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Linus Torvalds comments on the Russian Linux maintainers being delisted
- itvision 2y agoJust to make things clear, Phoronix said they are being "delisted". No, they have actually been banished, because if you're not a maintainer of some Linux kernel subsystem, Linus Torvalds stops accepting merge requests from you. You need to go through an actual maintainer first.
- halJordan 2y agoMuch ado about nothing. There's a list of maintainers. Being delisted means you're not on the list. If you're not a maintainer you cant maintain the kernel. D'oh. You should not be demanding charged language just because it elicits an emotional reaction.
- dang 2y agoIt's ok to make your point about it in the comments but please don't alter titles to do that. This is in the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. (I've reverted the title now.)
- gg-plz 2y ago[dead]
- ChrisArchitect 2y agoRelated: Several Russian developers lose kernel maintainership status https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41919670 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41919670
- Bostonian 2y agoIs this being done as a sanction against Russia or because it is feared that the Russian government would get some rogue developers to submit code to the kernel that enables attacks? Individual Russian programmers are not responsible for the invasion of Ukraine, so I would be reluctant to punish them for Putin's crime and to deprive Linux of their contributions.
- talldayo 2y ago> I would be reluctant to punish them for Putin's crime and to deprive Linux of their contributions. They can still contribute to Linux - being removed as a maintainer doesn't mean you can't fork Linux. If they have downstream changes they want to contribute to everyone upstream, there is nothing here preventing them from doing it the same way everyone else does.
- shmel 2y agoAs if a normal person would bother lol. If I was discriminated this way just because of my country of birth, I'd stop engaging with such an organization at all.
- gtirloni 2y agoMost people working on the Linux kernel are being paid by their employers to do so. This creates roadblocks for those companies. The days of the kernel being developed by a majority of idealistic developers is long gone.
- g-b-r 2y agoIt's because of their government, not of their country of birth
- ysjet 2y agoSpecifically, the removed individuals work for Russian organizations that are sanctioned. So this isn't really about individual Russian programmers at all.
- biblbroxxx 2y agoI was trying to find the reason of their removal in the email conversation, but I couldn't have done it. The only statement was provided was something like "the reasons are clear". But it's not clear whether they were removed because of their association with sanctioned companies or just because of their country.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago> If you haven't heard of Russian sanctions yet, you should try to read the news some day. And by "news", I don't mean Russian state-sponsored spam. > As to sending me a revert patch - please use whatever mush you call brains. I'm Finnish. Did you think I'd be supporting Russian aggression? Apparently it's not just lack of real news, it's lack of history knowledge too.
- quickthrowman 2y agoHe has a point about history. Russia is the reason that Finland still has compulsory military service. Finland is also the only European country bordering Russia (excluding Norway and its small border w Russia) to escape being a Soviet Socialist Republic after WW II. Sure, they allied with Nazi Germany to accomplish that, but they joined the allies against Germany eventually.
- fromrussiawlove 2y ago[flagged]
- dzeimis 2y ago> Kaliningrad Oblast How is it relevant here?
- bonzini 2y agoI guess in the sense that Poland also borders Russia via Kaliningrad, and wasn't part of the USSR.
- sampo 2y agoThe Soviet Army occupied Poland in 1939, got pushed back by German attacks, re-entered and occupied Poland in 1944, and then Soviet Army kept presence in Poland until 1993. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Group_of_Forces https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Group_of_Forces
- v1ne 2y agoThe article is a snapshot of the discussion that's still happening on the mailing list. Linus later responded with: >No, but I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not going to go into the details that I - and other maintainers - were told by lawyers. >I'm also not going to start discussing legal issues with random internet people who I seriously suspect are paid actors and/or have been riled up by them.
- llm_trw 2y ago>I'm also not going to start discussing legal issues with random internet people who I seriously suspect are paid actors and/or have been riled up by them. Oh boy, everyone who disagrees with me works for the Kremlin.
