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German coalition government collapses

85 points by gndk 2y ago

Phelinofist 2y ago
As a German I'm quite happy with this, because the coalition was doomed to fail from the start. On that note, I read the paper of Lidner and IMHO he has good points. Germany does not have an issue with income but with spending. We spend way too much for social stuff, especially pensions. The idea proposed by the SDP would fuck every following generation over pretty hard. And to loose the debt break to funnel that money to the Ukraine is brain dead. Why does no one tackle overflowing spending for social stuff, insane bureaucracy, abysmal education. I'm a bit concerned about new elections. That will probably make the CxU the major party, with probably SPD as a junior partner. However, IMHo the whole German political landscape is just FUBAR. CDU/CSU=old guys sprinkled with new guys that are both corrupt. Scheuer, Spahn, Dobrindt et al. Merz as chancellor. Yeah fuck. SPU=Give money from the middle class so poor, so they don't have to work that match FDP=Unfortunately I do not own a Porsche, but generally speaking I find the ideas proposed by Lidner in his paper quite sound Grüne=Ivory tower and out of touch with working people AFD=Crude mix between Nazis and just braindead people BSW=??? + all the other smaller parties that are just useless I pay the max amount possible for public healthcare (~1,1k€?) and pay about 1k+ in wage tax. That's just outright insane. In the meantime, my ex wife gets paid a flat + utilities + some other stuff. This is all fucked. The EU needs to get stronger, by having a Ungarn Exit and stopping the idiotic expansion to Moldova and the other states that will bring nothing to the table. Instead, they should be made partner, with some benefits, butno voting rights. Oh, and please no Schengen for all of them. With the shit also going on with the US election this is all just shit.
- Phelinofist 2y ago
  Oh, and the speech by Scholz was just taken from a drawer, so it has been written for quite some time. So overall this is just shady: Lidner wanted structured new elections but now Scholz forced this to be some shit show. Also the 4 points mentioned by Scholz are mostly shit: 1. Subventions for VW/other car manufactures: good to secure jobs, but eventually against strengthen of the German economy because we keep failed shot living for some time that is also doomed to fail 2. Energy price, how will he do it without screwing over private households? 3. Pensions: Yeah, the proposed pension packet would screw over newer generations tremendously, just to secure some votes from old people 4. More money for the Ukraine. Use that money to invest in to European Level defense
  - dlahoda 2y ago
    4. what part of money sent to ukraine is actually investment to eu defence? trying tactics and seeing arms in actios and then selling these to aravia and asia because of good reviews. 3. all young screwed with inflation money printing, and laws protecting rich to be rich, not poor become rich. so i doubt any coutry is different now. 2. check out nuclear in france and canada. they are fine. and... it was russia. ao de does not wants to fight it again? 1. yeah, exactly this, as i worked in that oart of de industry for a while.
    - Phelinofist 2y ago
      TBH, I'm not sure I can parse your comment correctly, but I'll try anyway: 1. I also work for some subsidiary of VW and honestly them going down is no surprise. It's mismanagement on all levels 2. I'm not sure nuclear is a good think. Sure, no CO2, but waste. Also, building them is just ridiculously expensive. 3. Unfortunately true! But the plans of the SPD were really insane IMHO 4. What I meant is that instead of sending anything to the Ukraine just invest in EU level defense.
- gndk 2y ago
  As another German, I fully agree about the political landscape in Germany being FUBAR. I'm an entrepreneur with a small business and the FDP is closest to my personal views in theory. In reality, they are just a bit lighter shade of green-socialism than the other parties. Lindner's paper is a joke. Germany needs much more radical changes than he proposed to ensure a prosperous future, but even his very tame suggestions now caused a government collapse. My payment for public healthcare is also at the maximum around 1k€/month and similar wage taxes. A few days ago I used an unemployment payment / "Bürgergeld" calculator and found out that if I stopped working and instead just got married and had 1-2 kids, I'd have more income after taxes than now. This is completely unsustainable, but nobody in politics talks about it. New elections won't make a difference, other than taking away some time and focus from the people in power to do more harm to the country. There simply is nobody sensible to vote for. Germany, and all of the EU in general, needs to hit absolute rock bottom first for new and sensible political parties to emerge. Personally, I don't want to be around for the ride down, so I'm preparing to leave the sinking ship. Unfortunately thats not easy with enormous exit taxes and much of the western world in a similarly bad state. The US honestly seems like the best option right now.
  - Phelinofist 2y ago
    > Lindner's paper is a joke. Germany needs much more radical changes than he proposed to ensure a prosperous future, but even his very tame suggestions now caused a government collapse. I wouldn't call it a joke, but rather a starting point. I agree that more radical changes are required. But then again, who will do them? Which party? Yeah, there is none
