11 ms·

The brain summons deep sleep for healing from life-threatening injury

366 points by gmays 2y ago

AIFounder 2y ago
[dead]
rramadass 2y ago
Timely and Important article. In this day and age where you have limitless distractions/entertainment we often ignore our "less sexy" biological needs to the detriment of our mind and body. We need to treat Sleep/Nap/Rest as a "job" and not as something extraneous. Instead of the current practice of arranging our biological needs around our work we should revert back to pre-industrial era practices where our work was arranged around our biological needs and nature's rhythms. A good way to start is to eat only when feeling hungry, nap/sleep when feeling tired/sleepy and in general listen to the body/mind needs irrespective of context.
- cassianoleal 2y ago
  This is spot on. These things are a delicate balance as well. When I sleep well, I can control my feeding patterns much better. When I eat well, I tend to sleep better. Exercise affects both of those, and is affected back. Work is constantly nudging this balance in the wrong direction, putting us into a vicious cycle of accelerated death and suffering. I may be making this sound worse than it feels though, probably because I'm writing this in between bouts of high fever. I honestly can't complain all that much from the life I lead but I do wish I could make it work much better around my physiological needs.
  - rramadass 2y ago
    You might find some of my previous comments useful too; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40978488 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40978488 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41538322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41538322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38445883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38445883
    - cassianoleal 2y ago
      Thanks. I upvoted you because this is all great advice. I'm politely going to decline it though. Not because I don't think it's valuable but mostly because I already have alternatives to achieve those results that I know work better for myself. Unfortunately right now I don't have the time to follow through with most of it. Life happens, and right now it just happens to be happening more or less all at once. Urgency trumps priority. Furthermore, I'm a night owl. I have at different times in my life tried to change it. I followed all the advice I could find (including a lot of the things you mention). Ultimately, if I have to wake up early in the morning for work, I might end up with a cycle of 8h on the first night, with some luck another 8h, then it goes down to 6-5h, 2h and in some occasions an all nighter to top if off. My current sleep deprived cycle is one of relatively regular 5-6h per night. It's not very good but mostly because of the time I have to be awake. If I could wake up at 9:30-10:00 every day, I would be able to sleep those 5-6h per night and be in top shape. I know because I've done it for a few months in the past. I was at top physical and mental shape, consistently. Waking up at 7:00-8:00, even if I could sustain 7-8h per night, I'd still be sleepy, tired and unfocused for the most part. My brain suffers and so does my body. At this point I just decided to accept light sleep deprivation vs. the worse alternatives.
      - rramadass 2y ago
        I suggest you watch Dr. Satchin Panda's (he is the Circadian Rhythms researcher) videos (they are short TEDx ones) at the minimum. He gives a simple 6-step process which you might find very relevant.
        cassianoleal 2y ago
        Thanks, I'll try to find the time.
        hackernewds 2y ago
        You seem to have a pretty reserved attitude about this. And I hope you are doing okay.
  - agumonkey 2y ago
    Saw a video few days ago from someone saying that two people with the same diet but one having a bad sleep regime would make the low sleep person gain weight and lose muscle.
    - hackernewds 2y ago
      Sleep (specifically recovery) is also an important part of building muscle mass
  - steveoscaro 2y ago
    “I can control my feeding patterns” I find this to be a disturbing way to describe eating
    - cassianoleal 2y ago
      You're free to not use it, I guess.
- BizarroLand 2y ago
  Note, though, that people with eating disorders can easily not feel hungry for days at a time for no reason or conversely never not feel hungry no matter how much they have eaten. Some people with depression or C/PTSD can sleep 14+ hours a day and not feel rested. Many people are so dysregulated that "listening to their bodies" and "embracing what is natural" are potentially self-destructive activities. So, keep your own body's limitations in mind. If you are affected by something that has pushed you off the track, at the very least, be aware of it before you go charging full steam ahead.
  - rramadass 2y ago
    First, see some of my previous comments linked to here for background - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42138469 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42138469 What you are pointing out are extreme cases which is generally a small subset. So before jumping to this conclusion one should first setup one's daily life around circadian/natural rhythms and in general establish a healthy relationship between ourselves and the environment we are embedded in. This is fundamental to everything else. In fact many doctors themselves are now saying that drugs are overprescribed and you don't need them for most (not all) cases. Watch the following documentaries; 1) The Doctor Who Gave Up Drugs (Medical Documentary) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_ggnhpGvvA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_ggnhpGvvA 2) The Truth About the Medical Industry | The Doctor Who Gave Up Drugs | Part 2 | Documentary Central - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33RuKhr9pag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33RuKhr9pag
    - BizarroLand 2y ago
      I'm not going to take unsolicited homework from this site, especially one that is pushing an agenda in response to a statement that is clearly positive but cautious in response to your previous statement.
      - rramadass 2y ago
        You misunderstood. There is no agenda here but merely sharing something which for some reason doesn't seem to be more commonly known/understood. When it comes to "General Health" (both Mental/Physical) people forget that one can do a lot with what is already known (from empirical practice over generations and modern science) and with the exercise of a little bit of commonsense.
- yazzku 2y ago
  Who would've thought that sleep is good for you, right? Apparently we needed several million dollars in research to find out. > The findings, published today in Nature, could help to guide care for people after a heart attack, This is just hilarious. Remember to get enough sleep after a life-threatening heart attack, folks! But your comment resonates very much with me. I am tired of this capitalist culture that reduces the human essence to value output and shames people for not pretending to be working hard enough. Part of the reason I like working from home is that I can take that fucking 20-minute nap after lunch and be infinitely more productive throughout the rest of the day.
