15 ms·

Japanese workers turn to resignation agencies

170 points by billybuckwheat 2y ago

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Can anyone in Japan share what ground truth looks like around this? Does this churn matter to businesses when they’re in a labor supply shortage? Do these folks have other jobs they’re moving to? Or are they potentially NEETs bailing on being employed?
- Seb-C 2y ago
  This definitely exists, even when switching jobs. However I would say that IMO it's another case of foreigners buzzing by depicting boring and common stuff under a "weird Japan" light. Shitty companies manipulating employees to stop them from resigning is something that exists in any country. And this escalating to the labor authorities or going through a lawyer is not a rare thing anywhere either. It happens more frequently in Japan because the culture of not being confrontational is strong. The fact that lawyers can afford to specialize in this matter alone is just a logical result of the larger number of customers. EDIT: I also want to add this: if you have been in a company for a while, you are eventually going to see or hear about how resignation is handled for other employees. If you want to quit and already know that the company is going to harrass you and make your life hell, is it so weird to save your time and mental health to delegate all of that to a dedicated professional?
  - School-Cotton 2y ago
    > Shitty companies manipulating employees to stop them from resigning is something that exists in any country. I have never heard of it in the US. I’m sure some examples exist but I’d be really unpleasantly surprised if it’s a major social issue here.
    - travisgriggs 2y ago
      Amen. IMO, it's an tortured example of Hanlons Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. I see tons of shitty stuff roll downwards to employees in US companies, but I never see the kind of competence at the upper levels to pull off the kind of manipulation implied here. It's just negligence, ignorance, and dysfunctionality that tends to screw us yanks at the bottom.
    - gampleman 2y ago
      And what do you think a broad non-compete clause is? The goal is the same, just the means are different.
      - hiatus 2y ago
        Does a non-compete prevent you from leaving your current employer?
      - 0xBDB 2y ago
        > And what do you think a broad non-compete clause is? Pretty universally illegal. California doesn't have noncompete clauses at all. Texas, the state I'm most familiar with, doesn't allow them to be enforced except for skills that are proprietary to an employer, .e.g., supporting specific software in a specific way or something. Pretty sure most states that have them are the same. Making burgers isn't going to do it, and nobody would sue you over it anyway, they'd sue the new employer whose lawyers will know better. I have had an employer try to get me to sign an illegal noncompete before, but that was because it was a small employer who didn't know the law. When I quit I politely informed him that it was unenforceable. He didn't try. That doesn't mean employers who know better don't try to intimidate employees, but they could just as easily threaten to break your kneecaps. Probably they won't.
        gampleman 2y ago
        So is this practice in Japan, but it happens there just as overly broad non-competes happen in the west. And probably in both cases if you are a well informed person in a position with decent labour demand you can deal with that sort of a problem without much trouble yourself. But if you are in a much weaker position, then having some form of outside assistance available is invaluable.
  - TulliusCicero 2y ago
    Does it? You hear stories in the US of people trying to manipulate employees into not quitting or lambasting them for leaving, but trying to actually, seriously deny their ability to quit is nearly unheard of.
    - Ekaros 2y ago
      They would absolutely do that if contracts would be stronger. But as they want to keep their ease of firing and laying off people, contracts are weak in both direction.
    - 3D30497420 2y ago
      I don't recall seeing examples in the US of directly preventing someone from resigning. But I have read about situations where companies make it harder to get the next job, essentially forcing someone to stay in a bad work situation. For example, non-competes for service jobs (fast-food, hairdressers, etc.)
    - rightbyte 2y ago
      For agricultural workers it is quite common with 'we safekeep your passport for you' and similar schemes. I think foreign workers are more exploited in general but outside of the cities it is way harder to escape such employers.
  - fzeroracer 2y ago
    > Shitty companies manipulating employees to stop them from resigning is something that exists in any country. And this escalating to the labor authorities or going through a lawyer is not a rare thing anywhere either. It is? In what other countries are we talking about here where a company escalates to the labor authorities to prevent you from quitting? Usually this kind of thing is reserved to harass visa holders, not native workers.
    - Seb-C 2y ago
      I mean that the employees escalates it, not the companies.
- Aeolun 2y ago
  Based on what I’ve seen and heard (luckily, not experienced), I think it depends on the company. Smaller ones with older management may be both more reliant on the labor and more used to lifetime employment. I suspect there’s probably some maximal fuckiness point. Most companies aren’t like that, but resignation in Japan has a lot of stigma even if everything goes well, so many people will use these services just so they don’t have to deal with it. The way the culture works there’s no way for the managers to be anything but unfailingly polite to an external party that calls to resign on behalf of the employee.
- rjh29 2y ago
