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Funny story. I used to see Steve almost every weekday for a couple of years. I can't speak to his business skills, but I can attest that he never once offered
by not_a_bot_4sho 2y ago
Funny story. I used to see Steve almost every weekday for a couple of years.
I can't speak to his business skills, but I can attest that he never once offered a tip for his daily black iced tea. We'd even have it ready for him before he showed up so he never had to wait! He would pay with cash, and I'd hand him his change and drink, and that was that.
It's funny to me now: one of the richest men in the world and he never once offered a tip.
Frugality aside, he was always very polite and warm so I can't be mad. Makes for a good ice breaker story.
Edit: holy moly, this is a sensitive subject. Please remember this was from a time before tipflation. Tipping meant you left your change behind once in a while only if you felt the desire to show appreciation. It wasn't an obligation. Yes, I still do think it's a funny story. Roast me for being entitled lol
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- arandomusername 2y agoWhat frugality? He was paying the full price that it was being sold at.
- stouset 2y ago[flagged]
- DiogenesKynikos 2y agoThat depends on whether it's table service, or whether you yourself go to the counter to buy your drink. Until very recently, that was the dividing line for tips (except at bars).
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- isodev 2y agoHow cruel can one be to try to come up with such a "line"? In my mind it goes like this: If you're served by a human and tips are not included in normal pay by law, you tip. If it's a country where people can't live with just the one job, you tip a lot.
- renewiltord 2y agoDisappointed that you haven’t sent me my money for being parent to my comment. Do you need ETH address to tip to?
- DiogenesKynikos 2y agoCruel? There are a set of pretty arbitrary customs about where you tip and where you don't tip. You would be considered a weirdo if you tipped at the grocery store. In the US, you have to tip at sit-down restaurants. Traditionally, in the US, people rarely tipped when they had to go to the counter to order and pick up food. That's just the custom, though it seems to be rapidly changing, so that basically any food or drink service now involves tipping.
- hyperhopper 2y agoBy your own logic, do you tip every grocery store cashier? Do you tip your landlord? Do you tip the toll collector on the highway? Tipping everybody who you hand cash to is crazy. And the US is the only place where you have to do it for a large percentage of that population.
- kstrauser 2y agoNo way, no how. I tip really well for people who actually provide service. If you're my waiter or delivery driver, I'll take care of you. Conversely, I have never tipped anyone a single penny for handing me a burger at a drive thru, nor will I, and I don't feel the slightest bit guilty about it. Coffee bars are a grey area. If I'm ordering something fancy, I'll probably tip. If I'm getting a cup of black joe from an urn of pre-made coffee, I may or may not. I'll continue to tip well for people working in traditionally tipped positions. The last few years have seen companies attempt to massively expand that list of positions so that their employees get paid more without their bosses having to pay for it. Those cheapskates can give their workers raises instead of turfing it off onto us.
- bigstrat2003 2y agoBro there's no "wait staff" involved in this transaction. He purchased an item, the person handed it to him. This is well outside the bounds of what should be tipped.
- cryptoz 2y agoIf that is your takeaway from this story, hooooo boy you must be in a rage every day. Places all over Seattle default their machines to tip 18% when you buy a single roll of toilet paper and nothing else. (Edit: you could also pick up a few bottles of expensive wine they sell; maybe you’re in a rush and don’t expect a tip screen ; ooooops you tipped $40 for nothing!) There’s a place that does this less than a block from me right now. Actually probably 2-3 places if you extend a block further.
- qwerpy 2y agoWhere in Seattle does this? Maybe it’s different on the east side. Costco and the grocery store chains here certainly don’t do that.
- cryptoz 2y agoI’m in lower Queen Anne. Every corner store that also sells coffee/sandwiches does this. Maybe 1-5% of customers are buying a sandwich, but 100% are prompted to tip with an 18% default.
- Talanes 2y agoThe problem is that it seems to be necessary to prompt every transaction for a tip to collect any credit tips at all, or at least all the major POS are set-up that way. Which doesn't seem like it should be a big problem in an already not tip-heavy, but there are a surprising number of people who make a very big show of not being able to tip because there's no credit option.