  - op00to 2y ago
    > This is just hilarious. Remember to get enough sleep after a life-threatening heart attack, folks! Is it better to prioritize low-impact exercise or sleep after a heart attack? There's plenty of interesting angles to investigate.
    - rramadass 2y ago
      Not specific to "after a heart attack" but IME while both are important Sleep is much more important than Exercise. Anecdata: I spent a decade as caregiver/caretaker for my late Mother who refused to do any exercises except the absolute necessary ones which a doctor would ask her to do for a specific cause eg. back pain, breathing exercises etc. As soon as that symptom alleviated she would abandon the exercises. So i encouraged her to take long naps whenever she felt sleepy and it helped keep her mental faculties sharp and physically feel spry (within limits of course). You Asked: Is It Better to Sleep In Or Work Out? - https://time.com/3914773/exercise-sleep-fitness/ https://time.com/3914773/exercise-sleep-fitness/ Quote: But when pressed to choose one that’s more important, Mah grudgingly decides on sleep. “Sleep is foundational,” she says.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I do think it is sad that people are so out of touch with their bodies and the idea of self ownership that they need an authority figure to instruct such simple tasks. I think there is a huge component of trained helplessness resulting from consumerist culture and social subservience.
- pengaru 2y ago
  > A good way to start is to eat only when feeling hungry LOL, that's what everyone riding the "western diet" blood sugar roller coaster is already doing. If the diet doesn't reflect the environment our biological needs evolved in, acting without self discipline, eating based on how you feel, is a sure path to obesity, diabetes, and NAFLD. Horrible advice.
  - rramadass 2y ago
    If you take that advice in isolation while your Diet is shit, of course it is not applicable. If you want a little more detailed overview see my previous comments here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42138469 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42138469
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I think the charitable interpretation is that they're drawing a distinction between physical hunger and emotional hunger. I "feel" like I could go for a bacon cheeseburger basically 24s hours today. I feel like I could eat another right after I finished the first. All of that is emotional. That is pretty different than symptoms true physical hunger. My stomach starts to grumble after 24 hours without food. After about 48 hours I feel lethargic and cognitively disordered. I think that a majority of Americans confuse the two because it has been years or even decades since they actually experienced the symptoms of insufficient calorie intake
    - batch12 2y ago
      For me the best change was when I got used to feeling peckish most of the time. I feel better when I am slightly hungry than after I eat, especially if it's a large meal. With that feeling as my baseline, I really can tell when I need to eat.
    - rramadass 2y ago
      Yes, i meant "Physical Hunger" with an implicit proper and healthy Diet. The point was that one need not eat according to a wall clock and lifestyle choices.
  - 2y ago
- interludead 2y ago
  Treating sleep, rest, and even meals as part of the “job” of taking care of yourself is a powerful shift in mindset.
  - rramadass 2y ago
    Exactly! With modern medicine people are living longer but their quality of life becomes so bad it is not worth it. Health IS Wealth!
    - interludead 2y ago
      It's not just about living longer but living well
  - kibwen 2y ago
    Exercise too. Sleeping and eating are comparatively easy because they're pleasurable activities (well, eating properly isn't always pleasurable, but it's still not unpleasant). But exercise is physically stressful and often unpleasant. Doesn't matter, taking care of this body is my duty.
    - interludead 2y ago
      Totally agree! Exercise can feel like the hardest part sometimes.
- agumonkey 2y ago
  I believe the 2000s-* are causing lots of subtle yet deep issues. High availability, high throughput, non linear .. all the current trends are not aligned with a good / happy life.
  - oersted 2y ago
    There has been a strong trend towards async communication though, which does help a lot. Before it was all phone calls, in-person interactions, live TV and Radio... Both for work and leisure, now you have more options than ever to take things at your own pace rather than letting external factors dictate how you arrange your time. I think we hit peak "speed of life" in the late 20th century to be honest, much of this is grass-is-greener thinking, we have made great progress in terms of day-to-day personal freedom. Life has never really matched this idilic ideal of the village farmer. Things were very rough for most of history, everyone was constantly stressed to keep up with their minimal necessities to live, it was not in any way relaxed. And the industrial revolution hit ~250 years ago, with much more strict schedules and much longer work days. This is not a recent phenomenon in the least.
    - rramadass 2y ago
      > Things were very rough for most of history, everyone was constantly stressed to keep up with their minimal necessities to live, it was not in any way relaxed. I have heard this argument many times before but it is mostly not true. Most village farmers do lead a more relaxed and relatively stress-free life. You just need to visit/observe/interact with them to see the difference. The main reason is the difference between Acute Stress vs. Chronic Stress. Chronic Stress has what has exploded exponentially in urban areas after the Industrial Revolution and the current IT Industry has made it even worse. There are just too many things to juggle all the time each of which has a deadline with consequences (because process and efficiency) however trivial it might be in the larger scheme of things. The farmer doesn't have that many things to worry over and so only has episodic bursts of Acute Stress over truly consequential things the management of which is easier. Another related point is that the farmer does live closer and more entwined with Nature than urban folks and this has been shown to be better for psychological health. We are evolved to interact with Nature and not isolate ourselves in a concrete jungle and grey cubicles.
- tombert 2y ago