  My gf used one. She had a legal right to quit but it was inconvenient for the company. They refused multiple times, they also gaslit with "what about the children we teach, if you leave the school might have to close" etc. etc. Using the agency means you do a 10 minute phone call and that's it. You don't even have to work your remaining days or talk to the company ever again. The agencies seem to have some legal powers that a normal person doesn't, or at least in reality they get results much faster and aren't allowed to screw around. What did amuse me is there's a discount if you use them multiple times.
  - rkagerer 2y ago
    Is that "gaslighting" or simply plain old guilt tripping?
    - rjh29 2y ago
      You're right, thanks for the correction.
  - DonsDiscountGas 2y ago
    > The agencies seem to have some legal powers that a normal person doesn't I suspect the power that they have is actually knowing the law. Also by hiring one the employee has shown they are willing to hire a lawyer, so the employer can't bluff with legal threats. And very few employees are actually going to be worth the trouble to sue
  - jalapenos 2y ago
    The special powers are probably the following sentence: "sure, you could sue; also, we could check more closely for labor law violations; which would you like?".
- indrora 2y ago
  A friend of mine recently went through the typical US process of interviewing while he was in a job (Always take the chance to say you're "tending to your elderly family" or some such in these situations) and landed a new position, though it would mean moving from Kyoto to outside Kumamoto. This was at a Major Electronics Vendor that is known internationally and who produces... "Entertainment devices". He walked up to his boss, handed his letter of resignation in, and was told "No, you're too critical to this project, I can't accept this." His response was to say "If I'm too critical to this project then you have failed in your duties as a manager, and it would be very inconvenient for you to have to admit that, so you're going to let me go or I'll make it Very Inconvenient for you by telling the whole team you think they're idiots and that the foreigner is the only reason this release will succeed." He then didn't show up for a month (new job gave him enough time to take a nice, lengthy 3-month vacation to Korea and back) and his old boss kept calling and sms'ing him... On a number he only used for that job.
wrs 2y ago
So how is it the company can “refuse to let them quit” or “force” an employee to go to a temple? What is the actual enforcement mechanism other than guilt?
- evan_ 2y ago
  Withholding a letter of recommendation maybe? If the culture truly is such that you get a job in your early 20s and stay there until you retire or die, then presumably a job seeker in their 30s would be virtually unhireable without a good explanation.
  - prisonality 2y ago
    In that case, I don't think Resignation Agencies could help to get them to spit out letter of recommendation. But the again - these agencies might be solving an entirely different problem.
- lmm 2y ago
  Japanese companies have some culture of bullying and harassment. The laws against it are limited and enforcement is toothless. But yeah, it's mostly ultimately a lack of courage from the employees in question.
  - presentation 2y ago
    It’s definitely illegal, labor rights are pretty strong in Japan. I think your typical Japanese person is just very compliant when faced with an uncomfortable situation and bad bosses abuse that dynamic.
    - lmm 2y ago
      > It’s definitely illegal, labor rights are pretty strong in Japan. In some ways they are. Notably Japan has no concept of constructive dismissal, and companies have a pretty broad right to assign work and even to assign someone to work at a faraway office. There may be some anti-harassment law on the books, but it's very hard to get anything recognised under it, and if someone is just constantly assigned bad work, or no work, they have very little recourse. And even if you could win a lawsuit, Japan doesn't do punitive damages or damages for emotional distress. So you'd be able to claim, maybe, lost wages for your time out of work, and... that's probably it.
StanislavPetrov 2y ago
In my 20s I had a boss who said he wouldn't accept my resignation, so I stopped showing up. Works every time.
- t2o34234234234 2y ago
  [flagged]
- unnouinceput 2y ago
  Do that in Japan and you're gonna be unemployed forever. You'll either open your own business (fat chance of that succeeding) or move abroad (again, with what money in your 20's?).
  - rjh29 2y ago
    Yeah, that's why these agencies exist. Use them and you can literally stop showing up to work and still get all your required documents, with no hassle.
  - jalapenos 2y ago
    Right, you'll be unemployed forever, in a country with a labor shortage. Sounds legit.
MarketingJason 2y ago
Reading this, I was assuming that this behavior was enforced by reference checks for new hires being commonplace. However, the few sources I found in a quick search make it seem like asking/requiring references is a more recent practice due to western influence. I'd guess it's just guilt and shame?
- lr4444lr 2y ago
  I too was struggling to understand the problem described herr: does unilaterally quitting a job actually harm the employee's future employment prospects inside Japan, or is the problem here just a matter of culturally enforced social stigma?
  - rtpg 2y ago
    There are documents that your former employer often needs to provide you for stuff like health insurance. And now suddenly it's some direct confrontation to get a document, while your future employer (Who could still just let you go!) is asking you for a document to move forward. So you're facing a bunch of time pressure in gnarly cases, without many people around to help you out. There are procedures to get around this stuff but since it's not the common case, when it does happen suddenly you get to learn about labor law. I think anywhere in the world, when there is active antagonism causing bureaucracy to not be able to move forward, most people freeze up like a deer caught in headlights. Turns out that being a sociopath can be quite helpful for exploiting workers!