- ruthmarx 2y agoI mean, it's likely not just deflection/paranoia in his case.
- llm_trw 2y ago[flagged]
- ruthmarx 2y agoHow did you extrapolate 'everyone' from my sentence saying 'for his'?
- llm_trw 2y agoBecause you're replying to my post where I said everyone?
- ruthmarx 2y agoNot a great answer since I was saying your claim specifically didn't apply to him, i.e. one person. Look at the logic of this conversation, a paraphrased version of the actual one we had: --- Submission: Jack the firefighter says x You: All people who say x must be crazy or being paid Me: In this case Jack's claims likely have merit You: So anyone that says x is paid? Where's my check? --- You see how that doesn't track, right?
- leoh 2y agohttps://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/6e90b675cf942e50c70e8394dfb5862975c3b3b2 https://github.com/torvalds/linux/commit/6e90b675cf942e50c70...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- nairboon 2y agoRelated: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41917357 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41917357
- thumbsup-_- 2y agoJust swallow a chill pill and move on. I hate to say it but writing a blog is not going to help much.
- tanglewire 2y agoThat's the Spirit!
- vdrkhlm 2y agoReposting from a duplicate discussion. Communicating clearly that you cannot currently accept contributions from people potentially associated with problematic businesses is an understandable decision. Tone of voice stated following the removal of a list of names of people you used to work with not too long makes this sound like a petty statement if anything.
- anthk 2y ago[flagged]
- consumer451 2y agoSay that is true, then to be consistent, why is the MSS (CN) and GRU (RU) not included? Are those countries not also trying to project power, and compromise every system possible?
- anthk 2y agoCIA will just tamper either hardware and/or core distros like Debian. They shouldn't need to do anymore because that could backfire like crazy against the US economies in case of a a zero day. On Russia and China, these are second-tier risks levels, easier to avoid.
- consumer451 2y ago> On Russia and China, these are second-tier risks levels, easier to avoid. This appears to be what may have just occurred in regard to TFA. edit: it seems to be a reaction to the sanctions for the invasion of Ukraine. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41932912 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41932912
- gn4d 2y ago[flagged]
- TiredOfLife 2y ago
- galkk 2y agoAhh, old one "anyone who disagrees with me is a Russian state sponsored troll". If he had just written - compliance, we cannot work with sanctioned entities, that would be fine and understandable.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- oneshtein 2y agoRussia spends hundreds of millions on propaganda (paid trolls), sabotage, and espionage. There is lot of cases for Article 4 of NATO already. It's better to say sorry than to risk millions of lives.
- okeuro49 2y agoThis could have still been explained just by providing the legal requirements that led to the decision.
- sivakon 2y agoUS spends billions on paid propaganda. https://responsiblestatecraft.org/china-cold-war-2669160202/ https://responsiblestatecraft.org/china-cold-war-2669160202/
- api 2y agoSo… they both do it?
- OKRainbowKid 2y agoCool, this post and discussion is about Russia though.
- FuckXenophobia 2y ago[flagged]
- 2y ago
- est 2y agoso it's just these accounts can not contribute to Linux kernel, or their contributions were removed?
- gus_massa 2y agoRemoving all the old contributions is probably impossible. IIUC in case they want to contribute, they must send the patch to the new maintainer of that part of Linux, instead of sending it directly to Linus.
- est 2y agoomg it's a hot buzz in non-tech circles. People thought Russians are no longer be able to participate or using Linux.
- gus_massa 2y agoparticipate: It's still not 100% clear, but I guess they still can send patchs (or fork the project). using: It's GPL2. Everyone can use it, nobody can add restrictions. (Some people think this is a feature and some that it's a bug.)
- vbezhenar 2y ago[flagged]
- JoeyBananas 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- consumer451 2y ago> So Linus exposed his Russophoby Is it irrational to not accept the work of individuals who work for sanctioned orgs, in a country which claims to have no borders, and threatens to attack the West with nuclear weapons every couple months? > Sometimes you need a hit in the head to understand the reality. Please expand on exactly what you mean by this.
