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I think electric cars need to be simpler. They should be more like economy cars of today with the drivetrain simply swapped. No touchscreens, no fancy door hand

I think electric cars need to be simpler. They should be more like economy cars of today with the drivetrain simply swapped. No touchscreens, no fancy door handles, no cameras, etc. Those features should be optional with some trims. They need to be reliable and long life to maximize raw material efficiency. Imagine the Chinese electric cars are similar to this but the article is lacking much detail. I also think it would make a lot more sense to have an auxiliary diesel heating system. This would be much more effective than electric heating and likely generate less carbon emissions (at least until we transition to carbon neutral energy infrastructure). A gallon of diesel would last for months if it was just used for heating the cabin, and it would improve the range. It might even be an effective solution for keeping the battery at optimal temperatures but obviously a lot of math is required here to see if the tradeoff is worth it vs integrated battery heating.

gambiting 2y ago
>>No touchscreens, no fancy door handles, no cameras, etc. We own a Volkswagen e-Up, it's exactly like this. We love it too, it's just such a great little car, you can easily get 150 miles out of its 32kWh battery and it fits everything, has no touchscreen, good old buttons for the climate controls and even proper analogue gauges for speed and battery level. I will own it until it falls apart. >>I also think it would make a lot more sense to have an auxiliary diesel heating system. I honestly doubt that anyone would like the "convenience" of having to fill up the tank for it with diesel every now and then. >>and likely generate less carbon emissions CO2 - yes. But these heaters(and devices like Webasto etc) are hugely polluting because unlike the exhaust from your engine their exhaust isn't filtered or treated in any way, all the bad stuff goes directly outside. >>A gallon of diesel would last for months if it was just used for heating the cabin No, it wouldn't - I own two cars with a webasto and they both use about 0.4L of fuel for hour of operation, it's not much but it's not insignificant. Besides, this is a fixed problem - just use a heatpump instead of a resistive heater. A 500W heatpump will produce as much heat as a 2000W resistive heater.
- neuroelectron 2y ago
  I don't understand why your Webasto is using so much fuel. I use one to heat my sunroom in the winter and 2.4 gallons lasts me several days. A small, insulated cabin should require much less.
  - gambiting 2y ago
    Because it also heats the engine as well maybe? Also I guess a car loses heat much faster than your stationary cabin because the flow of air around it as you drive is very good at taking the heat away. Also there is no insulation anywhere. Anyway, from its spec sheet it says it can actually use up to 0.6L/h at full load: https://www.webasto-comfort.com/fileadmin/webasto__media/webasto-comfort.com/INT/Datasheets/Thermo-Top-Evo_datasheet_EN.pdf https://www.webasto-comfort.com/fileadmin/webasto__media/web...
    - neuroelectron 2y ago
      Full load is way too much unless you're arctic trucking. The lowest setting is plenty for my sun room until it gets below 20f or it's especially windy. This uses about a gallon in 6 hours. But you're right, without any insulation, the moving vehicle will lose heat much faster. The room has terrible insulation but at least it has bare brick for the bottom 3 feet which probably retains a lot of the heat. I suspect with proper insulation your fuel usage would be drastically reduced.
  - brewdad 2y ago
    OP's rate of usage equates to using 2.4 gallons in about 23 hours. Assuming you are only using yours during the few hours a day the sunroom is occupied, several days sounds about right.
    - neuroelectron 2y ago
      Yes i run it 6-8 hours a day when I'm using the room. It really surprises me how effective and cheap it is vs a space heater. A solar powered heat pump would be even cheaper, I suppose but this solution was only about $200 to build. I doubt a heat pump would last long enough to pay for itself unless i could figure out away to cheaply acquire and install it.
bryanlarsen 2y ago
Touchscreens are how electric cars are simpler and cheaper. Buttons, knobs, their wirings and linkages are surprisingly expensive once you include fully load the cost (ie, wiring is often done by hand). > Imagine the Chinese electric cars are similar to this but the article is lacking much detail. No, Chinese cars are usually loaded with gimmicks. Even the $10,000 Dolphin has two screens. > This would be much more effective than electric heating and likely generate less carbon emissions Even more efficient is to utilize the waste heat from motors, as a proper heat pump system does. What really kills the range of an EV in the winter is bringing the battery & cabin up to temperature at the beginning. Once the car is moving, the heat pump can scavenge heat from the motor to relatively efficiently heat things. So if you pre-warm your car while it's plugged in the range loss isn't too bad. Diesel heat would prevent you from doing this because you can't run a diesel heater in the garage. So ironically, a diesel heater could reduce your battery's range even though it doesn't use battery power.
- neuroelectron 2y ago
  That's a good point but I can't understand how it would add up vs servos or other electric air controls vs a manual lever that physically opens the baffle. It really doesn't make sense to me how an lcd can be less expensive than a bit of metal and plastic in a switch but I suppose you're right due to economies of scale.
  - AlotOfReading 2y ago
    The cost of the vehicle components is a surprisingly small part of the overall cost of a vehicle. The cost of the line time and the additional tolerances to fit those cheaper components is vastly higher than the cost of stuff they're going to install anyway. Being able to separate design decision timelines on how the UI works from manufacturing timelines is also very helpful organizationally.
    - vasco 2y ago