  I've snored since I was a teenager, but didn't think much about it. I met my wife about 11 years ago, and she said that I would do a kind of disturbing "stop breathing" thing when I slept pretty shortly after we met, and I didn't think much about it then either. About a year ago, I decided to see a doctor and it turns out that I have sleep apnea; after a bit of finagling I managed to get a specialized oral appliance, I sleep much better. I don't snore anymore, my blood-oxygen levels stay in the green level, and my wife says my breathing during the night is pretty normal. Now I'm mad at myself for waiting so long to do anything about it. Pretty much everything in my life got about 10-20% easier after I started getting proper sleep. I think a bit clearer, I process conversations a bit better, I'm able to focus on tasks a little easier. It didn't magically "solve" all my problems, but it did make them a lot easier to work around.
AnthonBerg 2y ago
The actual paper is pretty wild, and makes sense from what I know: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08100-w https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08100-w TNF-alpha promoting sleep is a surprise but it… makes sense. Somehow.
- pazimzadeh 2y ago
  It is kind of surprising. I wonder what happens in people who are on anti-TNFa. Maybe the antibody doesn't cross the blood brain barrier though.
  - spondylosaurus 2y ago
    I had this question as well. Anecdotally, I've been on various anti-TNFa drugs for the past three or four years, and I feel like my sleep hasn't been impacted (and if anything has improved). Definitely no insomnia. I can nap like a champ!
    - AnthonBerg 2y ago
      It’s suuuuper interesting, right? I tried tossing “tnf-alpha inhibitor insomnia” into Google Scholar. Scanning the results I didn’t feel a “signal” in the papers that TNF-alpha inhibitors cause insomnia—which I wouldn’t expect either due to TNF inhibitor antibody size, right? But! There are tons of very interesting papers in the results behind those keywords. With multiple perspectives. Fruitful combo of keywords, you know? Google Scholar is unusually non-deterministic in what it returns for a given search. You probably won’t see the same papers as I did but it’s an interesting search: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=tnf%2Dalpha%20inhibitor%20insomnia https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=tnf%2Dalpha%20inhibitor... This paper stood out a bit: Inhibition of tumor necrosis factor improves sleep continuity in patients with treatment resistant depression and high inflammation (2015) Authors, full list as I have it in the buffer: Jeremy F. Weinberger, Charles L. Raison, David B. Rye, Amy R. Montague, Bobbi J. Woolwine, Jennifer C. Felger, Ebrahim Haroon, Andrew H. Miller — Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Department of Neurology, Emory University School of Medicine, Atlanta, GA https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889159114006059 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088915911... First thoughts: TNF—alpha signaling becomes unfocused? TNF-alpha release outside the CNS affects receptor sensitivity or other downstream mechanisms that do straddle the blood-brain barrier?
SoftTalker 2y ago
I've found that after a hard workout at the gym I sleep better and longer. That's certainly not a life-threatening injury but working out to exhaustion does create micro-injuries to muscle tissues which then have to heal (leading to growth).
- mattgreenrocks 2y ago
  Yep, I usually average more deep sleep (10-15m) during times of regular workouts. I typically fall asleep much faster as well, though I don't typically have issues with that.
- enjoylife 2y ago
  I vividly remember the difference intense hockey conditioning camps, sleep and recovery can cause. During these camp I pushed my heart, with many drills being 30+ seconds at max heart rate. Afterwards I was exhausted, chest felt terrible. But I was so tired, I didn’t have the usual movements at night, and had much longer deep sleep. The recovery the next day was so dramatic compared to prior workout sessions. Way less inflammation across my joints. As compared to sessions where I only pushed my heart rate to 30-60%
generalizations 2y ago
Also interesting: deep sleep therapy where you keep the patient asleep for days or weeks. Mixed results back then; I imagine they didn't have good ways to differentiate the patients who would be helped vs harmed by the therapy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_sleep_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_sleep_therapy
- rramadass 2y ago
  There is also the "Non-Sleep Deep Rest" (NSDR) technique which seems to be getting some good traction; 1) Non-Sleep Deep Rest (NSDR): Exploring a World Beyond Sleep - https://positivepsychology.com/non-sleep-deep-rest-nsdr/ https://positivepsychology.com/non-sleep-deep-rest-nsdr/ 2) NSDR, Meditation and Breathwork - https://www.hubermanlab.com/topics/nsdr-meditation-and-breathwork https://www.hubermanlab.com/topics/nsdr-meditation-and-breat... 3) Neuroscience of Sleep - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sleep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sleep
  - FullKirby 2y ago
    Thanks for sharing this.
pglevy 2y ago
One thing that stuck with me from the book Stroke of Insight (memoir of brain scientist who has and recovers from stroke) was how intently she prioritized sleep when everyone else kept trying to drag her out of bed. In a more mundane context, I've been fortunate to organize my schedule such that I don't use an alarm to get up in the morning. So I can let my body figure out how much sleep I need.
- burningChrome 2y ago
  >> So I can let my body figure out how much sleep I need. This is why my doctor advised (during a bout of insomnia a few years ago) not to use those "blackout" shades. They completely confuse your brain. My doctor said to sleep with the blinds open so your body can naturally reset its clock with the sunrise and sunset. Thankfully, this was in the Summer in a midwestern state, so I got back on track, but I still had to make some adjustments when daylight savings and Winter started. Your strategy was the other recommendation my doctor said to use. Anything that allows your body to naturally find its biorhythm is the best.
  - aliasxneo 2y ago
    What happens when the sun sets at 18:00 in the winter? I like the idea, but I feel like most people won't go to bed that early, and use artificial lights to go about their evening, thus negating a lot of the effort. Or am I misunderstanding? Context: I struggle with insomnia and use blackout shades.
    - qazxcvbnmlp 2y ago
      Artificial lights also interfere with sleep. If you’ve ever been 100% off grid, or even a place where you have minimal phone usage and little artificial light you will feel sleepy more correlated with when the sun sets, even if it’s at 1800. I’ve found blackout shades useful for when I’m not sleeping a schedule correlated with the sun (eg work at 4 am) or external artificial light (streetlamps).
    - burningChrome 2y ago
bell-cot 2y ago