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      Sometimes I wonder what a society would look like if they could very reliably identify sociopathy at an early age, and then either euthanize those people or at least blacklist them so they can never have any job higher than a janitor. Would such a society work better than current societies? Or would it be like that episode of Star Trek where Kirk gets split into good and bad versions, and the good version was too ineffectual to be a decent captain without his bad side?
asdasdsddd 2y ago
It's insane how successful Japan is in spite of their corporate inefficiencies.
- adamc 2y ago
  It's fascinating and makes me want to know more about how the culture works.
  - latentsea 2y ago
    It works by having it beaten into for you several decades of your childhood that you don't speak up, you put the groups first, and appearances trump reality. I don't necessarily think it's any better or any worse than western culture. My perspective is "it just has different failure modes".
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      Yes, a large part of why Japanese society appears (and in fact performs) so perfect is because of an absolute fear of shame. From the moment you are born you are taught to care about what and how others think and feel about you and your conduct. If it's not your social peers, it's the literal Sun ("Otentou-sama") looking down upon you and judging your every single moment. If you shame yourself, you also bring shame upon your family and your ancestors both living and dead. To be clear: This does work, and most Japanese are happy to serve society rather than feel compelled to do so at threat of cancellation. There are also benefits for the compliant, namely in the form of social safety nets both legal and social to ensure a minimum standard of living. Japanese expats are a particular bunch, they left Japan because they couldn't stand the shaming and strict adherence to social codes. A kind of "you can't fire me if I quit" response.
    - Escapado 2y ago
      Agreed and I would add to the list the ungodly amount of hours they work. I know per hour they might not be as productive (or simply held back by antiquated processes within their companies) but they seem to make up for it in part by working so much overtime.
tdeck 2y ago
> Some companies are notorious for resignation difficulties, excessive overtime and intense work pressure. So much so that they are labeled as “black companies.” The problem has become so severe that Japan’s Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare’s Labor Standards Bureau has published a list of these companies to warn potential job seekers. If only they were in a position to do something about it.
- ThrowawayTestr 2y ago
  They published a list, what more do you want?
grose 2y ago
Recently I someone living in Japan on Reddit who experienced a "they won't let me quit" scenario which may provide some perspective on what it's like: https://www.reddit.com/r/japanlife/comments/1gk4enr/current_job_refusing_to_go_forward_with/ https://www.reddit.com/r/japanlife/comments/1gk4enr/current_... https://www.reddit.com/r/japanlife/comments/1goyw04/end_of_a_saga_job_refusing_to_go_forward_with/ https://www.reddit.com/r/japanlife/comments/1goyw04/end_of_a... Personally (living in Japan) I've never experienced something like this, but it does happen.
- presentation 2y ago
  Yeah nobody I know has told me they’ve experienced this, but maybe it’s common amongst some groups and not others. Black companies are something else.
- intellix 2y ago
  why can't you just email them and stop turning up?
  - Aeolun 2y ago
    It’ll become messy if they keep paying you?
  - makeitdouble 2y ago
    Typical contracts will require a 1 month period between you announce you're quitting and you effective termination date. If you have enough paid vacation you could pad that period with your vacation, but it requires pre-acceptance, so cooperation from your employer. Otherwise you're into non-accepted vacation territory, which could lead to financial penalties (basically withdrawing your salary, with potential tax adjustements. They could also try to sue you, and given you're fleeing assume they'd get a default judgement for instance) Then there's all the paperwork you actually want to have properly done by your employer. They're legally obligated to, but it's always harder if you're in adversarial mode. All in all, you can still quit cold turkey ("bakkure"), but that's a usually a PITA. Getting a pro to negociate a clean separation will be better than just disappearing, if you're not in the mood/capacity to face your employer. PS; There are magical words that would give any employee an immediate option to never see their employer again. I don't want them in my comments, but anyone interested will find them with a simple search.
yieldcrv 2y ago
I could flip that culture on its head
tho234ui2o343 2y ago
[flagged]
neilv 2y ago
> Those fortunate enough to leave are sometimes asked to send apology letters to colleagues or deliver speeches expressing regret for their “selfishness” and “disrespect.” Of course, these are the most extreme cases–but they do occur, according to Momuri. So, not that much different mindset than a US startup founder who takes 70% equity, while offering the first hire 0.5% to 2% in options (vesting over 4 years, with exercise rules that further discourage ever getting any equity at all)? (Edit: Fastest downvoting I've ever seen on HN. :)
- rjh29 2y ago
  The "selfishness"/"disrespect" is literally just politeness, the person writing it is often not genuinely thinking this, and the people reading it also know it's bullshit. Journalists should stop directly translating Japanese as the nuance is lost.
bargainbot3k 2y ago
Sounds like the issues around dating, marriage and children aren’t really cut and dry in Japan. The population crisis isn’t a “just so” thing. The society optimized for one set of criteria but is buckling under others.
reallyeli 2y ago