      I think these are the right answers. LCDs are already wired and don't need someone's hands to do it. And you can, in software, however late you want in the process, add a button for this or remove a button for that. In software development this is a given, but in real world manufacturing it's like a super power.
cogman10 2y ago
> This would be much more effective than electric heating and likely generate less carbon emissions Perhaps in the case of an EV using resistive heating, however, most have moved on to using heatpumps. Heatpumps have COPs that range anywhere from 2 to 10. Which means for every 1kWh in, you get 2 to 10kWh of heat out. A resistive heater has a COP of 1. Fossil fuel power plants operate at ~40->60% efficiency, which means that past a COP of ~2 you are going to be more efficient for heating even if your power source is directly from fossil fuels. It's sort of neat. When talking about generation mixed grids (which most are now) the COP level needed to beat having a diesel burner for CO2 output plummets. But one more point to consider, a modern EV needs an HVAC to ensure the proper operating temperature of a battery. The thing that killed the old Nissan Leafs was the fact that they didn't have any sort of cooling system for their batteries. Put those in hot climates and you are talking major and fast degradation. So, it wouldn't even be (much) lighter to omit the heatpump. To convert the HVAC system for the battery into a climate system is pretty much just requires a single valve.
jauntywundrkind 2y ago
Cars should be Being Your Own Infotainment ready and support that. Software is a cost center. Your car company probably isnt going to win on it. Enable everyone else to compete to be a good infotainment for your base car.
- jfim 2y ago
  They already are. Android auto and Apple carplay use your smartphone's brains to display on the car's touchscreen.
  - olyjohn 2y ago
    Could we just like... have a standard for this already? Instead of two proprietary protocols that do the exact same thing... All it is, is a display and touch screen.
  - jauntywundrkind 2y ago
    The point is the car shouldn't have a touchscreen. It should have a spot meant to let you bring a phone or tablet. I'm curious how much control is offered on these Android Auto systems. Ideally in my mind, there would be protocols for controlling windows, sunroofs, seat controls, HVAC, interior lighting, windshield wipers, defog, maybe even running lights headlights cruise control & those closer to the driving experience aspects. The whole car experience should be BYOD.
numpad0 2y ago
EVs are full of gimmicks because battery cost never hit $100/kWh and they have to justify the premium over ICE, that's it.
- floxy 2y ago
  I though we hit sub $100/kWh in 2024? https://www.visualcapitalist.com/charted-lithium-ion-batteries-keep-getting-cheaper/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/charted-lithium-ion-batteri...
- baybal2 2y ago
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- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  That's a stupid number with inflation in the last 3 years. Anyway, sodium ion will scale to less than that regardless of inflation. A sodium ion battery should cost 40% of nmc.
GuB-42 2y ago
> I think electric cars need to be simpler. Look at the Dacia Spring. The entry level barely has a screen at all, and no camera, not even a backup camera, it doesn't even have a display for it. Also: no A/C, no thermostat, no rear power windows. You have to pay if you want these, and even if you take the "premium" model that has a touchscreen, it is pretty basic, essentially that's just a display for Android Auto / Apple Car Play, and you get a backup camera. That's what you would expect for an economy car. It is less than €20k. Unfortunately, it also has a pretty bad range and overall performance because of its small battery. Of course, batteries are expensive, and it is a cheap car. It means you won't get far with it. That's unlike "A-segment" gas cars (ex: Fiat 500) that while not the most comfortable, have no problem driving cross-country.
- 2Gkashmiri 2y ago
  you know indian tata tiago ev and new MG Comet EV?
- gambiting 2y ago
  The thing is....we have a Volkswagen e-Up as our second car. Gets around 120-150 miles range at most. And you know what? In the 3 years that I owned it, I never got even close to running out. Never had to fast charge it either, simply because we never took it on any journey longer than that range. And yet we use it literally every day. And I suspect for most people in situation similar to ours, the same would be true - you just don't drive more than ~120 miles in a regular day just going to work and back and dropping kids off at school and going shopping. So Dacia Spring is actually fantastic for that segment - it doesn't need to have that long distance capability, because most people don't need it.
- badpun 2y ago
  Biggest problem with Dacia Spring might be its 1-star safety rating.
dzhiurgis 2y ago
Ah yes, also pedals in case you run out of battery. And a tullock spike so you drive safely. The only reason Tesla succeeded is by making sexy car. Sure we are at the cost point where you can making boring EV. It would cost almost the same and only appeal to 1% of market.
- neuroelectron 2y ago
  So basically an electric bike?
- TacticalCoder 2y ago
  > The only reason Tesla succeeded is by making sexy car. I don't think so. They succeeded because the batteries made by Tesla seems incredibly good. A Model S owner I know swapped his batteries after... 280 000 km (175 000 miles). They seem to live long and have better mileage. But neither the Model 3 nor the model Y nor the model X are "sexy": they just have a weird shape. Although I'll grant you the Model S is good looking. To me the german, Porsche and Mercedes for example, make way better looking EV cars than Tesla and with much better interiors. But inferior batteries.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    They succeeded by making an electric car that looked like a normal car not a glorified golf cart or a cartoon car. Secondly they had decent/usable range for many use cases, and they had good performance.
  - dreamcompiler 2y ago