- 2muchcoffeeman 2y agoWait, you guys tip now when you go to the supermarket and get and scan your own toilet paper?
- neeleshs 2y agoIsn't that shifting responsibility to the customer? That is a very odd take
- neeleshs 2y agoIsn't that shifting responsibility to the customer?
- stouset 2y agoThe responsibility is already on the customer. It shouldn’t be, and restaurants should have to pay their workers minimum wage. But it isn’t that way, and stiffing service workers isn’t the way to fix it.
- neeleshs 2y agoNeither is stiffing the customers to the tune of 15-20 percent.
- stouset 2y agoNobody is arguing that tipping culture isn’t stupid. But it’s the society we live in and you know that before you step into a restaurant.
- neeleshs 2y agoAnd nobody has stopped paying tips either. It is very socially awkward not to pay it. But i won't agree that in principle not paying is stiffing the staff. It is stupid, the industry has arm twisted customers to make it socially mandatory to pay and calling it stiffing the staff is blaming another victim.
- gosub100 2y agoAm I the only one who caught the Reservoir Dogs reference?
- not_a_bot_4sho 2y agoSeattle coffee culture is different than what you may be used to.
- AdieuToLogic 2y ago> What frugality? He was paying the full price that it was being sold at. By that logic, most reading these comments should expect to hear from their employer: What annual bonus? What stock options? The company is paying full price that your time was being sold at.
- l33t7332273 2y agoThe “full price” often includes a bonus and stock options.
- xandrius 2y agoAnnual bonus is either performance based or as a retainer to make up for differences in the wages since the person was hired. Stock options are because you could be paid more or you are taking risks for future rewards. A mandatory tip is because your employer doesn't want to pay you full wage and instead of increasing the price and pay you more, they pass it over to the customers. So they get the same profits without having to bother. Quite different reasons.
- godelski 2y ago> Annual bonus is either performance based >>>> We'd even have it ready for him before he showed up so he never had to wait! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- AdieuToLogic 2y ago> Annual bonus is either performance based or as a retainer to make up for differences in the wages since the person was hired. Sounds like a tip to me. > Stock options are because you could be paid more or you are taking risks for future rewards. Sounds to me like the allure of a job in which tipping is expected. > A mandatory tip is because your employer doesn't want to pay you full wage ... Tips are not mandatory by definition.
- bryanrasmussen 2y ago>A mandatory tip evidently the tips under discussion were not mandatory.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- eudushshd 2y ago[flagged]
- not_a_bot_4sho 2y agoI'm curious, which parts of my post come across as entitled? The fact that coffee bars have tip jars? I'd say it's a rather objective story.
- AdieuToLogic 2y ago>> We'd even have it ready for him before he showed up so he never had to wait! > Man, your entitlement just makes me want to never tip. Urban legend has it that the word "tips" is an acronym for "to insure prompt service." Whether or not this is true, the OP's optimization for "prompt service", as defined above, makes an assessment of same qualifying as entitlement puzzling. > Just because someone has the ability to pay you money doesn’t mean you earned it. See again the effort of having the drink ready before the customer was on premise.
- stavros 2y agoI don't know about the US, but in my country this sort of service is rewarded by me continuing to frequent that establishment. If the shop requires money for this convenience, they will have an extra fee, which I will be happy to choose whether I want to pay or not.
- addicted 2y agoIn the US tipping isn’t just a cultural expectation. There are fundamental legal differences between tipped and non-tipped employees. For example, federal minimum wages for tipped employees are close to $2 vs the $7 for non tipped employees.
- dangus 2y agoOn top of this, in the US tipping has a history that has roots in post-slavery racism. In a country with race-based segregation, it's very convenient mechanism to have a method of compensation that can be altered based on your physical appearance.
- cryptozeus 2y agoInteresting that he would pay by cash
- corobo 2y agoMaybe what he really wanted was a super duper whipped cream topped pumpkin spiced coffee and sprinkles but thought he'd save you guys the hassle and just order something that can be poured out of a jug Poor misunderstood Ballmer :(
- not_a_bot_4sho 2y agoNow I feel bad.