The survey (https://career-research.mynavi.jp/reserch/20241003_86953/ https://career-research.mynavi.jp/reserch/20241003_86953/) which is the basis for the 1 in 5 claim seems sus, I would bet it's not true. (I don't read Japanese, but had Claude read it for me; if someone who does read Japanese could confirm, that would be interesting.) They say 16.6% of people who changed jobs last year used these services, but only 23.2% of companies report having any employees use them. If 16.6% is correct, the % of companies number should be much higher, supposing companies have multiple resignations per year. The method for the first number on how they found their respondents is described just as "internet survey," with no further info. There are a lot of ways to do this that would over-sample people who use these services.
- mahoho 2y ago
  I'm not gonna read the whole thing but the 23.2% is only for the first half of the year 上半期（2024年1月～6月）に退職代行サービスを利用して退職した人がいた企業は23.2％だった。
  - reallyeli 2y ago
    Hmm thanks — what about the historical trend numbers? > "上半期（2024年1月～6月）に退職代行サービスを利用して退職した人がいた企業は23.2％だった。また、過去の退職代行利用者の実績を年度別に聞くと、2021年は16.3％、2022年は19.5％、2023年は19.9％" These seem like full-year numbers, but they're much lower than what I'd expect if 23.2% is the half-year number — implying a huge jump in 2024?
    - 0sp 2y ago
      I think there is a possibility that this year's figures will be significantly higher. The resignation agency service was widely reported in Japanese media in the first half of this year, which made its existence known to the public. This trend can also be confirmed on Google Trends[1]. In fact, the representative of 退職代行モームリ (Taishoku-daikō Mōmuri), the largest resignation agency company, stated in an interview that the number of users during this year's onboarding season was ten times that of last year[2]. [1] https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%E9%80%80%E8%81%B7%E4%BB%A3%E8%A1%8C https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=... [2] https://nikkan-spa.jp/1996502 https://nikkan-spa.jp/1996502
j45 2y ago
Wow, I thought running a business was supposed to be the only job you can't quit because it's the job you pay to own.
bamboozled 2y ago
For anyone going through anything like this, one letter from a lawyer will turn everything around in minutes and in Japan, legal advice is fairly affordable.
cameldrv 2y ago
I don't get why these companies would want to keep employing someone who has stated that they want to quit.
- wruza 2y ago
  Same. It’s over, you won’t get performance or loyalty above some cold baseline, while still paying for the most expensive class of resources. What’s the point even? I can guess that maybe it’s a well-known cultural thing that only prevents people of this culture to think about leaving. A sort of a group control thing.
- twelve40 2y ago
  if I was a douchebag boss, I would manipulate them into staying then publicly reprimand and fire them shortly thereafter to come out a "winner" in the situation. I haven't seen managers stoop that low yet, but state-side I've seen managers take extreme personal offense and paranoia about team morale when there was even one flight risk on the horizon. (omg they didn't even pay $100k for their once-in-a-lifetime chance to exercise our magic stock!)
  - master-lincoln 2y ago
    Where I live, getting fired entails getting severance. Something you don't get when quitting. I would rather be fired then to quit myself...
- jalapenos 2y ago
  If your dog, which is your property, decided it just wanted to go live across the street instead, would you just shrug and say OK? That's basically their mindset.
unscaled 2y ago
I think the real percentage of employees using a resignation agency is probably lower than 18.6%. Internet surveys tend to be less accurate and I don't know the methodology they've used to select the 800 or so participants. But companies bullying employees on resignation seems to be a bigger issue than I thought.
snvzz 2y ago
The administration's response should be to make it a trivial task, online, via mynumber card system. So you click here and there in the comfort of your home, insert your card, enter pin and done.
paweladamczuk 2y ago
The posting's title is misleading. 1 in 5 Japanese workers in their 20s WHO RESIGN turn to resignation agencies.
alkonaut 2y ago
I don't understand, what really constitutes a "won't let me quit" scenario? If I hand in my resignation, I don't really care whether my employer rips it or not. I consider my contract terminated because it's a contract that can be terminated by either party to the contract. If I have a notice period, I'll work that period, then stop showing up. If they want to consider the contract as still valid, they can. And then they'd have to pay me, but I don't see why they would if I'm not turning up to work? There must be something in the above reasoning that isn't correct?
- bsaul 2y ago
  You probably wouldn't also give your letter of resignation with your knees on the floor, asking the boss to "forgive me because i failed you", right ? Yes, japan is a whole different mentality, with a completely different set of values and social norms ( mostly focused on "don't show disrespect to others", and "don't embarrass yourself"). Traveling from japan to the US/Hawaii was probably where i experienced the largest culture shock (and not in a flattering way for americans). It felt like going from civilization to barbaric lands. On the other hand i can see why some japanese people can't handle that much pressure on their everyday behavior and prefer the western mentality at some point in their life.
- pizza234 2y ago
  Related comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42169771 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42169771: > "I can't quit the job. If I say I'm going to quit, I'll be threatened that I will have to pay damages for quitting."
- usea 2y ago
  Imagine you have a strong deference to authority and an incredible fear of confrontation. It would be very easy for someone in a position of authority to take advantage of you. People don't always do what's in their best interest. People talk to the police without a lawyer all the time. People sign away their rights just because they don't want to push back on things. It takes guts to stand up for yourself.
- kelnos 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