    I don't know whether Tesla batteries are actually better than average. What Tesla absolutely does better than average is their battery management system. Tesla does an exquisite job of keeping their batteries at the optimal temperature and never overcharging them or charging them too fast. Any lithium battery -- even a bad one -- will last much longer with a great BMS.
- delfinom 2y ago
  The people buying Teslas must have a absolutely odd definition of sexy. I put them at a 4/10 at best. Shit I put my daily driver Civic at 6/10 because the driver cockpit is phenomenal and has a significant amount of attention to detail for a cheap car, but I have driven many high end 6-figure cars as well.
bamboozled 2y ago
My friend has a Mitsubishi kei van Electric and it’s exactly what you describe. It’s just like a regular kei van but electric. It is a wonderful, wonderful car. Because of the low center of gravity of the heavy battery. It has no roll around corners like a regular kei van. It’s like a sports car. It is as simple as a car could be. Only thing that’s missing g for me is a 4x4 model.
- neuroelectron 2y ago
  It seems like all the cars like this are only available in Europe
  - IndrekR 2y ago
    Kei cars are a Japanese thing. Mostly unavailable in Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_car https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_car
  - numpad0 2y ago
    Japan has no particular restrictions on exporting used cars but US does for importing cars younger than 25 years old, famously lobbied by Mercedes to block parallel third party imports of their entry level products from cannibalizing American sales. Europe do not have that particular import restriction, and if someone wanted to personally import and register a brand new wheeled fuel drum with appropriate paperwork, they can.
llm_trw 2y ago
>No touchscreens, no fancy door handles, no cameras, etc. Those things cost a few dollars now. This isn't the 00 where it was advanced tech. Physical buttons cost more.
danpalmer 2y ago
> more sense to have an auxiliary diesel heating system. This would be much more effective than electric heating and likely generate less carbon emissions Is this true? Honest question. My understanding is that for cars in general (implicitly driving range), electric cars are lower impact on the energy grid as a whole (ignoring last mile) because of how energy intensive oil is to refine. Is it that diesel specifically is less energy intensive because of how it differs in refinement to petrol? Or is it that because heating is effectively 100% efficient it doesn't matter that you're using the energy in refinement?
- travisb 2y ago
  Mostly the latter. Some of it comes down to the rocket equation because it takes a lot of energy to warm a battery up. If that energy has to come from a battery itself, then the vehicle needs even more battery. Carrying around that extra battery all the time will consume even more energy. And you lose about 8% total electrical energy by putting it through the lithium battery. In comparison two litres of diesel fuel with a nearly 100% efficiency can absolutely be more efficient from a full-system standpoint.
- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  Might as well do a phev then, if you're going to have a heater engine, get some electric recharge as well. What in talking about here is a mostly EV with a 100 ish all electric range, and the diesel/Atkinson adds even more tange
sidewndr46 2y ago
Everything you just said can be applied to regular cars as well.
danans 2y ago
> They should be more like economy cars of today with the drivetrain simply swapped. This is how most first generation EVS from legacy car makers were made, and they dramatically underperformed in range, performance, and comfort due to the assumptions, parts, and manufacturing methods inherited from ICE cars.
- cma 2y ago
  New wave of car makers too, Tesla's first was built on a Lotus platform.
- aitchnyu 2y ago
  Will purpose built EVs have better ride quality than an ICE platform with electric motor?
  - gambiting 2y ago
    I'm not sure what the ride quality has to do with that - it's 100% down to the suspension setup and choices made by the manufacturer, regardless of the drive train. You can have a small city car with amazing plush suspension, and a big long distance cruiser saloon with break-my-back suspension because for some reason the manufacturer made it "sporty" and "nurburgring tuned" - different strokes for different folks.
    - danans 2y ago
      > I'm not sure what the ride quality has to do with that - it's 100% down to the suspension setup and choices made by the manufacturer, regardless of the drive train Suspension isn't infinitely adjustable without other tradeoffs, including cost. Batteries are already very heavy compared to ICE drivetrains. That might be fine for an expensive car like an Audi or BMW that have a high end suspension anyways (probably even driver adjustable), but that probably won't fit into the budgetary constraints of a more affordable vehicle.
- olyjohn 2y ago
  First gen EVs also didn't have lithium batteries.
Panzer04 2y ago
My presumption is that batteries have been expensive enough up until now that it's been most sensible to target upmarket without sacrificing specs vs ICE. My expectation is as prices continue to fall cheaper and cheaper cars will become commercially viable. Cheap EVs suffer the most from the drawbacks that make electric kind of suck (smaller batteries reduce range, more sensitive to heating costs, etc). Once you can shove a 60kwh pack in a cheap car, most of those drawbacks go away.
- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  Sodium ion is a game changer. 40%the cost of nmc, 2/3 the cost of lfp.
Animats 2y ago
Detroit has a "more car per car" kick they go into whenever sales are down. Electric cars were viewed as a premium product in Detroit, and they're still priced that way. This backfired. Batteries got cheaper, US-made but electric cars didn't. Ford F-150, base price: $39,345, per Car and Driver. Ford F-150, electric, base price: $49,875, per Car and Driver. Ford did badly at this. Stellantis did even worse. (Stellantis is the company that ended up with Fiat, Chrysler, Jeep, and Dodge.) Stellantis had a big push into crappy mild hybrids (22 mile electric range). Nobody likes them. A few years ago, the CEO was talking about achieving profit margins as large as as tech companies through higher prices and fees. Now, there are unsold vehicles piled up at dealerships, the market share of Stellantis brands is half what it was a few years ago, and Stellantis is getting a new CEO. SHere's what the dealers have to say about that.[1] [1] https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/25136851/letter_to_tavares.pdf https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/25136851/letter_to_ta...