- anthk 2y agoYet you have no issues doing business with Saudi Arabia where they had ties with international Islamic terrorism... Or China, Venezuela (both left and right parties, at least from Spain)... End the stage performance, please. We all know it's all about money and power.
- consumer451 2y agoYou have made a lot of assumptions my friend. I personally have issues with all authoritarian countries, including the ones you mentioned. > End the stage performance, please. We all know it's all about money and power. You are ridiculously incorrect. For me, it is about freedom, democracy, and the right to continue breathing. I currently live a few hundred km from the war in Europe. Russian state media threatens to invade my country of residence every month or so. Every time I go to the grocery store, I see Ukrainian refugee mothers and their children trying to survive. It is real here, not some theoretical far-away thing that my edgelord friends and I get to pontificate about online.
- ammo1662 2y ago[flagged]
- oefrha 2y agoHuh, that one time CoC might be useful, and he decides to bring national gripe in and call everyone who disagrees with him a troll.
- michaelmrose 2y agoThe lawyers brought the issue. He explained the issue ably to the public at large. I'm not in favor of fake niceness.
- oefrha 2y agoSure, you’re paid trolls and I’m Finnish so Russians can fuck off in the first place is “explaining the issue ably to the public”. However, this is less deranged than many of his frankly embarrassing public rants on other people’s code he didn’t like, I’ll give him that. Maybe that “ably” is relative.
- hansfbaier 2y ago[flagged]
- ysjet 2y agoSure, just as soon as the EU sanctions the US or Israel. Reread what he said- legal reasons (sanctions) caused a number of people to be removed from the MAINTAINERS list because they work for Russian companies that fall under sanctions. Someone realized (or was reminded) of the sanctions, and they did their due diligence to remove them as required by Finnish and/or EU law. This doesn't mean they can't submit code- just that they have to go through other maintainers and have their code audited, just like basically everyone else. It doesn't mean their code is removed, or that attribution is removed. It just means they can no longer act as maintainers. As for Torvald's comment about aggression? Someone was asking him to break sanctions and restore these people to MAINTAINERS, and his response was basically "Why would I stick my neck out to try to take a stand against sanctions for a country whose policies and politics are abhorrent to myself and my country?" As for why Linus doesn't want to engage? Why should he engage with new accounts coming out of the woodwork that aren't contributors, maintainers, or involved in Linux at all? He has better things to do, like work on Linux, especially since he just lost a large number of maintainers that reduce the load on him.
- krick 2y agoNo sooner than he moves to Russia, I suppose. So while I am surprised, because I did have a higher opinion of him too, these are pointless questions. Pointing fingers won't help for sure.
- SemyonDanilov 2y ago[dead]
- shehjar 2y ago[flagged]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- songkeys 2y agoOpen source communities are similar to communism in that they are practices of an ideal state (Utopia; Republic). It takes a philosopher king to rule behind the good. But it is hard to have a ruler with the qualities of a philosopher king. There is a term for open source software: BDFL (benevolent dictator for life). At Wikepedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator_for_life https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictator_for_life ), Linus is included. But the virtue of being benevolent is too difficult to ensure and maintain.
- Propelloni 2y agoThat's a wrong conflation. Some successful open source communities and projects are set up with a BDFL, but not all or even many (see your own link). In fact, they are rather special, which is why they garner so much attention .
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y agoIf open source were communist/socialist then Linus wouldn't own the kernel
- anime_snail 2y ago[flagged]
- 0dayz 2y agoGood that you are complying with the sanctions?
- anthk 2y agoLinux-Libre will still be open to your contribs unlike these phony nonfree kernels called Linux.
- Citizen_Lame 2y agoWe are all very sad.
- ttarr 2y agoWhat's BSD's stance on such or similar situations? I'm looking for an OS, Linux is not just a kernel anymore it seems, for this and other reasons, hint, Linux Foundation and their cooperate lords.
