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Plastic chemical phthalate causes DNA breakage, chromosome defects, study finds
- ssijak 2y agoWhy are we not considering banning plastics in most household items?
- bpodgursky 2y agoBecause it would drive prices of basic household goods up 400% and make low and middle income families vastly poorer. I'm all for pushing back on chemicals wherever possible, especially in food packaging, but let's be real.
- alyandon 2y agoI try to avoid reheating things in plastic containers. It's about the only thing I can think of I can do as a consumer to reduce the risk of chemicals leeching into the food.
- milch 2y agoThere are "bulk" stores that have no packaging and you fill up what you need into reusable containers that you either buy or bring yourself. They generally have common bulk items like flour but also lots of options for typical grocery store fare. The prices at those stores generally aren't 400% of what they are at a regular grocery store, and if they are higher I'm sure a large part is that this is a niche kind of store rather than how everyone gets their groceries. That's obviously not the whole supply chain, and I'm sure many goods still arrive at that kind of store in plastic, but these tend to be run by the types that avoid plastic anyway so whatever they can get in reusable packaging I'm sure they are getting wrapped in something other than plastic. Anyway, if plastic is going to be used, the exposure from a single 100lbs bag of something that you refill into a container is probably vastly lower than from 100 individually wrapped 1lbs bags
- mrob 2y agoThat kind of thing only works in a high trust society. Given the choice, I'm not going to buy food from bulk bins where some stranger could have contaminated them, whether by malice or incompetence.
- vundercind 2y agoI think furniture and carpet would get it worse than most stuff. The alternatives to plastic (largely glass) in other cases are more like 20-50% more expensive, but furniture? Carpet? Solid wood and wool, leather—god, I dunno what you’d even use for cushion fill that’d last anywhere near as long. Those are closer to 400% the price of synthetic stuff. Or more.
- maxwell 2y agoPine. Oak. Jute. Bamboo.
- reissbaker 2y agoFYI, bamboo is usually actually: 1. Some actual bamboo that has been processed to remove starches and sugars 2. Mixed with incredible amounts of chemical glues (some of which include BPA) Most bamboo products are at least as suspicious to me as plastic.
- cyberax 2y agoAll the bamboo flooring products are engineered (in other words). Oak is great for flooring, but it's impractically heavy for the furniture.
- jabl 2y ago> I dunno what you’d even use for cushion fill that’d last anywhere near as long. Those are closer to 400% the price of synthetic stuff. Or more. AFAIU natural latex is an alternative to the ubiquitous polyurethane foam, and lasts longer. Quite pricey though.
- mschuster91 2y ago> I'm all for pushing back on chemicals wherever possible, especially in food packaging, but let's be real. The devil is that food that comes pre-packed under vacuum or inert atmosphere in plastics lasts much, much longer than food that gets stored in anything else - including tin cans by the way, they're all lined with plastics because acidic food would otherwise literally eat away the can.
- TeeMassive 2y agoJars can be refilled. I think things would actually get cheaper.
- CodeWriter23 2y ago> would drive prices of basic household goods up 400% Glass is nominally more expensive and works. Our go-to food storage is mason jars. $12/dozen, probably cheaper by volume than the plastic crap on the shelves at Target or Walmart.
- haccount 2y agoA bottle of wine by mass is ballpark 50% glass and 50% wine. A one liter glass jar of olives around 300 grams of glass. So it's not merely packaging cost but also about convenience of shipping it around. That said we still manage to ship both of those all over the world despite the unfavorable mass and relative sensitivity of their packaging. The jar of olives however have plastic liner in the jar lid, so you're not escaping plastics anyway. The solution as I see it is to use the right plastics in the right way and ensure proper disposal of the waste.
- morpheos137 2y agoWine and olives also cost more than milk and eggs. You can package milk in glass bottle 5 percent of the weight of the product made at thousands of degrees from burning fossil fuels or you can package it in an inert HDPE container, that is processed at several hundred degrees and weighs say 0.5% of the product contained within. lighter packaging means less fuel burned to ship it. Lower processing temperatures means less fuel burned to make it. Ethylene polymerized into plastic for milk jugs doesn't end up in the air as CO2. Plastic feed stocks directly compete with fuel feed stocks. The less fuel we need to burn to ship things the more carbon is kept out of the atmosphere and the more carbon made into plastic that is stable when buried for thousands of years the less ends up in the air. You can make a lighter foam egg carton for less cost, that better protects the eggs than a paper one. Paper is no more a natural material than plastic. The manufacturing process releases hydrogen sulfide, contaminates water and when the paper rots the toxic dyes in ink printed on it is unbound and free to leach into the environment. Paper cups are coated with persistent waxed and plastics that migrate once the cup that supported them is gone. White paper products are bleached and brown paper is produced with harmful chemicals including even flame retardants at times. What is cheapest, lightest and most stable is usually also the most environmentally friendly thing.