Can anyone in Japan share what ground truth looks like around this? Does this churn matter to businesses when they’re in a labor supply shortage? Do these folks have other jobs they’re moving to? Or are they potentially NEETs bailing on being employed?

Seb-C 2y ago
This definitely exists, even when switching jobs. However I would say that IMO it's another case of foreigners buzzing by depicting boring and common stuff under a "weird Japan" light. Shitty companies manipulating employees to stop them from resigning is something that exists in any country. And this escalating to the labor authorities or going through a lawyer is not a rare thing anywhere either. It happens more frequently in Japan because the culture of not being confrontational is strong. The fact that lawyers can afford to specialize in this matter alone is just a logical result of the larger number of customers. EDIT: I also want to add this: if you have been in a company for a while, you are eventually going to see or hear about how resignation is handled for other employees. If you want to quit and already know that the company is going to harrass you and make your life hell, is it so weird to save your time and mental health to delegate all of that to a dedicated professional?
- School-Cotton 2y ago
  > Shitty companies manipulating employees to stop them from resigning is something that exists in any country. I have never heard of it in the US. I’m sure some examples exist but I’d be really unpleasantly surprised if it’s a major social issue here.
  - travisgriggs 2y ago
    Amen. IMO, it's an tortured example of Hanlons Razor: Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity. I see tons of shitty stuff roll downwards to employees in US companies, but I never see the kind of competence at the upper levels to pull off the kind of manipulation implied here. It's just negligence, ignorance, and dysfunctionality that tends to screw us yanks at the bottom.
  - gampleman 2y ago
    And what do you think a broad non-compete clause is? The goal is the same, just the means are different.
    - hiatus 2y ago
      Does a non-compete prevent you from leaving your current employer?
    - 0xBDB 2y ago
      > And what do you think a broad non-compete clause is? Pretty universally illegal. California doesn't have noncompete clauses at all. Texas, the state I'm most familiar with, doesn't allow them to be enforced except for skills that are proprietary to an employer, .e.g., supporting specific software in a specific way or something. Pretty sure most states that have them are the same. Making burgers isn't going to do it, and nobody would sue you over it anyway, they'd sue the new employer whose lawyers will know better. I have had an employer try to get me to sign an illegal noncompete before, but that was because it was a small employer who didn't know the law. When I quit I politely informed him that it was unenforceable. He didn't try. That doesn't mean employers who know better don't try to intimidate employees, but they could just as easily threaten to break your kneecaps. Probably they won't.
      - gampleman 2y ago
        So is this practice in Japan, but it happens there just as overly broad non-competes happen in the west. And probably in both cases if you are a well informed person in a position with decent labour demand you can deal with that sort of a problem without much trouble yourself. But if you are in a much weaker position, then having some form of outside assistance available is invaluable.
- TulliusCicero 2y ago
  Does it? You hear stories in the US of people trying to manipulate employees into not quitting or lambasting them for leaving, but trying to actually, seriously deny their ability to quit is nearly unheard of.
  - Ekaros 2y ago
    They would absolutely do that if contracts would be stronger. But as they want to keep their ease of firing and laying off people, contracts are weak in both direction.
  - 3D30497420 2y ago
    I don't recall seeing examples in the US of directly preventing someone from resigning. But I have read about situations where companies make it harder to get the next job, essentially forcing someone to stay in a bad work situation. For example, non-competes for service jobs (fast-food, hairdressers, etc.)
  - rightbyte 2y ago
    For agricultural workers it is quite common with 'we safekeep your passport for you' and similar schemes. I think foreign workers are more exploited in general but outside of the cities it is way harder to escape such employers.
- fzeroracer 2y ago
  > Shitty companies manipulating employees to stop them from resigning is something that exists in any country. And this escalating to the labor authorities or going through a lawyer is not a rare thing anywhere either. It is? In what other countries are we talking about here where a company escalates to the labor authorities to prevent you from quitting? Usually this kind of thing is reserved to harass visa holders, not native workers.
  - Seb-C 2y ago
    I mean that the employees escalates it, not the companies.
Aeolun 2y ago
Based on what I’ve seen and heard (luckily, not experienced), I think it depends on the company. Smaller ones with older management may be both more reliant on the labor and more used to lifetime employment. I suspect there’s probably some maximal fuckiness point. Most companies aren’t like that, but resignation in Japan has a lot of stigma even if everything goes well, so many people will use these services just so they don’t have to deal with it. The way the culture works there’s no way for the managers to be anything but unfailingly polite to an external party that calls to resign on behalf of the employee.
rjh29 2y ago
My gf used one. She had a legal right to quit but it was inconvenient for the company. They refused multiple times, they also gaslit with "what about the children we teach, if you leave the school might have to close" etc. etc. Using the agency means you do a 10 minute phone call and that's it. You don't even have to work your remaining days or talk to the company ever again. The agencies seem to have some legal powers that a normal person doesn't, or at least in reality they get results much faster and aren't allowed to screw around. What did amuse me is there's a discount if you use them multiple times.
- rkagerer 2y ago
  Is that "gaslighting" or simply plain old guilt tripping?
  - rjh29 2y ago
    You're right, thanks for the correction.
- DonsDiscountGas 2y ago
  > The agencies seem to have some legal powers that a normal person doesn't I suspect the power that they have is actually knowing the law. Also by hiring one the employee has shown they are willing to hire a lawyer, so the employer can't bluff with legal threats. And very few employees are actually going to be worth the trouble to sue
- jalapenos 2y ago
  The special powers are probably the following sentence: "sure, you could sue; also, we could check more closely for labor law violations; which would you like?".
indrora 2y ago
A friend of mine recently went through the typical US process of interviewing while he was in a job (Always take the chance to say you're "tending to your elderly family" or some such in these situations) and landed a new position, though it would mean moving from Kyoto to outside Kumamoto. This was at a Major Electronics Vendor that is known internationally and who produces... "Entertainment devices". He walked up to his boss, handed his letter of resignation in, and was told "No, you're too critical to this project, I can't accept this." His response was to say "If I'm too critical to this project then you have failed in your duties as a manager, and it would be very inconvenient for you to have to admit that, so you're going to let me go or I'll make it Very Inconvenient for you by telling the whole team you think they're idiots and that the foreigner is the only reason this release will succeed." He then didn't show up for a month (new job gave him enough time to take a nice, lengthy 3-month vacation to Korea and back) and his old boss kept calling and sms'ing him... On a number he only used for that job.