  - blubberblase42 2y ago
    > My payment for public healthcare is also at the maximum around 1k€/month and similar wage taxes [...] > and found out that if I stopped working and instead just got married and had 1-2 kids, I'd have more income after taxes than now That's not possible. Either you lied or didn't fill out the Bürgergeld calculator correctly. If you make enough money to get to the Jahresarbeitsentgeltgrenze so you pay the maximum of 843.53€ for public healthcare, then you at least should get 3.213€ a month "auf die Hand". If you get you apartment payed and 563€ if you are alone or 506€ if you are married. Yes you get "extra" money if you have kids, but FUNFACT: Kids cost money. All political landscape is FUBAR. But in part that because there are unlimited different opinions but only a handful of party's. I don't know how Cum-Ex Scholz could get Chancellor and I am ashamed of it, but with E-Fuel-Porsche Linder... You know his company before politics, which he ran into ground was funded in part by the KFW? He wasted more of our money than a village of people getting Bürgergeld. Yeah sure, the german car industry will be great again with this E-Fuel bullshit and then with lesser taxes the profits will trickle down to everyone. Have fun with more poverty and richer Billionaires.
- SvenL 2y ago
  I don't think the issue is spending on social stuff. There are more issues like tax evasion - even supported by the ministry of Lindner [1]. But I think the biggest issue is spending money by employing more and more governance worker. I heard that the Kanzleramt employs more people than most of the big companies in Germany. Also, you wrote CDU is corrupt, but FDP feels as corrupt as CDU. At least it looks like working for FDP lead ministry pays off [2][3]. It just feels morally wrong to try to cut social spending when they can't cut spending on their side. Also, pensions for governance worker are pretty high too. (sorry for German sources) [1] https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/gerda-hofmann-finanzministerium-vortraege-100.html https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/gerda-hofmann-finanzm... [2] https://www.merkur.de/politik/schuldenbremse-bundeshaushalt-sparen-befoerderungen-befoerderungswelle-fdp-zr-92717403.html https://www.merkur.de/politik/schuldenbremse-bundeshaushalt-... [3] https://www.stern.de/politik/deutschland/finanzministerium--beamte-verdienten-mehr-als-700-000-euro-nebenher-34319288.html https://www.stern.de/politik/deutschland/finanzministerium--...
  - Phelinofist 2y ago
    My comment was written with a bit of rage, I might have missed some things. So I agree with wealth tax and tackling tax evasion. Yes, I also should've added corruption to FDP, good catch! Mövenpick. Also look at the absolute dog shit minister that is Wissing. I also agree with reducing spending on their side.
    - SvenL 2y ago
      I edited my comment also a little bit because I wrote in rage. It really feels frustrating the political landscape (voting the "least evil" party).
      - Phelinofist 2y ago
        I think you can also do this before someone replys, so no luck there. Honestly I have no clue who to vote for. I guess we will get a GroKo again, which is utterly retarded, SPD has to go to. Their pension packet is just insane.
- tharkun__ 2y ago
  We spend way too much for social stuff, especially pensions Germany has a problem with pensions in particular but it isn't fixable without abandoning what Germany stands for. At least for another few generations. Germany told everyone that they needn't worry about their pensions. The government has got your back. We take care of it. Norbert Bluem - "Your pension is safe!" Shortly after they introduced legislation that would make pensioners pay tax on their pension income. Something that was "not a thing" before. They also basically told those people that would now have to pay tax on their pension income that they "should've had private pension plans already anyway". Oh and they introduced multiple ways to help insurance companies steal people's money. "Riester Renter" and such. Not a good deal at all. Oh and there's no way to save money in a tax advantaged way without using insurance companies. No self-serve investment 401k or RRSP. It's all employer and insurance tied. Way to fuck over your population.
- NoZZz 2y ago
  In the end the Nazi's had the right ideal, your laziness is causing capital outflow, and this hits you in the face, later. It's time to critically examine the capital outflow and inflow of Europe, and act accordingly.
the5avage 2y ago
As a german imo the real problem is that we replaced reasoning with ideology. There are sometimes complex connections between cause and effect. It is not enough to just have the right intention.
- rasmus1610 2y ago
  This. Just had a longer discussion with my wife just now why this is. So many discussions in Germany revolve around ideology and not what’s best in the situation right now.
  - huijzer 2y ago
