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iOS 18.2 Lets EU Users Delete App Store, Safari, Messages, Camera and Photos

154 points by sandwichsphinx 2y ago

thimabi 2y ago
Why gate such a basic functionality for users in the European Union? People elsewhere do not have access to alternative app stores anyway. Is allowing them to uninstall such apps too much?
- stavros 2y ago
  Because it doesn't benefit Apple to allow you to uninstall these apps.
  - thimabi 2y ago
    I mean, on their own, many of the core apps probably don’t bring much revenue to Apple. I can understand their reluctance to allow uninstalling the App Store, but what do they gain by preventing someone from uninstalling the Camera, for instance? Those who want to do so will use an alternative app anyway.
    - _rs 2y ago
      Because you'll have users who do it by accident and lose basic hardware functionality of their device without knowing how to fix it
      - ronsor 2y ago
        I don't know why this is downvoted. There are definitely a ton of users who will accidentally delete the camera and then complain their phone is broken, wasting everyone's time.
        kergonath 2y ago
        People have already apps they can delete. And when they do it by mistake, they just go to the App Store to download it again, wasting nobody’s time. Why would it be any different? There’s just need to be a button in the settings if the App Store itself is deleted.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - spacebanana7 2y ago
      Safari generates billions of dollars in revenue for Apple through the default search engine deal with Google.
      - thimabi 2y ago
        You’re right, I forgot about that.
      - latexr 2y ago
        Google lost an antitrust case specifically because of that, so doesn’t look like that’s a deal that can continue. https://www.ghacks.net/2024/08/07/u-s-judge-rules-that-google-has-an-illegal-search-engine-monopoly/ https://www.ghacks.net/2024/08/07/u-s-judge-rules-that-googl...
    - LordKeren 2y ago
      -
- yapyap 2y ago
  cause they dont need to, if Apple isn’t forced to give up their deathgrip on the user they won’t.
- afavour 2y ago
  Apple aren’t doing this out of the goodness of their own hearts, they’re being forced to by the EU. So unless their hand is being forced elsewhere they’re not going to do it.
  - xp84 2y ago
    Yup. You can bet most developed countries will start to follow suit now. Remember Apple's argument before they exhausted their appeals with the EU was that they could never do any of this, and the sky would fall, and their whole business would be destroyed. Now, that will have been proven to be absolute poppycock as they begin to abide by all these regulations in this one (large) region. I expect regulators in Japan, UK, Australia, etc. will start to say "Yeah, we want that too." And Apple has zero plausible argument left for why consumers everywhere else don't deserve or can't have the same level of choice. Obviously not in America though, since we don't have a functioning government, just an executive branch that doesn't have the support of Congress, and a judicial branch that believes strongly that only an act of Congress could create the authority needed to actually rein them in. And a Congress which would ideally like to avoid doing any legislating besides passing a continuing resolution or debt ceiling bill every now and then, since there's too much fundraising work to do.
  - latexr 2y ago
    I think GP’s point is that in this case gating the feature is extra work with zero benefit for Apple², so why not just do it anyway³? ¹ At the very least more code and cases and testing where it could go wrong. ² Maybe reduced support calls? ³ Spite could be a reason.
    - afavour 2y ago
      Zero benefit? They get to keep a captive audience using the App Store. What's not to like?
      - latexr 2y ago
        That makes no sense. If you’re the type of person who’d want to delete the App Store app despite not having access to alternatives, you’re not someone who’d ever want it or use it or buy from it.
- al_borland 2y ago
  I’m sure a non-trivial number of users would delete apps that are required for basic functionality. Stopping them prevents support issues that could require resetting to factory settings, if they didn’t add some other way to get the App Store back.
  - prmoustache 2y ago
    It is mentionned in the article that the apps that can be uninstall have a quick reinstall option in the settings.
    - SirMaster 2y ago
      Sounds anti-competitive to have special install options for your own apps right in the settings menu of the device... /s
  - Teever 2y ago
    Is that really sufficient justification for stopping users from having more control over their device? Like should we really let the 'Grandma Finds the Internet'[0] meme be the reason that you and I can't make decisions for ourselves? Whatever cost savings that Apple has from avoiding support for these people is dwarfed by the money they make from stopping competitors to these apps from growing due to these control mechanisms. That's the real reason apple doesn't want to do this and has to be kicked dragging and screaming by the EU. [0] https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/Grandma-Finds-The-Internet https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/Grandma-Finds-The-Internet
    - gjsman-1000 2y ago
      > Is that really sufficient justification for stopping users from having more control over their device? People who want more control over their devices; have Android. Not all solutions need fit all desires.
      - Teever 2y ago
        That isn't enough. The public interest is served by the end users having more control over their devices than Android and Apple currently offer.
- betaby 2y ago
  Folks in USA/CA would remove Safari and then return phone to the carrier/Apple as defective. No, I'm not kidding. I saw that multiple times - Windows messed on laptop? Laptop within return window? Return it is!
  - rty32 2y ago
    Eh, people return their devices because don't know how to correctly use them all the time, I don't see how it is different here. And people definitely don't need to intentionally do this -- in the US, most major retailers allow you to return opened products within the return window (although it could get complicated with so-called "activatable devices")
    - wtallis 2y ago
      It's not even a matter of whether the user knows how to use their device. I've seen plenty of Windows laptops shipped with a somewhat-broken software configuration out of the box, and on multiple occasions I've seen two "identical" machines fresh out of the box get offered different software updates with the end result that a few hours and several reboots later, one system is noticeably misbehaving.
    - betaby 2y ago
      > I don't see how it is different here. iPhones are almost 'idiot proof' for a lack of a better description. Allowing removal ( or rather hiding ) of the apps will 'break' that impression. I'm surely in favour of making iPhones/IPads general computers, but that not going to happen. Those legislations from EU are no help.