wrs 2y ago

So how is it the company can “refuse to let them quit” or “force” an employee to go to a temple? What is the actual enforcement mechanism other than guilt?

evan_ 2y ago
Withholding a letter of recommendation maybe? If the culture truly is such that you get a job in your early 20s and stay there until you retire or die, then presumably a job seeker in their 30s would be virtually unhireable without a good explanation.
- prisonality 2y ago
  In that case, I don't think Resignation Agencies could help to get them to spit out letter of recommendation. But the again - these agencies might be solving an entirely different problem.
lmm 2y ago
Japanese companies have some culture of bullying and harassment. The laws against it are limited and enforcement is toothless. But yeah, it's mostly ultimately a lack of courage from the employees in question.
- presentation 2y ago
  It’s definitely illegal, labor rights are pretty strong in Japan. I think your typical Japanese person is just very compliant when faced with an uncomfortable situation and bad bosses abuse that dynamic.
  - lmm 2y ago
    > It’s definitely illegal, labor rights are pretty strong in Japan. In some ways they are. Notably Japan has no concept of constructive dismissal, and companies have a pretty broad right to assign work and even to assign someone to work at a faraway office. There may be some anti-harassment law on the books, but it's very hard to get anything recognised under it, and if someone is just constantly assigned bad work, or no work, they have very little recourse. And even if you could win a lawsuit, Japan doesn't do punitive damages or damages for emotional distress. So you'd be able to claim, maybe, lost wages for your time out of work, and... that's probably it.

StanislavPetrov 2y ago

In my 20s I had a boss who said he wouldn't accept my resignation, so I stopped showing up. Works every time.

t2o34234234234 2y ago
[flagged]
unnouinceput 2y ago
Do that in Japan and you're gonna be unemployed forever. You'll either open your own business (fat chance of that succeeding) or move abroad (again, with what money in your 20's?).
- rjh29 2y ago
  Yeah, that's why these agencies exist. Use them and you can literally stop showing up to work and still get all your required documents, with no hassle.
- jalapenos 2y ago
  Right, you'll be unemployed forever, in a country with a labor shortage. Sounds legit.

MarketingJason 2y ago

Reading this, I was assuming that this behavior was enforced by reference checks for new hires being commonplace. However, the few sources I found in a quick search make it seem like asking/requiring references is a more recent practice due to western influence. I'd guess it's just guilt and shame?

lr4444lr 2y ago
I too was struggling to understand the problem described herr: does unilaterally quitting a job actually harm the employee's future employment prospects inside Japan, or is the problem here just a matter of culturally enforced social stigma?
- rtpg 2y ago
  There are documents that your former employer often needs to provide you for stuff like health insurance. And now suddenly it's some direct confrontation to get a document, while your future employer (Who could still just let you go!) is asking you for a document to move forward. So you're facing a bunch of time pressure in gnarly cases, without many people around to help you out. There are procedures to get around this stuff but since it's not the common case, when it does happen suddenly you get to learn about labor law. I think anywhere in the world, when there is active antagonism causing bureaucracy to not be able to move forward, most people freeze up like a deer caught in headlights. Turns out that being a sociopath can be quite helpful for exploiting workers!
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    Sometimes I wonder what a society would look like if they could very reliably identify sociopathy at an early age, and then either euthanize those people or at least blacklist them so they can never have any job higher than a janitor. Would such a society work better than current societies? Or would it be like that episode of Star Trek where Kirk gets split into good and bad versions, and the good version was too ineffectual to be a decent captain without his bad side?

