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BYD EV teardown in Japan reveals secrets to its affordability
- chiffre01 2y agoTLDR: Economies of scale.
- neilv 2y agoI would call out design optimizations as distinct, though maybe economies of scale helps enable those.
- Overtonwindow 2y agoAffordable - made cheaply - is equated in this article heavily as “better” but that is not always the case. I would still hesitate to buy a Chinese vehicle over safety and quality.
- gambiting 2y agoNah - I own a Volvo XC60 that was built in China and it's about 10x better in terms of build quality than my last Mercedes that was entirely built in Germany and creaked like an old horse cart, I was in the dealership probably once a month fixing various issues with the interior. I've owned the Volvo for 4 years now and it has had zero issues, no creaks, fit and finish is great. So no, I wouldn't be concerned about owning a Chinese made vehicle, not in the slightest.
- applied_heat 2y agoWas your Volvo in China? I didn’t think any Volvos manufactured by geely were being exported, and production volume was still very low
- gambiting 2y agoIt was made in China in Chengdou and brought over(by train!), I'm in the UK. I was told by my dealer that conventional petrol/diesel models were made in Sweden, but right hand drive PHEVs were made in China, no idea if that's still the case nowadays.
- daghamm 2y agoThey are usually made where they are sold, this was probably a special case for your config. New tariffs will probably stop this completely
- whizzter 2y agoThere's apparently some dealings in process due to the tariffs being imposed on moving final assembly or trying to use their local petrol manufacturing as a leverage for avoiding the tariffs. No idea about what'll come out of it though.
- neilalexander 2y agoEven within Volvo's own lineup, my C40, built in China, has had far fewer quality issues than my previous S60 had, which was built in the USA.
- whizzter 2y agoGeely made an incredibly smart move buying Volvo. Ford had run down their reputation by forcing penny pinching cheap designs, but there was still a lot of engineering prowess in-house that had gone underutilized and made them a tech-team to catch up the Chineese tech, design and manufacturing to concurrent standards. The only lingering worry is if they're gonna find themselves content with the amount of technology transfer and move on (because Volvo standards requires a high price point and non neglible market share).
- GenerWork 2y agoMotor Trend just gave the Lincoln Nautilus - a SUV made in China - their award for SUV of the year[0] and noted its build quality. While "Made In China" still carries a bad rap, I think that's going to change pretty quickly for more luxury goods like cars. [0] https://www.motortrend.com/news/lincoln-nautilus-2025-suv-of-the-year/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/lincoln-nautilus-2025-suv-of...
- tim333 2y agoI think there's a big difference between made in China for an off brand Chinese company which tends to be bad, and made in China for Apple/Volvo/Some western brand with quality control, which tends to be very good.
- tln 2y agoYou can and should check euroNCAP or IIHS for independent safety ratings if you care. BYD's 4 model entered in euroNCAP have 5 stars.
- hooverd 2y agoHeh, that used to be German and then Japanese cars.
- bryanlarsen 2y agoIt's generally acknowledged that the Chinese made Tesla's are higher quality than the American ones.
- kube-system 2y agoWhat does "[insert nationality] vehicle" even mean? Most cars are made up of designs and parts that come from all around the world. Any discussion of the topic of product origin and quality is always heavily oversimplified. There are many variables at play here: target marketing, design, manufacture, regulatory environment, etc.
- ASalazarMX 2y agoEuropean NCAP has given great marks to BYD vehicles in crash tests. Just google "BYD crash test", most of the results come from them. Compared to them, my Wrangler is a square death machine, although almost anything is safer than a Wrangler.
- seabass-labrax 2y agoWell-designed off-roaders protect their occupants against the kinds of accident that might occur at relatively low speeds on rough terrain, with very rigid frames to prevent the occupants being crushed when rolling over. That is the very opposite design philosophy to most road vehicles, which are protected chiefly against high-speed collisions with other vehicles. The NCAP tests only cover the second kind of accidents. I don't know whether the off-roading safety philosophy applies to your car though, as many SUVs and crossover cars are only designed to look the part, and are in fact more similar to ordinary road cars in safety design.