      - downWidOutaFite 2y ago
        i must be an idiot. As an iphone user for about a year i'm constantly confused what's happening or stuck on some screen or can't find what i need or mysteriously trigger some screen or popup.
      - xp84 2y ago
- a2128 2y ago
  Releasing it as a feature everywhere would require at least a bit of public explanation and might give the appearance that EU forced Apple into doing something good for everyone. Being petty and releasing the bare minimum georestricted only to EU requires no public explanation and gives more the appearance that this is some dumb law Apple was forced to comply with. At least that's probably their thinking.
  - mrweasel 2y ago
    That is probably a more likely explanation that "because it would lose them money". I suspect that the number of people who are actively going to switch to a different App Store is minimal. Users can already install other browsers, even if they are still using WebView, same of messaging apps and I doubt that many would care to replace the camera app. Photos maybe, but is that really a huge lose for Apple? That saves them from storing your photos. People on HN is often assuming that people would leave the App Store in droves, if given to option. I really don't see that happening.
- dgellow 2y ago
  The EU forced them. Apple has been fighting pretty hard to not have to do any of these changes, it seems they gave up
- space_oddity 2y ago
  And push Apple to improve their default apps
AshleysBrain 2y ago
Are the apps actually uninstalled for real, or does the system just hide them to create the same appearance as uninstalling to satisfy legal requirements?
- amelius 2y ago
  I suspect that Safari is still needed as a "webview" component for various services.
  - wslh 2y ago
    It is the reverse... Safari uses the webview.
    - amelius 2y ago
      Maybe but that's just semantics.
      - saurik 2y ago
        Sort of? Like, the way it at least used to work, is that there was a MobileSafari.app that used the UIWebDocument class from UIKit.framework and which in turn used WebKit. I don't think anyone is expecting Apple to uninstall the UI widgets that are being used by numerous existing third-party applications, and yet it is still meaningful to be able to delete the Safari "app".
      - sleepybrett 2y ago
        It's not. None of the UI is present in webview. Webview is just the 'rendering pane'.
      - wslh 2y ago
        No, it is not. Just create an app in Xcode and see that you have a WebView component. Easy to check: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/webkit/webview https://developer.apple.com/documentation/webkit/webview
    - deleted 2y ago
galkk 2y ago
Nice. I hope that eventually they will force app stores to allow users to resell/inherit/gift digital goods such as apps. If I can sell something physical that I don't need anymore, I should be able to do so with the things I "bought" on, let's say, Steam.
- spacebanana7 2y ago
  To play devils advocate, couldn’t that allow a single purchase of a movie to be watched by millions of people? At which point no studio would sell it digitally. In theory this could’ve happened with DVDs, but it was too much hassle for a single disc to be shared by that many people. You could compromise with restrictions on how many times a file could be sold etc, but that concedes the point of a digital good not really being your property. And it might be used as a Trojan horse for even more DRM and surveillance.
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    > To play devils advocate, couldn’t that allow a single purchase of a movie to be watched by millions of people? At which point no studio would sell it digitally. You're not thinking creatively enough. One day, somebody's going to use the law and make the "sales" API-driven. This will then turn it into a rental service where you can "buy" a game for two hours for $37.50 and then "sell" the game back to the mother ship for $36.50 of credit. The mother ship being, of course, whatever VC firm puts millions into having the world's largest Steam account. I don't have to like the current ecosystem of no-transfers and DRM, to acknowledge breaking all that down would have major economic consequences against studios. Right now is especially not the time to be asking for this, because the whole video game industry is in deep financial trouble at the moment.
    - protimewaster 2y ago
      Why is this worse than a company renting out physical copies, though? This is the way games rentals work for physical copies. The renter buys one copy and rents it out numerous times. (It's also the way libraries work for books, of course.)
ewuhic 2y ago
[flagged]
7thpower 2y ago
Please Siri next, please, please, please.
- latexr 2y ago
  You can disable Siri and there’s no app for it on the Home Screen. What exactly are you asking for?
  - 7thpower 2y ago
    Optionality.
    - latexr 2y ago
      What’s not optional about being able to disable it entirely?
      - 7thpower 2y ago
        Not being able to replace it with an alternative that is a first class citizen.
nikeee 2y ago
What will happen if I uninstall Messages and someone sends me a text message?
- non-nil 2y ago
  And where will photos be saved? In a folder in the Files app? The horror! The Photos app has been so deeply integrated into the OS it’s almost difficult to imagine it not being there. Not that I would mind, I recently switched to Android so I can rsync my .dng files around, thankyouverymuch.
- g-b-r 2y ago
  Has someone ever sent you a message while your phone was off?
- flohofwoe 2y ago
  Probably not much because everybody uses WhatsApp anyway ;) (in Europe that is)
- SirMaster 2y ago
  Same thing that happens when someone sends you a message on any messaging platform when you don't have the app to view the message. It just sits unviewed by you.
LeicaLatte 2y ago
EU iOS is the closest thing to a OS X like experience on iPhones. Wish these features came to more regions.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- NotPractical 2y ago
  No, it's not close at all. macOS allows you to sideload, EU iOS still does not. macOS allows you to write programs for your own device without paying Apple $100 every year, EU iOS still does not. macOS provides an environment for general purpose computing, EU iOS still does not. Maybe not for long though: https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/commission-sends-preliminary-findings-apple-and-opens-additional-non-compliance-investigation-2024-06-24_en https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/commission-sends-pr...
  - m463 2y ago
    when you said "maybe not for long" I wondered if macos would be locked down...
  - jerkstate 2y ago
    You can turn developer mode on an iPhone and write programs on it for “free” as far as I can tell.
    - NotPractical 2y ago
      Those apps are deactivated after 7 days unless you pay for an Apple Developer subscription. There's the non-EU version of the AltStore which attempts to circumvent this restriction, but it's a dirty hack and I expect Apple to patch it out eventually.
      - extraduder_ire 2y ago
