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I'm totally fine with this, but I wish they would do the same thing with Apple. Google's platform, at the very least is open and I can run my own apps. One cou

by jeswin 2y ago

I'm totally fine with this, but I wish they would do the same thing with Apple. Google's platform, at the very least is open and I can run my own apps. One could ask, "How is Apple a Monopoly, and do they abuse that position?". In my view it is, since you can't have a business or build connected hardware without an iOS app. And as for abusing that position for gaining market share, there are just too many examples starting with say, watches.

hsbauauvhabzb 2y ago
The App Store is one consideration, and the hardware ecosystem another. I personally think both are problems. The ability to cast audio from my device to another is less supported now than they were back when things had audio auxiliary jacks.
- pcl 2y ago
  How so? Because you need to buy a converter cable? That sounds like “marginally more expensive”, and certainly not a monopoly-abusing position.
  - hsbauauvhabzb 2y ago
    Apple today discontinued the lightning to 3.5mm converters, but I’m more referring to things like the apple exclusive airplay, proprietary Bluetooth codecs, etc
bigs 2y ago
Google abuses privacy in every product they own via their monopoly over the ad ecosystem. Very different to Apple.
ThePhysicist 2y ago
Apple doesn't have a similar position in any space though, or do they? In terms of market share they're not even the biggest player in the smartphone market, they sit below 20 % (the most profitable 20 % though). Google, in comparison, absolutely dominates the search and ad markets and sucks all oxygen out of them to keep any competition from springing up by controlling distribution and limiting choice. They e.g. paid vast amounts of money to Apple to make sure users don't get a free choice of search engine. If you wanted to compare the Apple Watch with this it would mean that Apple would make exclusive deals with all stores (online and IRL) selling watches so that consumers would only see Apple watches everywhere they go and would need to look in the basement or on an obscure subpage to find any watches from a different manufacturer. Clearly that's not the case. That said I'm not a fan of Apples walled garden either, I think this should be addressed (and in the EU it is being addressed). It's ridiculous to have this super powerful hardware and I can only run sanctioned apps on them instead of being able to install any kind of software I like.
- moffkalast 2y ago
  > they're not even the biggest player in the smartphone market I think worldwide numbers are skewing your data there, for antitrust only the US numbers matter and those are 59% for Apple on mobile.
- InsomniacL 2y ago
  > Apple doesn't have a similar position in any space though, or do they? Apple has exclusive control over a market (AppStore), which has almost 2 million different products (Apps), 820,000 suppliers (app publishers) and over 1.3 billion customers (active iPhone users) which conducts more trade ($1.1 trillion) than the entire GDP of Luxemburg. If that's not a monopoly i don't know what is.
  - joha4270 2y ago
    Yes, Apple has exclusive control over the Apple ecosystem. I'm sure a lot of Apple users would like greater control over their devices. But the choice isn't between Apple and not having a phone. Android exists, and as long as its a viable choice, Apple isn't a monopoly.
    - InsomniacL 2y ago
      > Android exists, and as long as its a viable choice, Apple isn't a monopoly. Not only is Apple a monopoly, they become one, and maintain it illegally. US Justice Department Sues Apple for Monopolizing Smartphone Markets[1] The European Commission has fined Apple over €1.8 billion for abusing its dominant position on the market[2] [1] https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-apple-monopolizing-smartphone-markets https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-apple... [2] https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_1161 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_...
      - nodamage 2y ago
        Just to be clear, the Justice Department has filed a lawsuit but they have not actually won it. Until a judge or jury rules in their favor (and appeals are exhausted) you cannot cite the mere existence of a lawsuit as proof of anything. Keep in mind that Epic also filed a lawsuit claiming Apple was a monopoly but could not prove it in court.
fransje26 2y ago
> One could ask, "How is Apple a Monopoly, and do they abuse that position?" I opened my local configurator to buy a 13" M3 MacBook Air. Memory, update from 16GB to 24GB -> +230€ SSD, update from 256GB to 2TB -> +920€ Textbook monopolistic price gouging.
- crazygringo 2y ago
  No, that's textbook price discrimination, aka standard pricing everywhere. Have you looked at the prices for add-ons for cars? Or even for pizza toppings? There's no world in which you can tell me Apple has a monopoly on laptops. C'mon.
- PapaPalpatine 2y ago
  > Textbook monopolistic price gouging So they’re a monopoly because you can only buy Apple laptops from them?
  - Saline9515 2y ago
    Yes they are a monopoly on the MacOS hardware market, which explains this kind of extractive behavior.
    - baggy_trough 2y ago
      That's not a monopoly.
      - Saline9515 2y ago
        Yes it is, they are the only supplier on the market for MacOS hardware. In the market for Linux or Windows, hardware is priced at a competitive level. You may argue that the relevant market is for "computers" as a whole, however it can be argued that bundling hardware and software to charge high prices is a classic monopoly behavior nonetheless.
        2y ago
japhib 2y ago
There’s a similar antitrust lawsuit against Apple: https://www.npr.org/2024/09/20/nx-s1-5119948/a-look-at-the-dojs-lawsuit-against-apple-for-violating-antitrust-laws https://www.npr.org/2024/09/20/nx-s1-5119948/a-look-at-the-d... These things take a long time, though. I think the Apple one is just not as far along.
yung_steezy 2y ago
Apple are creating a walled marketing garden with their new privacy features too. If a person pays for iCloud storage of any time they get placed onto the Apple VPN and their IP address resolves one of two or three different values for any given country. This makes web tracking and attribution impossible to anyone who is not Apple. Users might be happy with it but I think it is similar anti-competitive behaviour to what Google are doing.