- lll-o-lll 2y agoClever design with reusable (between models) components. That’s “efficiency”. Efficient design often means better quality. All countries that get into car manufacture seem to follow a similar path. 10-15 years of crap cars while building scale and expertise, then maturity with much higher quality. I think we are seeing the mature Chinese car industry now and it’s frankly impressive.
- SoftTalker 2y agoAll cars today are being made to squeeze maximum profit. The plastics will last maybe 10 years and the electronics will be NLA soon after the warranty expires. If your main computer dies the car is scrap. There is no serious effort to make new cars repariable or maintainable other than for very routine things like brakes. Cars are becoming more and more disposable items, by design.
- shiroiushi 2y agoI guess you're not old enough to remember how horrible the interiors (both plastics and upholstery) in 1970s and 1980s cars were, nor how often they broke down.
- SoftTalker 2y agoI remember. Yeah they weren't great for the most part, especially for US manufacturers. The thing is though, those '70s and '80s cars were simple. They could be repaired. And any workshop could do it, you didn't have to rely on the dealership. With not much more than a basic set of wrenches you could repair many things yourself if you wanted to. That's not the same today. Many systems are effectively unrepairable, they are not designed to be repairable. Especially on EVs. Is there any EV that has been designed for easy battery replacement? Once these cars are out of warranty, any major problems will scrap the car.
- shiroiushi 2y ago>That's not the same today. Yes, it is. My last car was a 2015 model that lasted until 2019, so I don't think my information is out-of-date, but it was a Mazda and was very easy to repair (which pretty much never happened anyway aside from regular maintenance). Any my cars before that were easy too. >Many systems are effectively unrepairable, they are not designed to be repairable. Citation needed. People like you always make claims like this, but I think they're all myths. I've never seen any evidence of this myself. Perhaps it's because I didn't have American cars, and only Japanese ones? I don't know. >Especially on EVs. This is a different issue, and I can't speak to it as I've never had one. The vast majority of cars were and still are ICE cars, and your claim is about all cars. >those '70s and '80s cars were simple You obviously never looked under the hood of a 1980s car, with its maze of vacuum tubing.
- nothercastle 2y agoLots of advantages from labor to financing to government subsidies and environmental regulations. It would be nearly impossible to compete with that
- torginus 2y agoGenerally I think it's much more useful to link the orignial, rather than the churnalism article written about it. https://cn.nikkei.com/industry/icar/56879-2024-10-09-09-00-23.html https://cn.nikkei.com/industry/icar/56879-2024-10-09-09-00-2... Although it's in Chinese, Google Translate can help you out. The TLDR version is that BYD integrates many components of the electric drivetrain into a single sub-assembly, and shares said assembly between multiple vehicles to achieve volume cost savings. Which is fine for bringing the costs down, but keep in mind their cars have zero repairability, which might be a concern, considering the engineers though the components aren't protected well enough agains water ingress. Although, I admit my skepticism might be unfounded. I've owned the same car for close to a decade, and I haven't replaced anything besides consumables and fluids.
- normie3000 2y agoHow can multiple vehicles share a drivetrain?
- gambiting 2y agoWhat do you mean? Multiple vehicles can use the same electric motor and battery, exactly the same as ICE vehicles share the same engines across different model lines.
- mikedelfino 2y agoIt was meant to say that multiple vehicles share the same drivetrain model, not the same unit.
- ASalazarMX 2y agoI find your reply even more confusing than the question :P
- ClassyJacket 2y agoThey use the same design of part in multiple different models of vehicle instead of designing a new one with small differences
- neuroelectron 2y agoI think electric cars need to be simpler. They should be more like economy cars of today with the drivetrain simply swapped. No touchscreens, no fancy door handles, no cameras, etc. Those features should be optional with some trims. They need to be reliable and long life to maximize raw material efficiency. Imagine the Chinese electric cars are similar to this but the article is lacking much detail. I also think it would make a lot more sense to have an auxiliary diesel heating system. This would be much more effective than electric heating and likely generate less carbon emissions (at least until we transition to carbon neutral energy infrastructure). A gallon of diesel would last for months if it was just used for heating the cabin, and it would improve the range. It might even be an effective solution for keeping the battery at optimal temperatures but obviously a lot of math is required here to see if the tradeoff is worth it vs integrated battery heating.