        It doesn't circumvent anything, it just re-signs the apps so they continue working.
alberth 2y ago
If Apple was a European company, I really wonder if EU would be putting all these restrictions on Apple.
- josu 2y ago
  Yeah, and that's arguably the reason why there is no European Apple, or Facebook, or Google, or Microsoft...
  - caseyy 2y ago
    Popular soundbite but not true. When the US was making leaps in technological and computing advancements around the 60s, one third of Europe was under the iron curtain and its economic stagnation. The other two thirds had just about finished rebuilding their infrastructure and amenities after World War 2. The Marshall Plan led to the establishment of very strong trade relationships between the US and Europe, and it was a time of economic boom in the US. The Cold War led to technological advancements in computing, communication, and aerospace, where the US government funded much tech the like ARPANET to stay ahead of the Soviets in all these fields. You take a stable business environment not disrupted by world wars, a government showering businesses with free hand-me-down technologies, and a huge economic boom fuelled by a whole continent of people suddenly looking to buy your products (some of which are computers), and you get Silicon Valley just a decade later. When Woz was tinkering on the first Apple computers with Jobs, their peers in East Germany were looking for ways to go around the Berlin Wall. The economic circumstances and business opportunities couldn't have been more different. Believe it or not, in the 1970s and 80s when Apple and Microsoft were born, Europe didn't have many of the consumer rights protections that it has today. It was largely focused on protecting its people from the USSR. In many European countries, consumer rights came into political focus only in the last 20 or so years. Today things are different. European Apple, Facebook, Google and Microsoft all exist and I believe are incorporated in Ireland. These companies do a large portion of their business in Europe. And if you consider today's tech, EU is very competitive with the US. In fintech, Revolut, Klarna and Adyen have similar user numbers as US alternatives. In AI, Google DeepMind is and has always been a UK company, and Graphcore makes NVIDIA's specialised AI chips. In the EV space, you may have heard of Volkswagen, Porsche, Land Rover, etc. In the business environment, SAP dominates ERP worldwide. And in games, you may have heard of Ubisoft, CD Projekt Red, Arkane, Playground Games, and many other European companies. The list goes on and on. The argument that Europe didn't form Silicon Valley post WW2 because of its current consumer protection laws is inane. Or that Europe doesn't have the same FANGMAN companies that operate in the US, or that it doesn't have strong tech competitors in the global space on the scale of FANGMAN. There were much larger forces at play than being able/not able to delete the App Store in the formation and development of tech hubs around the world.
thefounder 2y ago
Nice nice nice! Finally some freedom for the consumer.
mensetmanusman 2y ago
Is the purpose of this to help the EU build a tech giant? Protect consumers?
- nw05678 2y ago
  EU is seen as anti-competitive, but the reality is that it's Pro-Consumer... ...maybe too pro-consumer. Also the lack of a Google or Facebook etc is more of a result of it being harder to gain a critical mass of users. A social media company started in Poland would struggle to deal with the cultural and language differences with Holland. A more homogenous society such as the US doesn't have that issue.
solarkraft 2y ago
This is a good thing! But it’s also a token gesture. Wake me up when I can ACTUALLY sideload apps and it’s possible to use a synchronization service other than iCloud.
cassianoleal 2y ago
What is required to unlock all these EU goodies on iOS? An iCloud account on an EU country? What happens if I have accounts in other countries and switch between them?
- josephcsible 2y ago
  They track the physical location of your phone and revoke your access to them if you're ever out of the EU for a month. https://9to5mac.com/2023/04/25/ios-16-restrict-features-based-on-location/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/04/25/ios-16-restrict-features-base... https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/7/24093437/apple-iphone-third-party-app-store-dma-eu https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/7/24093437/apple-iphone-thir...
  - cassianoleal 2y ago
    Huh, interesting. Thanks for the links! What if I'm an EU resident whose bank or workplace security software are sideloaded or distributed by an alt store? What if I'm traveling for longer than a month? What if, to keep banking or working, I need an updated version of said apps? F me for being away for longer than an arbitrary amount of time that Apple thinks characterises ... what?
andy_ppp 2y ago
If I buy a phone in the EU can I keep this ability everywhere even with a UK Apple ID? Seems pretty nice having everything separate like this. I hope it forces them to allow different browser engines than Safari too.
- space_oddity 2y ago
  Theoretically this ability should remain active regardless of using a UK Apple ID, as it's tied to the device's region
  - yurishimo 2y ago
    After staying in one region consistently, all the big tech companies will automatically switch your region for you. Some might take longer to force you than others, but it’s not certain that you can forever stay on another region. But what makes most people have to switch eventually is a bank/government app that is region locked and you need it to live your life without pulling your hair out jumping through stupid hoops. A VPN and two devices is the only way to stay truly separate from the region you live in full time over the long term.
    - kergonath 2y ago
      > After staying in one region consistently, all the big tech companies will automatically switch your region for you. I have been using an iPhone with a British Apple ID and the British App Store, and the UK regional settings on some devices despite not living there anymore for a couple of years now. I am fairly confident switching countries requires the user to do it consciously. [edit] for this feature specifically, they are more aggressive: https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/7/24093437/apple-iphone-third-party-app-store-dma-eu https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/7/24093437/apple-iphone-thir... I don’t think they change anything about your accounts or device settings themselves, though.
    - rahimnathwani 2y ago
      Both iOS and Google Play allow you to install apps from two different accounts (each in a different region) on the same device. So you can have a single iPhone with both US and UK banking apps. Same for Pixel.
voytec 2y ago
What about Health.app? It collects data, and likely sends it to Apple, without user's permission. The permission to allow Apple / the app to collect data actually only allows _the_user_ to see the data collected earlier. Get an iPhone, only after few months enable Health permissions and one will see all the data collected before one allowed data collection. Oh, and Apple absolutely knows which country the device is used in - they base sound level warning levels on specific country's laws.