by jeswin 2y ago

hsbauauvhabzb 2y ago

The App Store is one consideration, and the hardware ecosystem another. I personally think both are problems. The ability to cast audio from my device to another is less supported now than they were back when things had audio auxiliary jacks.

pcl 2y ago
How so? Because you need to buy a converter cable? That sounds like “marginally more expensive”, and certainly not a monopoly-abusing position.
- hsbauauvhabzb 2y ago
  Apple today discontinued the lightning to 3.5mm converters, but I’m more referring to things like the apple exclusive airplay, proprietary Bluetooth codecs, etc

bigs 2y ago

Google abuses privacy in every product they own via their monopoly over the ad ecosystem. Very different to Apple.

ThePhysicist 2y ago

Apple doesn't have a similar position in any space though, or do they? In terms of market share they're not even the biggest player in the smartphone market, they sit below 20 % (the most profitable 20 % though). Google, in comparison, absolutely dominates the search and ad markets and sucks all oxygen out of them to keep any competition from springing up by controlling distribution and limiting choice. They e.g. paid vast amounts of money to Apple to make sure users don't get a free choice of search engine. If you wanted to compare the Apple Watch with this it would mean that Apple would make exclusive deals with all stores (online and IRL) selling watches so that consumers would only see Apple watches everywhere they go and would need to look in the basement or on an obscure subpage to find any watches from a different manufacturer. Clearly that's not the case. That said I'm not a fan of Apples walled garden either, I think this should be addressed (and in the EU it is being addressed). It's ridiculous to have this super powerful hardware and I can only run sanctioned apps on them instead of being able to install any kind of software I like.

moffkalast 2y ago
> they're not even the biggest player in the smartphone market I think worldwide numbers are skewing your data there, for antitrust only the US numbers matter and those are 59% for Apple on mobile.
InsomniacL 2y ago
> Apple doesn't have a similar position in any space though, or do they? Apple has exclusive control over a market (AppStore), which has almost 2 million different products (Apps), 820,000 suppliers (app publishers) and over 1.3 billion customers (active iPhone users) which conducts more trade ($1.1 trillion) than the entire GDP of Luxemburg. If that's not a monopoly i don't know what is.
- joha4270 2y ago
  Yes, Apple has exclusive control over the Apple ecosystem. I'm sure a lot of Apple users would like greater control over their devices. But the choice isn't between Apple and not having a phone. Android exists, and as long as its a viable choice, Apple isn't a monopoly.
  - InsomniacL 2y ago
    > Android exists, and as long as its a viable choice, Apple isn't a monopoly. Not only is Apple a monopoly, they become one, and maintain it illegally. US Justice Department Sues Apple for Monopolizing Smartphone Markets[1] The European Commission has fined Apple over €1.8 billion for abusing its dominant position on the market[2] [1] https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-apple-monopolizing-smartphone-markets https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-sues-apple... [2] https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_1161 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_...
    - nodamage 2y ago
      Just to be clear, the Justice Department has filed a lawsuit but they have not actually won it. Until a judge or jury rules in their favor (and appeals are exhausted) you cannot cite the mere existence of a lawsuit as proof of anything. Keep in mind that Epic also filed a lawsuit claiming Apple was a monopoly but could not prove it in court.

fransje26 2y ago

> One could ask, "How is Apple a Monopoly, and do they abuse that position?" I opened my local configurator to buy a 13" M3 MacBook Air. Memory, update from 16GB to 24GB -> +230€ SSD, update from 256GB to 2TB -> +920€ Textbook monopolistic price gouging.

crazygringo 2y ago
No, that's textbook price discrimination, aka standard pricing everywhere. Have you looked at the prices for add-ons for cars? Or even for pizza toppings? There's no world in which you can tell me Apple has a monopoly on laptops. C'mon.
PapaPalpatine 2y ago
> Textbook monopolistic price gouging So they’re a monopoly because you can only buy Apple laptops from them?
- Saline9515 2y ago
  Yes they are a monopoly on the MacOS hardware market, which explains this kind of extractive behavior.
  - baggy_trough 2y ago
    That's not a monopoly.
    - Saline9515 2y ago
      Yes it is, they are the only supplier on the market for MacOS hardware. In the market for Linux or Windows, hardware is priced at a competitive level. You may argue that the relevant market is for "computers" as a whole, however it can be argued that bundling hardware and software to charge high prices is a classic monopoly behavior nonetheless.
      - 2y ago

japhib 2y ago

There’s a similar antitrust lawsuit against Apple: https://www.npr.org/2024/09/20/nx-s1-5119948/a-look-at-the-dojs-lawsuit-against-apple-for-violating-antitrust-laws https://www.npr.org/2024/09/20/nx-s1-5119948/a-look-at-the-d... These things take a long time, though. I think the Apple one is just not as far along.

yung_steezy 2y ago

Apple are creating a walled marketing garden with their new privacy features too. If a person pays for iCloud storage of any time they get placed onto the Apple VPN and their IP address resolves one of two or three different values for any given country. This makes web tracking and attribution impossible to anyone who is not Apple. Users might be happy with it but I think it is similar anti-competitive behaviour to what Google are doing.