- gambiting 2y ago>>No touchscreens, no fancy door handles, no cameras, etc. We own a Volkswagen e-Up, it's exactly like this. We love it too, it's just such a great little car, you can easily get 150 miles out of its 32kWh battery and it fits everything, has no touchscreen, good old buttons for the climate controls and even proper analogue gauges for speed and battery level. I will own it until it falls apart. >>I also think it would make a lot more sense to have an auxiliary diesel heating system. I honestly doubt that anyone would like the "convenience" of having to fill up the tank for it with diesel every now and then. >>and likely generate less carbon emissions CO2 - yes. But these heaters(and devices like Webasto etc) are hugely polluting because unlike the exhaust from your engine their exhaust isn't filtered or treated in any way, all the bad stuff goes directly outside. >>A gallon of diesel would last for months if it was just used for heating the cabin No, it wouldn't - I own two cars with a webasto and they both use about 0.4L of fuel for hour of operation, it's not much but it's not insignificant. Besides, this is a fixed problem - just use a heatpump instead of a resistive heater. A 500W heatpump will produce as much heat as a 2000W resistive heater.
- neuroelectron 2y agoI don't understand why your Webasto is using so much fuel. I use one to heat my sunroom in the winter and 2.4 gallons lasts me several days. A small, insulated cabin should require much less.
- tonyedgecombe 2y agoA more interesting question is why are EV's built in the West so expensive.
- blinding-streak 2y agoCost of labor is much higher. Safety regulations are more strict. Environmental protections are more strict. It's more expensive across the board.
- andrewinardeer 2y agoIs paying more for a product that meets higher safety standards and more environmentally friendly a bad thing? No, probably not. That said, the lowest pricing point is a massive competitive advantage.
- cbo100 2y agoThe Chinese made cars meet the same safety standards as US and EU made cars (at least the ones sold outside of China do). I thought GP was talking more about the safety standards for workers in the factories - which do cost more to meet.
- MrHamburger 2y ago> Is paying more for a product that meets higher safety standards and more environmentally friendly a bad thing? If end user does not care about these moral high grounds, then yes it is a bad thing for business.
- toomuchtodo 2y agoLook at profits of legacy auto. It’s not the labor, they’re prioritizing profits over investment to deliver on EVs (kicking the can and making it the future’s problem).
- threeseed 2y agoThey are simply following the market. Hybrids have become increasingly popular as the charging infrastructure is still lacklustre in many parts of the world. And that's not a problem that can be solved overnight.
- eeasss 2y agoWhen USA and Japan wake up from their gasoline obsession the world would have moved on and Asia, South America and Africa would be on Chinese Evs. Europe will drive EU made cars from Chinese and European brands.
- llm_trw 2y agoJapan has a hydrogen obsession more than a gasoline one.
- shiroiushi 2y agoYep, they saw long ago that gasoline was on its way out, and decided hydrogen was the fuel of the future. Unfortunately, it seems they bet on the wrong horse, and now are extremely reluctant to admit this and try to change gears and move to EVs.
- Moldoteck 2y agoAnd this obsession relies on their nuclear fleet to generate green h2 cheaper
- BobaFloutist 2y agoIf the problem is cheap generation, you could do a lot worse than solar. My understanding is that storage and transmission is a huge obstacle too.
- wil421 2y agoHow much does a scooter cost vs a Chinese EV in Asia?
- slaw 2y agoA scooter is 3k RMB in China.
- pragmomm 2y ago[flagged]
- gigatexal 2y agoI thought it was because China was subsidizing the cars a ton. Or have they really cracked EVs and economies of scale just got them there. Maybe a bit of both?
- bryanlarsen 2y agoMost of the direct subsidies ended in 2022.