    Same in the US. Especially in the party that now lost. Maybe believing in some equality fairyland where everything is fair and equal doesn’t work. Doesn’t work for the US and doesn’t work for Germany. You need to let crazy people do crazy things (within the law of course). Many inventors were “crazy” at the time including Einstein, Turing and DaVinci to name a few. Maybe in 50 years we will talk about the government that forced Turing to take medication against his homosexuality in the same way as the woke politicians who supported cancel culture. A culture that has caused many academics to lose their job and caused even more academics to fear speaking up. Germany is in a really dire situation now by the way. Car production is about 17% of GDP and sales for all their brands are declining steadily. Especially Chinese sales are going down fast. Relatedly, Xiami is now one of the fastest cars on the Nordschleife. But the German government doesn’t seem to have any solutions. Yes close power plants. Oh wait they have now the highest electricity prices in the whole of Europe. And this is while their education system is fine. Young German engineers are great I think. I’ve seen many great German open source developers. Especially of course the creators of Typst.
    - huijzer 2y ago
      To the people downvoting me again. Please come with arguments instead of just clicking the “I disagree” button. I’ll happily be proven wrong but I need someone to do it. Just clicking “I disagree” doesn’t add anything to the discussion. Thank you.
killjoywashere 2y ago
So, destabilized democracies seems to be the theme of the early 21st century: the UK (Brexit), the US (twice) and now rumbles from Germany. Great
- pc86 2y ago
  What is unstable about the US?
  - nilsherzig 2y ago
    Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Trump's followers raid the capitol last time (with his approval)? Seems unstable from the outside
    - stickfigure 2y ago
      One of them was shot and more than 600 were sent to prison. Seems stable enough to me.
      - gmueckl 2y ago
        Stable democracies hand over to new governments without bloodshed. Any amount of violence in the process is too much to count as stable.
        pc86 2y ago
        Stable democracies can preserve themselves even against undue influence. Even if you think Jan 6 was a carefully calculated and orchestrated attempt at a "kill the elected leaders and install sycophants in their place" style coup d'état - or perhaps especially if you think that - the result proved the US's stability.
      - itslennysfault 2y ago
        Pretty safe bet those in prison will be pardoned, and I wouldn't be shocked if the dead traitor got a posthumous medal.
dlahoda 2y ago
i once was working for bosch contractor. they have team of 2-3 people doing in half year less work than i am in one month, and yet payed 2x less. de lead of that 2-3 team was putting some integration tests ignored and unignored several times during that time as stabilisation effort, sure they were not stabilized. team we dependent on for car data lagged behind for month all time, and people were pieced off when i was going to sent prs to their code to speed up things.
cryptica 2y ago
It's frustrating to watch governments constantly argue over what they should do to help the economy when what they should be arguing about is what they should undo to stop hindering the economy.
- tcfhgj 2y ago
  Less human rights, less worker rights, less long term thinking, more slavery
- nicbou 2y ago
  In Germany, it seems somewhat obvious: a more efficient bureaucracy. Everything is bogged down in red tape and bureaucratic processes, most of which are completely archaic and actively hostile to digitalisation. I am a strong proponent of regulation, but the kind that involves computers, not faxes.
probably_wrong 2y ago
If the future German Chancellor is here, here's my proposal for your new campaign: "We choose to build one million affordable apartments in four years, not because it's easy but because it's hard". It may not solve all of Germany's problems but at least you'll energize the construction sector, alleviate the housing crisis, learn how to finish a construction project on time and you'll have to remove some bureaucracy to reach the deadline. Build them with EV chargers outside and you'll help VW too.
- Phelinofist 2y ago
  Haha, yeah, forget it. Too much bureaucracy. But I agree, doing something like this would address quite a few issues people have. Which party would tackle that though? I can't think of any.
- trhway 2y ago
  Interesting that 2 similar problems - water rise and population increase - are treated that differently, i.e. it is considered normal that the government would build levies/etc. while the government building housing is an abomination.
  - illiac786 2y ago
    Well, it has been a race to the bottom to be fair, any infra is just becoming derelict, railways, levies are a very good example of infra in very bad state btw.
- go13 2y ago
  [dead]
- baybal2 2y ago
  [dead]
- 0x000xca0xfe 2y ago
  That was essentially the slogan of the current coalition and they failed completely.
yallpendantools 2y ago