> Given the findings, [...] clinicians need to inform patients [...] after a heart attack, says Rowe. This should also be considered at the hospital, where tests and procedures would ideally be conducted during the daytime to minimize sleep interruptions. #1 - For most patients, it ain't merely "tests and procedures" which interfere with sleeping in a hospital at night. #2 - After a major injury, it ain't just nighttime when you need to sleep. Again, most hospitals seem determined to make that as difficult as they possibly can.
m3kw9 2y ago
Which could mean sleeping is good for the heart
- simmerup 2y ago
  It says as much in the article
skzv 2y ago
I was concussed and suffered from persistent headaches for 2 years. It was really tough. I was suicidal. My only reprieve from pain was falling asleep. I saw a neurologist and he told me that two most important things for your brain are: - consistent sleep schedule - regular exercise Once I got those two under control, the headaches finally went away.
wayoverthecloud 2y ago
What about sleeping more than 8 hours? Is there any research done on this? Will this affect negatively? I sleep 8-9 hrs most days. (No, I am not depressed or anything but I don't drink coffee or any stimulant to keep me awake so I get really tired at the end of the day.)
- erie 2y ago
  Yes, it seems bad, 'Sleeping too much puts you at greater risk of coronary heart disease, stroke and diabetes than sleeping too little. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8727775/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8727775/
  - terhechte 2y ago
    The paper doesn't really say that. Summary: > The study concludes that while individuals may initially sleep more when given extended opportunities—likely to recover from prior sleep deprivation—they do not sustain excessive sleep beyond their physiological needs. Consistently sleeping more than 10 hours may indicate underlying health issues and warrants further investigation. So more than 10 hours might indicate a problem, not 8-9 hours. Also, it's different if people work out a lot or have a physically demanding job: > For athletes or individuals with high physical demands, 10 hours of sleep might not indicate an underlying health issue but rather an increased physiological requirement. Research has shown that elite athletes often sleep longer than the general population. (this is not from the paper but from a quick search)
  - Etheryte 2y ago
    This doesn't even remotely pass the sniff test. Eight to nine hours of sleep is a healthy range confirmed by many studies the world over.
- wiether 2y ago
  > Experts recommend that adults sleep between 7 and 9 hours a night. https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/sleep/how-much-sleep https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/sleep/how-much-sleep Absolutely nothing wrong with sleeping between 8 and 9 hours, you're actually exactly in the healthy range. I have the same profile : no caffeine or other stimulants, good volume of physical activity; I don't need any reminder to go to bed, I get the obvious the call by being quite tired. Discussing sleep with people, I found two types that are dominants: - people who heard "between 7 and 9 hours" and remember "8 hours" (can't say they're wrong here!) - people who heard "between 7 and 9 hours" and remember "the goal is 7 hours", and actually sleep between 5 and 7 hours
bargainbot3k 2y ago
Whenever medical advice is being thrown around by anonymous handles, it helps to ask one simple question to clear the air: “Are you a doctor?”
- magical_spell 2y ago
  Perhaps that's not the question you should ask. You might want to ask "what is your advice based on?" instead. If you do so, you evaluate the conclusion by focusing on the quality of the argument, not features of the argumentator. You would agree, I suppose, that good medical advice could be given by non-doctors, and bad medical advice by doctors.
  - bargainbot3k 2y ago
    That would be a follow up question if the answer to the first question is “yes.”
- hooverd 2y ago
  If it's an MD you can substitute "take an ibuprofen and see if it goes away", otherwise proceed.
sharpshadow 2y ago
One can see this effect also by observing an little flesh injury like a cut while staying awake. Even after 48h of staying awake the little cut will hardly have any healing and likely even more inflammation. One round of sleep and the healing is immediately there.
- c0balt 2y ago
  That makes me wonder if the slower healing of cuts/wounds one can observe on older people and some adults is simply due to them needing and spending less time sleeping.
  - dmonitor 2y ago
    Alternatively, the body's system for mandating sleep breaks down resulting in slower healing of cuts/wounds
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
neofrommatrix 2y ago
I had a minor accident on my second day in the US and had bruises and cuts on my arms and shoulders. Did not go to the doc since my insurance was not yet covered (at a university). I felt really sleepy after and my roommates told me I slept for 24 hours straight. For me, that sleep was the deepest I have ever slept. Felt like I had lost time. I felt much better after and the body had begun its job of healing and at some places almost healed it. That was at 22. I miss that level of healing now after 20 years.
- brcmthrowaway 2y ago
  Follow Bryan Johnson
  - ASalazarMX 2y ago
    Don't follow Bryan Johnson (For an equally useless advice. Why should one follow him? What does he do?)
    - neofrommatrix 2y ago
      He transfuses his son’s plasma to stay young.
      - username135 2y ago
        With no other context, weird.
- ddalex 2y ago
  Have you considered injecting the blood of teenagers to recover the level of healing ? /s
  - neofrommatrix 2y ago
    Nope; I've come to terms with fact that we all are going to die someday. And, it is a good thing. :-)
wslh 2y ago
Has someone suffered sleep interruptions for months (or years) after having COVID [0]? I don't think it is studied too much. I have seen studies about Long Covid [1] which it doesn't seem to be the same. [0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1087079223000898 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10870... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_COVID https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_COVID
idunnoman1222 2y ago
So do we stop keeping people awake after concussion now?
- carabiner 2y ago
  When has that been a thing? When I got a concussion 5 years ago, the hospital in Seattle let me sleep all day in bed and told me to get plenty of rest.
- dartos 2y ago
  …no…
- prybeng 2y ago
  Yes that's already started being suggested. Had to update my first aid certificate recently and as of a few years ago the Red Cross now recommends allowing the person to sleep if possible. But they should be woken up and checked on every 4 hours or so. https://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/resources/learn-first-aid/concussion?srsltid=AfmBOoqdyQr8wvIL2xWP3n9J1A9KEJktkgDwffFsAI1ya3uf8ui6jSRL https://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/resources/learn-first-...