- tim333 2y ago
  There seemed to a bit of a weird thing that happened with covid. Pre covid things were normal, then when covid shut things there were a glut of hire cars etc which people didn't want when locked down so prices and production crashed. Then post covid people wanted cars again but not enough were being produced, there was a shortage, high prices and people were willing to pay $60k for a car with gizmos, base price $40k as there were none of the cheap ones available. Now we are returning to normal and the $60k ones don't sell. I don't buy often but I occasionally fly to nice airport and have rented fiat pandas. Pre covid they were from £5/day rent, £7000 odd to buy. Post, rental rates went silly the other way like £100/day. Now about £15/day rent, £13k ? to buy. I miss the olden days of 5 years ago with £7k cars. I'm not sure manufacturing costs have really gone up 2x in that period? I guess they were probably losing money at £7k.
beloch 2y ago
EV economics are a little bit odd. The difference in cost between a base model and a luxury model is smaller than the difference between a short-range and long-range model, just because of how expensive batteries are. Manufacturers are, no doubt, keenly aware of this. If a manufacturer released the stripped down, no-frills car you're describing, a competitor would release a competing car with all the bells and whistles and slightly less range at the same price-point.
tmm84 2y ago
Touchscreens, door handles, cameras, etc. are what most of the new car buyers are wanting. "Most" but obviously not "all". If I was a salesperson trying to show off a new EV to a customer and it was like a car from circa 2000 that would be difficult. If they had a car that was low on modern tech they would wonder what is so great about a "new" car? If they have a recent model they would wonder why should I give up my current car for this "lesser" car? Thus EVs try to be as premium as possible to convience buyers the vehicle is better. The people who would gain the most from EVs will probably get them when they start to be more common and cheap. Think how long it took for cheap Honda Civics to hit the road from when the first Fords rolled off the line. Of course, it'll probably be quicker this time around.
- gambiting 2y ago
  I don't know, I think most people just want a cheap car. Dacia sold an absolute metric tonne of the Sandero and Duster, and these cars didn't even have AC in the base spec for the longest time. A basic cheap EV would do the same(and in fact it does already - Dacia offers the Spring following the same philosophy, apparently it is selling really well).
Melatonic 2y ago
Natural gas seems like a better fit for this.....
whamlastxmas 2y ago
If you’re handy you could buy and install your own diesel or gas heater for under $1k. The same type they use for camper vans.
UncleOxidant 2y ago
Agree on the simpler part. I don't see the point of these fancy door handles that require power to open. I'd much prefer a screenless dashboard with old fashioned analog display of parameters. And buttons and knobs. Cameras, though, are pretty cheap these days. > I also think it would make a lot more sense to have an auxiliary diesel heating system I think a heat pump (which some EVs have now) would be better especially if it could pump heat away from the engine and batteries.
beambot 2y ago
The car you describe is illegal. Backup cameras (and thus a screen too, though needn't be a touchscreen) have been mandatory on all new vehicles since 2018.
- gnabgib 2y ago
  * In (very) few countries
teleforce 2y ago
The new EV from car manufacturer Caterham has no entertainment just screen mirroring to reduce its weight [1],[2]. As for air conditioning (heat and cold) there's more efficient heat pump system that's being used by Tesla that's 3 times more efficient than the conventional system [3]. 1) Caterham V: Lightweight EV sport car without infotainment (just phone mirroring) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41719818 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41719818 2) Caterham Project V: https://caterhamcars.com/en/models/projectv https://caterhamcars.com/en/models/projectv 3) Heat pumps make new Tesla more efficient: https://heatpumpingtechnologies.org/heat-pumps-makes-new-tesla-more-efficient/ https://heatpumpingtechnologies.org/heat-pumps-makes-new-tes...
csomar 2y ago
> Imagine the Chinese electric cars are similar to this but the article is lacking much detail. I've ridden in the dolphin and it has two screens and a bunch of tech attached to it (including gps directions). It's the cheapest BYD car. Two screens + CPU cost probably less than $300. Software doesn't incur extra cost per vehicle.
- ex7820le_j 2y ago
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beAbU 2y ago
Look at what Dacia is doing with their cars. The cheaper models literally come with a phone mount and nothing else. I think there are some buttons for climate etc.
seanmcdirmid 2y ago
All of that would make them more expensive. The digital tech is actually more affordable than the analog tech, and even a backup camera has a huge savings on mirrors and allows for more compact pillars. Old cars are cheaper because they are old, not because they are somehow cheaper to make.
Casteil 2y ago
Absolutely. Simple, and modular - with wide availability of (perhaps 'universal') replacement parts. We're observing in real time - mostly via skyrocketing insurance rates - the impact & unsustainability of expensive, all-proprietary parts. Vehicles are getting totaled out now more than ever for things that should be repairable. Speaking of diesel - what I really want is a simple plug-in hybrid truck or SUV (e.g. a USA Toyota Hilux or 4runner) with ~50-80 miles of battery-only range, and a diesel generator for 'indefinite' range extension.