- nabla9 2y ago
  No. Users can control what it collects and shares. Data stored in iCloud is not available to Apple. https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/health-app/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/health-app/
  - voytec 2y ago
    So Apple sucking the data from user's device to their cloud without permission is not data collection because Apple says it can't access iCloud data? Come on. It's a US-based corporation owning the keys to systems on both ends. They are obligated to release the data when requested. And they may be obligated to lie about it, also by law.
    - jkaplowitz 2y ago
      To the best of my knowledge, none of the US laws around things like the PRISM program, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, National Security Letters, etc have ever required companies to state affirmatively false things, and I suspect that any such law would be unconstitutional. All of those laws have only required companies to refrain from saying or disclosing things, which is very different. Exactly which law in the US might allow the government to require Apple to falsely state that they don't have access to certain data?
      - voytec 2y ago
        Prohibition of Certain Disclosure under 18 U.S.C. § 2709(c) AKA "gag order".
p5v 2y ago
Right, because every browser on iOS isn't obviously a Safari skin.
- flohofwoe 2y ago
  That's no longer a requirement since iOS 17.4 (also thanks to the EU, but also only for users in the EU): https://developer.apple.com/support/alternative-browser-engines/ https://developer.apple.com/support/alternative-browser-engi...
yunohn 2y ago
The problem is not that I can’t use alternative apps - it’s that they don’t have access to various important system level features. Some examples: Only Messages and Mail can provide OTPs, again only when using the system keyboard. When swiping the lock screen to the left, only the system Camera is allowed to appear. When using navigation, only Apple Maps is allowed to provide the navigation overlay on the lock screen and Apple Watch. After years, the default Mail app can be changed, but AFAICT that doesn’t do anything other than override mailto links. However, this functionality isn’t available for Calendar for example. Similarly, you can’t override natural language Siri incantations to use your preferred apps. Like “message X” always uses Messages or “remind me of X” can only use Reminders. And alarms and timers can only use the Clock app. I really want Apple to fix all of this, but I guess it’s easier to act like the “deletion” of system apps provides a level playing field. The real problem is that the default apps lack a lot of other features that only third parties provide - but Apple can’t be assed to improve them.
- crop_rotation 2y ago
  The thing is most normal users don't really want random apps to be able to provide OTPs. While it would be nice to have an API for every system functionality like reminders where every app is allowed to register as the reminder app, it would necessitate far more complexity and far slower pace of development on the reminder interfacing. This is where there is a big difference in what the ultra few power users want and what normal users want. Ultra power users want to be able to install an app file for a random app with app store like experience and with as less hurdles as possible, while normal users are very scared of receiving an apk file in whatsapp and installing it by mistake (there is a spectrum here and it's not binary).
  - yunohn 2y ago
    You don’t need to invent a “random apps” strawman. Apple already restricts which apps can be used as default mail/browser, just allow them access to the same APIs. Why not at least Gmail, Chrome, and gBoard? Millions of “non power users” use these apps over Apple’s offering.
  - 2y ago
alberth 2y ago
Genuine question ... Why doesn't the EU apply these same rules to video game consoles (Xbox/PlayStation)? They arguably have an even more restrictive environment than iOS.
- yunohn 2y ago
  Huh? They play video games; not provide your portal into the entire digital world and life that is unavoidable in the modern day.
  - pests 2y ago
    Same thing for some people.
    - yunohn 2y ago
      What do you mean? I’ve never heard of a bank force you to login with a PlayStation or Xbox, but they do often force you to use the iOS or android apps for various functionality.
- guestbest 2y ago
  Can the XBox or PlayStation let users access online banking and manage assets?
  - wccrawford 2y ago
    The PS5's browser is hidden (it'll pop up when clicking links in Youtube video descriptions, etc), but it seems that the XBox one is just there to be used. So, yes.
    - jasonlotito 2y ago
      Having a browser online does not mean you can do your banking. It just means you have a browser. It's also almost guaranteed to not be a browser supported by the banks. Not to mention the myriad of other things that mobile phones provide in the context of mobile phones. The answer is only "yes" if you ignore reality.
shaky-carrousel 2y ago
Wow, the comments section in that website is so full of rednecks I can smell it.
wiether 2y ago
The difference in the comment section between the source and here is quite impressive. I can't understand why people feel the need to throw so much hate in reaction to this kind of announcement. There isn't even the beginning of a reflection, just pure hate. It's sad, really.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- andrewmcwatters 2y ago
  It’s really odd to me, too, seeing as that Apple products don’t scream overt conservatism, but clearly their product practices do.
  - Fidelix 2y ago
    I don't think that word "conservatism" mean what you think
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
  I tend to assume they either work for Apple, are in a business making obscene money with similar lock-in, or have learned the toxic behavior from those who are. It does seem unnatural.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- latexr 2y ago
  It’s not just comment sections. Pundits with large following can be very much the same. John Gruber, of Daring Fireball, is viciously anti-EU to the point he’s gone full looney. A handful of days after Threads launched he called it “the most fun app of the year” or some nonsense, and made fun of people in the EU (this as DMA-related). A few weeks ago I saw him compare the EU to Trump, only because some EU document had bolded words in a way he felt was haphazard. Every time I’m faced with one his posts, the replies are now full of the “old man yells at cloud” image.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
rnts08 2y ago
Great first step, now if we could just get apple hardware without apple software and get full access to the subsystems with a linux or android instead of the iOS/OSx slop, even I would consider paying for it.
trenchgun 2y ago
Wohoo! EU is the land of freedom! Suck it, USA