asdasdsddd 2y ago

It's insane how successful Japan is in spite of their corporate inefficiencies.

adamc 2y ago
It's fascinating and makes me want to know more about how the culture works.
- latentsea 2y ago
  It works by having it beaten into for you several decades of your childhood that you don't speak up, you put the groups first, and appearances trump reality. I don't necessarily think it's any better or any worse than western culture. My perspective is "it just has different failure modes".
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    Yes, a large part of why Japanese society appears (and in fact performs) so perfect is because of an absolute fear of shame. From the moment you are born you are taught to care about what and how others think and feel about you and your conduct. If it's not your social peers, it's the literal Sun ("Otentou-sama") looking down upon you and judging your every single moment. If you shame yourself, you also bring shame upon your family and your ancestors both living and dead. To be clear: This does work, and most Japanese are happy to serve society rather than feel compelled to do so at threat of cancellation. There are also benefits for the compliant, namely in the form of social safety nets both legal and social to ensure a minimum standard of living. Japanese expats are a particular bunch, they left Japan because they couldn't stand the shaming and strict adherence to social codes. A kind of "you can't fire me if I quit" response.
  - Escapado 2y ago
    Agreed and I would add to the list the ungodly amount of hours they work. I know per hour they might not be as productive (or simply held back by antiquated processes within their companies) but they seem to make up for it in part by working so much overtime.

tdeck 2y ago

> Some companies are notorious for resignation difficulties, excessive overtime and intense work pressure. So much so that they are labeled as “black companies.” The problem has become so severe that Japan’s Ministry of Health, Labour and Welfare’s Labor Standards Bureau has published a list of these companies to warn potential job seekers. If only they were in a position to do something about it.

ThrowawayTestr 2y ago
They published a list, what more do you want?

grose 2y ago

Recently I someone living in Japan on Reddit who experienced a "they won't let me quit" scenario which may provide some perspective on what it's like: https://www.reddit.com/r/japanlife/comments/1gk4enr/current_job_refusing_to_go_forward_with/ https://www.reddit.com/r/japanlife/comments/1gk4enr/current_... https://www.reddit.com/r/japanlife/comments/1goyw04/end_of_a_saga_job_refusing_to_go_forward_with/ https://www.reddit.com/r/japanlife/comments/1goyw04/end_of_a... Personally (living in Japan) I've never experienced something like this, but it does happen.

presentation 2y ago
Yeah nobody I know has told me they’ve experienced this, but maybe it’s common amongst some groups and not others. Black companies are something else.
intellix 2y ago
why can't you just email them and stop turning up?
- Aeolun 2y ago
  It’ll become messy if they keep paying you?
- makeitdouble 2y ago
  Typical contracts will require a 1 month period between you announce you're quitting and you effective termination date. If you have enough paid vacation you could pad that period with your vacation, but it requires pre-acceptance, so cooperation from your employer. Otherwise you're into non-accepted vacation territory, which could lead to financial penalties (basically withdrawing your salary, with potential tax adjustements. They could also try to sue you, and given you're fleeing assume they'd get a default judgement for instance) Then there's all the paperwork you actually want to have properly done by your employer. They're legally obligated to, but it's always harder if you're in adversarial mode. All in all, you can still quit cold turkey ("bakkure"), but that's a usually a PITA. Getting a pro to negociate a clean separation will be better than just disappearing, if you're not in the mood/capacity to face your employer. PS; There are magical words that would give any employee an immediate option to never see their employer again. I don't want them in my comments, but anyone interested will find them with a simple search.

yieldcrv 2y ago

I could flip that culture on its head

tho234ui2o343 2y ago

[flagged]

neilv 2y ago

> Those fortunate enough to leave are sometimes asked to send apology letters to colleagues or deliver speeches expressing regret for their “selfishness” and “disrespect.” Of course, these are the most extreme cases–but they do occur, according to Momuri. So, not that much different mindset than a US startup founder who takes 70% equity, while offering the first hire 0.5% to 2% in options (vesting over 4 years, with exercise rules that further discourage ever getting any equity at all)? (Edit: Fastest downvoting I've ever seen on HN. :)

rjh29 2y ago
The "selfishness"/"disrespect" is literally just politeness, the person writing it is often not genuinely thinking this, and the people reading it also know it's bullshit. Journalists should stop directly translating Japanese as the nuance is lost.

bargainbot3k 2y ago

Sounds like the issues around dating, marriage and children aren’t really cut and dry in Japan. The population crisis isn’t a “just so” thing. The society optimized for one set of criteria but is buckling under others.

reallyeli 2y ago

The survey (https://career-research.mynavi.jp/reserch/20241003_86953/ https://career-research.mynavi.jp/reserch/20241003_86953/) which is the basis for the 1 in 5 claim seems sus, I would bet it's not true. (I don't read Japanese, but had Claude read it for me; if someone who does read Japanese could confirm, that would be interesting.) They say 16.6% of people who changed jobs last year used these services, but only 23.2% of companies report having any employees use them. If 16.6% is correct, the % of companies number should be much higher, supposing companies have multiple resignations per year. The method for the first number on how they found their respondents is described just as "internet survey," with no further info. There are a lot of ways to do this that would over-sample people who use these services.