gambiting 2y ago

>>No touchscreens, no fancy door handles, no cameras, etc. We own a Volkswagen e-Up, it's exactly like this. We love it too, it's just such a great little car, you can easily get 150 miles out of its 32kWh battery and it fits everything, has no touchscreen, good old buttons for the climate controls and even proper analogue gauges for speed and battery level. I will own it until it falls apart. >>I also think it would make a lot more sense to have an auxiliary diesel heating system. I honestly doubt that anyone would like the "convenience" of having to fill up the tank for it with diesel every now and then. >>and likely generate less carbon emissions CO2 - yes. But these heaters(and devices like Webasto etc) are hugely polluting because unlike the exhaust from your engine their exhaust isn't filtered or treated in any way, all the bad stuff goes directly outside. >>A gallon of diesel would last for months if it was just used for heating the cabin No, it wouldn't - I own two cars with a webasto and they both use about 0.4L of fuel for hour of operation, it's not much but it's not insignificant. Besides, this is a fixed problem - just use a heatpump instead of a resistive heater. A 500W heatpump will produce as much heat as a 2000W resistive heater.

neuroelectron 2y ago
I don't understand why your Webasto is using so much fuel. I use one to heat my sunroom in the winter and 2.4 gallons lasts me several days. A small, insulated cabin should require much less.
- gambiting 2y ago
  Because it also heats the engine as well maybe? Also I guess a car loses heat much faster than your stationary cabin because the flow of air around it as you drive is very good at taking the heat away. Also there is no insulation anywhere. Anyway, from its spec sheet it says it can actually use up to 0.6L/h at full load: https://www.webasto-comfort.com/fileadmin/webasto__media/webasto-comfort.com/INT/Datasheets/Thermo-Top-Evo_datasheet_EN.pdf https://www.webasto-comfort.com/fileadmin/webasto__media/web...
  - neuroelectron 2y ago
    Full load is way too much unless you're arctic trucking. The lowest setting is plenty for my sun room until it gets below 20f or it's especially windy. This uses about a gallon in 6 hours. But you're right, without any insulation, the moving vehicle will lose heat much faster. The room has terrible insulation but at least it has bare brick for the bottom 3 feet which probably retains a lot of the heat. I suspect with proper insulation your fuel usage would be drastically reduced.
- brewdad 2y ago
  OP's rate of usage equates to using 2.4 gallons in about 23 hours. Assuming you are only using yours during the few hours a day the sunroom is occupied, several days sounds about right.
  - neuroelectron 2y ago
    Yes i run it 6-8 hours a day when I'm using the room. It really surprises me how effective and cheap it is vs a space heater. A solar powered heat pump would be even cheaper, I suppose but this solution was only about $200 to build. I doubt a heat pump would last long enough to pay for itself unless i could figure out away to cheaply acquire and install it.

bryanlarsen 2y ago

Touchscreens are how electric cars are simpler and cheaper. Buttons, knobs, their wirings and linkages are surprisingly expensive once you include fully load the cost (ie, wiring is often done by hand). > Imagine the Chinese electric cars are similar to this but the article is lacking much detail. No, Chinese cars are usually loaded with gimmicks. Even the $10,000 Dolphin has two screens. > This would be much more effective than electric heating and likely generate less carbon emissions Even more efficient is to utilize the waste heat from motors, as a proper heat pump system does. What really kills the range of an EV in the winter is bringing the battery & cabin up to temperature at the beginning. Once the car is moving, the heat pump can scavenge heat from the motor to relatively efficiently heat things. So if you pre-warm your car while it's plugged in the range loss isn't too bad. Diesel heat would prevent you from doing this because you can't run a diesel heater in the garage. So ironically, a diesel heater could reduce your battery's range even though it doesn't use battery power.

neuroelectron 2y ago
That's a good point but I can't understand how it would add up vs servos or other electric air controls vs a manual lever that physically opens the baffle. It really doesn't make sense to me how an lcd can be less expensive than a bit of metal and plastic in a switch but I suppose you're right due to economies of scale.
- AlotOfReading 2y ago
  The cost of the vehicle components is a surprisingly small part of the overall cost of a vehicle. The cost of the line time and the additional tolerances to fit those cheaper components is vastly higher than the cost of stuff they're going to install anyway. Being able to separate design decision timelines on how the UI works from manufacturing timelines is also very helpful organizationally.
  - vasco 2y ago
    I think these are the right answers. LCDs are already wired and don't need someone's hands to do it. And you can, in software, however late you want in the process, add a button for this or remove a button for that. In software development this is a given, but in real world manufacturing it's like a super power.