366 points by gmays 2y ago

[dead]

Timely and Important article. In this day and age where you have limitless distractions/entertainment we often ignore our "less sexy" biological needs to the detriment of our mind and body. We need to treat Sleep/Nap/Rest as a "job" and not as something extraneous. Instead of the current practice of arranging our biological needs around our work we should revert back to pre-industrial era practices where our work was arranged around our biological needs and nature's rhythms. A good way to start is to eat only when feeling hungry, nap/sleep when feeling tired/sleepy and in general listen to the body/mind needs irrespective of context.

cassianoleal 2y ago
This is spot on. These things are a delicate balance as well. When I sleep well, I can control my feeding patterns much better. When I eat well, I tend to sleep better. Exercise affects both of those, and is affected back. Work is constantly nudging this balance in the wrong direction, putting us into a vicious cycle of accelerated death and suffering. I may be making this sound worse than it feels though, probably because I'm writing this in between bouts of high fever. I honestly can't complain all that much from the life I lead but I do wish I could make it work much better around my physiological needs.
- rramadass 2y ago
  You might find some of my previous comments useful too; https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40978488 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40978488 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41538322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41538322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38445883 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38445883
  - cassianoleal 2y ago
    Thanks. I upvoted you because this is all great advice. I'm politely going to decline it though. Not because I don't think it's valuable but mostly because I already have alternatives to achieve those results that I know work better for myself. Unfortunately right now I don't have the time to follow through with most of it. Life happens, and right now it just happens to be happening more or less all at once. Urgency trumps priority. Furthermore, I'm a night owl. I have at different times in my life tried to change it. I followed all the advice I could find (including a lot of the things you mention). Ultimately, if I have to wake up early in the morning for work, I might end up with a cycle of 8h on the first night, with some luck another 8h, then it goes down to 6-5h, 2h and in some occasions an all nighter to top if off. My current sleep deprived cycle is one of relatively regular 5-6h per night. It's not very good but mostly because of the time I have to be awake. If I could wake up at 9:30-10:00 every day, I would be able to sleep those 5-6h per night and be in top shape. I know because I've done it for a few months in the past. I was at top physical and mental shape, consistently. Waking up at 7:00-8:00, even if I could sustain 7-8h per night, I'd still be sleepy, tired and unfocused for the most part. My brain suffers and so does my body. At this point I just decided to accept light sleep deprivation vs. the worse alternatives.
    - rramadass 2y ago
      I suggest you watch Dr. Satchin Panda's (he is the Circadian Rhythms researcher) videos (they are short TEDx ones) at the minimum. He gives a simple 6-step process which you might find very relevant.
      - cassianoleal 2y ago
        Thanks, I'll try to find the time.
        hackernewds 2y ago
        You seem to have a pretty reserved attitude about this. And I hope you are doing okay.
- agumonkey 2y ago
  Saw a video few days ago from someone saying that two people with the same diet but one having a bad sleep regime would make the low sleep person gain weight and lose muscle.
  - hackernewds 2y ago
    Sleep (specifically recovery) is also an important part of building muscle mass
- steveoscaro 2y ago
  “I can control my feeding patterns” I find this to be a disturbing way to describe eating
  - cassianoleal 2y ago
    You're free to not use it, I guess.
BizarroLand 2y ago
Note, though, that people with eating disorders can easily not feel hungry for days at a time for no reason or conversely never not feel hungry no matter how much they have eaten. Some people with depression or C/PTSD can sleep 14+ hours a day and not feel rested. Many people are so dysregulated that "listening to their bodies" and "embracing what is natural" are potentially self-destructive activities. So, keep your own body's limitations in mind. If you are affected by something that has pushed you off the track, at the very least, be aware of it before you go charging full steam ahead.
- rramadass 2y ago
  First, see some of my previous comments linked to here for background - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42138469 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42138469 What you are pointing out are extreme cases which is generally a small subset. So before jumping to this conclusion one should first setup one's daily life around circadian/natural rhythms and in general establish a healthy relationship between ourselves and the environment we are embedded in. This is fundamental to everything else. In fact many doctors themselves are now saying that drugs are overprescribed and you don't need them for most (not all) cases. Watch the following documentaries; 1) The Doctor Who Gave Up Drugs (Medical Documentary) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_ggnhpGvvA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_ggnhpGvvA 2) The Truth About the Medical Industry | The Doctor Who Gave Up Drugs | Part 2 | Documentary Central - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33RuKhr9pag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33RuKhr9pag
  - BizarroLand 2y ago
    I'm not going to take unsolicited homework from this site, especially one that is pushing an agenda in response to a statement that is clearly positive but cautious in response to your previous statement.
    - rramadass 2y ago
      You misunderstood. There is no agenda here but merely sharing something which for some reason doesn't seem to be more commonly known/understood. When it comes to "General Health" (both Mental/Physical) people forget that one can do a lot with what is already known (from empirical practice over generations and modern science) and with the exercise of a little bit of commonsense.
yazzku 2y ago
Who would've thought that sleep is good for you, right? Apparently we needed several million dollars in research to find out. > The findings, published today in Nature, could help to guide care for people after a heart attack, This is just hilarious. Remember to get enough sleep after a life-threatening heart attack, folks! But your comment resonates very much with me. I am tired of this capitalist culture that reduces the human essence to value output and shames people for not pretending to be working hard enough. Part of the reason I like working from home is that I can take that fucking 20-minute nap after lunch and be infinitely more productive throughout the rest of the day.
- op00to 2y ago