- gn4d 2y agoPeople are going to troll you for saying that, but there's a lot of people who silently agree. Anyway, good on you, same here.
- raverbashing 2y agoGreg puts in the article the way it is And if anyone thinks a Finn of all people would buy any BS or sad tears from their "annoying" neighbour (to put it mildly) you need to read up on some history Of course in the end it sucks for a lot of people that has nothing to do with it.
- paganel 2y ago[flagged]
- raverbashing 2y ago> because there used to be Finnish people who believed in the Soviets Yes those are called useful idiots
- ogurechny 2y ago[flagged]
- BSDobelix 2y agoExcellent point, Pro Useful Idiot: Most people in my country want this war Con Useful Idiot: This person (foreign assassin or whatever) wanted to kill {insert politician}, shows that we need this war and eradicate the enemy. There is a book, but I forgot the title, it's about White/Grey/Black Propaganda, it's quite old, but it's considered the basic book for propaganda in new media (at that time flyers/radio/newspapers).
- consumer451 2y agoThe Finnish people today, have the highest percentage of people willing to fight to defend their country in the EU, it is reported to be 74%. I think it is safe to assume that they are not worried about their Scandinavian neighbors invading.
- paganel 2y ago
- paganel 2y ago[flagged]
- paulcarroty 2y ago[flagged]
- ogurechny 2y agoYou're saying that everyone who has e-mail ending in “@yahoo.com” works at Yahoo. The rest of the post shows the same level of understanding of the world us. Obviously you haven't thought that blocking participants for reasons you've mentioned should start with Linus Torvalds, currently a US citizen. Maybe later he can present some papers or something to guarantee that he's not involved...
- ffsm8 2y agoNo, neither the person you're responding to nor Linus torwald said or implied that. the reason for the removal was not that they had an email address on a public and free email provider that coincidentally had a Russian tld.
- amon-shi 2y ago[flagged]
- surfer2 2y ago[dead]
- coherence73 2y agoPart of this is not about how politics affects open source world. It's about lack of open discussion and transparency. Certainly it'd be wrong for linus to call the opponents "trolls" from Russia.
- dragonwriter 2y agoI mean, no, it wouldn't, if the opponentns are largely, in fact, trolls and paid actors backed, directly or indirectly, by the Russian state.
- sundarurfriend 2y agoIf this was purely because of sanctions, this could have been handled much more gracefully. But it's clear from Linus' comments that he just doesn't respect these volunteers because they happen to be from a particular country. > I'm Finnish. ... Apparently it's not just lack of real news, it's lack of history knowledge too. If we're suddenly taking history as a criterion, half of the world should ban British developers from touching their projects in any way, for their repeated aggressions and ruinous colonialism. This sort of behaviour is slowly building a soft Great Firewall around the West, and making it seem like China had the right idea all along.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- michaelmrose 2y agoRussia is unique in that they are both presently and historically a threat to the entire western world.
- est 2y ago> threat to the entire western world .... and China.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- Ardum 2y ago[dead]
- tim333 2y agoNot so much a threat as actively attacking.
- smallstepforman 2y ago[flagged]
- locallost 2y ago[flagged]
- gn4d 2y agoGood post.
- BSDobelix 2y agoDuring the BRICS meeting...well done Linus, this is a good way to strengthen a multipolar world.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- otingokni 2y ago[flagged]
- akurilov 2y ago[flagged]
- gn4d 2y ago[flagged]
- mipsi 2y agoNearly 1 million Russians left Russia because they didn't want to end as ghouls in an imperial war, that's demonizing AND killing people because of their home nation.
- uuk020 2y ago[flagged]
- emsadditional 2y ago[dead]
- lintkw 2y ago[dead]
- Jomamadidit 2y ago[flagged]
- octacat 2y agoLinux and Wordpress are competing in the "well-managed" open source community of the year reward. Before there were BCacheFS and "Rust for Linux" controversies this year.