- carabiner 2y agoServers make minimum wage in WA, but you weren't a server. I also don't tip if I order at a register.
- AdieuToLogic 2y ago> Servers make minimum wage in WA, but you weren't a server. I also don't tip if I order at a register. And I assume you do not expect any non-required service from those transactions. Which is understandable, yet different from: >> We'd even have it ready for him before he showed up so he never had to wait! If this additional service were provided during your patronage, would that warrant a tip even though interaction was at a register?
- geodel 2y agoThat's why I think these premium additional services must not be offered gratis.
- ugh123 2y ago>If this additional service were provided during your patronage, would that warrant a tip even though interaction was at a register? Sounds like a convenience for everyone involved. Maybe they should have tipped him?
- pensatoio 2y ago[flagged]
- 01100011 2y agoWe allow wages you can't live on but then expect customers to randomly make up the difference but only for some jobs. Make too little to afford an apartment, healthcare and food and you work in the food service industry? You deserve a tip. You work in a meatpacking plant? Oh, get screwed.
- adventured 2y agoWaiters in the US make more than their peers in: Britain, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, Japan, Canada, New Zealand, etc. That's thanks entirely to the tip system.
- cryptoz 2y agoGot a citation for that? Lots of waiters in the US make $2/hour or something before tips (can anyone correct me here?) where the expectation is that tips will bring them up to $7-8/hour, more in line with other minimum wage jobs.
- labcomputer 2y agoIn California (the most populous state), there is no “tipped minimum wage”. Everyone earns at least $20/hr. In fact, about 1/3 of states don’t allow employers to pay less for tipped employees.
- cryptoz 2y agoOh wow really, 2/3 of states let employers pay below minimum wage for tipped employees?
- kevin_thibedeau 2y agoIf they get insufficient tips to meet the minimum, the employer makes up the difference. Nobody makes $2/hour.
- unixhero 2y agoTipping for a convenience item at the till really really sucks. Am I the only one sane on this? Best regards Norway
- skyyler 2y agoIt does suck. But in this culture that Steve exists within, those positions are paid mostly by tips. He certainly could afford to help out the people that prepared his iced tea ritual for him in a timely manner, but he did not.
- itake 2y ago> But in this culture that Steve exists within, those positions are paid mostly by tips. False. Presumably this was in WA, employers have to pay full wages. there is no carve out "tipped" wage (most) of the rest of the USA has. Currently, min wage in Redmond (King County) is $20.29/hr. Many businesses in King County do not allow tipping.
- thatfrenchguy 2y agoMinimum wage != Prevailing wage in that occupation
- skyyler 2y ago>Currently, min wage in Redmond (King County) is $20.29/hr. I'd love to know if that is a livable wage in King County.
- itake 2y agoMy gripe with "living wage" is the term (to me) is too subjective. MIT's living wage [0] seems to include car ownership (despite King county having a decent public transit system and I know several people that don't have cars working in tech). My first place in a great part of town was $1,400/mo in a roomshare. The podments are as low as $750/mo, but MIT says you need at least $2k/mo. [0] - https://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/53033 https://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/53033
- lmpdev 2y agoTipping is a fundamentally flawed and exploitative system
- seizethecheese 2y ago> exploitative I worked in restaurants, and let me tell you, I never felt exploited in tipped positions. If anything, I felt like lucky at least compared everyone else in the restaurant industry. The real exploitation happens in the back of the house…
- usui 2y agoThe parent comment did not specify the exploitative system as limited to tipees.
- sooheon 2y agoIt exploits customers
- e3bc54b2 2y agoI believe GP meant exploitative towards consumers. The customer was presented a deal. That the deal includes non-written, ever increasing additional charges unilaterally imposed by other side is exploitative.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ywvcbk 2y agoI guess if you are talking about the customers then you technically might have a point… tipped workers would probably be making considerably less on average than now if tipping just disappeared. Especially in states like WA, CA, NY etc. which don’t even have a tipped minimum wage
- adventured 2y ago> the richest man in the world (at the time) and he never once offered a tip. Ballmer was never the richest man in the world, not even for a moment. Right now is about the closest he has ever come to that marker (#8, $148 billion).