cogman10 2y ago

> This would be much more effective than electric heating and likely generate less carbon emissions Perhaps in the case of an EV using resistive heating, however, most have moved on to using heatpumps. Heatpumps have COPs that range anywhere from 2 to 10. Which means for every 1kWh in, you get 2 to 10kWh of heat out. A resistive heater has a COP of 1. Fossil fuel power plants operate at ~40->60% efficiency, which means that past a COP of ~2 you are going to be more efficient for heating even if your power source is directly from fossil fuels. It's sort of neat. When talking about generation mixed grids (which most are now) the COP level needed to beat having a diesel burner for CO2 output plummets. But one more point to consider, a modern EV needs an HVAC to ensure the proper operating temperature of a battery. The thing that killed the old Nissan Leafs was the fact that they didn't have any sort of cooling system for their batteries. Put those in hot climates and you are talking major and fast degradation. So, it wouldn't even be (much) lighter to omit the heatpump. To convert the HVAC system for the battery into a climate system is pretty much just requires a single valve.

jauntywundrkind 2y ago

Cars should be Being Your Own Infotainment ready and support that. Software is a cost center. Your car company probably isnt going to win on it. Enable everyone else to compete to be a good infotainment for your base car.

jfim 2y ago
They already are. Android auto and Apple carplay use your smartphone's brains to display on the car's touchscreen.
- olyjohn 2y ago
  Could we just like... have a standard for this already? Instead of two proprietary protocols that do the exact same thing... All it is, is a display and touch screen.
- jauntywundrkind 2y ago
  The point is the car shouldn't have a touchscreen. It should have a spot meant to let you bring a phone or tablet. I'm curious how much control is offered on these Android Auto systems. Ideally in my mind, there would be protocols for controlling windows, sunroofs, seat controls, HVAC, interior lighting, windshield wipers, defog, maybe even running lights headlights cruise control & those closer to the driving experience aspects. The whole car experience should be BYOD.

numpad0 2y ago

EVs are full of gimmicks because battery cost never hit $100/kWh and they have to justify the premium over ICE, that's it.

floxy 2y ago
I though we hit sub $100/kWh in 2024? https://www.visualcapitalist.com/charted-lithium-ion-batteries-keep-getting-cheaper/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/charted-lithium-ion-batteri...
baybal2 2y ago
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AtlasBarfed 2y ago
That's a stupid number with inflation in the last 3 years. Anyway, sodium ion will scale to less than that regardless of inflation. A sodium ion battery should cost 40% of nmc.

GuB-42 2y ago

> I think electric cars need to be simpler. Look at the Dacia Spring. The entry level barely has a screen at all, and no camera, not even a backup camera, it doesn't even have a display for it. Also: no A/C, no thermostat, no rear power windows. You have to pay if you want these, and even if you take the "premium" model that has a touchscreen, it is pretty basic, essentially that's just a display for Android Auto / Apple Car Play, and you get a backup camera. That's what you would expect for an economy car. It is less than €20k. Unfortunately, it also has a pretty bad range and overall performance because of its small battery. Of course, batteries are expensive, and it is a cheap car. It means you won't get far with it. That's unlike "A-segment" gas cars (ex: Fiat 500) that while not the most comfortable, have no problem driving cross-country.

2Gkashmiri 2y ago
you know indian tata tiago ev and new MG Comet EV?
gambiting 2y ago
The thing is....we have a Volkswagen e-Up as our second car. Gets around 120-150 miles range at most. And you know what? In the 3 years that I owned it, I never got even close to running out. Never had to fast charge it either, simply because we never took it on any journey longer than that range. And yet we use it literally every day. And I suspect for most people in situation similar to ours, the same would be true - you just don't drive more than ~120 miles in a regular day just going to work and back and dropping kids off at school and going shopping. So Dacia Spring is actually fantastic for that segment - it doesn't need to have that long distance capability, because most people don't need it.
badpun 2y ago
Biggest problem with Dacia Spring might be its 1-star safety rating.

dzhiurgis 2y ago

Ah yes, also pedals in case you run out of battery. And a tullock spike so you drive safely. The only reason Tesla succeeded is by making sexy car. Sure we are at the cost point where you can making boring EV. It would cost almost the same and only appeal to 1% of market.

neuroelectron 2y ago
So basically an electric bike?
TacticalCoder 2y ago
> The only reason Tesla succeeded is by making sexy car. I don't think so. They succeeded because the batteries made by Tesla seems incredibly good. A Model S owner I know swapped his batteries after... 280 000 km (175 000 miles). They seem to live long and have better mileage. But neither the Model 3 nor the model Y nor the model X are "sexy": they just have a weird shape. Although I'll grant you the Model S is good looking. To me the german, Porsche and Mercedes for example, make way better looking EV cars than Tesla and with much better interiors. But inferior batteries.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  They succeeded by making an electric car that looked like a normal car not a glorified golf cart or a cartoon car. Secondly they had decent/usable range for many use cases, and they had good performance.
- dreamcompiler 2y ago
  I don't know whether Tesla batteries are actually better than average. What Tesla absolutely does better than average is their battery management system. Tesla does an exquisite job of keeping their batteries at the optimal temperature and never overcharging them or charging them too fast. Any lithium battery -- even a bad one -- will last much longer with a great BMS.
delfinom 2y ago
The people buying Teslas must have a absolutely odd definition of sexy. I put them at a 4/10 at best. Shit I put my daily driver Civic at 6/10 because the driver cockpit is phenomenal and has a significant amount of attention to detail for a cheap car, but I have driven many high end 6-figure cars as well.

