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Huh, I'd been assuming the Switch 2 would be AMD Z2 based. I guess they've managed to convince nVidia to make them another SoC. A little surprised, would have t

by Macha 2y ago

Huh, I'd been assuming the Switch 2 would be AMD Z2 based. I guess they've managed to convince nVidia to make them another SoC. A little surprised, would have thought nVidia would want to use any spare fab time for AI chips, though maybe they have some older process capacity?

mywittyname 2y ago
I imagine something like the Switch is a great revenue stream for nvidia. It's relatively easy work and they'll be minting Switch 2s, thus paying licensing fees, well into the 2030s. Even if they don't need that money, it's still good to deny the competition of such a lucrative contract.
- qwytw 2y ago
  There are some hints that Nvidia wants to seriously enter the ARM CPU market (again)? Switch guarantees high demand/volume regardless of anything else. Not clear how lucrative the contract is on its own, though. Presumably it will reduce their current gross margins (which won't necessarily look great in their quarterly report. Nvidia's total revenue is only ~20% higher than Intel's was back in 2021 despite the insane valuations (in large part due to their obscene margins).
  - rsynnott 2y ago
    > There are some hints that Nvidia wants to seriously enter the ARM CPU market (again)? Fourth time lucky? (Poor ol' Nvidia has had an unfortunate history with this, arguably largely through no fault of their own. The Zune, the Kin with Tegra 1, the Motorola Xoom with Tegra 2, a variety of less-beloved tablets and weird phones with Tegra 3. I think the only successful use-case besides Nintendo and car infotainment stuff was Nvidia's own Shield.)
486sx33 2y ago
I’ve got to assume that fab capacity for SoC ships verses H100s are two different things. With the automotive industry down there could be spare capacity ?
tw04 2y ago
Why wouldn't they just use an emulation layer? There have already been several Switch emulators that run on x86 in the wild.
- Someone1234 2y ago
  Because it is a mobile console, therefore battery life is a limitation and adding an extra layer of indirection (and therefore, work) will drain that battery faster.
  - tw04 2y ago
    I hate to break it to you, but battery life will be at the bottom of the list of Nintendo's concerns when giving you backwards compatibility. If Yuzu was able to get 2.5-3 hours of battery life on the Steam Deck (which isn't that far off from what it gets playing a lot of "native" games) essentially flying blind, Nintendo should be able to do at least that.
    - Rohansi 2y ago
      The Steam Deck also has a significantly larger battery.
    - zapzupnz 2y ago
      4.5 to 9 on the actual Switch with a 4310mAh vs 2 to 3 on the Steam Deck with 5100mAh doesn't seem to prove your point.
The_Colonel 2y ago
As usual with Nintendo products, they will not use the best / fastest chips available, but older ones where the production capacity is not that constrained.
vvillena 2y ago
The Switch SoC is now built on a 16nm process, so there's no need to go for the cutting edge to achieve a sizable improvement. The Samsung fabs Nvidia relied on until very recently could do the job.
icegreentea2 2y ago
Rumour mill has been an NVidia SoC (derived from their automotive line) and manufactured by Samsung on a non-bleeding edge process. https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2023-inside-nvidias-latest-hardware-for-nintendo-what-is-the-t239-processor https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2023-inside-nvidias... The basis for the rumour is basically Linux kernel code and other leaks/hacks for a "T239" SoC that seemingly has all the streamlining and features you'd want for a mobile gaming processor (as opposed to a automotive SoC like the T234 it's supposedly derived from). The Samsung fab is based on T234 being fabbed by Samsung using a ~5 year old process, and Korean industry rumours (https://m-mk-co-kr.translate.goog/news/business/10999380?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://m-mk-co-kr.translate.goog/news/business/10999380?_x_...).
- zeagle 2y ago
  Hopefully this trickles down into an nvidia shield tv successor. I am dreading the day mine dies.
DCKing 2y ago
Nintendo optimizes for cost, not maximum performance and almost always selects older technology. AMD Z2 chips go into $600+ bulky low margin PC gaming handhelds whereas Nintendo likely will want to hit $300-350 while keeping a healthy margin. This also means that the Switch SoC doesn't use an expensive cutting edge manufacturing process. And it probably won't be made in TSMC factories at all. Leaks pretty clearly indicate an Nvidia Ampere based SoC built on Samsung's 8nm process, so it's the same tech as Nvidia's consumer line circa 2020.