Why gate such a basic functionality for users in the European Union? People elsewhere do not have access to alternative app stores anyway. Is allowing them to uninstall such apps too much?

stavros 2y ago
Because it doesn't benefit Apple to allow you to uninstall these apps.
- thimabi 2y ago
  I mean, on their own, many of the core apps probably don’t bring much revenue to Apple. I can understand their reluctance to allow uninstalling the App Store, but what do they gain by preventing someone from uninstalling the Camera, for instance? Those who want to do so will use an alternative app anyway.
  - _rs 2y ago
    Because you'll have users who do it by accident and lose basic hardware functionality of their device without knowing how to fix it
    - ronsor 2y ago
      I don't know why this is downvoted. There are definitely a ton of users who will accidentally delete the camera and then complain their phone is broken, wasting everyone's time.
      - kergonath 2y ago
        People have already apps they can delete. And when they do it by mistake, they just go to the App Store to download it again, wasting nobody’s time. Why would it be any different? There’s just need to be a button in the settings if the App Store itself is deleted.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - spacebanana7 2y ago
    Safari generates billions of dollars in revenue for Apple through the default search engine deal with Google.
    - thimabi 2y ago
      You’re right, I forgot about that.
    - latexr 2y ago
      Google lost an antitrust case specifically because of that, so doesn’t look like that’s a deal that can continue. https://www.ghacks.net/2024/08/07/u-s-judge-rules-that-google-has-an-illegal-search-engine-monopoly/ https://www.ghacks.net/2024/08/07/u-s-judge-rules-that-googl...
  - LordKeren 2y ago
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yapyap 2y ago
cause they dont need to, if Apple isn’t forced to give up their deathgrip on the user they won’t.
afavour 2y ago
Apple aren’t doing this out of the goodness of their own hearts, they’re being forced to by the EU. So unless their hand is being forced elsewhere they’re not going to do it.
- xp84 2y ago
  Yup. You can bet most developed countries will start to follow suit now. Remember Apple's argument before they exhausted their appeals with the EU was that they could never do any of this, and the sky would fall, and their whole business would be destroyed. Now, that will have been proven to be absolute poppycock as they begin to abide by all these regulations in this one (large) region. I expect regulators in Japan, UK, Australia, etc. will start to say "Yeah, we want that too." And Apple has zero plausible argument left for why consumers everywhere else don't deserve or can't have the same level of choice. Obviously not in America though, since we don't have a functioning government, just an executive branch that doesn't have the support of Congress, and a judicial branch that believes strongly that only an act of Congress could create the authority needed to actually rein them in. And a Congress which would ideally like to avoid doing any legislating besides passing a continuing resolution or debt ceiling bill every now and then, since there's too much fundraising work to do.
- latexr 2y ago
  I think GP’s point is that in this case gating the feature is extra work with zero benefit for Apple², so why not just do it anyway³? ¹ At the very least more code and cases and testing where it could go wrong. ² Maybe reduced support calls? ³ Spite could be a reason.
  - afavour 2y ago
    Zero benefit? They get to keep a captive audience using the App Store. What's not to like?
    - latexr 2y ago
      That makes no sense. If you’re the type of person who’d want to delete the App Store app despite not having access to alternatives, you’re not someone who’d ever want it or use it or buy from it.
al_borland 2y ago
I’m sure a non-trivial number of users would delete apps that are required for basic functionality. Stopping them prevents support issues that could require resetting to factory settings, if they didn’t add some other way to get the App Store back.
- prmoustache 2y ago
  It is mentionned in the article that the apps that can be uninstall have a quick reinstall option in the settings.
  - SirMaster 2y ago
    Sounds anti-competitive to have special install options for your own apps right in the settings menu of the device... /s
- Teever 2y ago
  Is that really sufficient justification for stopping users from having more control over their device? Like should we really let the 'Grandma Finds the Internet'[0] meme be the reason that you and I can't make decisions for ourselves? Whatever cost savings that Apple has from avoiding support for these people is dwarfed by the money they make from stopping competitors to these apps from growing due to these control mechanisms. That's the real reason apple doesn't want to do this and has to be kicked dragging and screaming by the EU. [0] https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/Grandma-Finds-The-Internet https://imgflip.com/memegenerator/Grandma-Finds-The-Internet
  - gjsman-1000 2y ago
    > Is that really sufficient justification for stopping users from having more control over their device? People who want more control over their devices; have Android. Not all solutions need fit all desires.
    - Teever 2y ago
      That isn't enough. The public interest is served by the end users having more control over their devices than Android and Apple currently offer.
betaby 2y ago
Folks in USA/CA would remove Safari and then return phone to the carrier/Apple as defective. No, I'm not kidding. I saw that multiple times - Windows messed on laptop? Laptop within return window? Return it is!
- rty32 2y ago
  Eh, people return their devices because don't know how to correctly use them all the time, I don't see how it is different here. And people definitely don't need to intentionally do this -- in the US, most major retailers allow you to return opened products within the return window (although it could get complicated with so-called "activatable devices")
  - wtallis 2y ago
    It's not even a matter of whether the user knows how to use their device. I've seen plenty of Windows laptops shipped with a somewhat-broken software configuration out of the box, and on multiple occasions I've seen two "identical" machines fresh out of the box get offered different software updates with the end result that a few hours and several reboots later, one system is noticeably misbehaving.
  - betaby 2y ago
    > I don't see how it is different here. iPhones are almost 'idiot proof' for a lack of a better description. Allowing removal ( or rather hiding ) of the apps will 'break' that impression. I'm surely in favour of making iPhones/IPads general computers, but that not going to happen. Those legislations from EU are no help.
    - downWidOutaFite 2y ago
      i must be an idiot. As an iphone user for about a year i'm constantly confused what's happening or stuck on some screen or can't find what i need or mysteriously trigger some screen or popup.
    - xp84 2y ago
a2128 2y ago
Releasing it as a feature everywhere would require at least a bit of public explanation and might give the appearance that EU forced Apple into doing something good for everyone. Being petty and releasing the bare minimum georestricted only to EU requires no public explanation and gives more the appearance that this is some dumb law Apple was forced to comply with. At least that's probably their thinking.
- mrweasel 2y ago
  That is probably a more likely explanation that "because it would lose them money". I suspect that the number of people who are actively going to switch to a different App Store is minimal. Users can already install other browsers, even if they are still using WebView, same of messaging apps and I doubt that many would care to replace the camera app. Photos maybe, but is that really a huge lose for Apple? That saves them from storing your photos. People on HN is often assuming that people would leave the App Store in droves, if given to option. I really don't see that happening.
dgellow 2y ago
The EU forced them. Apple has been fighting pretty hard to not have to do any of these changes, it seems they gave up
space_oddity 2y ago
And push Apple to improve their default apps