bamboozled 2y ago

My friend has a Mitsubishi kei van Electric and it’s exactly what you describe. It’s just like a regular kei van but electric. It is a wonderful, wonderful car. Because of the low center of gravity of the heavy battery. It has no roll around corners like a regular kei van. It’s like a sports car. It is as simple as a car could be. Only thing that’s missing g for me is a 4x4 model.

neuroelectron 2y ago
It seems like all the cars like this are only available in Europe
- IndrekR 2y ago
  Kei cars are a Japanese thing. Mostly unavailable in Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_car https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kei_car
- numpad0 2y ago
  Japan has no particular restrictions on exporting used cars but US does for importing cars younger than 25 years old, famously lobbied by Mercedes to block parallel third party imports of their entry level products from cannibalizing American sales. Europe do not have that particular import restriction, and if someone wanted to personally import and register a brand new wheeled fuel drum with appropriate paperwork, they can.

llm_trw 2y ago

>No touchscreens, no fancy door handles, no cameras, etc. Those things cost a few dollars now. This isn't the 00 where it was advanced tech. Physical buttons cost more.

danpalmer 2y ago

> more sense to have an auxiliary diesel heating system. This would be much more effective than electric heating and likely generate less carbon emissions Is this true? Honest question. My understanding is that for cars in general (implicitly driving range), electric cars are lower impact on the energy grid as a whole (ignoring last mile) because of how energy intensive oil is to refine. Is it that diesel specifically is less energy intensive because of how it differs in refinement to petrol? Or is it that because heating is effectively 100% efficient it doesn't matter that you're using the energy in refinement?

travisb 2y ago
Mostly the latter. Some of it comes down to the rocket equation because it takes a lot of energy to warm a battery up. If that energy has to come from a battery itself, then the vehicle needs even more battery. Carrying around that extra battery all the time will consume even more energy. And you lose about 8% total electrical energy by putting it through the lithium battery. In comparison two litres of diesel fuel with a nearly 100% efficiency can absolutely be more efficient from a full-system standpoint.
AtlasBarfed 2y ago
Might as well do a phev then, if you're going to have a heater engine, get some electric recharge as well. What in talking about here is a mostly EV with a 100 ish all electric range, and the diesel/Atkinson adds even more tange

sidewndr46 2y ago

Everything you just said can be applied to regular cars as well.

danans 2y ago

> They should be more like economy cars of today with the drivetrain simply swapped. This is how most first generation EVS from legacy car makers were made, and they dramatically underperformed in range, performance, and comfort due to the assumptions, parts, and manufacturing methods inherited from ICE cars.

cma 2y ago
New wave of car makers too, Tesla's first was built on a Lotus platform.
aitchnyu 2y ago
Will purpose built EVs have better ride quality than an ICE platform with electric motor?
- gambiting 2y ago
  I'm not sure what the ride quality has to do with that - it's 100% down to the suspension setup and choices made by the manufacturer, regardless of the drive train. You can have a small city car with amazing plush suspension, and a big long distance cruiser saloon with break-my-back suspension because for some reason the manufacturer made it "sporty" and "nurburgring tuned" - different strokes for different folks.
  - danans 2y ago
    > I'm not sure what the ride quality has to do with that - it's 100% down to the suspension setup and choices made by the manufacturer, regardless of the drive train Suspension isn't infinitely adjustable without other tradeoffs, including cost. Batteries are already very heavy compared to ICE drivetrains. That might be fine for an expensive car like an Audi or BMW that have a high end suspension anyways (probably even driver adjustable), but that probably won't fit into the budgetary constraints of a more affordable vehicle.
olyjohn 2y ago
First gen EVs also didn't have lithium batteries.

Panzer04 2y ago

My presumption is that batteries have been expensive enough up until now that it's been most sensible to target upmarket without sacrificing specs vs ICE. My expectation is as prices continue to fall cheaper and cheaper cars will become commercially viable. Cheap EVs suffer the most from the drawbacks that make electric kind of suck (smaller batteries reduce range, more sensitive to heating costs, etc). Once you can shove a 60kwh pack in a cheap car, most of those drawbacks go away.

AtlasBarfed 2y ago
Sodium ion is a game changer. 40%the cost of nmc, 2/3 the cost of lfp.