- arcticbull 2y agoOnly certain plastics contain phthalates. There aren't any in polypropylene plastic, polyethylene plastic or polycarbonates. I'm sympathetic, less plastic is probably good - it does have to be a well thought through change. If the change reduces safety, or if it gets manufacturers to switch to a worse risk profile product, we could be net worse off.
- nyanpasu64 2y agoSadly I found a study at https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3222987/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3222987/ saying that many polypropylene polyethylene products release estrogenic chemicals (IDK if it's the same as phthalate) likely from additives, including when bent/deformed. And polycarbonates are infamously made of polymerized BPA and similar chemicals (usually endocrine disruptors).
- arcticbull 2y agoThanks for sharing the study. I will say the made-from argument is less compelling since table salt is made from sodium (explosive) and chlorine (chemical warfare agent) and yet it's pretty yummy. So long as it doesn't degrade, that's not super problematic. However the study I will read.
- nyanpasu64 2y agoPolycarbonates have been known to leach from BPA (https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/bpa-chemical-plastics-leach-polycarbonate-drinking-bottles-humans/ https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/press-releases/bpa-chemica...), I don't know if they've tightened up manufacturing or switched to non-estrogenic or non-bioactive chemicals since then.
- arcticbull 2y agoJust following up! Yeah that's really interesting, I read both of your links. Again thank you for sharing. To be clear my reaction was just to the "made of scary components" thing, I was not dismissing your suggestion that harmful chemicals may leach from the final product.
- Ekaros 2y agoBecause they are very useful. And in general have great properties. You known weight, resiliency, price and so on.
- dylan604 2y agoLook at all of the bottles/containers in your bath/shower. Would you really want glass in a wet slippery area? Metal containers?
- Dig1t 2y agoI mean, you could make a simple and cheap bottle out of aluminum probably? We had shampoo before the widespread usage of plastic bottles, though you are right that they used to come in glass. Perhaps we could use that fancy unbreakable soviet glass. Sounds like a good business idea actually.. Edit: Actually thinking about it, that really is a good business idea. If anyone wants to build that business with me, email me at the address in my bio.
- maeil 2y agoThese exist for cosmetics[1], though the pump is still plastic. Would work fine for other shower products too. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Calvin-Klein-one-Skin-Moisturizer/dp/B000C21050 https://www.amazon.com/Calvin-Klein-one-Skin-Moisturizer/dp/...
- dylan604 2y agoYou just have to convince the vast majority of people that the extra expense of the container is worth it to them. I have taken a very unscientific poll, and a very few number of people would want glass containers. You have to realize that people commenting on HN are not the mass public. The polls I've done were just asking during specific skincare product related conversations. The vast majority were onboard for paraben/phthalate free products made from plant based ingredients, but the no plastic issue was not something people felt strongly about at all.
- TeeMassive 2y agoYou mean like perfume and cosmetics? Sturdy glass with carpets near the bathroom sink and the shower will do the trick. I'll take a few cuts through my life over cancer and chronic diseases.
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- krunck 2y ago"They [phthalates] are used primarily to soften polyvinyl chloride (PVC). " [1] PVC is used in water pipes, bottles, packaging films, blister packs, cling wraps, and seals on metal lids.[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalates [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride#Applications https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride#Application...
- CodeWriter23 2y agoAlso quite commonly used as a fragrance enhancer.
- jackyinger 2y agoThat’s horrifying. But thanks for pointing that out, now I’ve got a real reason to dislike artificial odors (“air fresheners”)
- MichaelZuo 2y agoPVC is also commonly used in 3D printing, with very pungent fumes.
- Filligree 2y agoProfessional 3D printing, perhaps. I imagine it's a common engineering plastic. Home 3D printing fortunately uses mostly PLA, which is biodegradable. Though I'm unsure how degradable it'd be inside your lungs.
- afh1 2y ago>PVC water pipes This is the most relevant one IMO. You can buy glass cups and jars, it doesn't matter if the water you put into them comes through PVC pipes! Even if you buy BPA-free phthalate-free bottled water, I think it's safe to assume that at one point that water went through several meters of PVC pipes to get to that bottle! PVC water pipes must be ubiquitous nowadays, and are certainly better than the older copper alternative, which in turn is better than the older lead alternative! Maybe the next step is special PVC for water piping. Until then I guess we're better than we have ever been, water piping-wise.
- mistrial9 2y agosee "Green Chemistry" in the USA about 20 years ago.. science was well-developed.. also "Body Burden" search term.. largely stone-walled at the politics level. "Product liability is a third-rail in American politics" yes
- diffeomorphism 2y agoWe should also ban plants while we are at it, since there are only a few letters of difference. In other words: Banning certain types of plastics makes sense and we do that all the time. Banning "plastics" is about as sensible as banning dihydrogenmonoxide.