  > This is just hilarious. Remember to get enough sleep after a life-threatening heart attack, folks! Is it better to prioritize low-impact exercise or sleep after a heart attack? There's plenty of interesting angles to investigate.
  - rramadass 2y ago
    Not specific to "after a heart attack" but IME while both are important Sleep is much more important than Exercise. Anecdata: I spent a decade as caregiver/caretaker for my late Mother who refused to do any exercises except the absolute necessary ones which a doctor would ask her to do for a specific cause eg. back pain, breathing exercises etc. As soon as that symptom alleviated she would abandon the exercises. So i encouraged her to take long naps whenever she felt sleepy and it helped keep her mental faculties sharp and physically feel spry (within limits of course). You Asked: Is It Better to Sleep In Or Work Out? - https://time.com/3914773/exercise-sleep-fitness/ https://time.com/3914773/exercise-sleep-fitness/ Quote: But when pressed to choose one that’s more important, Mah grudgingly decides on sleep. “Sleep is foundational,” she says.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I do think it is sad that people are so out of touch with their bodies and the idea of self ownership that they need an authority figure to instruct such simple tasks. I think there is a huge component of trained helplessness resulting from consumerist culture and social subservience.
pengaru 2y ago
> A good way to start is to eat only when feeling hungry LOL, that's what everyone riding the "western diet" blood sugar roller coaster is already doing. If the diet doesn't reflect the environment our biological needs evolved in, acting without self discipline, eating based on how you feel, is a sure path to obesity, diabetes, and NAFLD. Horrible advice.
- rramadass 2y ago
  If you take that advice in isolation while your Diet is shit, of course it is not applicable. If you want a little more detailed overview see my previous comments here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42138469 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42138469
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I think the charitable interpretation is that they're drawing a distinction between physical hunger and emotional hunger. I "feel" like I could go for a bacon cheeseburger basically 24s hours today. I feel like I could eat another right after I finished the first. All of that is emotional. That is pretty different than symptoms true physical hunger. My stomach starts to grumble after 24 hours without food. After about 48 hours I feel lethargic and cognitively disordered. I think that a majority of Americans confuse the two because it has been years or even decades since they actually experienced the symptoms of insufficient calorie intake
  - batch12 2y ago
    For me the best change was when I got used to feeling peckish most of the time. I feel better when I am slightly hungry than after I eat, especially if it's a large meal. With that feeling as my baseline, I really can tell when I need to eat.
  - rramadass 2y ago
    Yes, i meant "Physical Hunger" with an implicit proper and healthy Diet. The point was that one need not eat according to a wall clock and lifestyle choices.
- 2y ago
interludead 2y ago
Treating sleep, rest, and even meals as part of the “job” of taking care of yourself is a powerful shift in mindset.
- rramadass 2y ago
  Exactly! With modern medicine people are living longer but their quality of life becomes so bad it is not worth it. Health IS Wealth!
  - interludead 2y ago
    It's not just about living longer but living well
- kibwen 2y ago
  Exercise too. Sleeping and eating are comparatively easy because they're pleasurable activities (well, eating properly isn't always pleasurable, but it's still not unpleasant). But exercise is physically stressful and often unpleasant. Doesn't matter, taking care of this body is my duty.
  - interludead 2y ago
    Totally agree! Exercise can feel like the hardest part sometimes.
agumonkey 2y ago
I believe the 2000s-* are causing lots of subtle yet deep issues. High availability, high throughput, non linear .. all the current trends are not aligned with a good / happy life.
- oersted 2y ago
  There has been a strong trend towards async communication though, which does help a lot. Before it was all phone calls, in-person interactions, live TV and Radio... Both for work and leisure, now you have more options than ever to take things at your own pace rather than letting external factors dictate how you arrange your time. I think we hit peak "speed of life" in the late 20th century to be honest, much of this is grass-is-greener thinking, we have made great progress in terms of day-to-day personal freedom. Life has never really matched this idilic ideal of the village farmer. Things were very rough for most of history, everyone was constantly stressed to keep up with their minimal necessities to live, it was not in any way relaxed. And the industrial revolution hit ~250 years ago, with much more strict schedules and much longer work days. This is not a recent phenomenon in the least.
  - rramadass 2y ago
    > Things were very rough for most of history, everyone was constantly stressed to keep up with their minimal necessities to live, it was not in any way relaxed. I have heard this argument many times before but it is mostly not true. Most village farmers do lead a more relaxed and relatively stress-free life. You just need to visit/observe/interact with them to see the difference. The main reason is the difference between Acute Stress vs. Chronic Stress. Chronic Stress has what has exploded exponentially in urban areas after the Industrial Revolution and the current IT Industry has made it even worse. There are just too many things to juggle all the time each of which has a deadline with consequences (because process and efficiency) however trivial it might be in the larger scheme of things. The farmer doesn't have that many things to worry over and so only has episodic bursts of Acute Stress over truly consequential things the management of which is easier. Another related point is that the farmer does live closer and more entwined with Nature than urban folks and this has been shown to be better for psychological health. We are evolved to interact with Nature and not isolate ourselves in a concrete jungle and grey cubicles.
tombert 2y ago
I've snored since I was a teenager, but didn't think much about it. I met my wife about 11 years ago, and she said that I would do a kind of disturbing "stop breathing" thing when I slept pretty shortly after we met, and I didn't think much about it then either. About a year ago, I decided to see a doctor and it turns out that I have sleep apnea; after a bit of finagling I managed to get a specialized oral appliance, I sleep much better. I don't snore anymore, my blood-oxygen levels stay in the green level, and my wife says my breathing during the night is pretty normal. Now I'm mad at myself for waiting so long to do anything about it. Pretty much everything in my life got about 10-20% easier after I started getting proper sleep. I think a bit clearer, I process conversations a bit better, I'm able to focus on tasks a little easier. It didn't magically "solve" all my problems, but it did make them a lot easier to work around.