- ASalazarMX 2y agoThat's how you bootstrap a disruptive technology. The west also subsidizes EVs, but in a weak and disorganized way.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- tim333 2y agoBit of both. But they are cracking along on the tech front, especially the batteries.
- Kon-Peki 2y agoThis website does not make it seem as though the BYD Atto 3 is so great in terms of efficiency: https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/energy-consumption-electric-car https://ev-database.org/cheatsheet/energy-consumption-electr...
- ZeroGravitas 2y agoSeems breadly comparable with the Model Y LFP, slightly less efficient, slightly larger battery, lower price.
- Kon-Peki 2y agoThe BYD is less expensive and has the design and tech that people will like. But it is not comparable with a Model Y. It has half the cargo capacity, cannot tow, has a puny rooftop load capacity, significantly less payload, etc. If you are a small family running around town, the BYD is fine. If you are taking a trip with adults and luggage, the Model Y will do things the BYD can't. If you are taking a trip to IKEA and buying things that aren't particularly heavy but are bulky and box-shaped, the Model Y will carry far more than the BYD, with seats folded in a way that has less probability of damage to the longer boxes, etc.
- csomar 2y agoModel Y is more than double the price. Not a fair comparison.
- Kon-Peki 2y agoGoodness, if only someone would enumerate some reasons why the BYD is not broadly comparable to the Model Y.
- ZeroGravitas 2y ago> not great ... in terms of efficiency Is how this thread started. And a similar sized car with the same LFP batteries has a similar efficiency to the Model Y. Tesla has generally been regarded as making efficient EVs. edit: probably worth mentioning that the Teslas with LFP use BYD made batteries. second edit: and for those unaware, the LFP batteries are safer and cheaper, but their key drawback is that they are less energy dense. This both explains a key Chinese EV advantage (LFP is about half their market) and why comparing them with non LFP cars on efficiency is misleading.
- avidphantasm 2y agoWhat does this high level of integration mean for repairability? Lack of/difficulty in repairability can raise lifecycle costs or reduce longevity. The latter is especially worrying for lifecycle carbon emissions.
- beAbU 2y agoThe upside is that parts availability will not be a problem if basically all cars on the road use all the same important bits.
- DoingIsLearning 2y ago> Lack of/difficulty in repairability can raise lifecycle costs or reduce longevity. The latter is especially worrying for lifecycle carbon emissions. Sunsetting ICE's in Human transport (specially in urban environments) is an Environmental and Public Health benefit that far outweighs whatever carbon estimation you make.
- mensetmanusman 2y agoBYD is a state-backed enterprise with unknown levels of profitability when full subsidies are accounted for. Tariffs will be needed by countries that refuse to create state backed companies but which also want an automotive industry and a manufacturing base that can make weapons of war.
- carlosjobim 2y agoLieutenant, I think you forgot one detail: customers.
- sidifjfjdidbd 2y agoThe same customers who might now have jobs instead of seeing them shipped offshore? The purpose of an economy is not to increase shareholder value when the majority of the shares are held by .1% of the population.
- carlosjobim 2y agoThe purpose of an economy is neither to produce things that are so expensive that people cannot afford them. Since Western auto companies have failed, they should admit defeat, the leadership (and shareholders) should admit they are failures, and maybe open the doors to those who can make products which customers can afford. Car factories have used robots to make cars for decades now. The cars should have become cheaper with time, not several times more expensive. And if the factors making cars unaffordable for the average citizen is beyond the carmakers control, then those factors should be adressed. But tariffs sure won't make cars cheaper.
- nehal3m 2y agoThe purpose of a system is what it does and the economy definitely does what you described. Not saying that ought to be the case but unfortunately it is.
- churchill 2y agoWhich still doesn't solve the problem: the real issue is that Western companies are financialized to the max. That's why Elon repeatedly lies to get a stock bump. Also, why companies like Google, Boeing, and Intel allow product quality to degrade, as long as they can prop up stock price for the next quarter. So, tariffs won't solve anything. Which is why despite the Jones Act, China builds 200x more ships that the US. Or, hasn't Tesla received billions in government assistance? what about the major automakers that'd have crumbled around 2008 if not for the US gov. pouring rivers of cash into them? So, protectionism is only a band-aid: it doesn't change the fact that American businesses have developed a short-termist culture that only cares for the next quarter.