- ugh123 2y agoAlso used in sex toys
- mschuster91 2y agoThese are mostly made of silicon based plastics, glass or metal and by definition don't have that much exposure time to the user's body.
- ugh123 2y agoOf course i'm not referring to toys made from glass or metal. > Prior material analyses of sex toys like those characterized here revealed phthalate concentrations in most tested products at concentrations ranging from 24–60% by weight [11, 14, 15]. In addition, there is growing concern over human exposure to micro-and nano-plastics. The translocation and biouptake of nano-sized particles is now well established [16]. Human exposure to nanoplastics and the potential for enhanced release of plastic additives are of potential concern. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10034881/#:~:text=Prior%20material%20analyses%20of%20sex,micro%2Dand%20nano%2Dplastics https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10034881/#:~:text=P....
- sktrdie 2y agoApart from food packaging, one great way to easily ingest plastic is to use synthetic clothing. Just a basic rubbing of a synthetic sleeve on your nose causes thousands of polyester particles to release in thin air, readily breathable. Not just clothing, but also bedding is a huge issue. With pillows, mattresses and towels mostly made of synthetic fibers. My usual instinct is: try rubbing the synthetic material; if it releases thousands of particles in thin air, stay away from it
- buildbot 2y agoI hate how normalized this is. Breathing in a difficult to break down plastic dust is not something that seems healthy.
- potato3732842 2y agoNitpick: All else being equal you're generally safer being exposed to stable things that don't break down than unstable things that happily react with all sorts of things (and tend to meddle with the chemical processes required for life). If you get to choose between breathing tires and milk jugs pick the milk jugs every time.
- mschuster91 2y ago> All else being equal you're generally safer being exposed to stable things that don't break down than unstable things that happily react with all sorts of things Unless the other thing is asbestos or generally any kind of mineral/anorganic material - pneumoconiosis [1] is nasty in all its variants. There is no mechanism at all for your body to break down or expel anorganic contaminants in your lungs. > If you get to choose between breathing tires and milk jugs pick the milk jugs every time. Well, plastic, glass or metal, no matter what the jugs are made of, they'll hurt your lungs just like the tire dust will. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumoconiosis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pneumoconiosis
- potato3732842 2y ago
- whatshisface 2y agoThe story of phthalates really highlights the drinking from the fume hood aspects of our commercial norms. Phthalates are designed to squeeze between hydrophobic polymers such that their bulk mechanical properties are changed, while remaining chemically inert and not subject to breakdown. The question of what this would do in the human body, which is full of polymers with very sensitively evolved mechanical properties, was obvious - yet it was not asked in a funded capacity until we had been letting it accumulate in our kids for decades. The position of our institutions on this is a clear case of preferring not to know.
- timr 2y agoYou can't just say "squeeze between hydrophobic polymers", as if that's a single thing, and therefore any such "hydrophobic polymer" will be vulnerable to a phthalate. In particular, DNA is not hydrophobic -- it's an extremely polar environment. The known DNA/RNA intercalating chemicals are also very polar (at least, in critical selected locations). For example, Ethidium Bromide: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethidium_bromide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethidium_bromide Point being: assuming that the paper in the headline is true (which I do not assume, but I digress), your theory of the mechanism is probably wrong, and therefore misleading. Edit: having now looked at the paper, they're discussing one specific chemical (bezyl butyl phthalate) which is actually quite polar. It's also an ester, and trivially broken down by common enzymes into a number of different child compounds, any of which could be individually responsible for the claimed effects. Biochemistry is complex.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- whatshisface 2y agoIt gets into hydrophobic binding sites, and accumulates in lipids. > Aromatic compounds, aliphatic hydrocarbons, and halogens are the hydrophobic parts of ligand PAEs. Hydrophobic contact is caused by the spatial proximity of the non-polar amino acid side chains and the hydrophobic substituents on the ligand PAE molecules. Water molecules are released from the hydrophobic region upon hydrophobic contact, and the unconstrained water molecules released can participate in the energy-favorable hydrogen bonding interactions, which enhance the overall binding affinity of the ligand [37,38,39]. Therefore, the hydrophobic interactions between ligands and receptors affect the ability of PAEs to bind to hormone proteins and influence the ability of PAEs to bind to DNA response elements. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10488033/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10488033/
- Dig1t 2y agoReminder that the FDA denied a petition last year to ban these chemicals in food packaging. https://www.fda.gov/food/hfp-constituent-updates/fda-responds-petition-phthalates-food-packaging-and-food-contact-applications https://www.fda.gov/food/hfp-constituent-updates/fda-respond... There is already a mountain of research showing that phthalates are endocrine disruptors and cause developmental defects. The FDA knows this and is doing nothing.