- forux 2y agoMany people must realise that we are close to the ww3 and that russians really pay a lot to attack what ever is possible to attack. Linus just protect us all.
- rmrf100 2y agoLinus typically excels at focusing on 'issues' rather than 'individuals'. However, this time he has chosen to do the opposite.
- akurilov 2y agoKey takeovers: 1. Linux is occupied by USA 2. US praises public hatred against a nationality
- mdp2021 2y ago> against a nationality No, the targets are only contractors of specific firms.
- darthrupert 2y agoAm I right to assume that they're not delisting all Russian Linux maintainers, just the ones with some connections to Russian Government? If that is so, then this is comparable to booting people with nazi connections from western scientific projects in 1930s, i.e. perfectly fine and in fact the only reasonable thing to do. Again, this is not being done because these people are russian. Claiming ethnicity-based oppression where none exists is a known russotroll dogwhistle, and I think the commenters on this forum should be sophisticated enough to understand that.
- akurilov 2y ago1. Does being a russian means "some connections to Russian Government"? What is the specific criteria used in this case? 2. Does punishment by a nationality means USA is nazi itself? 3. What about that public hatred against a Russian nationality expressed by Torvalds? Is it OK to use a nazi hatred for decisions in USA?
- dragonwriter 2y ago> Does being a russian means "some connections to Russian Government"? What is the specific criteria used in this case? The specific criteria is legal advice received regarding sanctions regimes. > Does punishment by a nationality means USA is nazi itself? No, because (1) nationality alone isn't the basis of the action, (2) Linus has specifically noted that the compliance issues were not solely US law, (3) treated people differently based on their nation of nationality and residence (not your own citizens by national ancestry) is not, even approximately, sufficient to be described as “nazi”. > What about that public hatred against a Russian nationality expressed by Torvalds? Is it OK to use a nazi hatred for decisions in USA? Torvald’s expressed that it was irrational to expect him to backtrack and violate the rules on behalf of people connected to the Russian state while it is conducting aggression given the history involved, which is... well, beyond a stretch to call that a “nazi” attitude. But nice job trolling on behalf of Russia and calling everything hostile to the interests of the Putin regime “nazi”.
- akurilov 2y ago
- hht3 2y agoLinus Torvalds sold out and betrayed the ideals. Продажный пидор ты предал все идеалы!
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ram4jesus 2y agoJust another reason not to use Linux. I've gone to bat so many times for Linus but time and time again he proves that Benevolent Dictators for Life on tech projects are a bad idea for modern times.
- hht3 2y agoLinus Torvalds sold out and betrayed the ideals. Продажный уёбок!
- anonfordays 2y agoBanning Russian users (IP blacklisting) is a pastime for anyone that ran any kind of service in the late 90s and early 2000s. This isn't as controversial as it's made out to be.
- roda73 2y agoThis shows that Linux is/ will become just as bad as Windows or some other proprietary software. Linus really needs to step down. Open Source exists so it can be available to everyone, regardless to anything let alone silly politics. Linus is clearly a very xenophobic man (evident by his posts) and has no place to decide anymore.
- surfer2 2y ago[dead]
- supergirl 2y agojust the tip of the iceberg. if you think about it, maybe the kernel that runs everything in the world shouldn't be controlled by a single edgy dude.
- wikki_T 2y agoA complete betrayal of the spirit of open source and the Internet. It's sad that we are living in a world like this. People just pour hate and bias to others and disguise it with some high-sounding excuses. The bright future which envisioned by people in the 2000s will never come and we humanity will fxxk up eventually.
- tanglewire 2y agoToivo Tuomas Savolainen - does this rings a bell? WWII in Soumi is called "Continuation war" - does this rings a bell?
- surfer2 2y ago[dead]
- ferdous101 2y agoWhat about Israel bro?
- fazen 2y agoThere are no words for such a stupid move. But it is consistent with the decline of Western "civilization". Volunteers in freedom projects are not passports.