AshleysBrain 2y ago

Are the apps actually uninstalled for real, or does the system just hide them to create the same appearance as uninstalling to satisfy legal requirements?

amelius 2y ago
I suspect that Safari is still needed as a "webview" component for various services.
- wslh 2y ago
  It is the reverse... Safari uses the webview.
  - amelius 2y ago
    Maybe but that's just semantics.
    - saurik 2y ago
      Sort of? Like, the way it at least used to work, is that there was a MobileSafari.app that used the UIWebDocument class from UIKit.framework and which in turn used WebKit. I don't think anyone is expecting Apple to uninstall the UI widgets that are being used by numerous existing third-party applications, and yet it is still meaningful to be able to delete the Safari "app".
    - sleepybrett 2y ago
      It's not. None of the UI is present in webview. Webview is just the 'rendering pane'.
    - wslh 2y ago
      No, it is not. Just create an app in Xcode and see that you have a WebView component. Easy to check: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/webkit/webview https://developer.apple.com/documentation/webkit/webview
  - deleted 2y ago

galkk 2y ago

Nice. I hope that eventually they will force app stores to allow users to resell/inherit/gift digital goods such as apps. If I can sell something physical that I don't need anymore, I should be able to do so with the things I "bought" on, let's say, Steam.

spacebanana7 2y ago
To play devils advocate, couldn’t that allow a single purchase of a movie to be watched by millions of people? At which point no studio would sell it digitally. In theory this could’ve happened with DVDs, but it was too much hassle for a single disc to be shared by that many people. You could compromise with restrictions on how many times a file could be sold etc, but that concedes the point of a digital good not really being your property. And it might be used as a Trojan horse for even more DRM and surveillance.
- gjsman-1000 2y ago
  > To play devils advocate, couldn’t that allow a single purchase of a movie to be watched by millions of people? At which point no studio would sell it digitally. You're not thinking creatively enough. One day, somebody's going to use the law and make the "sales" API-driven. This will then turn it into a rental service where you can "buy" a game for two hours for $37.50 and then "sell" the game back to the mother ship for $36.50 of credit. The mother ship being, of course, whatever VC firm puts millions into having the world's largest Steam account. I don't have to like the current ecosystem of no-transfers and DRM, to acknowledge breaking all that down would have major economic consequences against studios. Right now is especially not the time to be asking for this, because the whole video game industry is in deep financial trouble at the moment.
  - protimewaster 2y ago
    Why is this worse than a company renting out physical copies, though? This is the way games rentals work for physical copies. The renter buys one copy and rents it out numerous times. (It's also the way libraries work for books, of course.)

ewuhic 2y ago

[flagged]

7thpower 2y ago

Please Siri next, please, please, please.

latexr 2y ago
You can disable Siri and there’s no app for it on the Home Screen. What exactly are you asking for?
- 7thpower 2y ago
  Optionality.
  - latexr 2y ago
    What’s not optional about being able to disable it entirely?
    - 7thpower 2y ago
      Not being able to replace it with an alternative that is a first class citizen.

nikeee 2y ago

What will happen if I uninstall Messages and someone sends me a text message?

non-nil 2y ago
And where will photos be saved? In a folder in the Files app? The horror! The Photos app has been so deeply integrated into the OS it’s almost difficult to imagine it not being there. Not that I would mind, I recently switched to Android so I can rsync my .dng files around, thankyouverymuch.
g-b-r 2y ago
Has someone ever sent you a message while your phone was off?
flohofwoe 2y ago
Probably not much because everybody uses WhatsApp anyway ;) (in Europe that is)
SirMaster 2y ago
Same thing that happens when someone sends you a message on any messaging platform when you don't have the app to view the message. It just sits unviewed by you.

LeicaLatte 2y ago

EU iOS is the closest thing to a OS X like experience on iPhones. Wish these features came to more regions.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
NotPractical 2y ago
No, it's not close at all. macOS allows you to sideload, EU iOS still does not. macOS allows you to write programs for your own device without paying Apple $100 every year, EU iOS still does not. macOS provides an environment for general purpose computing, EU iOS still does not. Maybe not for long though: https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/commission-sends-preliminary-findings-apple-and-opens-additional-non-compliance-investigation-2024-06-24_en https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/commission-sends-pr...
- m463 2y ago
  when you said "maybe not for long" I wondered if macos would be locked down...
- jerkstate 2y ago
  You can turn developer mode on an iPhone and write programs on it for “free” as far as I can tell.
  - NotPractical 2y ago
    Those apps are deactivated after 7 days unless you pay for an Apple Developer subscription. There's the non-EU version of the AltStore which attempts to circumvent this restriction, but it's a dirty hack and I expect Apple to patch it out eventually.
    - extraduder_ire 2y ago
      It doesn't circumvent anything, it just re-signs the apps so they continue working.