- broof 2y agohttps://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-contaminants/the-plastic-chemicals-hiding-in-your-food-a7358224781/ https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-contaminants/the... CR showing how much of it is in our food. What’s crazy is how unpredictable it is, some have little, and other very similar products have 100x the amount. As a consumer I have little ability to control this.
- b800h 2y agoI hate to be the one to say this (especially as phthalates are horrible) but it needs a suffix: "......in worms."
- calibas 2y ago"The study also showed that C. elegans metabolizes BBP in the same way as mammals, and is impacted at similar BBP levels that occur in humans, suggesting that C. elegans is an effective model for studying the impacts on people."
- lasermike026 2y agoNo one cares. The people profit from this don't care. Virtually everyone who buys these products doesn't care either. If you care and you want to do something about it get on the next spaceship, leave the earth and abandon this unintelligent human species.
- manmal 2y agoThat spaceship‘s interior, functional space outfit, and most equipment will of course also consist of various plastics.
- morpheos137 2y agoThe blind irrational hatred of "plastics" is bordering on a religion or mass hysteria. HN is supposed to be a forum of educated, rational people capable of critical thought. Here are some basic facts. 1. Plastic is often presented in the media as some kind of monolithic hazardous compound where it is not. There are different kinds of plastic. Alternatives are usually economically and environmentally inferior. 2. The most common types of plastic for consumer applications are polyethylene and polypropylene, followed by polyvinyl chloride and polystyrene. PE and PP are biologically and chemically inert. The same reason why they don't break down is the reason why they are harmless. Polystyrene derived from a naturally occuring compound styrene found in some plants and can and does breakdown under attack of UV light, acids, microorganisms. All three PE, PP, and PS are most commonly manufactured without harmful additives. Only PVC uses significant quantities of plasticizers some of which are harmful. Unless you are chewing on your shower curtain you have little to worry about. 3. At least several hundred billion tons of commodity plastics have been mass produced over the last 70 years with little to no quantified, attributable environmental damage from these plastics. Most microplastic is essentially inert dust that is no different from other organic or inorganic dust such as pollen or clay. Plastics are not allergens because they are non reactive and do not stimulate an immune response. It is very likely that blood of animals contains plastic molecules along with thousands of other molecules in trace quantities doing no more harm than natural silt in a river system. 4.The fact that commodity plastics do not readily rot or degrade is a good thing. Petroleum carbon made into stable plastic and buried in a landfill is kept out of the atmosphere. 5. Plastic items are less energy demanding to recycle and produce in the first place because of lower thermal processing requirements than glass, metal or wood. 6. Lignin in wood is a natural plastic. 7. Most of the macro plastics in the ocean comes from Asia and the fishing industry. In the west it is buried in a landfill where it helpfully sequesters carbon. 8. Plastic items are often lighter to ship also consuming less energy that way versus alternatives. 9. Most microplastics in the ocean are from synthetic fibers and tire abrasion. I have yet to see a non handwaving study that these actually result in significant environmental harm. Maybe we should research more durable tire materials. Perversely electric vehicles wear tires quicker than ICE vehicles due to a more aggressive torque curve. Cotton has to be planted (diesel tractor), sprayed with fertilizers and pesticides, picked (diesel), spun, woven, etc. just because it's natural doesn't mean it's better for the environment at mass scale. This true of other things too like glass, metal, paper, etc. 10. People should stop irresponsibly hating on plastics when the alternatives are worse. This neo Luddite Puritanism is just dumb and unscientific. I challenge anyone to rebut my assertions with hard facts that quantify to supposed damage plastic does versus what alternatives would do.
- foxglacier 2y agoThis is misleading. "at levels similar to those detected in humans, [...] egg cells with the wrong number of chromosomes." So where are all these people with the wrong number of chromosomes? They should be everywhere. Maybe all this damage ends up leading to no human growing from the egg, so they're never born but again where are all the infertile women? It should be nearly everyone! It's either written to deceive or it's obviously wrong.
- 486sx33 2y agoSaid it before here and I’ll say it again. Now your #1 exposure is “luxury vinyl flooring” every hotel room is going to this as well as a ton of homes Their magic number is 1:3 polymers to stone for that product to work You’re absorbing it through your feet, luckily most people in the US wear shoes and slippers in the home. But it still releases up to 3% of its polymer volume into your home air within the first year. In the south where it’s hotter, the process accelerates proportional to heat.
- everdrive 2y agoIt seems generally impossible to do much to avoid ingesting plastic. It's literally everywhere. The personal choices you make as a consumer are a drop in the bucket.