AnthonBerg 2y ago

The actual paper is pretty wild, and makes sense from what I know: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08100-w https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-024-08100-w TNF-alpha promoting sleep is a surprise but it… makes sense. Somehow.

pazimzadeh 2y ago
It is kind of surprising. I wonder what happens in people who are on anti-TNFa. Maybe the antibody doesn't cross the blood brain barrier though.
- spondylosaurus 2y ago
  I had this question as well. Anecdotally, I've been on various anti-TNFa drugs for the past three or four years, and I feel like my sleep hasn't been impacted (and if anything has improved). Definitely no insomnia. I can nap like a champ!
  - AnthonBerg 2y ago
    It’s suuuuper interesting, right? I tried tossing “tnf-alpha inhibitor insomnia” into Google Scholar. Scanning the results I didn’t feel a “signal” in the papers that TNF-alpha inhibitors cause insomnia—which I wouldn’t expect either due to TNF inhibitor antibody size, right? But! There are tons of very interesting papers in the results behind those keywords. With multiple perspectives. Fruitful combo of keywords, you know? Google Scholar is unusually non-deterministic in what it returns for a given search. You probably won’t see the same papers as I did but it’s an interesting search: https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=tnf%2Dalpha%20inhibitor%20insomnia https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=tnf%2Dalpha%20inhibitor... This paper stood out a bit: Inhibition of tumor necrosis factor improves sleep continuity in patients with treatment resistant depression and high inflammation (2015) Authors, full list as I have it in the buffer: Jeremy F. Weinberger, Charles L. Raison, David B. Rye, Amy R. Montague, Bobbi J. Woolwine, Jennifer C. Felger, Ebrahim Haroon, Andrew H. Miller — Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, Department of Neurology, Emory University School of Medicine, Atlanta, GA https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0889159114006059 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S088915911... First thoughts: TNF—alpha signaling becomes unfocused? TNF-alpha release outside the CNS affects receptor sensitivity or other downstream mechanisms that do straddle the blood-brain barrier?

SoftTalker 2y ago

I've found that after a hard workout at the gym I sleep better and longer. That's certainly not a life-threatening injury but working out to exhaustion does create micro-injuries to muscle tissues which then have to heal (leading to growth).

mattgreenrocks 2y ago
Yep, I usually average more deep sleep (10-15m) during times of regular workouts. I typically fall asleep much faster as well, though I don't typically have issues with that.
enjoylife 2y ago
I vividly remember the difference intense hockey conditioning camps, sleep and recovery can cause. During these camp I pushed my heart, with many drills being 30+ seconds at max heart rate. Afterwards I was exhausted, chest felt terrible. But I was so tired, I didn’t have the usual movements at night, and had much longer deep sleep. The recovery the next day was so dramatic compared to prior workout sessions. Way less inflammation across my joints. As compared to sessions where I only pushed my heart rate to 30-60%

generalizations 2y ago

Also interesting: deep sleep therapy where you keep the patient asleep for days or weeks. Mixed results back then; I imagine they didn't have good ways to differentiate the patients who would be helped vs harmed by the therapy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_sleep_therapy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_sleep_therapy

rramadass 2y ago
There is also the "Non-Sleep Deep Rest" (NSDR) technique which seems to be getting some good traction; 1) Non-Sleep Deep Rest (NSDR): Exploring a World Beyond Sleep - https://positivepsychology.com/non-sleep-deep-rest-nsdr/ https://positivepsychology.com/non-sleep-deep-rest-nsdr/ 2) NSDR, Meditation and Breathwork - https://www.hubermanlab.com/topics/nsdr-meditation-and-breathwork https://www.hubermanlab.com/topics/nsdr-meditation-and-breat... 3) Neuroscience of Sleep - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sleep https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_sleep
- FullKirby 2y ago
  Thanks for sharing this.

pglevy 2y ago

One thing that stuck with me from the book Stroke of Insight (memoir of brain scientist who has and recovers from stroke) was how intently she prioritized sleep when everyone else kept trying to drag her out of bed. In a more mundane context, I've been fortunate to organize my schedule such that I don't use an alarm to get up in the morning. So I can let my body figure out how much sleep I need.

burningChrome 2y ago
>> So I can let my body figure out how much sleep I need. This is why my doctor advised (during a bout of insomnia a few years ago) not to use those "blackout" shades. They completely confuse your brain. My doctor said to sleep with the blinds open so your body can naturally reset its clock with the sunrise and sunset. Thankfully, this was in the Summer in a midwestern state, so I got back on track, but I still had to make some adjustments when daylight savings and Winter started. Your strategy was the other recommendation my doctor said to use. Anything that allows your body to naturally find its biorhythm is the best.
- aliasxneo 2y ago
  What happens when the sun sets at 18:00 in the winter? I like the idea, but I feel like most people won't go to bed that early, and use artificial lights to go about their evening, thus negating a lot of the effort. Or am I misunderstanding? Context: I struggle with insomnia and use blackout shades.
  - qazxcvbnmlp 2y ago
    Artificial lights also interfere with sleep. If you’ve ever been 100% off grid, or even a place where you have minimal phone usage and little artificial light you will feel sleepy more correlated with when the sun sets, even if it’s at 1800. I’ve found blackout shades useful for when I’m not sleeping a schedule correlated with the sun (eg work at 4 am) or external artificial light (streetlamps).
  - burningChrome 2y ago

bell-cot 2y ago

> Given the findings, [...] clinicians need to inform patients [...] after a heart attack, says Rowe. This should also be considered at the hospital, where tests and procedures would ideally be conducted during the daytime to minimize sleep interruptions. #1 - For most patients, it ain't merely "tests and procedures" which interfere with sleeping in a hospital at night. #2 - After a major injury, it ain't just nighttime when you need to sleep. Again, most hospitals seem determined to make that as difficult as they possibly can.