by Macha 2y ago

mywittyname 2y ago

I imagine something like the Switch is a great revenue stream for nvidia. It's relatively easy work and they'll be minting Switch 2s, thus paying licensing fees, well into the 2030s. Even if they don't need that money, it's still good to deny the competition of such a lucrative contract.

qwytw 2y ago
There are some hints that Nvidia wants to seriously enter the ARM CPU market (again)? Switch guarantees high demand/volume regardless of anything else. Not clear how lucrative the contract is on its own, though. Presumably it will reduce their current gross margins (which won't necessarily look great in their quarterly report. Nvidia's total revenue is only ~20% higher than Intel's was back in 2021 despite the insane valuations (in large part due to their obscene margins).
- rsynnott 2y ago
  > There are some hints that Nvidia wants to seriously enter the ARM CPU market (again)? Fourth time lucky? (Poor ol' Nvidia has had an unfortunate history with this, arguably largely through no fault of their own. The Zune, the Kin with Tegra 1, the Motorola Xoom with Tegra 2, a variety of less-beloved tablets and weird phones with Tegra 3. I think the only successful use-case besides Nintendo and car infotainment stuff was Nvidia's own Shield.)

486sx33 2y ago

I’ve got to assume that fab capacity for SoC ships verses H100s are two different things. With the automotive industry down there could be spare capacity ?

tw04 2y ago

Why wouldn't they just use an emulation layer? There have already been several Switch emulators that run on x86 in the wild.

Someone1234 2y ago
Because it is a mobile console, therefore battery life is a limitation and adding an extra layer of indirection (and therefore, work) will drain that battery faster.
- tw04 2y ago
  I hate to break it to you, but battery life will be at the bottom of the list of Nintendo's concerns when giving you backwards compatibility. If Yuzu was able to get 2.5-3 hours of battery life on the Steam Deck (which isn't that far off from what it gets playing a lot of "native" games) essentially flying blind, Nintendo should be able to do at least that.
  - Rohansi 2y ago
    The Steam Deck also has a significantly larger battery.
  - zapzupnz 2y ago
    4.5 to 9 on the actual Switch with a 4310mAh vs 2 to 3 on the Steam Deck with 5100mAh doesn't seem to prove your point.

The_Colonel 2y ago

As usual with Nintendo products, they will not use the best / fastest chips available, but older ones where the production capacity is not that constrained.

vvillena 2y ago

The Switch SoC is now built on a 16nm process, so there's no need to go for the cutting edge to achieve a sizable improvement. The Samsung fabs Nvidia relied on until very recently could do the job.

icegreentea2 2y ago

Rumour mill has been an NVidia SoC (derived from their automotive line) and manufactured by Samsung on a non-bleeding edge process. https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2023-inside-nvidias-latest-hardware-for-nintendo-what-is-the-t239-processor https://www.eurogamer.net/digitalfoundry-2023-inside-nvidias... The basis for the rumour is basically Linux kernel code and other leaks/hacks for a "T239" SoC that seemingly has all the streamlining and features you'd want for a mobile gaming processor (as opposed to a automotive SoC like the T234 it's supposedly derived from). The Samsung fab is based on T234 being fabbed by Samsung using a ~5 year old process, and Korean industry rumours (https://m-mk-co-kr.translate.goog/news/business/10999380?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp https://m-mk-co-kr.translate.goog/news/business/10999380?_x_...).

zeagle 2y ago
Hopefully this trickles down into an nvidia shield tv successor. I am dreading the day mine dies.

DCKing 2y ago

Nintendo optimizes for cost, not maximum performance and almost always selects older technology. AMD Z2 chips go into $600+ bulky low margin PC gaming handhelds whereas Nintendo likely will want to hit $300-350 while keeping a healthy margin. This also means that the Switch SoC doesn't use an expensive cutting edge manufacturing process. And it probably won't be made in TSMC factories at all. Leaks pretty clearly indicate an Nvidia Ampere based SoC built on Samsung's 8nm process, so it's the same tech as Nvidia's consumer line circa 2020.