- not_a_bot_4sho 2y agoYou're absolutely right. Bill Gates was the richest back then. My memory failed me on that part. (It's been over 20 years...) Fixed my comment to reflect this correction. Thanks!
- mvdtnz 2y agoIf you want more money per drink put it on the menu price. Don't passive-aggressively await each customer's random generosity.
- throwaway48476 2y ago"Price discrimination"
- avazhi 2y agoYou think you should have received a tip for working behind the counter? Or were you actually waiting tables and he'd be at a table? If it's the latter I apologise for the brusqueness.
- not_a_bot_4sho 2y agoThis was a coffeehouse in Redmond. Tipping baristas has been a common thing for the past 50-60 years or so on the west coast of the US. And no, I don't think we "should" have received a tip. Most regular customers did tip occasionally. He was an outlier but only notable because of his wealth. Other customers who do never tipped were treated the exact same.
- avazhi 2y agoSo you seem to think that simply because of his wealth he should have been tipping you? The corollary would be the notion that regardless of where you were working at the time, you would have expected a tip from him simply on account of his wealth? There's a huge difference between tips being a thing certain patrons do every once in awhile, and something being an established norm - are you trying to say that in Seattle at the time tipping baristas was literally a well-established norm (ie., not just that it was common but that it was actually the predominant behaviour if not outright expected)? I'm American but have lived in Australia for nearly 20 years, and in Melbourne for the past 15. There's a huge coffee culture here and almost all cafes have a tipping jar. But I can't imagine any baristas finding it odd to the point of mentioning if a patron, even a repeat patron, never put money in the jars. I've never been a Ballmer fan myself although he's gotten more likeable post-Microsoft IMO, but to me it says a lot about his character that he both got his own coffee/tea (as opposed to having a PA do it for him), and if you're saying he was always polite then I have no clue why you'd feel the need to cast aspersions on him by suggesting he should have tipped but didn't.
- not_a_bot_4sho 2y ago> So you seem to think that simply because of his wealth he should have been tipping you? No. But it's funny that he, of all people, didn't. It's the juxtaposition of wealth and frugality that are amusing. > are you trying to say that in Seattle at the time tipping baristas was literally a well-established norm? Yes. Without a doubt. But the norm was to tip infrequently, and not everyone did it. Those that did tipped once a week or 1x/2x a month. And it was usually just their change, significantly less than 10%. > I can't imagine any baristas finding it odd to the point of mentioning if a patron, even a repeat patron, never put money in the jars No one blinked an eye at the regulars who didn't tip. It wasn't a concern. The only exception is when it was a famous billionaire. It's notable. > why you'd feel the need to cast aspersions on him How so? I shared an objective observation. And I made clear that there was no ill will. Not even the slightest bit upset. I feel like a lot of commenters are working through their own issues with tipping that surfaced with this light hearted story. Tipflation sucks, I get it. But this story isn't that.