I have a tangential question, especially to the native Germans in this thread. I've been living in Germany for a while now and have been trying to understand German politics in that time, including this whole concept of coalition governments and the crisis the Ampel is facing. Due to the latter, I came across this: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-could-face-snap-election/a-70497575 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-could-face-snap-election/a-704... In this article are statements such as (emphasis mine): > Brandt called for a vote of confidence in the Bundestag with the aim of losing it, so that his chancellorship could be reconfirmed by voters in fresh elections. > [Kohl] called for a vote of confidence, which he, too, deliberately lost on December 17, 1982. > Schröder called for a vote of confidence, which he deliberately lost on July 1, 2005. I just can't wrap my head around these in so many levels. The easier of these questions would be, how can a chancellor deliberately lose a vote of confidence? What makes the action deliberate exactly? Brandt is a more complicated case to the point where I am, honestly, having a hard time putting my bewilderment into words. I'll try nonetheless: How can a chancellor expect voters in fresh elections to bolster their chancellorship, just right after losing a vote of confidence? I can only interpret this as some kind of political flex, basically telling the Bundestag that "I may not have your confidence but I still have mandate from the people". (If it is, then, well, weird flex but ok, as we used to say a few years ago. It is a reason after all, even if I find it a bit absurd.) Perhaps what adds to my confusion is, in Kohl's section we read: "Because Kohl's coalition of the CDU/CSU and FDP came to power through a vote of no confidence and not a general election, Kohl wished for additional legitimacy through a general election" which to me implies that Brandt's strategy would not have consolidated his position as strongly; indeed, the article notes his maneuver was fiercely criticized at the time. I know I'm an idiot when it comes to German politics so I'd be glad if someone can make sense of my bewilderment. I know there is a lot of subtlety and context I am missing here and I'm sure I'm confusing one thing for another. But I strongly feel like this would go a long way to helping me understand the current machinations of the Ampel.
- 1718627440 2y ago
  > I just can't wrap my head around these in so many levels. The easier of these questions would be, how can a chancellor deliberately lose a vote of confidence? What makes the action deliberate exactly? Just openly telling your coalition to not vote for you. > How can a chancellor expect voters in fresh elections to bolster their chancellorship, just right after losing a vote of confidence? I don't think saying "I came into power, but I'am not sure, if you really want me so please vote for me." will have negative effects on your election results. > I can only interpret this as some kind of political flex, basically telling the Bundestag that "I may not have your confidence but I still have mandate from the people". The chancellor gives up on forming the government, but it's the parliament's to vote for a new election.
lakomen 2y ago
Lindner was out of line, did a solo act and Scholz took it personally, his ego was insulted, so he fired him. Lindner did it on purpose. He either knows what he's doing (ace under the sleeve) or is a total idiot.
- gndk 2y ago
  Lindner was forced to do it. FDP has been under the 5% barrier in polls for months now, down from 11,4%. If they stayed in the coalition until the next regular election, they would most likely not even get into parliament again. At least with this move, they have a better chance.
- drvd 2y ago
  > total idiot This. Basically all public economists agree on Lindner's ideas and behaviour to be nonsensical. So he either is an idiot or a puppet.
ulfw 2y ago
Funny how this discussion is allowed but I have not been able to read anything about the US election on here
- gndk 2y ago
  A discussion with now 8000 comments has been on the front page for most of the day: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42057647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42057647
  - fsckboy 2y ago
    it's not much of a discussion, it's the side that lost (which corresponds to the bulk of the HN community) not acknowledging anything unsound about their beliefs or approach or misalignment with the electorate, and instead continuing with the same talking points that lost the election. Which is fine, they can do that, that can be a heartfelt belief, but it's not a discussion that's going anyplace or illuminating anybody.
    - zuhsetaqi 2y ago
      And that’s exactly the reason I like HN and actually read comments here unlinke on other platforms like Reddit where the quality of comments in average are bad
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - ywvcbk 2y ago
      > not acknowledging anything unsound about Except the top comments are the complete opposite of that…
solarkraft 2y ago
What surprised me is not that it happened, but that it happened now. Since it didn’t happen years earlier, I expected the coalition to last until the next election to at least give some semblance of stability. The FDP has always had its finger on the self destruction button in this coalition and perhaps they wanted to get some especially, ehm, daring policy through with its politically quite different partners.
PeterStuer 2y ago
As I understand Trump is more isolationist and less neo-con interventionist than Biden/Harris is. So why does the article state 'increased geo-political challanges' after a Trump win?
- Tarsul 2y ago
  Because Europe cannot put trust in US help for Ukraine. Thus, Germany has to do more. (and they can only do more if they spend money and the [now ex-]finance minister does not want to) Also, if the US raises its tariffs wrt to Europe, then the German economy is in even more trouble.
- immibis 2y ago
  Because Russia will conquer eastern Europe and China Taiwan.
3np 2y ago
> Political analyst Thu Nguyen, Deputy Director at the Berlin-based think tank Jacques Delors Centre, said it was not meant to be in a comment on social media. ?

