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OpenVMM – A New VMM for Windows and Linux, Written in Rust
- kosolam 2y agoA very interesting project. If I understand correctly it’s being used for Azure infrastructure.
- low_tech_love 2y ago[flagged]
- trumpeta 2y agoIt's meant to imply that it's as performant as, but safer than c/c++.
- bboozzoo 2y agoBut not necessarily less buggy or more useful than the counterparts (if there even are any).
- kstrauser 2y agoIt does imply there are likely to be different classes of bugs. If the thing compiles at all, someone's done the work to get the types right, and implement all the arms of match expressions, and written at least basic error handling. The errors are more likely to be high-level logic issues that you'd face in any code, not so much trivial implementation mistakes.
- sirwhinesalot 2y agoDue to Rust's safety guarantees there's a perception that software written in Rust is automatically safer than software written in its direct competitors C and C++. This is not necessarily true, you can write unsafe Rust code and you can write safe C++ code, but it does seem to hold in practice that the guardrails imposed by Rust help quite a bit in stopping devs from making really stupid mistakes. That would be the "thrustworthiness" implied by the use of Rust.
- bitexploder 2y agoAnd a VMM is going to require a lot of unsafe rust code. There are strategies to minimize it to make that surface easier to audit, but it is not a panacea for systems programming gremlins.
- monocasa 2y agoA paravisor actually doesn't really need that much.
- sirwhinesalot 2y agoNo question, just pointing out where the *perceived* trustworthiness comes from. If it helps for something like a VMM it's a whole other story. Marketing gimmick.
- nicce 2y agoIt is manager, not runner. Does it require that much unsafe?
- gpm 2y agoOut of 413,842 non-empty lines of rust code in the repository (including comments) there are 2006 instances of "unsafe", 255 of which are of the form "unsafe_" (definitely not unsafe blocks, mostly of the form #![forbid(unsafe_code)] which is an instruction to the linter to forbid unsafe blocks in the module) leaving slightly less than 1751 unsafe blocks. (Still counting comments, and type signature annotations on function pointers, and so on, but most of those 1751 will be actual unsafe blocks. A block can of course be multiple lines of code). I don't really know what a VMM consists of, so I'm mostly surprised that this project is half a million lines of code.
- estebank 2y agoFor this kind of analysis, https://github.com/geiger-rs/cargo-geiger https://github.com/geiger-rs/cargo-geiger comes in handy.
- pjmlp 2y agoYes we do, just look at the years following up the introduction of XYZ language, be it on BBS, Compuserve, Prodigy, Usenet, Dejanews, or whatever is the main communications channel of the day.
- Y_Y 2y agoDo you not remember ten years ago when this was a thing with Python? It's an effective evangelism tactic. Super annoying, but it "works" in some sense. I consider it like "YouTube face", I tolerate it because even good projects or creators have to play the game to some extent or get washed away in the crapflood.
- Klonoar 2y agoHN in particular has a long history of this kind of thing, e.g “Written in Ruby”. (Or if you’ve been around super long, “written in Lisp”.)
- tcfhgj 2y agoI doubt that a GitHub README is used for language evangelism. If at all, it's project promotion. Also, I don't find it annoying, but helpful, because I care - amongst other things - about the language of open source software projects.
- Y_Y 2y ago> I doubt that a GitHub README is used for language evangelism. Perhaps you should reconsider this. OpenVMM split up its docs and there isn't much in the actual README, but a few seconds investigation led me to https://github.com/microsoft/openvmm/blob/main/Guide/src/dev_guide/dev_tools.md#rust-based-tooling https://github.com/microsoft/openvmm/blob/main/Guide/src/dev... , for example. > Also, I don't find it annoying, but helpful, because I care - amongst other things - about the language of open source software projects. Come on, this is not even a good strawman. It's very easy to find out the language of you want to know, and it's possible to inform without evangelism.
- tcfhgj 2y ago> OpenVMM split up its docs and there isn't much in the actual README, but a few seconds investigation led me to https://github.com/microsoft/openvmm/blob/main/Guide/src/dev https://github.com/microsoft/openvmm/blob/main/Guide/src/dev... , for example. this is a reason to reconsider my statement why? > Come on, this is not even a good strawman. It's not a straw man at all. It's my opinion. > It's very easy to find out the language of you want to know, and it's possible to inform without evangelism. Indeed, but nothing makes it more straight forward than the language being mentioned in the HN News title
- doublerabbit 2y agoI wait for the day when someone adds "Written in COBOL" to their HN project title.
- garblegarble 2y agoTechnically somebody already has: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24370792 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24370792
- roetlich 2y agoAlso: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23189918 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23189918 Not literally "in Cobol" in the title, but almost. And in both cases the primary novelty is that it's written in Cobol.