alberth 2y ago

If Apple was a European company, I really wonder if EU would be putting all these restrictions on Apple.

josu 2y ago
Yeah, and that's arguably the reason why there is no European Apple, or Facebook, or Google, or Microsoft...
- caseyy 2y ago
  Popular soundbite but not true. When the US was making leaps in technological and computing advancements around the 60s, one third of Europe was under the iron curtain and its economic stagnation. The other two thirds had just about finished rebuilding their infrastructure and amenities after World War 2. The Marshall Plan led to the establishment of very strong trade relationships between the US and Europe, and it was a time of economic boom in the US. The Cold War led to technological advancements in computing, communication, and aerospace, where the US government funded much tech the like ARPANET to stay ahead of the Soviets in all these fields. You take a stable business environment not disrupted by world wars, a government showering businesses with free hand-me-down technologies, and a huge economic boom fuelled by a whole continent of people suddenly looking to buy your products (some of which are computers), and you get Silicon Valley just a decade later. When Woz was tinkering on the first Apple computers with Jobs, their peers in East Germany were looking for ways to go around the Berlin Wall. The economic circumstances and business opportunities couldn't have been more different. Believe it or not, in the 1970s and 80s when Apple and Microsoft were born, Europe didn't have many of the consumer rights protections that it has today. It was largely focused on protecting its people from the USSR. In many European countries, consumer rights came into political focus only in the last 20 or so years. Today things are different. European Apple, Facebook, Google and Microsoft all exist and I believe are incorporated in Ireland. These companies do a large portion of their business in Europe. And if you consider today's tech, EU is very competitive with the US. In fintech, Revolut, Klarna and Adyen have similar user numbers as US alternatives. In AI, Google DeepMind is and has always been a UK company, and Graphcore makes NVIDIA's specialised AI chips. In the EV space, you may have heard of Volkswagen, Porsche, Land Rover, etc. In the business environment, SAP dominates ERP worldwide. And in games, you may have heard of Ubisoft, CD Projekt Red, Arkane, Playground Games, and many other European companies. The list goes on and on. The argument that Europe didn't form Silicon Valley post WW2 because of its current consumer protection laws is inane. Or that Europe doesn't have the same FANGMAN companies that operate in the US, or that it doesn't have strong tech competitors in the global space on the scale of FANGMAN. There were much larger forces at play than being able/not able to delete the App Store in the formation and development of tech hubs around the world.

thefounder 2y ago

Nice nice nice! Finally some freedom for the consumer.

mensetmanusman 2y ago

Is the purpose of this to help the EU build a tech giant? Protect consumers?

nw05678 2y ago
EU is seen as anti-competitive, but the reality is that it's Pro-Consumer... ...maybe too pro-consumer. Also the lack of a Google or Facebook etc is more of a result of it being harder to gain a critical mass of users. A social media company started in Poland would struggle to deal with the cultural and language differences with Holland. A more homogenous society such as the US doesn't have that issue.

solarkraft 2y ago

This is a good thing! But it’s also a token gesture. Wake me up when I can ACTUALLY sideload apps and it’s possible to use a synchronization service other than iCloud.

cassianoleal 2y ago

What is required to unlock all these EU goodies on iOS? An iCloud account on an EU country? What happens if I have accounts in other countries and switch between them?

josephcsible 2y ago
They track the physical location of your phone and revoke your access to them if you're ever out of the EU for a month. https://9to5mac.com/2023/04/25/ios-16-restrict-features-based-on-location/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/04/25/ios-16-restrict-features-base... https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/7/24093437/apple-iphone-third-party-app-store-dma-eu https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/7/24093437/apple-iphone-thir...
- cassianoleal 2y ago
  Huh, interesting. Thanks for the links! What if I'm an EU resident whose bank or workplace security software are sideloaded or distributed by an alt store? What if I'm traveling for longer than a month? What if, to keep banking or working, I need an updated version of said apps? F me for being away for longer than an arbitrary amount of time that Apple thinks characterises ... what?

andy_ppp 2y ago

If I buy a phone in the EU can I keep this ability everywhere even with a UK Apple ID? Seems pretty nice having everything separate like this. I hope it forces them to allow different browser engines than Safari too.

space_oddity 2y ago
Theoretically this ability should remain active regardless of using a UK Apple ID, as it's tied to the device's region
- yurishimo 2y ago
  After staying in one region consistently, all the big tech companies will automatically switch your region for you. Some might take longer to force you than others, but it’s not certain that you can forever stay on another region. But what makes most people have to switch eventually is a bank/government app that is region locked and you need it to live your life without pulling your hair out jumping through stupid hoops. A VPN and two devices is the only way to stay truly separate from the region you live in full time over the long term.
  - kergonath 2y ago
    > After staying in one region consistently, all the big tech companies will automatically switch your region for you. I have been using an iPhone with a British Apple ID and the British App Store, and the UK regional settings on some devices despite not living there anymore for a couple of years now. I am fairly confident switching countries requires the user to do it consciously. [edit] for this feature specifically, they are more aggressive: https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/7/24093437/apple-iphone-third-party-app-store-dma-eu https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/7/24093437/apple-iphone-thir... I don’t think they change anything about your accounts or device settings themselves, though.
  - rahimnathwani 2y ago
    Both iOS and Google Play allow you to install apps from two different accounts (each in a different region) on the same device. So you can have a single iPhone with both US and UK banking apps. Same for Pixel.