85 points by gndk 2y ago

As a German I'm quite happy with this, because the coalition was doomed to fail from the start. On that note, I read the paper of Lidner and IMHO he has good points. Germany does not have an issue with income but with spending. We spend way too much for social stuff, especially pensions. The idea proposed by the SDP would fuck every following generation over pretty hard. And to loose the debt break to funnel that money to the Ukraine is brain dead. Why does no one tackle overflowing spending for social stuff, insane bureaucracy, abysmal education. I'm a bit concerned about new elections. That will probably make the CxU the major party, with probably SPD as a junior partner. However, IMHo the whole German political landscape is just FUBAR. CDU/CSU=old guys sprinkled with new guys that are both corrupt. Scheuer, Spahn, Dobrindt et al. Merz as chancellor. Yeah fuck. SPU=Give money from the middle class so poor, so they don't have to work that match FDP=Unfortunately I do not own a Porsche, but generally speaking I find the ideas proposed by Lidner in his paper quite sound Grüne=Ivory tower and out of touch with working people AFD=Crude mix between Nazis and just braindead people BSW=??? + all the other smaller parties that are just useless I pay the max amount possible for public healthcare (~1,1k€?) and pay about 1k+ in wage tax. That's just outright insane. In the meantime, my ex wife gets paid a flat + utilities + some other stuff. This is all fucked. The EU needs to get stronger, by having a Ungarn Exit and stopping the idiotic expansion to Moldova and the other states that will bring nothing to the table. Instead, they should be made partner, with some benefits, butno voting rights. Oh, and please no Schengen for all of them. With the shit also going on with the US election this is all just shit.