- INTPenis 2y agoI don't think it's any secret that Rust is a very hyped up language, has been for 5 years already. I've been saying for years now that if Rust was a stock, I'd be investing. Meaning, if I was a young programmer I would probably take the time to learn Rust, because it's going to be in high demand.
- netbsdusers 2y agoIt's the in-thing at the moment so it certainly attracts attention. Make sure to claim to be "Blazing fast [Rocket Emoji]" in the README too for good measure.
- ordu 2y ago> It's not something I see often with other programming languages Lisp software also presented with "Lisp" in the title. Lisp programs are rarer, so you see "Lisp" in titles less frequently than "Rust" but I believe that any Lisp program proudly claims that it was written in Lisp.
- hypeatei 2y ago[flagged]
- felbane 2y ago[flagged]
- efitz 2y agoThis comment was written in plain text.
- hulitu 2y agoMaybe people are sick of promisses. It is like talking about your car and saying that it is made of titanium and copper and composite materials while not saying anything about actual features (mileage, safety equipment).
- low_tech_love 2y agoSorry for that, I never saw one before. Maybe I should’ve searched before posting. Interesting that my question has caused this kind of response.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- dijit 2y agoI agree, but if we tried to reason why: I would argue that it's because writing rust code that compiles is harder. We tend to ascribe significance to things that are percieved as difficult, back in the day for example a book was hugely important, so authors were revered, but now with the advent of easier access to printing presses an author is not similarly revered. Making small modules here and there, even if hard, is deemed less effort, and similarly gluing small modules together is deemed even less significant of an achievement, so what you're solving becomes much more important than how, since significance in the process is diminished. Since Rust is harder than C++ (making compiling software is easier, even if there's runtime errors after all) - we ascribe significance to the fact that it was used.
- tupolef 2y agoIt may seem proselite and overly highlighted, but personally I find it very practical. Whenever I review a tool, or look for an alternative, I always look at the state of the maintenance and the choice of programming language, mainly to eliminate, as much as possible, the many tools written in Javascript and Python when it is not suitable. I will not necessarily prefer a tool written in Rust, but at least it is rarely a flaw.
- oguz-ismail 2y agoIt's usually the only selling point.
- diego_moita 2y agoI take it as tribalism. Rust culture is a lot like socialism, libertarians, fundamentalist religions, vegans, etc. They see themselves apart from the "mainstream", as rebels, revolutionaries, etc. In their beginning, Java and Python were like that, too. Lua, Haskell and Kotlin also do the same. Golang is more discrete.
- monocasa 2y agoI feel like "written in Go" is the at least the second most likely language to be pimped in an hn title.
- rascul 2y ago> It's not something I see often with other programming languages Search HN stories for "written in", sort by date, and in the past couple weeks there are of course a number of "written in rust" but also c, python, ruby, go, c++, lisp, java, javascript, flutter, crystal, and react. Rust has the most instances currently but it's also common enough here with other languages. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=%22written%20in%22&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
- ericyd 2y agoThis is interesting and clearly a true claim, but anecdotally I feel like the combination of 1) lands on HN homepage and 2) includes "written in" in the title is heavily biased towards Rust. I don't know how to search for those two qualifiers to prove or disapprove my feelings though.
- keybored 2y agoI did a simpler count: the number of comments in this thread that either (without also talking about the content of the submission) (1) only talk about Rust (2) only talk about programming languages (3) talk about how programming language choice impacts the project or the quality of the software (or how it might not be a guarantee of those things) (4) talk about how a VMM being written in Rust/not being written in Rust is good (this last one is the closest to the submission topic but still not about the submission topic). 45/64.
- estebank 2y agoIt wasn't until this comment that made me realize that using "written in Rust" as rage click bait is such a "useful" strategy here, because it will inevitably attract plenty of comments about the mentioning of the language. Ironically, the people complaining end up increasing the post's rank by engaging more.
- steveklabnik 2y ago
- flanked-evergl 2y agoI saw this for go all the time a couple of years back.
- kreetx 2y agoIt seems as if the implementation detail is the feature. Can't the program stand for itself?
- acdha 2y agoIt is a useful feature. We’ve had tons and tons of bugs caused by C/C++ misfeatures which is both why Rust was invented and why users are looking for more stable alternatives after decades on the patch of the week treadmill. A tool like this is aimed at a technical audience who will see the appeal of a tool which is safer and easier to work on.
- kreetx 2y agoRight, but I suspect people would like to use it to run VMs rather than start developing it. If the indent is to invite developers who "know rust", then that is the wrong measuring bar (IMO, of course), as you'd want developers who are interested in hypervisors instead of a specific language.
- acdha 2y agoAs a user of VMs, I would value memory safety because hypervisor exploits are nasty and patching is higher risk.
- kreetx 2y agoNot disagreeing with you on the memory safety. It's just that the way "written in Rust" is used, it seems like a marketing gimmick to invite anyone who knows (or maybe wants to learn) Rust. Shows (IMO!) the weakness of the project rather than its seriousness.