voytec 2y ago

What about Health.app? It collects data, and likely sends it to Apple, without user's permission. The permission to allow Apple / the app to collect data actually only allows _the_user_ to see the data collected earlier. Get an iPhone, only after few months enable Health permissions and one will see all the data collected before one allowed data collection. Oh, and Apple absolutely knows which country the device is used in - they base sound level warning levels on specific country's laws.

nabla9 2y ago
No. Users can control what it collects and shares. Data stored in iCloud is not available to Apple. https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/health-app/ https://www.apple.com/legal/privacy/data/en/health-app/
- voytec 2y ago
  So Apple sucking the data from user's device to their cloud without permission is not data collection because Apple says it can't access iCloud data? Come on. It's a US-based corporation owning the keys to systems on both ends. They are obligated to release the data when requested. And they may be obligated to lie about it, also by law.
  - jkaplowitz 2y ago
    To the best of my knowledge, none of the US laws around things like the PRISM program, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, National Security Letters, etc have ever required companies to state affirmatively false things, and I suspect that any such law would be unconstitutional. All of those laws have only required companies to refrain from saying or disclosing things, which is very different. Exactly which law in the US might allow the government to require Apple to falsely state that they don't have access to certain data?
    - voytec 2y ago
      Prohibition of Certain Disclosure under 18 U.S.C. § 2709(c) AKA "gag order".

p5v 2y ago

Right, because every browser on iOS isn't obviously a Safari skin.

flohofwoe 2y ago
That's no longer a requirement since iOS 17.4 (also thanks to the EU, but also only for users in the EU): https://developer.apple.com/support/alternative-browser-engines/ https://developer.apple.com/support/alternative-browser-engi...

yunohn 2y ago

The problem is not that I can’t use alternative apps - it’s that they don’t have access to various important system level features. Some examples: Only Messages and Mail can provide OTPs, again only when using the system keyboard. When swiping the lock screen to the left, only the system Camera is allowed to appear. When using navigation, only Apple Maps is allowed to provide the navigation overlay on the lock screen and Apple Watch. After years, the default Mail app can be changed, but AFAICT that doesn’t do anything other than override mailto links. However, this functionality isn’t available for Calendar for example. Similarly, you can’t override natural language Siri incantations to use your preferred apps. Like “message X” always uses Messages or “remind me of X” can only use Reminders. And alarms and timers can only use the Clock app. I really want Apple to fix all of this, but I guess it’s easier to act like the “deletion” of system apps provides a level playing field. The real problem is that the default apps lack a lot of other features that only third parties provide - but Apple can’t be assed to improve them.

crop_rotation 2y ago
The thing is most normal users don't really want random apps to be able to provide OTPs. While it would be nice to have an API for every system functionality like reminders where every app is allowed to register as the reminder app, it would necessitate far more complexity and far slower pace of development on the reminder interfacing. This is where there is a big difference in what the ultra few power users want and what normal users want. Ultra power users want to be able to install an app file for a random app with app store like experience and with as less hurdles as possible, while normal users are very scared of receiving an apk file in whatsapp and installing it by mistake (there is a spectrum here and it's not binary).
- yunohn 2y ago
  You don’t need to invent a “random apps” strawman. Apple already restricts which apps can be used as default mail/browser, just allow them access to the same APIs. Why not at least Gmail, Chrome, and gBoard? Millions of “non power users” use these apps over Apple’s offering.
- 2y ago

alberth 2y ago

Genuine question ... Why doesn't the EU apply these same rules to video game consoles (Xbox/PlayStation)? They arguably have an even more restrictive environment than iOS.

yunohn 2y ago
Huh? They play video games; not provide your portal into the entire digital world and life that is unavoidable in the modern day.
- pests 2y ago
  Same thing for some people.
  - yunohn 2y ago
    What do you mean? I’ve never heard of a bank force you to login with a PlayStation or Xbox, but they do often force you to use the iOS or android apps for various functionality.
guestbest 2y ago
Can the XBox or PlayStation let users access online banking and manage assets?
- wccrawford 2y ago
  The PS5's browser is hidden (it'll pop up when clicking links in Youtube video descriptions, etc), but it seems that the XBox one is just there to be used. So, yes.
  - jasonlotito 2y ago
    Having a browser online does not mean you can do your banking. It just means you have a browser. It's also almost guaranteed to not be a browser supported by the banks. Not to mention the myriad of other things that mobile phones provide in the context of mobile phones. The answer is only "yes" if you ignore reality.

shaky-carrousel 2y ago

Wow, the comments section in that website is so full of rednecks I can smell it.

wiether 2y ago

The difference in the comment section between the source and here is quite impressive. I can't understand why people feel the need to throw so much hate in reaction to this kind of announcement. There isn't even the beginning of a reflection, just pure hate. It's sad, really.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
andrewmcwatters 2y ago
It’s really odd to me, too, seeing as that Apple products don’t scream overt conservatism, but clearly their product practices do.
- Fidelix 2y ago
  I don't think that word "conservatism" mean what you think
2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
I tend to assume they either work for Apple, are in a business making obscene money with similar lock-in, or have learned the toxic behavior from those who are. It does seem unnatural.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
latexr 2y ago
It’s not just comment sections. Pundits with large following can be very much the same. John Gruber, of Daring Fireball, is viciously anti-EU to the point he’s gone full looney. A handful of days after Threads launched he called it “the most fun app of the year” or some nonsense, and made fun of people in the EU (this as DMA-related). A few weeks ago I saw him compare the EU to Trump, only because some EU document had bolded words in a way he felt was haphazard. Every time I’m faced with one his posts, the replies are now full of the “old man yells at cloud” image.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

rnts08 2y ago

Great first step, now if we could just get apple hardware without apple software and get full access to the subsystems with a linux or android instead of the iOS/OSx slop, even I would consider paying for it.

trenchgun 2y ago

Wohoo! EU is the land of freedom! Suck it, USA