Phelinofist 2y ago
Oh, and the speech by Scholz was just taken from a drawer, so it has been written for quite some time. So overall this is just shady: Lidner wanted structured new elections but now Scholz forced this to be some shit show. Also the 4 points mentioned by Scholz are mostly shit: 1. Subventions for VW/other car manufactures: good to secure jobs, but eventually against strengthen of the German economy because we keep failed shot living for some time that is also doomed to fail 2. Energy price, how will he do it without screwing over private households? 3. Pensions: Yeah, the proposed pension packet would screw over newer generations tremendously, just to secure some votes from old people 4. More money for the Ukraine. Use that money to invest in to European Level defense
- dlahoda 2y ago
  4. what part of money sent to ukraine is actually investment to eu defence? trying tactics and seeing arms in actios and then selling these to aravia and asia because of good reviews. 3. all young screwed with inflation money printing, and laws protecting rich to be rich, not poor become rich. so i doubt any coutry is different now. 2. check out nuclear in france and canada. they are fine. and... it was russia. ao de does not wants to fight it again? 1. yeah, exactly this, as i worked in that oart of de industry for a while.
  - Phelinofist 2y ago
    TBH, I'm not sure I can parse your comment correctly, but I'll try anyway: 1. I also work for some subsidiary of VW and honestly them going down is no surprise. It's mismanagement on all levels 2. I'm not sure nuclear is a good think. Sure, no CO2, but waste. Also, building them is just ridiculously expensive. 3. Unfortunately true! But the plans of the SPD were really insane IMHO 4. What I meant is that instead of sending anything to the Ukraine just invest in EU level defense.
gndk 2y ago
As another German, I fully agree about the political landscape in Germany being FUBAR. I'm an entrepreneur with a small business and the FDP is closest to my personal views in theory. In reality, they are just a bit lighter shade of green-socialism than the other parties. Lindner's paper is a joke. Germany needs much more radical changes than he proposed to ensure a prosperous future, but even his very tame suggestions now caused a government collapse. My payment for public healthcare is also at the maximum around 1k€/month and similar wage taxes. A few days ago I used an unemployment payment / "Bürgergeld" calculator and found out that if I stopped working and instead just got married and had 1-2 kids, I'd have more income after taxes than now. This is completely unsustainable, but nobody in politics talks about it. New elections won't make a difference, other than taking away some time and focus from the people in power to do more harm to the country. There simply is nobody sensible to vote for. Germany, and all of the EU in general, needs to hit absolute rock bottom first for new and sensible political parties to emerge. Personally, I don't want to be around for the ride down, so I'm preparing to leave the sinking ship. Unfortunately thats not easy with enormous exit taxes and much of the western world in a similarly bad state. The US honestly seems like the best option right now.
- Phelinofist 2y ago
  > Lindner's paper is a joke. Germany needs much more radical changes than he proposed to ensure a prosperous future, but even his very tame suggestions now caused a government collapse. I wouldn't call it a joke, but rather a starting point. I agree that more radical changes are required. But then again, who will do them? Which party? Yeah, there is none
- blubberblase42 2y ago
  > My payment for public healthcare is also at the maximum around 1k€/month and similar wage taxes [...] > and found out that if I stopped working and instead just got married and had 1-2 kids, I'd have more income after taxes than now That's not possible. Either you lied or didn't fill out the Bürgergeld calculator correctly. If you make enough money to get to the Jahresarbeitsentgeltgrenze so you pay the maximum of 843.53€ for public healthcare, then you at least should get 3.213€ a month "auf die Hand". If you get you apartment payed and 563€ if you are alone or 506€ if you are married. Yes you get "extra" money if you have kids, but FUNFACT: Kids cost money. All political landscape is FUBAR. But in part that because there are unlimited different opinions but only a handful of party's. I don't know how Cum-Ex Scholz could get Chancellor and I am ashamed of it, but with E-Fuel-Porsche Linder... You know his company before politics, which he ran into ground was funded in part by the KFW? He wasted more of our money than a village of people getting Bürgergeld. Yeah sure, the german car industry will be great again with this E-Fuel bullshit and then with lesser taxes the profits will trickle down to everyone. Have fun with more poverty and richer Billionaires.
SvenL 2y ago
I don't think the issue is spending on social stuff. There are more issues like tax evasion - even supported by the ministry of Lindner [1]. But I think the biggest issue is spending money by employing more and more governance worker. I heard that the Kanzleramt employs more people than most of the big companies in Germany. Also, you wrote CDU is corrupt, but FDP feels as corrupt as CDU. At least it looks like working for FDP lead ministry pays off [2][3]. It just feels morally wrong to try to cut social spending when they can't cut spending on their side. Also, pensions for governance worker are pretty high too. (sorry for German sources) [1] https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/gerda-hofmann-finanzministerium-vortraege-100.html https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/politik/gerda-hofmann-finanzm... [2] https://www.merkur.de/politik/schuldenbremse-bundeshaushalt-sparen-befoerderungen-befoerderungswelle-fdp-zr-92717403.html https://www.merkur.de/politik/schuldenbremse-bundeshaushalt-... [3] https://www.stern.de/politik/deutschland/finanzministerium--beamte-verdienten-mehr-als-700-000-euro-nebenher-34319288.html https://www.stern.de/politik/deutschland/finanzministerium--...
- Phelinofist 2y ago
  My comment was written with a bit of rage, I might have missed some things. So I agree with wealth tax and tackling tax evasion. Yes, I also should've added corruption to FDP, good catch! Mövenpick. Also look at the absolute dog shit minister that is Wissing. I also agree with reducing spending on their side.
  - SvenL 2y ago
    I edited my comment also a little bit because I wrote in rage. It really feels frustrating the political landscape (voting the "least evil" party).
    - Phelinofist 2y ago
      I think you can also do this before someone replys, so no luck there. Honestly I have no clue who to vote for. I guess we will get a GroKo again, which is utterly retarded, SPD has to go to. Their pension packet is just insane.
tharkun__ 2y ago
We spend way too much for social stuff, especially pensions Germany has a problem with pensions in particular but it isn't fixable without abandoning what Germany stands for. At least for another few generations. Germany told everyone that they needn't worry about their pensions. The government has got your back. We take care of it. Norbert Bluem - "Your pension is safe!" Shortly after they introduced legislation that would make pensioners pay tax on their pension income. Something that was "not a thing" before. They also basically told those people that would now have to pay tax on their pension income that they "should've had private pension plans already anyway". Oh and they introduced multiple ways to help insurance companies steal people's money. "Riester Renter" and such. Not a good deal at all. Oh and there's no way to save money in a tax advantaged way without using insurance companies. No self-serve investment 401k or RRSP. It's all employer and insurance tied. Way to fuck over your population.
NoZZz 2y ago
In the end the Nazi's had the right ideal, your laziness is causing capital outflow, and this hits you in the face, later. It's time to critically examine the capital outflow and inflow of Europe, and act accordingly.

the5avage 2y ago

As a german imo the real problem is that we replaced reasoning with ideology. There are sometimes complex connections between cause and effect. It is not enough to just have the right intention.