mahoho 2y ago
I'm not gonna read the whole thing but the 23.2% is only for the first half of the year 上半期（2024年1月～6月）に退職代行サービスを利用して退職した人がいた企業は23.2％だった。
- reallyeli 2y ago
  Hmm thanks — what about the historical trend numbers? > "上半期（2024年1月～6月）に退職代行サービスを利用して退職した人がいた企業は23.2％だった。また、過去の退職代行利用者の実績を年度別に聞くと、2021年は16.3％、2022年は19.5％、2023年は19.9％" These seem like full-year numbers, but they're much lower than what I'd expect if 23.2% is the half-year number — implying a huge jump in 2024?
  - 0sp 2y ago
    I think there is a possibility that this year's figures will be significantly higher. The resignation agency service was widely reported in Japanese media in the first half of this year, which made its existence known to the public. This trend can also be confirmed on Google Trends[1]. In fact, the representative of 退職代行モームリ (Taishoku-daikō Mōmuri), the largest resignation agency company, stated in an interview that the number of users during this year's onboarding season was ten times that of last year[2]. [1] https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=%E9%80%80%E8%81%B7%E4%BB%A3%E8%A1%8C https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=... [2] https://nikkan-spa.jp/1996502 https://nikkan-spa.jp/1996502

j45 2y ago

Wow, I thought running a business was supposed to be the only job you can't quit because it's the job you pay to own.

bamboozled 2y ago

For anyone going through anything like this, one letter from a lawyer will turn everything around in minutes and in Japan, legal advice is fairly affordable.

cameldrv 2y ago

I don't get why these companies would want to keep employing someone who has stated that they want to quit.

wruza 2y ago
Same. It’s over, you won’t get performance or loyalty above some cold baseline, while still paying for the most expensive class of resources. What’s the point even? I can guess that maybe it’s a well-known cultural thing that only prevents people of this culture to think about leaving. A sort of a group control thing.
twelve40 2y ago
if I was a douchebag boss, I would manipulate them into staying then publicly reprimand and fire them shortly thereafter to come out a "winner" in the situation. I haven't seen managers stoop that low yet, but state-side I've seen managers take extreme personal offense and paranoia about team morale when there was even one flight risk on the horizon. (omg they didn't even pay $100k for their once-in-a-lifetime chance to exercise our magic stock!)
- master-lincoln 2y ago
  Where I live, getting fired entails getting severance. Something you don't get when quitting. I would rather be fired then to quit myself...
jalapenos 2y ago
If your dog, which is your property, decided it just wanted to go live across the street instead, would you just shrug and say OK? That's basically their mindset.

unscaled 2y ago

I think the real percentage of employees using a resignation agency is probably lower than 18.6%. Internet surveys tend to be less accurate and I don't know the methodology they've used to select the 800 or so participants. But companies bullying employees on resignation seems to be a bigger issue than I thought.

snvzz 2y ago

The administration's response should be to make it a trivial task, online, via mynumber card system. So you click here and there in the comfort of your home, insert your card, enter pin and done.

paweladamczuk 2y ago

The posting's title is misleading. 1 in 5 Japanese workers in their 20s WHO RESIGN turn to resignation agencies.

alkonaut 2y ago

I don't understand, what really constitutes a "won't let me quit" scenario? If I hand in my resignation, I don't really care whether my employer rips it or not. I consider my contract terminated because it's a contract that can be terminated by either party to the contract. If I have a notice period, I'll work that period, then stop showing up. If they want to consider the contract as still valid, they can. And then they'd have to pay me, but I don't see why they would if I'm not turning up to work? There must be something in the above reasoning that isn't correct?

bsaul 2y ago
You probably wouldn't also give your letter of resignation with your knees on the floor, asking the boss to "forgive me because i failed you", right ? Yes, japan is a whole different mentality, with a completely different set of values and social norms ( mostly focused on "don't show disrespect to others", and "don't embarrass yourself"). Traveling from japan to the US/Hawaii was probably where i experienced the largest culture shock (and not in a flattering way for americans). It felt like going from civilization to barbaric lands. On the other hand i can see why some japanese people can't handle that much pressure on their everyday behavior and prefer the western mentality at some point in their life.
pizza234 2y ago
Related comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42169771 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42169771: > "I can't quit the job. If I say I'm going to quit, I'll be threatened that I will have to pay damages for quitting."
usea 2y ago
Imagine you have a strong deference to authority and an incredible fear of confrontation. It would be very easy for someone in a position of authority to take advantage of you. People don't always do what's in their best interest. People talk to the police without a lawyer all the time. People sign away their rights just because they don't want to push back on things. It takes guts to stand up for yourself.
kelnos 2y ago

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