- godelski 2y agoEveryone, chill Regardless of how you feel about tipping culture we're not talking about the average person nor are we talking about the average *experience*. The dude is worth north of $100bn, and is making nearly $10k per minute![0]. Someone who cannot spend his wealth. Someone who'd have to spend tens of millions of dollars every single day just to stop his wealth from growing. Someone who makes money faster than he can throw hundred dollar bills handfuls at a time. We're not talking about anything normal here because no one here *literally* makes thousands of dollars in the time it takes to wipe their ass. You can become poor, he would need an act of god to do so. We can have a conversation about tipping and how much everyone hates it, but to ignore the fact that we're talking about someone with this kind of money is... ludicrous[1]. Throwing down a hundred bucks means literally nothing to the man. It is not even what a penny is worth to most of you. He's not you and framing the discussion this way is obtuse. Rage on tipping, I don't give a fuck and I'll probably join you. He's not "sticking it to the man" or "standing up for his values" he *is*" the man. He's playing an important role in creating this machine you're raging against. I just don't understand any of you [0] 1e11*0.05/365/24/60 | | | | |_ minute | | | |____ hour | | |________ day | |_____________ Conservative 5% yearly return |_________________ At least 25bn less than he is worth... [1] FWIW, I hate tipping too. Fuck the till based tips with the ever increasing percentages. I frequently click 0. But fuck it man, I'm a grad student. Still, if I'm a regular somewhere and they are giving me special service, I'm gonna throw a few dollars into the tip jar. Tipping culture or not they're going out of their way for me and I should show gratitude in some way (you can also do by other means)
- gs17 2y agoReminds me of his visit to my undergrad. He had a niece or nephew or something (I never met them) who went there, and he was going to visit them. The university planned what amounted to a large science fair to showcase all the projects around and everyone was required to put something together. The day came, he walked in, made a beeline for his relative's project, talked to them for a minute, then hurried right out. My mentor ran after him trying to get him to take some merchandise. In retrospect it's pretty obvious there was a big miscommunication, and he didn't really seem rude about it (supposedly he did talk to a project they put outside the hall because it used a Kinect IIRC). It really wouldn't surprise me to find out the university told him we just so happened to have this research fair going on the day he'd be visiting.
- nirui 2y ago> one of the richest men in the world and he never once offered a tip.... he was always very polite and warm so I can't be mad I bet Mr. Ballmer saved a lot of money from his "polite and warm". I once watched one of TED business talk videos. In the video the businessman proudly claimed that from a very young age, he learned to take advantage of people's empathy towards him as a kid to get a better business term (or something like that, it was long ago I can't fully remember). From that video, I've learned to reduce my empathy/emotional reaction when making decisions. Because you just don't know if the other side is manipulating you into making mistakes. Money is money, you pay what you should've, we'll discuss extra things after that. If Mr. Ballmer never pay the tips that he should've, then he needs to pay more for the product (in the form of added on convenience fee, for example). Of course, if you failed in charging such fee, then that's your fault, for falling into the "polite and warm" trap. BTW: "sensitive" not. But comments on Hacker News are often trended to demand stuff for free, including kindness which is independent of the original stuff. That's very foolish. Today at least you have 15% 20% 25% choice to punish or reward people who directly serve you. If everything is 20% included in the price (oh, it will be like this, it always goes like this), then you just have to sit there and take in whoever got the altitude that day. That's not even how capitalism let alone democracy works.
- switch007 2y agoRich people are the most oddly tight people I've ever met. They'll buy a £5m house one day then the next spend 30 minutes arguing with the gardener that the broken 10 year old mower should just work and most definitely doesn't need replacing
- throw4950sh06 2y agoThey probably bought an expensive one that should be working longer than that. You don't get rich by buying cheap shit that breaks often.
- switch007 2y agoYou don't get poor from that level of rich replacing a lawnmower The mower was £500 (my Dad was the gardener)
- throw4950sh06 2y agoIt's the mindset, not the specific action.
- oneeyedpigeon 2y agoBoris Johnson (ex-Prime Minister) is the classic example here in the UK. Fantastically wealthy, yet infamous for stiffing other people with the bill and never paying them back.
- lynx23 2y agoMy grandma already said: "With the rich, one learns to save." The greedy rich man is so common, its not even a prejudice anymore :-)
- throwaway2037 2y agoFirst, I love this story. I'm on your side. For me personally, the most charming detail is that he paid in cash. I guess it was a while ago! Your story makes me think of the scene from the film "Casino" when the mafia guys spit into the "free" sandwiches that they give to the police. (Ref: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPufB6oaJFE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPufB6oaJFE) It is weird to me that a guy like that even bothers to pick up his own daily black iced tea. Once you are making a few million dollars per year (and you have a net worth > 1B USD), I would assume that everything would be brought to you. Literally, have an assistant who does all of this stuff and brings it to your office. The most highly paid people that I have ever observed up close were in non-stop meetings all day long -- talkin' money! They had no time to buy their own daily coffee or lunch. There was an assistant who would bring everything to their office. That said, maybe he did it to "feel normal". For any human being, having a net worth > 1B USD must really screw with your world view.