rasmus1610 2y ago
This. Just had a longer discussion with my wife just now why this is. So many discussions in Germany revolve around ideology and not what’s best in the situation right now.
- huijzer 2y ago
  Same in the US. Especially in the party that now lost. Maybe believing in some equality fairyland where everything is fair and equal doesn’t work. Doesn’t work for the US and doesn’t work for Germany. You need to let crazy people do crazy things (within the law of course). Many inventors were “crazy” at the time including Einstein, Turing and DaVinci to name a few. Maybe in 50 years we will talk about the government that forced Turing to take medication against his homosexuality in the same way as the woke politicians who supported cancel culture. A culture that has caused many academics to lose their job and caused even more academics to fear speaking up. Germany is in a really dire situation now by the way. Car production is about 17% of GDP and sales for all their brands are declining steadily. Especially Chinese sales are going down fast. Relatedly, Xiami is now one of the fastest cars on the Nordschleife. But the German government doesn’t seem to have any solutions. Yes close power plants. Oh wait they have now the highest electricity prices in the whole of Europe. And this is while their education system is fine. Young German engineers are great I think. I’ve seen many great German open source developers. Especially of course the creators of Typst.
  - huijzer 2y ago
    To the people downvoting me again. Please come with arguments instead of just clicking the “I disagree” button. I’ll happily be proven wrong but I need someone to do it. Just clicking “I disagree” doesn’t add anything to the discussion. Thank you.

killjoywashere 2y ago

So, destabilized democracies seems to be the theme of the early 21st century: the UK (Brexit), the US (twice) and now rumbles from Germany. Great

pc86 2y ago
What is unstable about the US?
- nilsherzig 2y ago
  Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Trump's followers raid the capitol last time (with his approval)? Seems unstable from the outside
  - stickfigure 2y ago
    One of them was shot and more than 600 were sent to prison. Seems stable enough to me.
    - gmueckl 2y ago
      Stable democracies hand over to new governments without bloodshed. Any amount of violence in the process is too much to count as stable.
      - pc86 2y ago
        Stable democracies can preserve themselves even against undue influence. Even if you think Jan 6 was a carefully calculated and orchestrated attempt at a "kill the elected leaders and install sycophants in their place" style coup d'état - or perhaps especially if you think that - the result proved the US's stability.
    - itslennysfault 2y ago
      Pretty safe bet those in prison will be pardoned, and I wouldn't be shocked if the dead traitor got a posthumous medal.

dlahoda 2y ago

i once was working for bosch contractor. they have team of 2-3 people doing in half year less work than i am in one month, and yet payed 2x less. de lead of that 2-3 team was putting some integration tests ignored and unignored several times during that time as stabilisation effort, sure they were not stabilized. team we dependent on for car data lagged behind for month all time, and people were pieced off when i was going to sent prs to their code to speed up things.

cryptica 2y ago

It's frustrating to watch governments constantly argue over what they should do to help the economy when what they should be arguing about is what they should undo to stop hindering the economy.

tcfhgj 2y ago
Less human rights, less worker rights, less long term thinking, more slavery
nicbou 2y ago
In Germany, it seems somewhat obvious: a more efficient bureaucracy. Everything is bogged down in red tape and bureaucratic processes, most of which are completely archaic and actively hostile to digitalisation. I am a strong proponent of regulation, but the kind that involves computers, not faxes.

probably_wrong 2y ago

If the future German Chancellor is here, here's my proposal for your new campaign: "We choose to build one million affordable apartments in four years, not because it's easy but because it's hard". It may not solve all of Germany's problems but at least you'll energize the construction sector, alleviate the housing crisis, learn how to finish a construction project on time and you'll have to remove some bureaucracy to reach the deadline. Build them with EV chargers outside and you'll help VW too.

Phelinofist 2y ago
Haha, yeah, forget it. Too much bureaucracy. But I agree, doing something like this would address quite a few issues people have. Which party would tackle that though? I can't think of any.
trhway 2y ago
Interesting that 2 similar problems - water rise and population increase - are treated that differently, i.e. it is considered normal that the government would build levies/etc. while the government building housing is an abomination.
- illiac786 2y ago
  Well, it has been a race to the bottom to be fair, any infra is just becoming derelict, railways, levies are a very good example of infra in very bad state btw.
go13 2y ago
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baybal2 2y ago
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0x000xca0xfe 2y ago
That was essentially the slogan of the current coalition and they failed completely.