- acdha 2y agoI haven’t observed people taking that as a learning opportunity as opposed to an expression of a modern version of an existing tool which emphasizes safety.
- osigurdson 2y ago"Written in Rust" is a brand that confers fast and safe. Like any brand, there is some truth to it but no rigorous guarantees. If Rust becomes more widely used that brand will likely start to fade.
- throwup238 2y agoIt also confers “cargo install” if it’s an app.
- justmarc 2y agoOne thing is for sure, it's going to help it be a more stable, robust piece of software, that's already a big deal.
- jeroenhd 2y agoI've also seen this done for C and modern C++. I believe it's done to suggest something (i.e. Rust is memory safe, C is usually fast, modern C++ is used to distinguish from the terrible old C++, Java runs on the JVM so it's relatively easy to use cross platform, Kotlin is for Java software that doesn't throw random null pointers every week, etc.) The same tokens are also used for stuff that is designed to run on bare metal/containers/kubernetes/"""serverless""".
- evanjrowley 2y agoPromotional PR tactics benefit programmers of non-mainstream languages by raising awareness, interest, the labor market, and hopefully professional jobs working on the particular technology.
- ravenstine 2y agoWhen something needs to be constantly emphasized, it makes me suspicious. The more I read "[...] in Rust", the less I will be surprised if Rust is considered harmful in another 5 to 10 years.
- mrweasel 2y agoThat was Go a 10 years ago, now it's Rust. Some people feel the need to talk loudly about their tools, which can be annoying, but also helps put it on the radar for the rest of us. Once we're aware of something we can assess it for ourselves and maybe we stick with it and maybe we go back to what we where doing before, or move on to the next thing. The Rust fans are pushing it a bit, I understand why they love the language, but I don't, so the insisting hammering on "written in Rust" can push me away from certain tools. In the end it will die down and the loudest will move on to the next language, once the Rust hype has been tapered out.
- tonyedgecombe 2y agoIn case anybody else wondered VMM = Virtual Machine Monitor.
- winternewt 2y agoI read it as Virtual Memory Manager and wondered how the heck they pulled one off that works for both Windows and Linux.
- foundry27 2y agoIt never even occurred to me that they could be talking about something other than the virtual memory manager. I was hyped to see if there was some new architecture being applied for cross-OS compatibility, novel memory objects, techniques to reduce fragmentation, stuff like that. Now I’m just sad.
- alias_neo 2y agoI knew what it stood for, but a pet peeve of mine in any form of engineering documentation (or frankly any technical documentation in any field) is not spelling out acronyms/initialisms on their first use; it was drilled into me in my degree; always spell out the first time you use a term on the assumption that the reader doesn't already know what any of it stands for. I both expect and don't expect this from Microsoft, but it makes me irrationally annoyed and I'm already feeling adversarial when reading something that does this in the first sentence no less.
- zokier 2y agoHow does this relate/compare to CloudHypervisor, another Rust based VMM that has been around for couple of years https://github.com/cloud-hypervisor/cloud-hypervisor https://github.com/cloud-hypervisor/cloud-hypervisor
- pjmlp 2y agoThis one is written by Microsoft employees and used on Azure.
- robjwells 2y agoNote this “disclaimer” in the guide: > In recent years, development efforts in the OpenVMM project have primarily focused on OpenHCL (AKA: OpenVMM as a paravisor). > As a result, not a lot of "polish" has gone into making the experience of running OpenVMM in traditional host contexts particularly "pleasant". > This lack of polish manifests in several ways, including but not limited to: […] > • No API or feature-set stability guarantees whatsoever. https://github.com/microsoft/openvmm/blob/main/Guide/src/user_guide/openvmm.md#disclaimer https://github.com/microsoft/openvmm/blob/main/Guide/src/use...
- solarkraft 2y agoPlus, for running as a paravisor: > OpenHCL currently relies on Hyper-V's implementation of Virtual Trust Levels (VTLs) to implement the security boundaries necessary
- nolist_policy 2y agoOpenHCL is much more interesting than OpenVMM: Tl;Dr: Run the VM with only modern paravirtualized devices, then run OpenHCL inside the VM in ring -1 to emulate legacy devices and the guest os in ring 0 as usual. This is more secure, as the host only exposes paravirtualized devices with reduced attack surface to the guest. While still allowing to run legacy os.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- globalnode 2y ago[flagged]
- rwmj 2y agoSlides from Linux Plumbers talk about OpenHCL: https://lpc.events/event/18/contributions/1956/attachments/1642/3391/linux%20plumbers%20bof.pdf https://lpc.events/event/18/contributions/1956/attachments/1...
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ericyd 2y agoThank God this VMM is written in Rust, otherwise I would be very skeptical. I don't care about features or purpose or technical advantages, give me Rust or give me death.