Animats 2y ago

Detroit has a "more car per car" kick they go into whenever sales are down. Electric cars were viewed as a premium product in Detroit, and they're still priced that way. This backfired. Batteries got cheaper, US-made but electric cars didn't. Ford F-150, base price: $39,345, per Car and Driver. Ford F-150, electric, base price: $49,875, per Car and Driver. Ford did badly at this. Stellantis did even worse. (Stellantis is the company that ended up with Fiat, Chrysler, Jeep, and Dodge.) Stellantis had a big push into crappy mild hybrids (22 mile electric range). Nobody likes them. A few years ago, the CEO was talking about achieving profit margins as large as as tech companies through higher prices and fees. Now, there are unsold vehicles piled up at dealerships, the market share of Stellantis brands is half what it was a few years ago, and Stellantis is getting a new CEO. SHere's what the dealers have to say about that.[1] [1] https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/25136851/letter_to_tavares.pdf https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/25136851/letter_to_ta...

tim333 2y ago
There seemed to a bit of a weird thing that happened with covid. Pre covid things were normal, then when covid shut things there were a glut of hire cars etc which people didn't want when locked down so prices and production crashed. Then post covid people wanted cars again but not enough were being produced, there was a shortage, high prices and people were willing to pay $60k for a car with gizmos, base price $40k as there were none of the cheap ones available. Now we are returning to normal and the $60k ones don't sell. I don't buy often but I occasionally fly to nice airport and have rented fiat pandas. Pre covid they were from £5/day rent, £7000 odd to buy. Post, rental rates went silly the other way like £100/day. Now about £15/day rent, £13k ? to buy. I miss the olden days of 5 years ago with £7k cars. I'm not sure manufacturing costs have really gone up 2x in that period? I guess they were probably losing money at £7k.

beloch 2y ago

EV economics are a little bit odd. The difference in cost between a base model and a luxury model is smaller than the difference between a short-range and long-range model, just because of how expensive batteries are. Manufacturers are, no doubt, keenly aware of this. If a manufacturer released the stripped down, no-frills car you're describing, a competitor would release a competing car with all the bells and whistles and slightly less range at the same price-point.

tmm84 2y ago

Touchscreens, door handles, cameras, etc. are what most of the new car buyers are wanting. "Most" but obviously not "all". If I was a salesperson trying to show off a new EV to a customer and it was like a car from circa 2000 that would be difficult. If they had a car that was low on modern tech they would wonder what is so great about a "new" car? If they have a recent model they would wonder why should I give up my current car for this "lesser" car? Thus EVs try to be as premium as possible to convience buyers the vehicle is better. The people who would gain the most from EVs will probably get them when they start to be more common and cheap. Think how long it took for cheap Honda Civics to hit the road from when the first Fords rolled off the line. Of course, it'll probably be quicker this time around.

gambiting 2y ago
I don't know, I think most people just want a cheap car. Dacia sold an absolute metric tonne of the Sandero and Duster, and these cars didn't even have AC in the base spec for the longest time. A basic cheap EV would do the same(and in fact it does already - Dacia offers the Spring following the same philosophy, apparently it is selling really well).

Melatonic 2y ago

Natural gas seems like a better fit for this.....

whamlastxmas 2y ago

If you’re handy you could buy and install your own diesel or gas heater for under $1k. The same type they use for camper vans.

UncleOxidant 2y ago

Agree on the simpler part. I don't see the point of these fancy door handles that require power to open. I'd much prefer a screenless dashboard with old fashioned analog display of parameters. And buttons and knobs. Cameras, though, are pretty cheap these days. > I also think it would make a lot more sense to have an auxiliary diesel heating system I think a heat pump (which some EVs have now) would be better especially if it could pump heat away from the engine and batteries.

beambot 2y ago

The car you describe is illegal. Backup cameras (and thus a screen too, though needn't be a touchscreen) have been mandatory on all new vehicles since 2018.

gnabgib 2y ago
* In (very) few countries

teleforce 2y ago

The new EV from car manufacturer Caterham has no entertainment just screen mirroring to reduce its weight [1],[2]. As for air conditioning (heat and cold) there's more efficient heat pump system that's being used by Tesla that's 3 times more efficient than the conventional system [3]. 1) Caterham V: Lightweight EV sport car without infotainment (just phone mirroring) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41719818 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41719818 2) Caterham Project V: https://caterhamcars.com/en/models/projectv https://caterhamcars.com/en/models/projectv 3) Heat pumps make new Tesla more efficient: https://heatpumpingtechnologies.org/heat-pumps-makes-new-tesla-more-efficient/ https://heatpumpingtechnologies.org/heat-pumps-makes-new-tes...

csomar 2y ago

> Imagine the Chinese electric cars are similar to this but the article is lacking much detail. I've ridden in the dolphin and it has two screens and a bunch of tech attached to it (including gps directions). It's the cheapest BYD car. Two screens + CPU cost probably less than $300. Software doesn't incur extra cost per vehicle.

ex7820le_j 2y ago
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beAbU 2y ago

Look at what Dacia is doing with their cars. The cheaper models literally come with a phone mount and nothing else. I think there are some buttons for climate etc.

seanmcdirmid 2y ago

All of that would make them more expensive. The digital tech is actually more affordable than the analog tech, and even a backup camera has a huge savings on mirrors and allows for more compact pillars. Old cars are cheaper because they are old, not because they are somehow cheaper to make.

Casteil 2y ago

Absolutely. Simple, and modular - with wide availability of (perhaps 'universal') replacement parts. We're observing in real time - mostly via skyrocketing insurance rates - the impact & unsustainability of expensive, all-proprietary parts. Vehicles are getting totaled out now more than ever for things that should be repairable. Speaking of diesel - what I really want is a simple plug-in hybrid truck or SUV (e.g. a USA Toyota Hilux or 4runner) with ~50-80 miles of battery-only range, and a diesel generator for 'indefinite' range extension.