yallpendantools 2y ago

I have a tangential question, especially to the native Germans in this thread. I've been living in Germany for a while now and have been trying to understand German politics in that time, including this whole concept of coalition governments and the crisis the Ampel is facing. Due to the latter, I came across this: https://www.dw.com/en/germany-could-face-snap-election/a-70497575 https://www.dw.com/en/germany-could-face-snap-election/a-704... In this article are statements such as (emphasis mine): > Brandt called for a vote of confidence in the Bundestag with the aim of losing it, so that his chancellorship could be reconfirmed by voters in fresh elections. > [Kohl] called for a vote of confidence, which he, too, deliberately lost on December 17, 1982. > Schröder called for a vote of confidence, which he deliberately lost on July 1, 2005. I just can't wrap my head around these in so many levels. The easier of these questions would be, how can a chancellor deliberately lose a vote of confidence? What makes the action deliberate exactly? Brandt is a more complicated case to the point where I am, honestly, having a hard time putting my bewilderment into words. I'll try nonetheless: How can a chancellor expect voters in fresh elections to bolster their chancellorship, just right after losing a vote of confidence? I can only interpret this as some kind of political flex, basically telling the Bundestag that "I may not have your confidence but I still have mandate from the people". (If it is, then, well, weird flex but ok, as we used to say a few years ago. It is a reason after all, even if I find it a bit absurd.) Perhaps what adds to my confusion is, in Kohl's section we read: "Because Kohl's coalition of the CDU/CSU and FDP came to power through a vote of no confidence and not a general election, Kohl wished for additional legitimacy through a general election" which to me implies that Brandt's strategy would not have consolidated his position as strongly; indeed, the article notes his maneuver was fiercely criticized at the time. I know I'm an idiot when it comes to German politics so I'd be glad if someone can make sense of my bewilderment. I know there is a lot of subtlety and context I am missing here and I'm sure I'm confusing one thing for another. But I strongly feel like this would go a long way to helping me understand the current machinations of the Ampel.

1718627440 2y ago
> I just can't wrap my head around these in so many levels. The easier of these questions would be, how can a chancellor deliberately lose a vote of confidence? What makes the action deliberate exactly? Just openly telling your coalition to not vote for you. > How can a chancellor expect voters in fresh elections to bolster their chancellorship, just right after losing a vote of confidence? I don't think saying "I came into power, but I'am not sure, if you really want me so please vote for me." will have negative effects on your election results. > I can only interpret this as some kind of political flex, basically telling the Bundestag that "I may not have your confidence but I still have mandate from the people". The chancellor gives up on forming the government, but it's the parliament's to vote for a new election.

lakomen 2y ago

Lindner was out of line, did a solo act and Scholz took it personally, his ego was insulted, so he fired him. Lindner did it on purpose. He either knows what he's doing (ace under the sleeve) or is a total idiot.

gndk 2y ago
Lindner was forced to do it. FDP has been under the 5% barrier in polls for months now, down from 11,4%. If they stayed in the coalition until the next regular election, they would most likely not even get into parliament again. At least with this move, they have a better chance.
drvd 2y ago
> total idiot This. Basically all public economists agree on Lindner's ideas and behaviour to be nonsensical. So he either is an idiot or a puppet.

ulfw 2y ago

Funny how this discussion is allowed but I have not been able to read anything about the US election on here

gndk 2y ago
A discussion with now 8000 comments has been on the front page for most of the day: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42057647 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42057647
- fsckboy 2y ago
  it's not much of a discussion, it's the side that lost (which corresponds to the bulk of the HN community) not acknowledging anything unsound about their beliefs or approach or misalignment with the electorate, and instead continuing with the same talking points that lost the election. Which is fine, they can do that, that can be a heartfelt belief, but it's not a discussion that's going anyplace or illuminating anybody.
  - zuhsetaqi 2y ago
    And that’s exactly the reason I like HN and actually read comments here unlinke on other platforms like Reddit where the quality of comments in average are bad
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - ywvcbk 2y ago
    > not acknowledging anything unsound about Except the top comments are the complete opposite of that…

solarkraft 2y ago

What surprised me is not that it happened, but that it happened now. Since it didn’t happen years earlier, I expected the coalition to last until the next election to at least give some semblance of stability. The FDP has always had its finger on the self destruction button in this coalition and perhaps they wanted to get some especially, ehm, daring policy through with its politically quite different partners.

PeterStuer 2y ago

As I understand Trump is more isolationist and less neo-con interventionist than Biden/Harris is. So why does the article state 'increased geo-political challanges' after a Trump win?

Tarsul 2y ago
Because Europe cannot put trust in US help for Ukraine. Thus, Germany has to do more. (and they can only do more if they spend money and the [now ex-]finance minister does not want to) Also, if the US raises its tariffs wrt to Europe, then the German economy is in even more trouble.
immibis 2y ago
Because Russia will conquer eastern Europe and China Taiwan.

3np 2y ago

> Political analyst Thu Nguyen, Deputy Director at the Berlin-based think tank Jacques Delors Centre, said it was not meant to be in a comment on social media. ?