- jeroenhd 2y agoWhen it comes to low-level, security sensitive software like this, I actually do value the software being written in a relatively safe language. Could Rust, could be C# for all I care.
- sitkack 2y agoRust's safety properties are vastly better than C#, memory safety is the barrier to entry.
- hulitu 2y ago(i've heard) unless you use unsafe. /s
- hulitu 2y ago> When it comes to low-level, security sensitive software like this, I actually do value the software being written in a relatively safe language. When it comes to low-level, security sensitive software like this, I actually do value the software being tested extensively. Bugs are bugs even if they are written in C, Rust, Ada, Elixir, Lisp or whatever language you like.
- touisteur 2y agoNext level of this thread is with formal proof (e.g. SPARK). Left to the reader to complete the paragraph.
- mcflubbins 2y agoFor real, I find it so odd to tack on "written in Rust" to every new project that's announced that uses Rust. (As someone who uses Rust in their day job)
- AlfredBarnes 2y agoRust was something i thought was a cute little language years ago, much like i thought python was. I didn't pay attention for like 2 years and it feels likes it's everywhere and everything. Time to learn.
- Vogtinator 2y agoCargo.lock has 8750 lines. Is that normal for something like this? For comparison, QEMU basically just needs glibc, glib and zlib for basic functionality.
- orangeboats 2y agoLooking at Cargo.toml, a great deal of the project's dependencies are internal dependencies. Those are located in the same repo, and the separation is only there to help keep the compile times manageable by allowing parallel compilation. It's very rare to see so many internal dependencies in one project, but the concept itself is well explored. But besides that, it's just the project making use of the Rust ecosystem instead of rolling everything by themselves. From what I can see most of these external dependencies are already established in the ecosystem (some crates I am not sure since I've never used them, but anyhow, http, hyper etc. are among the most popular crates).
- dicytea 2y ago> the separation is only there to help keep the compile times manageable I don't think that's the reason, at least not the only reason. Workspaces is just a nice and modular way to organize a big project and separate concerns.
- pornel 2y agoCargo.lock is not ideal for this. It needs to be portable, and cover all kinds of builds and test runs, so it contains a superset of all dependencies for all platforms (recursively), as well as development-only dependencies, and everything needed for all optional features. Running `cargo tree -e normal` gives a more realistic subset of what is actually used, and `cargo tree -e normal --no-default-features` gives you the "basically just needs" subset. Another thing to keep in mind that Rust projects are very often split into many small packages (from the same authors, published as part of the same project). That isn't more code or more dependencies, but merely delivering code not as one monolith, but as modular components.
- geodel 2y agoCargo.toml is more appropriate to check dependencies and that has 642 lines. Some of them maybe just for testing or project setup. Remove them all I think it still would leave you with few hundred dependencies. And that does not seem excessive for a Rust project specially from Microsoft. I mention Microsoft specifically because their Go projects are similarly excessive in dependencies even though higher quality Go projects do have fewer dependencies.
- vrighter 2y agoit's written in rust is the only thing worth mentioning about it? congratulations on writing a thing that does something, i guess
- mrweasel 2y agoThe website states: "OpenVMM is a modular, cross-platform, general-purpose Virtual Machine Monitor (VMM), written in Rust." I'd leave out the "written in Rust", because who cares, but I think it's in the license terms for Rust that you need to include that in when communication your project. The modular and cross-platform is much more interesting that the implementation language, and much more relevant for the majority of the users. I'd focus on that if I wrote the documentation and marketing material. One excuse I'd make is that the link is to the Github repository, where it's perhaps more relevant that you're informed that you'll be looking at Rust code.
- kayo_20211030 2y agoIs that true? That the license requires the addition of "written in Rust" to announcements? I looked and couldn't find the requirement. But, agree generally with your points.
- radiowave 2y agoI think that might have been a joke.
- Ar-Curunir 2y agoThat is a joke.
- gpm 2y agoIt was a joke, rust is under a normal very permissive set of open source licenses (MIT or Apache2 at the users option)
- kayo_20211030 2y agoMy bad. Face palm.
- Dowwie 2y agoA New Virtual Machine Monitor for Windows and Linux that happens to be written in Rust
- hollerith 2y agoVMM == Virtual Machine Monitor, "such as Hyper-V, QEMU, VirtualBox".
- hulitu 2y ago> VMM == Virtual Machine Monitor, "such as Hyper-V, QEMU, VirtualBox". So, can it run Windows 95 ?
- efitz 2y agoHalf the user guide is empty. I want to understand what communication channel(s) it has from guest to host. It's not clear from the cut-and-paste support described in the VNC section of the manual, how this works and what other functionality might be supported.
- _0xdd 2y agoNice! Would be pretty cool if this supported bhyve on FreeBSD.