m3kw9 2y ago

Which could mean sleeping is good for the heart

simmerup 2y ago
It says as much in the article

skzv 2y ago

I was concussed and suffered from persistent headaches for 2 years. It was really tough. I was suicidal. My only reprieve from pain was falling asleep. I saw a neurologist and he told me that two most important things for your brain are: - consistent sleep schedule - regular exercise Once I got those two under control, the headaches finally went away.

wayoverthecloud 2y ago

What about sleeping more than 8 hours? Is there any research done on this? Will this affect negatively? I sleep 8-9 hrs most days. (No, I am not depressed or anything but I don't drink coffee or any stimulant to keep me awake so I get really tired at the end of the day.)

erie 2y ago
Yes, it seems bad, 'Sleeping too much puts you at greater risk of coronary heart disease, stroke and diabetes than sleeping too little. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8727775/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8727775/
- terhechte 2y ago
  The paper doesn't really say that. Summary: > The study concludes that while individuals may initially sleep more when given extended opportunities—likely to recover from prior sleep deprivation—they do not sustain excessive sleep beyond their physiological needs. Consistently sleeping more than 10 hours may indicate underlying health issues and warrants further investigation. So more than 10 hours might indicate a problem, not 8-9 hours. Also, it's different if people work out a lot or have a physically demanding job: > For athletes or individuals with high physical demands, 10 hours of sleep might not indicate an underlying health issue but rather an increased physiological requirement. Research has shown that elite athletes often sleep longer than the general population. (this is not from the paper but from a quick search)
- Etheryte 2y ago
  This doesn't even remotely pass the sniff test. Eight to nine hours of sleep is a healthy range confirmed by many studies the world over.
wiether 2y ago
> Experts recommend that adults sleep between 7 and 9 hours a night. https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/sleep/how-much-sleep https://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/sleep/how-much-sleep Absolutely nothing wrong with sleeping between 8 and 9 hours, you're actually exactly in the healthy range. I have the same profile : no caffeine or other stimulants, good volume of physical activity; I don't need any reminder to go to bed, I get the obvious the call by being quite tired. Discussing sleep with people, I found two types that are dominants: - people who heard "between 7 and 9 hours" and remember "8 hours" (can't say they're wrong here!) - people who heard "between 7 and 9 hours" and remember "the goal is 7 hours", and actually sleep between 5 and 7 hours

bargainbot3k 2y ago

Whenever medical advice is being thrown around by anonymous handles, it helps to ask one simple question to clear the air: “Are you a doctor?”

magical_spell 2y ago
Perhaps that's not the question you should ask. You might want to ask "what is your advice based on?" instead. If you do so, you evaluate the conclusion by focusing on the quality of the argument, not features of the argumentator. You would agree, I suppose, that good medical advice could be given by non-doctors, and bad medical advice by doctors.
- bargainbot3k 2y ago
  That would be a follow up question if the answer to the first question is “yes.”
hooverd 2y ago
If it's an MD you can substitute "take an ibuprofen and see if it goes away", otherwise proceed.

sharpshadow 2y ago

One can see this effect also by observing an little flesh injury like a cut while staying awake. Even after 48h of staying awake the little cut will hardly have any healing and likely even more inflammation. One round of sleep and the healing is immediately there.

c0balt 2y ago
That makes me wonder if the slower healing of cuts/wounds one can observe on older people and some adults is simply due to them needing and spending less time sleeping.
- dmonitor 2y ago
  Alternatively, the body's system for mandating sleep breaks down resulting in slower healing of cuts/wounds
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

neofrommatrix 2y ago

I had a minor accident on my second day in the US and had bruises and cuts on my arms and shoulders. Did not go to the doc since my insurance was not yet covered (at a university). I felt really sleepy after and my roommates told me I slept for 24 hours straight. For me, that sleep was the deepest I have ever slept. Felt like I had lost time. I felt much better after and the body had begun its job of healing and at some places almost healed it. That was at 22. I miss that level of healing now after 20 years.

brcmthrowaway 2y ago
Follow Bryan Johnson
- ASalazarMX 2y ago
  Don't follow Bryan Johnson (For an equally useless advice. Why should one follow him? What does he do?)
  - neofrommatrix 2y ago
    He transfuses his son’s plasma to stay young.
    - username135 2y ago
      With no other context, weird.
ddalex 2y ago
Have you considered injecting the blood of teenagers to recover the level of healing ? /s
- neofrommatrix 2y ago
  Nope; I've come to terms with fact that we all are going to die someday. And, it is a good thing. :-)

wslh 2y ago

Has someone suffered sleep interruptions for months (or years) after having COVID [0]? I don't think it is studied too much. I have seen studies about Long Covid [1] which it doesn't seem to be the same. [0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1087079223000898 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10870... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_COVID https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_COVID

idunnoman1222 2y ago

So do we stop keeping people awake after concussion now?

carabiner 2y ago
When has that been a thing? When I got a concussion 5 years ago, the hospital in Seattle let me sleep all day in bed and told me to get plenty of rest.
dartos 2y ago
…no…
prybeng 2y ago
Yes that's already started being suggested. Had to update my first aid certificate recently and as of a few years ago the Red Cross now recommends allowing the person to sleep if possible. But they should be woken up and checked on every 4 hours or so. https://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/resources/learn-first-aid/concussion?srsltid=AfmBOoqdyQr8wvIL2xWP3n9J1A9KEJktkgDwffFsAI1ya3uf8ui6jSRL https://www.redcross.org/take-a-class/resources/learn-first-...