dev. On your real team you’ll have a story with acceptance criteria and a repo to PR into. Give them the same. It can be a short tiny bit of code but you’ll learn so much about there behavior. This is also much harder to just google the answer, because you don’t just care about the answer. Design it so it’s just an hour or two, then offer the choice. Explain you need to evaluate their programming skills for a programming role and they have the choice of interviewer led in-person, or a take home. Both designed to be roughly 1-2 hours.