- auguzanellato 2y ago> The source article highlights the so-called “E-Axle” used by BYD, which is comprised of eight different components. > It includes not only the motor, inverter, transmission and controller but also the onboard AC charger, the DC-to-DC converter and the battery monitoring system (BMS). Sounds like that if one of those ever needs replacement you might as well just replace the whole car.
- robocat 2y agoMore likely you get a cheap replacement from a wrecked car. And when assemblies are common, workshops learn how to fix them. I avoid buying cars with low volumes and custom parts: if anything is broken then it is expensive and slow to fix.
- jeffreyrogers 2y agoRelevant: https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-ceo-driving-xiaomi-su7-electric-vehicles-ev-2024-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/ford-ceo-driving-xiaomi-su7-... "The CEO of Ford says he's been driving a Xiaomi EV for the past 6 months and doesn't want to give it up"
- potato3732842 2y agoPeople like that drive cars like that because they're interesting and being forced to live with the thing makes him better understand it and why any given aspect of it is a pro or a con and for who in what situations it has nothing to do with whether it's overall a good car for sale in a particular market at a particular point in time.
- ZeroGravitas 2y agoThe CEO of a major car company saying a foreign phone companies car is "fantastic" and he "doesn't want to give it up" is sending a far stronger signal than you are admitting here.
- tho42i34j234234 2y ago> "their views on quality are different from those of Japanese manufacturers." I'm not sure what the reality is, but this "Japan is special" delusion needs to go. Yes, they have stuff that is top-notch, but this is not a given (just like in China). For instance, in India, the top auto-manufacturer Suzuki (like other Japanese/Korean manufacturers) is known to skimp on construction quality and fares quite poorly in terms of safety rating etc. This while Indian manufacturers like Tata/Mahindra are coming out with solidly built models that achieve top-scores in safety. If you look for videos on Indian Social media, you'll almost always find them pan on Suzuki for its flimsy construction - which is esp. concerning since road safety in India is quite poor.
- cws_ 2y agoA heuristic does not need to be true 100% of the time to be useful. Subaru were well known for having timing belt issues that caused motor failure for much of the 2000-2020 era, but were still popular. That doesn't tarnish the good names of the manufacturers that people actually think about when they think about Japanese quality.
- left-struck 2y agoOf course Indian people are going to promote India brands on Indian social media, even if they aren’t being paid. I would be surprised if I didn’t see that, not if I do see it. This story is so old, here’s how it goes: Germany used to manufacture the cheap vehicles after ww2 ended, then Japan started getting their shit together and they started undercutting german cars, then German car manufacturers, noticed they were losing market, so they started marketing their vehicles as more premium, better quality and more exclusive, with a higher price tag. They can’t compete in the same market as Japanese cars so they go to a new market, and they genuinely had been manufacturing for longer so maybe the cars were better quality. Then Japanese cars build a reputation as the manufacturing improves and South Korea starts producing cheap cars as well so now the Japanese manufacturers have to market their cars higher up in the market. Then china comes along… next is India, after that Africa. Along with this , in each of those countries goes the increasing number of middle class citizens and rising costs due to better pay and standards for those citizens… Alright this is a oversimplified version but like dude, of course indian social media is going to praise indian cars.
- Animats 2y agoThe article is a bit confusing. The basic concepts here are 1) integrating the motor, rear axle, and differential into one unit, and 2) integrating all the high voltage electrical components and their controls into another unit. This doesn't mean the electronics are down at axle level. If you look at a modern "E-Axle", it's a wheel and axle assembly with a modestly sized motor mounted on the side of the differential.[1] These are BYD E-Axles for large vehicles. Others integrate those into buses and trucks. The car-sized versions would be smaller. The E-Axle component contains all the "greasy bits", as automakers use the term. Looking at those things, you can see them going together easily on an automated assembly line. No need to work at funny angles, assemble big objects around other objects, or other assembly hassles. No shafting or belts - just wires. This is reasonable enough. It is, however, a major change from traditional automaking priorites. Traditionally, The Engine was the core vehicle component. Final drive, differential, and axle were way down in priority. GM's worst plant used to be Detroit Gear and Axle. (It was bought in 1992 by a startup guy who made it non-union, wrote a book about it, and then went bankrupt.) So it's a bit of a shock for auto companies to find that the axle people are now in charge. An electric car needs only an e-axle, a battery, and a HV electronics box as the power train. That comes from the power train supplier. The vehicle manufacturer adds a frame, wheels, body, interior, and dashboard. It all plugs together with CANbus. [1] https://dotto-tech.ca/byd-e-axle-%26-system https://dotto-tech.ca/byd-e-axle-%26-system
- DoingIsLearning 2y agoI was aware that BYD was initially a battery manufacturer OEM and then went into EV's. This drive 'unit' that BYD is using across their vehicles is that for internal use only? Or is it also being sold as an OEM part for other manufacturers to produce their own branded vehicles?
- Animats 2y agoBYD's FinDreams unit sells powertrain parts to OEMs.[1] The E-Axle for trucks seems to be available. They don't seem to promote the car-sized version. Mostly, FinDreams sells batteries. Mostly, BYD sells entire vehicles. They're big enough that they don't have to be a parts supplier to others. Tesla talks big about making a semitruck, but BYD is shipping them in quantity, and DHL is buying them. Range about 200 miles, which is enough for the daily trips of most local trucks. They're not trying to do long-haul trucks yet. Just take over the local trucking market. BYD isn't selling cars in the US much, but they make trucks in Los Angeles.[2] Quietly, local trucking is going electric. Especially in China and Europe.[3] The US lags in electric medium trucks. Ford CEO Jim Farley called the BYD Seagull “pretty damn good.” If US manufacturers don't keep up with BYD, “20% to 30% of your revenue is at risk.” [1] https://www.linkedin.com/company/findreams-technology-co-ltd/about/ https://www.linkedin.com/company/findreams-technology-co-ltd... [2] https://en.byd.com/truck/about/ https://en.byd.com/truck/about/ [3] https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/ID-57-%E2%80%93-ZETs-China_Final.pdf https://theicct.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/ID-57-%E2%80%...
- tim333 2y agoPeople are saying the secret to Chinese cars is putting bits on the axle or whatever but I remember like 20 years ago stories like this >...China has pulled way ahead of the U.S. and the rest of the world by one key measure. >China graduates in excess of three times more engineers — electrical, industrial, bio-chemical, semiconductor, mechanical, even power generation — with bachelor's degrees than the U.S. university system. https://eu.jsonline.com/story/archives/2017/08/02/china-engineers-its-next-great-leap-its-students/527951001/ https://eu.jsonline.com/story/archives/2017/08/02/china-engi... and now maybe it's bearing fruit.
- ProllyInfamous 2y agoI am a recent hybrid drivetrain -convert [Camry, this year]. For most Americans I think hybrid vehicles are the current "best solution" — simply because our infrastructure already has phenomenal gasoline distribution capabilities. I can drive many hundreds of miles on ten gallons of gasoline [~50mpg real-world city driving]. When I lost power for 48 hours this past summer, I spent about 2 gallons of gasoline (already in my Camry Hybrid) to keep my refrigerator and computers running (using a 12VDC->120VAC inverter). Despite owning a beastmode 9000W propane/gasoline generator, the only reason I'd need it would be to run air conditioners... Using the SDS+ hammer drill off of an extension cord sourced from my car [instead of a flatbed w/ generator]... makes for great jobsite conversation topics. As a rarely-political American, I do think the tarriffs on BYD are unnecessary and ultimately bad for most of us "just citizens."
- jacknews 2y ago"producing as many of the components as possible in-house and integrating them." So the complete opposite of modularity and repairability, and therefore, sustainability. When anything on the e-axle breaks, you'll likely have to replace the entire thing, which might well be uneconomical, so you'll scrap the entire car. Maybe part of the low cost is all the savings they make on repair documentation, etc.